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][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 06:42
It says under the description for chaos armor that he can wear chaos armor. Would this include the other armors that are described as chaos armor?

decker_cky
30-03-2008, 07:34
Nope. Just the individual magic item chaos armour.

][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 08:00
What are you basing that on?

Falkman
30-03-2008, 09:36
The fact that it is the magic item Chaos armour that states it can be worn by Bray shamans, which the other magical chaos armours do not?

][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 10:01
The other magic chaos armors are from the HoC book. Items that can be swapped between the different chaos codexes. When It says he can use chaos armor in the armor's description, and the other armors say 'counts as chaos armor' or 'is chaos armor' it kinda makes sense that he could wear them as well doesnt it? I know how convoluted some people's sense of what is right and wrong rulewise in warhammer is, but this is an apple is a apple is a apple arguement here, right?

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 10:19
Why ask the question if you don't want to listen to the answers?

The armour in the HoC book says it counts as chaos armour as the HoC book was a 6th ed book where wizards could not cast spells while wearing armour.
Chaos armour has a special rule that allows wizards to cast spells while wearing it (note that this is no longer required in 7th ed) so to stop people from calming that you could not cast spells anymore if your wizard swapped the chaos armour he came with for some magic armour, they all have the line saying that they count as chaos armour.
It counts as a mundane piece of equipment from the HoC book not a completely separate magic item from a different book.

Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent.
As a brayshaman can't take the mundane version of chaos armour he can not wear any magic armour, except for the BoC magical item chaos armour that has specifically worded rules saying that a brayshaman may take it.

Kris

Falkman
30-03-2008, 10:27
Kris hits it right on the spot.

][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 11:03
Why ask the question if you don't want to listen to the answers?

Um, cause your the first to even try to answer.

The armour in the HoC book says it counts as chaos armour as the HoC book was a 6th ed book where wizards could not cast spells while wearing armour.

BoC is also a 6th edition book.

Chaos armour has a special rule that allows wizards to cast spells while wearing it (note that this is no longer required in 7th ed) so to stop people from claiming that you could not cast spells anymore if your wizard swapped the chaos armour he came with for some magic armour, they all have the line saying that they count as chaos armour.

Arguementably also to define what is or is not chaos armor.

It counts as a mundane piece of equipment from the HoC book not a completely separate magic item from a different book.

A 'magic item' which has the exact same qualities as a regular suit of chaos armor?

Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent.

I'm kinda arguing that the chaos armor listed in the magic section is in fact the mundane one, just placed there so it can be bought by characters.

As a brayshaman can't take the mundane version of chaos armour he can not wear any magic armour, except for the BoC magical item chaos armour that has specifically worded rules saying that a brayshaman may take it.

He can take Chaos Armor it says so.


Kris

I actually do see the point your making, but it seems like there is confusion in the translation. As I implied before if it looks like and apple and tastes like an apple, chances are its an apple. I wonder if there is errata on this.

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 11:26
But it does not look like an apple.

'Chaos armour' the magic item is not chaos armour from the HoC book.

If your bray shaman was wearing his 'Chaos armour' and was hit by the toomkings weapon 'Blade of Setep' (No saves from normal armour. Magic armour absorbs one hit then shatters) what would happen?

It would absorb one hit then shatter as it is magic armour.

Now the chaos armour in the HoC book hit by the 'Blade of Setep' would just be negated as it is mundane armour.

This proves that they are two very different things.

Again the magic armour in the HoC book states that is is chaos armour so that you know that it provides a 4+ armour save and that wizards can cast spells while wearing it.

If the Bray Shaman had an entry in his rules saying that he may wear chaos armour then yes he could take whatever armour you wanted but he does not.
The rule that lets him wear 'Chaos armour' is in the 'Chaos armour' entry for that specific magic item.

I say again why ask a question if you do not want to listen to the answers?

Kris

Festus
30-03-2008, 11:30
Hi

I wonder -
Is it possible that whishful thinking is the key to the question here?
If so, see my sig ... :) (thanks, T10)

The answer is simple: A Bray shaman may wear the Magic Item called Chaos Armour from the BoC book. The Magic Items from the HoC book count as Chaos armour and not as Chaos Armour, ie. they provide a 4+ save generally and may not be worn by Bray shamen.

A Wargor of Tzeentch is a very different kettle of fish, though ;)

Festus

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 11:41
A Wargor of Tzeentch is a very different kettle of fish, though ;)

Don't go there lol, you will only encourage him.:p

The reason a Wargor of Tzeentch may wear any of the magic armours including the magical 'Chaos armour' is because he has the option of taking mundane armour in his army list entry. i.e. light armour or heavy armour.

It is worth noting that he does not have the option of taking the mundane chaos armour.

Kris

][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 12:03
Ah well I guess I'll have to wait for the BoC to be released, and hopefully this time more than one shamman can have a set of armor.

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 12:07
If you are that worried about armour there is the tzeentch route that has been sugested but it does rack up the points.

Kris

][nquist0r
30-03-2008, 12:32
lol nah, that would kinda screw over my 4+ save for the minotaurs.

Ganymede
30-03-2008, 16:04
This question was dealt with a while back on this board and no consensus was arrived at.

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 16:16
Ganymede....no,just no.
Thats utter rubbish.

If by no concensus you mean 1 or 2 people were pointless arguing that all the hoardes of chaos magical armour's are beasts of chaos only items then yes, no concensus was arrived at.

He can wear the shaman only beasts of chaos chaos armour in the beasts of chaos book.
That is all.

Festus
30-03-2008, 16:17
Hi

Ganymede -
IIRC you were about the only one insisting that the HoC Chaos armours of the magic variety could be freely given to Bray Shamen. Maybe I misremember, but you drew out the discussion in this thread way beyond the 100 replies, too...

That at least is how I remember it. :eek:

Festus

Ganymede
30-03-2008, 16:18
That's cool, we all misremember stuff occasionally.



If by no concensus you mean 1 or 2 people were pointless arguing that all the hoardes of chaos magical armour's are beasts of chaos only items then yes, no concensus was arrived at.


Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to, some pointless people claiming that hordes of chaos characters cound not take magic chaos armor.

On an unrelated note, strawmen arguments little more than carefully constructed insults.

Festus
30-03-2008, 16:28
Hi

It seems you are the one to misremember, dear friend.
Maybe you want to refresh your memory:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102860&highlight=bray

And that is why Eldanar wrote:

This thread has reached the ridiculous stage.

Thread Closed.

Warseer Inquisition
Festus

Arguleon-veq
30-03-2008, 16:41
'Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent'

Really? So my Empire Wizard cant take magical armour except Tarnus? but he has no weapon options either but Im sure he can buy a magical weapon.

Griefbringer
30-03-2008, 16:53
'Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent'

Really? So my Empire Wizard cant take magical armour except Tarnus? but he has no weapon options either but Im sure he can buy a magical weapon.

The restriction mentioned only applies to armour and shields, not to weapons.

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 16:54
Only magical armour has the restriction of requiring you to need to be elligible to take a mundane version of an item, to be able to take the magical version.
Page 121

Festus
30-03-2008, 17:01
Hi

'Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent'

Really? So my Empire Wizard cant take magical armour except Tarnus? but he has no weapon options either but Im sure he can buy a magical weapon.
Good to see you read the rulebook ;)

Festus

Arguleon-veq
30-03-2008, 17:16
Ah, good. My Wizard Lord has the Armour of Tarnus, I always thought Wizards just still couldnt take armour full stop unless mentioned in the armour entry. Which is pretty much still the case with very few Wizards having armour options I guess.

Thanks for the info.

With Vampire Counts, would the fact that you can take the Martial Powers that give you some armour, actually be classed as a normal armour option? to allow them to take magical armour, or would you have to actually take that Power to be able to take Magical Armour?

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 17:32
Not needed, right above the magical armour section (feel free to kick yourself for not reading this...I know I did!) it states that they are allowed to wear magical armour even though they dont have the option for the mundane option.

One of these hiding in plain sight rules that we all miss and then laugh about later ^_^

Arguleon-veq
30-03-2008, 17:36
Not needed, right above the magical armour section (feel free to kick yourself for not reading this...I know I did!) it states that they are allowed to wear magical armour even though they dont have the option for the mundane option.

One of these hiding in plain sight rules that we all miss and then laugh about later ^_^

Hahaha, damn. Thanks for that. Me and my mate were both looking at it and didnt even see it lol.

Ganymede
30-03-2008, 20:30
Hi

It seems you are the one to misremember, dear friend.
Maybe you want to refresh your memory:

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102860&highlight=bray

And that is why Eldanar wrote:

Festus

Eldanar closed the thread because three of the participants were given a temporary ban for flaming within it.

I just took another look and I still don't see any sort of consensus. The majority of the thread consists of comments lakin to "I feel the rule works this way, and I know it because of that certain feeling deep In my heart. Evidence? Why would I need evidence when my perspective feels right?"

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 20:55
Feel free to restate your argument as to why a bray shaman can wear any of the hoardes of chaos suits of magical armour.

Chaos Armour(beasts of chaos)
is not
Chaos armour(hoardes of chaos)

Therefore none of the hoardes of chaos magic armours follow the rules for the beasts of chaos magical armours, so they may not be worn by a bray shaman.

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 20:57
'Now to be allowed to take a magical version of something you have to be able to take its mundane equivalent'

Really? So my Empire Wizard cant take magical armour except Tarnus? but he has no weapon options either but Im sure he can buy a magical weapon.

He also comes equipped with a hand weapon:D
At least that is the reason I would give (as well as the actual rules:p)

Kris

Lorcryst
30-03-2008, 21:05
He also comes equipped with a hand weapon:D
At least that is the reason I would give (as well as the actual rules:p)

Kris


That was my reasonning as well, in 7th ed you need to be able to select a mundane version of an item to be able to select a magical version of that item, and since every character has a "built-in" hand weapon, every character can take a magic weapon ...

That'as as RAW as I can think, with a teeny bit of logic thrown in ...

Festus
30-03-2008, 21:12
Hi

... in 7th ed you need to be able to select a mundane version of an item to be able to select a magical version of that item ...
No!
No!
And NO! again.

This is only the rule for Magic Armour.

Please guys, reread the BRB, most notably p.121! You may buy one of each category for a character. Only Arcane Items may only be bought by spellcasters and Armour has some special restrictions on it.

Every character may buy a magic weapon or an enchanted item (Of course there are exceptions to this, but they are character type specific, like Slann or Doombull - who have restricted access to certain categories.)

Festus

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 21:19
Thats why I added in the 'as well as the actual rules' part :)

Don't be angry lol.

Kris

Lorcryst
30-03-2008, 21:23
Oh my, I should have re-read my BRB before posting ...

You're right Festus, I mixed two editions of the game there, the only restrictions I can see p.121 are "one of each categories", "only Wizards can have Arcane items" and a rather long paragraph about armours and shields (in short, if you cannot take a mundane shield, you cannot take a magical shield, same thing with armours, and both say "unless differently specified in the Army Book").

Ganymede
30-03-2008, 21:26
Feel free to restate your argument as to why a bray shaman can wear any of the hoardes of chaos suits of magical armour.

Chaos Armour(beasts of chaos)
is not
Chaos armour(hoardes of chaos)

Therefore none of the hoardes of chaos magic armours follow the rules for the beasts of chaos magical armours, so they may not be worn by a bray shaman.

Revolving an argument around the capitalization of A is an incredibly specious ploy. Such an argument would absolutely require a sense of consistency with capitalization conventions among magical and mundane items. Unfortunately, there is absolutely no such consistency. Any meaning attributed to the capitalization or lack thereof is simply created in your own mind.

A simple perusal of the Skaven armybook reveals a horrible lack of consistent capitalization conventions.

Scroll is in the name of the magic item, Warp Scroll, it is not capitalized in the body text.

Bands is in the name of the magic item, Bands of Power, it is not capitalized in the body text.

Amulet is in the name of the magic item, Warpstone Amulet, it is capitalized in the body text.

Pendant is in the name of the magic item, Foul Pendant, it is not capitalized in the body text.

Eye is in the name of the magic item, Eye of the Horned Rat, it is capitalized in the body text.

Warpstone Tokens, both a magical and mundane item at different times, have only the the first word capitalized in their body text. And yet, their name is capitalised in their heading under the magic item section.

With such in mind, there is no reasonable way to attribute any meaning to the capitalization of Armor, let alone construct a rules argument from it.

kris.sherriff
30-03-2008, 21:36
So what about my perfectly legitimate arguments that do not revolve around capitalization?

Kris

Ganymede
31-03-2008, 00:35
here's my take on what you wrote. Let me know if I am missing something.



'Chaos armour' the magic item is not chaos armour from the HoC book.

If your bray shaman was wearing his 'Chaos armour' and was hit by the toomkings weapon 'Blade of Setep' (No saves from normal armour. Magic armour absorbs one hit then shatters) what would happen?

It would absorb one hit then shatter as it is magic armour.

Now the chaos armour in the HoC book hit by the 'Blade of Setep' would just be negated as it is mundane armour.

This proves that they are two very different things.

This is correct, both suits of armor behave in slightly different ways on the battlefield. They are indeed different. On the other hand, I don't think this example sheds much light on the situation.



Again the magic armour in the HoC book states that is is chaos armour so that you know that it provides a 4+ armour save and that wizards can cast spells while wearing it.

Yeah, If you are building a hordes character, then you'll probably look up chaos armor in the hordes book. On the other hand, a person building a beast character would probably look up chaos armor in the beasts book.





If the Bray Shaman had an entry in his rules saying that he may wear chaos armour then yes he could take whatever armour you wanted but he does not. The rule that lets him wear 'Chaos armour' is in the 'Chaos armour' entry for that specific magic item.


I don't think this is a fair conclusion. We can't conclude things from what is not written, only by what is written.

theunwantedbeing
31-03-2008, 00:54
Magical item section of the beasts of chaos book.
Page 62

"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoardes of Chaos book within the limitations given there"

So you are entirely incorrect in saying that you use the rules for the beasts of chaos magical armour to define what the magical suits of chaos armour are in the hoardes of chaos book.

Ganymede
31-03-2008, 03:05
Magical item section of the beasts of chaos book.
Page 62

"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoardes of Chaos book within the limitations given there"

So you are entirely incorrect in saying that you use the rules for the beasts of chaos magical armour to define what the magical suits of chaos armour are in the hoardes of chaos book.

I'll bite. In what way does the Hordes book specifically limit Bray Shamen from taking the Armor of Damnation?

][nquist0r
31-03-2008, 03:23
I'll bite. In what way does the Hordes book specifically limit Bray Shamen from taking the Armor of Damnation?

See this is where I was confused too. I looked at the other list and saw the "Is chaos armor" description and concluded as I can take the beast chaos armor, then this armor totally available as well (its just magic chaos armor with different abilities...) I know people have stated that HoC is a 6th edition, but BoC is as well, and was written after the HoC. It was supposed to be backwards compatable, and to assume that the first book should have mentioned that "Bray Shaman can wear this chaos armor as well" before the BoC book came out is giving the nobs is GW WAAAAAY too much credit. Hell I was thankful for the mention that items could be swapped in the following books, nevermind the first.

TheDarkDaff
31-03-2008, 03:56
[nquist0r;2482533']See this is where I was confused too. I looked at the other list and saw the "Is chaos armor" description and concluded as I can take the beast chaos armor, then this armor totally available as well (its just magic chaos armor with different abilities...) I know people have stated that HoC is a 6th edition, but BoC is as well, and was written after the HoC. It was supposed to be backwards compatable, and to assume that the first book should have mentioned that "Bray Shaman can wear this chaos armor as well" before the BoC book came out is giving the nobs is GW WAAAAAY too much credit. Hell I was thankful for the mention that items could be swapped in the following books, nevermind the first.

I can't believe i'm going to post in this but here it goes.

The Chaos Books (Beasts and Hordes) are in essence a single book broken up into volumes ie when you speak about a Chaos Army you are refering to both books at the same time. "chaos armour" is a special mundane type of armour available to the Chaos Army (be they from the Hordes or Beasts book) if the individual units have the option to take it. Beasts of Chaos also have a magic item called "Chaos Armour" that has it's own (and entirely separate) rules in it's item entry.

So chaos armour from the Hordes book may be apples but that makes the Chaos Armour magic item from the Beasts book an orange. They are both fruit (or armour in this case) but one refers to a self contained magic armour while the other is a mundane armour.

theunwantedbeing
31-03-2008, 03:57
From the direwolf FAQ

Q. Can Great Bray-Shamans or Bray-Shamans wear magic armour?

A. Generally no, as characters without the option to wear mundane
armour may not wear magical armour, however there is one exception.
The magic item 'Chaos Armour' in the Beasts of Chaos book states
"May be given to a Bray-Shaman". Note that other suits of armour
from the Hordes of Chaos book do not so state, thus they may not
be taken by a Bray-Shaman
S. Beasts of Chaos Army Book pages 52,53,63

Chicago Slim
31-03-2008, 03:58
Edition is irrelevant, since there's no "patches" other than the official FAQs. What was written in current army books is what you play with (modulo FAQs), whether it was written before 7th or after 7th.

So, under current rules, Bray Shamen cannot wear armor, unless that piece of armor says otherwise. By my reading, there's only one such piece of armor available.

Ganymede, I'm convinced that you're not going to change your mind about this one, so don't sweat it on my account: you play how you like, and if you and I ever end up across a table from one another, and you've put Armour of Damnation on your Bray Shaman or something like that, I'll shrug, note that I play it differently but don't much care, so let's move on and play the game.


My real point here was to emphasize that bit about how it doesn't matter WHEN an army book was written, you play by what the army book says in it, modified only by the FAQ. My secondary point is that NOBODY is likely to convince Ganymede not change his mind on this one-- now, don't let me structure your experience, but I ask you, hasn't there been enough pain and suffering brought into the world by trying to convince Ganymede to change his mind on this, already?

Mercules
31-03-2008, 04:29
I'll bite. In what way does the Hordes book specifically limit Bray Shamen from taking the Armor of Damnation?

The fact that the BRB states that characters that do not have a Mundane Armor listed or an option to wear it can not take Magical Armor as a choice and none of the Hordes books state any thing to the effect that Bray Shamen can, including under the descriptions of magical armors? The armor listed in the BoC book however, does state this allowing them to take that choice and no other BoC armor choice.

Ganymede
31-03-2008, 04:39
The fact that the BRB states that characters that do not have a Mundane Armor listed or an option to wear it can not take Magical Armor as a choice and none of the Hordes books state any thing to the effect that Bray Shamen can, including under the descriptions of magical armors? The armor listed in the BoC book however, does state this allowing them to take that choice and no other BoC armor choice.

I understand where you are comming from, but I do not think the inability to take mundane armor is an issue here.

This is my take on the situation.

Premise 1 - Bray Shamen are allowed to take chaos armor due to a special exception.

Premise 2 - The Armor of Damnation is/counts as chaos armor.

Conclusion - Bray Shamen are allowed to take the Armor of Damantion.




NOBODY is likely to convince Ganymede not change his mind on this one-- now, don't let me structure your experience, but I ask you, hasn't there been enough pain and suffering brought into the world by trying to convince Ganymede to change his mind on this, already?

I am just as receptive to a reasoned argument as the next person, I just haven't seen a whole lot of reasoned arguments yet.

Lorcryst
31-03-2008, 05:11
I understand where you are comming from, but I do not think the inability to take mundane armor is an issue here.

This is my take on the situation.

Premise 1 - Bray Shamen are allowed to take chaos armor due to a special exception.

Premise 2 - The Armor of Damnation is/counts as chaos armor.

Conclusion - Bray Shamen are allowed to take the Armor of Damantion.




I am just as receptive to a reasoned argument as the next person, I just haven't seen a whole lot of reasoned arguments yet.


And that's where you're wrong, your "Premise 1" isn't true, Bray Shamen are allowed to take the magic item Chaos Armour, because it specifically states so in that particular item description, but they don't have a "mundane" armour option (apart from the Braystaff used defensively), so they cannot take any other form of magical armour, unless those specific pieces of equipment also have something in their description allowing them to be taken by a Bray Shaman.

The specific exception on the magic item Chaos Armour doesn't translate to other magic items, nor to the mundane version present in the HoC book.

Believe me, those rules are stomping my nutz too (yup, Chaos player here, with 7K of mixed Mortals/Beasts/Daemons, and pissed about the rumours of army splitting, but that's for another thread), but they still are the rules that we all agreed to play by when we decided to play GW's games.

kris.sherriff
31-03-2008, 05:13
How can you accept that they are different in how they react in some situations and the continue to push your theory that they are one and the same nonsense?

That does not seem like a reasoned argument to me?
That seems like a giant easter egg hunt.

Surely the fact that other people who believed it was played the way you do have been convinced of the error of there ways by all the reasoned arguments given in this and the earlier threads must show that all our reasoning makes sense.

I have yet to see your reasoning convince anyone, other than yourself that is.

The most telling parts of each argument for me is that every argument that disagrees with what you are saying has been backed up with mention of one rule or another from either the army books of the BRB.
You argument on the other hand is based on this notion that you have that if you are building a beast character you are somehow allowed to use the specific rules for one magic item and add them in to the rules for another group of items in a completely different book, I have yet to see any evidence or reasoned argument as to why this would be the case.


Kris

][nquist0r
31-03-2008, 05:27
LOL, guys I am just a player who hasnt played Warhammer since 5th edition. I didnt know this was such a hot topic and I wasnt trying to go on an "easter egg hunt" or anything. I read the description under the "Magic Chaos Armor"and seems how the other Chaos Armor is also "Magic Chaos Armor" that is listed as " is Chaos Armor" I figured I could pick and choose. Like I said I already know the Shaman can take "Magic Chaos Armor" I just dont really see the difference between the different "Magic Chaos Armors."

kris.sherriff
31-03-2008, 05:37
][nquist0r
Look at it this way and it may make a little more sense.

They all follow the rules for chaos armor in the HoC book but as they are magic items the each have extra rules that apply only to them.
For example Armour of damnation makes the opponent reroll hits.
Chaos armours extra rule is that it specifically say it may be taken by a bray shaman

A basic way of looking at it but still one that could shed some light on it for you?

Kris

][nquist0r
31-03-2008, 05:49
Does the Chaos Armor in the BoC not also follow all the rules for chaos armor in the HoC?

][nquist0r
31-03-2008, 05:54
lol now I'm just screwing with you. Still there should be errata for this. Any Beastman player that reads the description "The Crimson Armor is a suit of Chaos Armor" can easily say, "wow its Chaos Armor too, I can use it!" Nowhere does it say that the "Crimson armor of Dargan is a suit of mundane chaos armor" because lets face it, it really isnt is it?

kris.sherriff
31-03-2008, 07:46
Lol, no it isn't but it grants a 4+ armour save and allows wizards to cast spells etc etc.
Chaos armour from the BoC book follows the rules in the HoC book in that it has the same rules except where they are different, as in it can be worn by bray shamans. :p

Kris

Mercules
31-03-2008, 13:33
I understand where you are comming from, but I do not think the inability to take mundane armor is an issue here.

This is my take on the situation.

Premise 1 - Bray Shamen are allowed to take chaos armor due to a special exception.

Premise 2 - The Armor of Damnation is/counts as chaos armor.

Conclusion - Bray Shamen are allowed to take the Armor of Damantion.




I am just as receptive to a reasoned argument as the next person, I just haven't seen a whole lot of reasoned arguments yet.

A valid logic statement. So now we go on to checking to see if the premises are true or not. We check Premise 1 and find it false. Argument is therefore false.

Premise #1 is false because it is an exception that is written on ONE piece of armor. It is not an exception written in the rules for Bray Shaman. That exception only affect on piece of armor. Had it been written in the Bray Shaman rules instead of the BoC Chaos Armor rules then I would agree with you and your Premise would be true. The exception is not for Bray Shamen to wear ALL Chaos Armor, it is for this magical armor called Chaos Armor to be worn by Bray Shaman.

Urgat
31-03-2008, 13:52
0.o Ok, am I the only one to wonder why the heck they had to give two different items the same name? Couldn't they call the beastmen chaos armour magic item... dunno, something less ambiguous like Chaos Beast Armour, Ebonite Plate or Smelly Goatskin of Doom?
This is silly.

It is also silly how often I post that a rule is silly >>

Ganymede
31-03-2008, 14:50
A valid logic statement. So now we go on to checking to see if the premises are true or not. We check Premise 1 and find it false. Argument is therefore false.

Premise #1 is false because it is an exception that is written on ONE piece of armor. It is not an exception written in the rules for Bray Shaman. That exception only affect on piece of armor. Had it been written in the Bray Shaman rules instead of the BoC Chaos Armor rules then I would agree with you and your Premise would be true. The exception is not for Bray Shamen to wear ALL Chaos Armor, it is for this magical armor called Chaos Armor to be worn by Bray Shaman.

Premise one is not false. Bray shamen can indeed wear chaos armor due to a specific exception in the chaos armor entry. This is undebatable and directly verifiable in the beasts of chaos rulebook.


The rest of your argument here is largely immaterial and is based around what the author DIDN'T write as opposed to what the author did write (what my argument is based on). You need to back your argument up with actual quotes and rules, not on interpretations of the absences of rules.


The most telling parts of each argument for me is that every argument that disagrees with what you are saying has been backed up with mention of one rule or another from either the army books of the BRB.
You argument on the other hand is based on this notion that you have that if you are building a beast character you are somehow allowed to use the specific rules for one magic item and add them in to the rules for another group of items in a completely different book, I have yet to see any evidence or reasoned argument as to why this would be the case.

Not really.

The "armor doesn't equal Armor" argument is based around a false assumption of capitalization consistency.

The "no mundane option=no magical option" argument is off base because it is irrelevent in this example. The entire situation is an exception to this general rule.


"You argument on the other hand is based on this notion that you have that if you are building a beast character you are somehow allowed to use the specific rules for one magic item and add them in to the rules for another group of items in a completely different book, I have yet to see any evidence or reasoned argument as to why this would be the case."

We can do this because the beast book tells us we can do it.


"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoardes of Chaos book within the limitations given there"

That's it. Plain and simple. No debate necessary. All we do when building a model from the beasts book is to reference the Hordes of Chaos item list and act as if it was within the beast of chaos book itself ( and ensuring that we respect limitations such as 'models on foot only' and 'khorne only') They essentially treat the Hordes list as an extension of the Beasts list. The beast book does not tell us to reference the entirety of the hordes book, only the Items. As the beast rules do not allow us to reference the hordes of chaos book for anything other than magical items (in this context), we use the definition of chaos armor in the beast book. Luckily, the two definitions are almost identical.

EvC
31-03-2008, 14:58
The Chaos Armour magic item in the Beasts of Chaos book and the Chaos armour equipment in the Hordes of Chaos book are different things. You cannot cast Vaul's Unmaking or Law of Gold on Hordes Chaos armour, for example. Thus, with it established that they are not considered the same (yet share many characteristic, undeniably), we can call one of them [1- Beasts] and one of them [2-Hordes].

Premise 1 - Bray Shamen are allowed to take [1] due to a special exception.

Premise 2 - The Armor of Damnation is/counts as [2].

Premise 3 - You can't take magic armour unless you can take normal armour, or have a special exception.

Conclusion - Bray Shamen are not allowed to take [2], as they have no option for mundane armour.

Ganymede
31-03-2008, 15:30
The Chaos Armour magic item in the Beasts of Chaos book and the Chaos armour equipment in the Hordes of Chaos book are different things. You cannot cast Vaul's Unmaking or Law of Gold on Hordes Chaos armour, for example. Thus, with it established that they are not considered the same (yet share many characteristic, undeniably), we can call one of them [1- Beasts] and one of them [2-Hordes].


No one has ever claimed that the two sets of armor are exactly the same.

On the other hand, the two sets of armor are the same in the single way that counts; They are both chaos armor. They share the very specific characteristic in that they are both suits of chaos armor.

It is in this notion that your premises fall flat.

The Armor of Damnation is chaos armor, that much is indisputable.
The chaos armor in the beast book is also chaos armor.
Chaos armor can be worn by bray shamen despite the rules in the BRB normally forbidding it.

Mercules
31-03-2008, 15:31
The rest of your argument here is largely immaterial and is based around what the author DIDN'T write as opposed to what the author did write (what my argument is based on). You need to back your argument up with actual quotes and rules, not on interpretations of the absences of rules.

BRB pg. 121

A character that is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour/helms(unless differently specified in the Army book).


BoC pg. 62

Note that all the rules for magic items presented on pages 152-153 of the Warhammer rulebook also apply to these magical items.

Special Note: Models from the Bests of Chaos book can also use items from the Hordes of Chaos book within the limitation given there.
BoC pg. 63

Chaos Armour
Beast of Chaos character only
May be given to a Bray-shaman


So... I look through these sources, substituting the current Magic Items section from the 7th edition Base book instead of 6th Edition.

It distinctly tells me that a character not allowed to wear armor can not be given magical Armour/Helms unless the army book states so. I check the BoC army book and indeed, I can't choose any armor or helms in there except the special armor Chaos Armor which specifies Bray-Shaman can wear it.

I see that I can also use items from the HoC book but that I must abide by the rules in the BRB and use them as the limitation GIVEN THERE. I check the HoC book. There are no exceptions that say that wizards can wear any of those magic armours or that Bray-shaman specifically can.

Now, each model can only select one item from each category. My Bray-shaman can pick the Chaos Armour from the BoC armor list. If he does so he is wearing magical armor and can take no other armor. This still doesn't confer the ability to wear Mundane Armor which is needed to take any of the armors in the HoC book as none of those armors and no where in that book does it state that Bray-shaman can wear mundane armor.

The prerequisite for magical armor is Mundane Armor or a specific rule that states otherwise. That specific rule only exists on a particular armor and if they are wearing that armor, thus enacting that rule, then they can't wear any other armor.

EvC
31-03-2008, 16:09
No one has ever claimed that the two sets of armor are exactly the same.

On the other hand, the two sets of armor are the same in the single way that counts; They are both chaos armor. They share the very specific characteristic in that they are both suits of chaos armor.

It is in this notion that your premises fall flat.

The Armor of Damnation is chaos armor, that much is indisputable.
The chaos armor in the beast book is also chaos armor.
Chaos armor can be worn by bray shamen despite the rules in the BRB normally forbidding it.

Interesting, you agree they are both suits of Chaos Armour, and that they are different. So Chaos Armour =/= Chaos armour (but it is a type of it).
Armour of Damnation is a specific set of Chaos armour.
Chaos Armour in the BoC book also is a specific set of Chaos armour. We know it's specific and unique because only one model can wear it.
A Beastmen Shaman is given a specific allowance to wear the Chaos armour in the Beasts of Chaos book. This is not a general allowance to wear all types of Chaos armour, but an allowance only for the specific suit of armour we know as Chaos Armour in the BoC book.

kris.sherriff
31-03-2008, 18:17
I hope I am getting this right if not please correct me but you are saying that this statement
"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoards of Chaos book within the limitations given there"
means that a bray shaman can wear any magic armour that counts as chaos armour?

Have you actually read that statement?

I don't mean to sound insulting but go on read it.

I will walk you through it if you like.
"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book" - So any character from the BoC, easy so far is it not.
"can also use items from the Hoards of Chaos book" - Again it is not to difficult, if you want to you can take items from the HoC book, you can even mix and have some on with items from both.
"within the limitations given there." - Now this is the bit that you seem to be glossing over.
There is no section in the HoC book that says Bray Shamans can take any magic armour.
This is a fact, nowhere in the HoC book does it say a Bray Shaman can wear armour.
Your comebacks to this is that is says in the BoC book that Bray Shamans can wear chaos armour (As I said I don't care how you spell it or how it is capitalized). This statement is not true.
Nowhere does it say "A Bray Shaman can wear chaos armour"
In the magic item section, in the magic armour section, the specific piece of magic armour that happens to share a name with something in a completely different book says "may be taken by a Bray Shaman"
Now how is that "within the limitations given there" (as in in the HoC book)
It isn't, is it?
It is in fact most expressly not "given there."
In that, it is somewhere else.

Now the, "but it's chaos armour" argument does not really cut it because as you yourself have admitted the entry's for chaos armour from both books are not the same. They react differently to situations in that one of them is magical and the other is mundane.
The one you are forced to look at due to the rule that you quoted (once more just to make sure it is clear to everyone)
"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoards of Chaos book within the limitations given there"
is the one from the Hoards of Chaos book.

So what item from the Hoards of Chaos book would you like to take?
Armour of Damnation?
OK well lets follow the correct logic for doing so.
Premise 1:Models from the BoC book - Bray Shaman - check
Premise 2:Can also use items from the HoC Book - Armour of Damnation - check
Premise 3:within the limitations given there - ???
once you give me a page reference from withing the HoC book that says a Bray Shaman can take this item I will concede the point.

Kris

P.S. So basicly what Mercules said but in a lot more words aparently.
Sorry Mercules I wrote this last night but didn't get chance to post it haveing done so I went back and read the stuff I missed and you have it covered. Oh well :)

yabbadabba
31-03-2008, 19:04
can we close this thread please? If it hits anywhere near 100, I don't know what I'll do.

This doesn't need an FAQ as it quite clearly states the intention in the book. No confusion.

The name is the same so as to lend some elitism to Chaos Warriors et al. What they wear like socks, others must take as a rare gift from the chaos gods (shame Chaos Warriors' Chaos Armour doesn't count as magical :().

The description makes this item even more special by specifically stating that only Beasts characters can take that item. A bit of luck as all mortal characters come with it as standard. Imagine the confusion amongst the RAW fanatics ... ..."So it doesn't say that I can't take it, so can I have 2 sets of Chaos Armour, as the army book supercedes the BRB ... ..." ad nauseum.

As a last point, it doesn't actually say that Bray Shamen can take Chaos Armour. It states "may be given to Bray Shaman". No mention of anything other than that magic item maybe taken by the Bray. Doesn't even mention Chaos Armour in the same sentence or paragraph.

Another case of "Just because it doesn't say that I can't, doesn't rule out that I can" -itis

][nquist0r
31-03-2008, 19:37
Ahhh that is a pretty big hole. I didnt pay attention to the wording "BoC characters only."That would difinitively exclude it from HoC characters and thus vice-versa I guess. I appreciate the effort guys, but people who have been reacting so emotionally need to relax. This is just a game. Kinda like playing GI Joe when we were 6 except less complictaed.

Festus
31-03-2008, 19:40
Hi

can we close this thread please? If it hits anywhere near 100, I don't know what I'll do.
Oh, I think, by now I find it funny to see history repeat itself - and it will always do so again...

... as long as Ganymede thinks what he thinks is right, which all others do not think :rolleyes:

Well, if you want to do it all over again, just open a new thread on the subject in a month or two and wait until Ganymede chimes in again :eyebrows: That is the merit of the search function, I guess :D

But I agree, can someone please close this travesty of a selfrepeating thread - it will soon enough resurface in another guise...

Festus

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 02:09
BRB pg. 121

A character that is not allowed to wear ordinary armour cannot be given magic armour/helms(unless differently specified in the Army book).

Stuff.



I've already explained to you time and time again, this entire argument is moot because of the fact that we are dealing with an exception to these general rules. I understand exactly how characters normally get access to magical armor. Unfortunately, this is not a normal situation. I do get your point though, so there is no reason for you to ever repeat it again in this thread.

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 02:13
Interesting, you agree they are both suits of Chaos Armour, and that they are different. So Chaos Armour =/= Chaos armour (but it is a type of it).

Chaos armor is chaos armor, they just happen to have different rules depending on the specific armybook you reference.


Chaos Armour in the BoC book also is a specific set of Chaos armour.

This is nothing more than a guess on your part, a assertion without any backup.




We know it's specific and unique because only one model can wear it.
A Beastmen Shaman is given a specific allowance to wear the Chaos armour in the Beasts of Chaos book. This is not a general allowance to wear all types of Chaos armour, but an allowance only for the specific suit of armour we know as Chaos Armour in the BoC book.

Yet again, this is not actually evidence. This is simply a rationalization of your position. You are explaining why your interpretation might make sense, not why it is right.

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 02:17
Stuff

"within the limitations given there." - Now this is the bit that you seem to be glossing over.

Stuff



There are absolutely no limitations given in the entries of the relevent magical items. None at all.

Some of the items state "models on foot only" some state "khorne marked models only". The armors in question have no specific limitations that would preclude bray shamen from taking them (the rulebook does limit certain models from taking armor, but this limitation is neatly lifted by the chaos armor entry in the beast book.)

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 02:25
[nquist0r;2484523']Ahhh that is a pretty big hole. I didnt pay attention to the wording "BoC characters only."That would difinitively exclude it from HoC characters and thus vice-versa I guess. I appreciate the effort guys, but people who have been reacting so emotionally need to relax. This is just a game. Kinda like playing GI Joe when we were 6 except less complictaed.

Remember, I am not saying the chaos armor in the Hordes book and the chaos armor in the beasts book are identical. Such is pretty much impossible due to their slightly different entries.

What I am saying is that both suits of armor are undisputably chaos armor; even if the two suits have different rules, there is no denying that they are both suits of chaos armor. Bray shamen can wear chaos armor, and if the suit in question is a suit of chaos armor, then the shamen can wear it.

In no way does this interpretation result in a silly scenario in which the armor in the hordes book becomes "Beasts of Chaos only." We know this because of the instructions given to us in the beast book. We are told to essentially treat the hordes of chaos item list as if it was in the beasts book. For the purpose of building beast characters, we are to reference the items from the hordes book and the rules in the beasts book.

It would be just as silly to build a dark elf with the ring of darkness but reference the rules from the ring of darkness in the skaven book as it would be to reference the rules for chaos armor in the hordes book for a beast character when there is a relevent entry right in the beast book.

Mercules
01-04-2008, 03:40
I've already explained to you time and time again, this entire argument is moot because of the fact that we are dealing with an exception to these general rules. I understand exactly how characters normally get access to magical armor. Unfortunately, this is not a normal situation. I do get your point though, so there is no reason for you to ever repeat it again in this thread.

Apparently you do not get the point as you sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting, "It works how I want not by the actual rules." was not the point. I did however get the point and will now drop out of this thread and never need see another post by yourself again. Have a nice day.

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 04:25
Apparently you do not get the point as you sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting, "It works how I want not by the actual rules." was not the point. I did however get the point and will now drop out of this thread and never need see another post by yourself again. Have a nice day.



The rules you descrbed are indeed how situations like this are normally resolved. Generally, a model with no option for mundane armor can not take any magical armor. My point is that this default situation does not apply here because we are dealing with a very deliberate and explicit exception.

Secondly, I could do without your implications that I am obtuse or delusional. Adults do not substitute discourse with insults.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-04-2008, 05:27
Remember, I am not saying the chaos armor in the Hordes book and the chaos armor in the beasts book are identical. Such is pretty much impossible due to their slightly different entries.

What I am saying is that both suits of armor are undisputably chaos armor; even if the two suits have different rules, there is no denying that they are both suits of chaos armor. Bray shamen can wear chaos armor, and if the suit in question is a suit of chaos armor, then the shamen can wear it.The problem is that these are contradictory positions. Bray Shamans do not have a blanket exemption to wear things called Chaos Armour; they have a very specific allowance to use the 10 point magic item in BoC called Chaos Armour. They are otherwise disallowed from taking Magic Armour altogether, per their unit entry. If you agree that these are two different things, then there is no way to claim that the exemption for one implies an exemption for the other.

Your position is literally taking two phrases, in the exact same place, and interpreting one to mean for the specific BoC magic item Chaos Armour entry (""Beasts of Chaos characters only"), and the other to mean all types of Chaos Armour ("May be given to a Bray-shaman"). This is an inherent contradiction in your position which cannot possibly be resolved. Their meaning is inextricably linked by their position.

Since the idea that all Chaos Armour is inherently BoC-only is obviously ridiculous, the only rational conclusion is that only BoC Chaos Armour is available to the Bray-Shaman.

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 06:02
The problem is that these are contradictory positions. Bray Shamans do not have a blanket exemption to wear things called Chaos Armour; they have a very specific allowance to use the 10 point magic item in BoC called Chaos Armour. They are otherwise disallowed from taking Magic Armour altogether, per their unit entry. If you agree that these are two different things, then there is no way to claim that the exemption for one implies an exemption for the other.

Your position is literally taking two phrases, in the exact same place, and interpreting one to mean for the specific BoC magic item Chaos Armour entry (""Beasts of Chaos characters only"), and the other to mean all types of Chaos Armour ("May be given to a Bray-shaman"). This is an inherent contradiction in your position which cannot possibly be resolved. Their meaning is inextricably linked by their position.

You missed part of my argument. I was saying that we treat things like the Armor of Damnation in slightly different ways depending on whether or not we are making a beasts character or a hordes character.

When we make a hordes character, we reference chaos armor in the hordes book.

When we make a beasts character, we reference chaos armor in the beasts book.

How the Armor of Damnation works rules-wise is actively dependent on the context it is bought in.


Likewise, I think you are making a different mischaracterization of my argument. I never argued that the attributes of Chaos Armor in the beast book spread to all other instances of chaos armor in the hordes book (thereby creating beasts of chaos only suits of horde armor, weird). Instead, I argued that the process works the other way around. When one looks up the AoD when arming a beast character, the place that makes the most sense to reference is the beast book.

When making a hordes character, there is nothing to suggest we reference the profile of chaos armor in the beasts book. Conversely, when we make a beasts character, there is nothing to suggest we reference the profile of chaos armor in the hordes book. How we apply the chaos armor rules is entirely contingent on the kind of character we are making.

Nurgling Chieftain
01-04-2008, 06:52
You missed part of my argument.Ah.


I was saying that we treat things like the Armor of Damnation in slightly different ways depending on whether or not we are making a beasts character or a hordes character.The rules don't say that, making it a rather major assumption which contradicts basic concepts of context.


When we make a hordes character, we reference chaos armor in the hordes book.

When we make a beasts character, we reference chaos armor in the beasts book.References within a given book should be taken to be within that book whenever possible.


How the Armor of Damnation works rules-wise is actively dependent on the context it is bought in.It doesn't say that. I do not see any reason to assume that the Armour of Damnation works any differently for Beasts than it does for Hordes, and I can think of a lot of reasons why it shouldn't - number one being that this is a clear example of what's called an "Easter Egg Hunt".


Conversely, when we make a beasts character, there is nothing to suggest we reference the profile of chaos armor in the hordes book.The fact that that armour is in that book is plenty of reason.

yabbadabba
01-04-2008, 09:19
OK, let's lay this one to rest. The answer is again blindingly obvious.

Ask the tournament organiser. Ask your opponent. Email GWHQ. Wait for FAQ. That about covers it.

Outside of that you won't get an answer that will not turn into a pointless argument over logical vocabulary and interpretation of intent.

NOW can we stop this please?

EvC
01-04-2008, 12:19
This is nothing more than a guess on your part, a assertion without any backup.

I did provide evidence in the very next sentence, which you conveniently ignored from my quote in order to pretend I am providing no evidence. That makes you no better than a troll, and I thought you were better than that.

Lorcryst
01-04-2008, 12:23
I dunno, it's kinda fun to watch the trolling here ...

Ganymede, are you actually reading the posts here ? Do you have difficulties comprehending English ? I had to work a bit on my sentences, french is my native language ...


I can't see how you can take a specific exception in a magic item description and apply it to other magic items ... that's not even rule lawyering, it's blatantly refusing to read ...

But I find that hugely funny :evilgrin:

Diakos
01-04-2008, 14:11
"Question. Can Great Bray-Shamans or Bray-Shamans wear magic armour?

Answer. Generally no, as characters without the option to wear mundane
armour may not wear magical armour, however there is one exception.
The magic item 'Chaos Armour' in the Beasts of Chaos book states
"May be given to a Bray-Shaman". Note that other suits of armour
from the Hordes of Chaos book do not so state, thus they may not
be taken by a Bray-Shaman

Source. Direwolf's Beasts of Chaos FAQ v7.03"

I myself a BoC player am sad to hear this, but Q&A beats logic n' guesswork

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 15:57
I did provide evidence in the very next sentence, which you conveniently ignored from my quote in order to pretend I am providing no evidence. That makes you no better than a troll, and I thought you were better than that.

Go read the rest of my post. I responded to the rest of it by pointing out that your evidence is not really evidence at all. It is merely a rationalization. You were telling me why your interpretation might make sense, not why it is correct.

Also, try to maintain some integrity. Don't stoop to insults just because some guy on the internet disagrees with you.

Ganymede
01-04-2008, 16:04
Ah.

The rules don't say that, making it a rather major assumption which contradicts basic concepts of context.

References within a given book should be taken to be within that book whenever possible.

It doesn't say that. I do not see any reason to assume that the Armour of Damnation works any differently for Beasts than it does for Hordes, and I can think of a lot of reasons why it shouldn't - number one being that this is a clear example of what's called an "Easter Egg Hunt".

The fact that that armour is in that book is plenty of reason.


You missed an earlier quote I provided before which came from the Beasts of Chaos Magic section. In it, it states that beasts of chaos characters could take magic items from the hordes of chaos with the limitations posted there. Think carefully about what that is saying.

We are essentially being told here to treat the hordes of Chaos magic item list as if it really was in the beasts book for the purpose of equipping beast characters.

As to whether or not it is an easter egg, I doubt it. I don't see a whole lot of in game benefit for putting expensive armor on a bray shaman.

EvC
01-04-2008, 16:51
Go read the rest of my post. I responded to the rest of it by pointing out that your evidence is not really evidence at all. It is merely a rationalization. You were telling me why your interpretation might make sense, not why it is correct.

No, I provided the evidence:
"Chaos Armour in the BoC book also is a specific set of Chaos armour. We know it's specific and unique because only one model can wear it."

This is evidence. You ignored it. I'm not insulting you, but when your response to any argument is to say "that's not evidence" and ignore it, then that is the behaviour of a troll. You have made some good arguments in this thread, but every time you ignore a response and essentially say it's worthless, then you're that bit closer to a 4+ regeneration save and stupidity. Sometimes a little fire is the best way to deal with such responses ;)

kris.sherriff
01-04-2008, 16:59
We are essentially being told here to treat the hordes of Chaos magic item list as if it really was in the beasts book for the purpose of equipping beast characters.

No we are not.
We are being told that
"Models from the Beasts of Chaos book can also use items from the Hoards of Chaos book within the limitations given there"
Not that
"magic items from the HoC book should be considered a part of this book."


There are absolutely no limitations given in the entries of the relevent magical items. None at all.

That is not true.
Are they magic items? Yes.
So they follow all of the rules for magic items, including the limitations on who may take them. As you say there is nothing in there saying that they may be worn by a wizard so the limitation placed upon them are not removed.
Looking in a different army book to find it does not follow the instructions that you can take items from the HoC book as long as the HoC book lets you.

Kris

EvC
01-04-2008, 17:08
If the fact that the Hordes of Chaos items contain no limitations to them allow a Bray Shaman to circumvent the usual rules and take Armour of Damnation, then a non-magic using Wargor can take an Arcane Item. Alternatively, the usual restrictions in the main rulebook that apply to magic items also apply to arcane items and magic armour. In that case a Bray Shaman may not take Armour of Damnation, and a Wargor cannot take an Arcane Item.

kris.sherriff
01-04-2008, 17:22
There is another aspect of Ganymede's argument that needs to be looked at.
If what he is saying is correct (Which in everybody else's view, it isn't but stay with me) Than The magical armour in the HoC book that count as chaos armour, count as the chaos armour in the BoC book when taken by a BoC character.
If this were the case than only one set of armour that counts as chaos armour could be taken anyway as chaos armour is a magical item in the BoC book and you may not have multiples of a magical item in an army list except for scrolls and stones.
Thoughts?

Kris

Edit. Oh dear God, I have pushed this thread in to its 5th page when the OP was happy after 1.

Avian
01-04-2008, 19:00
Indeed, the thread has gone on quite long enough already and is hereby closed.

- The Moderators