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View Full Version : Against Lizardmen, Varghulf or Cairn Wraiths?



Heimlich
30-03-2008, 09:25
So, here is my dilemma. For my rare slot I can't decide between a Varghulf or 2 Cairn Wraiths with a Tomb Banshee. Both are the same points. My thinking is that the skinks will probably pepper the varghulf, while wraiths, being ethereal, may have more longevity in the game. Anyways, any opinions are welcomed in open arms.

Malcador
30-03-2008, 10:14
You've basically answered your own question. The Vargulf will probably be poisoined to death, while the wraiths will have no worries about that, and stegadons and skinks don't like the banshee singing. Just watch out for the JSOD though, that's a real pain, even for wraiths.

Cragspyder
30-03-2008, 11:18
JSOD usually just has a GW, right? So the Wraiths don't care about him I would imagine.

Better watch out if you face a Slann, though :) Other then that approximately 0% of the list has magical attacks, so if they don't take a JSOD with a magic weapon or a Slann (or roll one of the Thunderbolts with their Skink Priest) then your Wraiths are pretty much invincible.

W0lf
30-03-2008, 12:17
Vargulf.

Charge skinks and terror them around some, just be careful.

salamanders have magical attacks, they will make an easy meal of cairn wraiths.Oh and if he has a slaan the cairn wraiths will be dead so early. Unless you can stop him casting a single magic missile (say 5 corspe carts? :P)

Cragspyder
30-03-2008, 13:13
Salamanders don't even have Flaming Attacks, I am 95% sure they don't have Magical Attacks either.

I will check when I get home of course.

Jack of Blades
30-03-2008, 13:24
Salamanders don't even have Flaming Attacks, I am 95% sure they don't have Magical Attacks either.

I will check when I get home of course.

You're not only a rules lawyer but also wrong, this has been FAQed.

heinrichvoncarstein
30-03-2008, 13:37
I would go for cairn wraiths

Cragspyder
30-03-2008, 13:42
You're not only a rules lawyer but also wrong, this has been FAQed.

Playing by the rules is not the same as being a rules lawyer, sir. If a unit does not have Flaming Attacks, it does not have Flaming Attacks. There is no need to be so snarky about it.

As to it being FAQed, I don't mean to be rude, but can you link it, please? As I am a Lizardman player myself it is quite an advantage to me for the Sallies to have Flaming Attacks, so I will be more then happy to be wrong in this case.

The only official FAQ or Errata I know of is the Errata section of the UK Games Workshop website. If there is another source I am very interested to see what I have been missing!

If it turns out they do have Flaming Attacks then I will still pick the Wraiths, as the Flaming Attacks will negate the Vargulf's Regeneration.

Magical attacks I will pick the Vargulf.

Magical, Flaming attacks, and I pick the Black Coach :)

redrum
30-03-2008, 15:14
JSOD usually just has a GW, right? So the Wraiths don't care about him I would imagine.



Just FYI you can give the JSoD the Venom of the Firefly Frog which would make all his attacks both poison and magical. Seems like a good option if you want him to deal with ethereal troops. Or the Burning Blade of Chotec for flaming attacks to deal with nasty regenerating Varghulfs :D

Lord Dan
30-03-2008, 15:42
Actually, couldn't you give him the Venom of the Firefly frog with the Burning Blades? Then you'd have flaming, poisoned, magical attacks.

redrum
30-03-2008, 15:47
Actually, couldn't you give him the Venom of the Firefly frog with the Burning Blades? Then you'd have flaming, poisoned, magical attacks.

Sadly no, the descriptions explicitly states "all mundane weapons used by the model..." I guess they thought that flaming, poisoned, magical attacks might be a little overpowered ;)

theunwantedbeing
30-03-2008, 15:58
Cairn Wraiths.
The banshee's scream plus being ethereal gives them greater hitting power as well as greater survivability.

The only disadvantage is that they dont allow those units nearby to march.

The_Dragon_Rising
30-03-2008, 18:18
Just FYI you can give the JSoD the Venom of the Firefly Frog which would make all his attacks both poison and magical. Seems like a good option if you want him to deal with ethereal troops.

FYI a JSoD with VotFF cannot be a JSoD as they are both enchanted items or talismans (i cant recall which) and so must take one of the other.

redrum
30-03-2008, 18:30
FYI a JSoD with VotFF cannot be a JSoD as they are both enchanted items or talismans (i cant recall which) and so must take one of the other.

Yep, you're right. Oh well, sounded like a good idea.

Famder
30-03-2008, 20:29
Take the wraiths. The varghulf isn't that scary against Lizardmen. The wraiths negate the primary strength of the army, their cold-blooded leadership.

praesto
30-03-2008, 21:07
Salamanders do not have magic attacks, afaik. And as Famder pointed out, their cold-blooded leadership is irrelevant to the banshee attack.

Salamanders do, however, have flaming attacks. They will tear a varghulf apart.

Karhedron
30-03-2008, 21:58
Cairn Wraiths. Those GW attacks will be handy against the high T monsters in the lizardman army too.

As for Slaan spells, if any opponent is really determined to magic 3 T3 models to death it doesn't really matter whether it is a Slaan or not. Just remember to keep a dispel scroll or 3 handy. At the end of the day, expending a lot of effort on a single target will leave the rest of your army unmolested as they get ready to attack.

Heimlich
30-03-2008, 23:18
Well, due to my friend frequenting this site, I've made my choice, it seems pretty clear and cut. Thank you for all the helpful advice.

fubukii
30-03-2008, 23:59
wraiths etheral and terror is nice

Lord_Byron
31-03-2008, 01:08
Wraiths. They can't be skinked to death. But leave the banshee out in favor of the hitting power of 3 wraiths.

Lordmonkey
31-03-2008, 01:48
FYI a JSoD with VotFF cannot be a JSoD...

The acronyms, they burn! :cries:

I don't have a clue what you are talking about here bud :D

I would say the wraiths. Almost as combat-killy as a varghulf, and that banshee will be infinitely useful vs stegadons and skinks.

Heimlich
31-03-2008, 02:45
If I were to take a Cairn Wraith unit, the entire purpose would be to have a Banshee

Lordsaradain
31-03-2008, 07:40
JSOD? I'd definetly go for the cairn wraiths anyway, LM have poor Ld, and Cold blooded wont save them from the banshee howl.

Frankly
31-03-2008, 09:07
Cairn Wraiths 100%

oop
31-03-2008, 09:26
Cairn Wraiths.

Just as a quick note: Why donīt you make it a unit of 5? If you foresee your opponent is going magic heavy 3 Wraiths could be destroyed, whereas 5 have huge chances of surviving a round of magic, giving you the chance to bring them back and charge/hide them.

And yes, Banshee too

Famder
31-03-2008, 10:32
JSOD? I'd definetly go for the cairn wraiths anyway, LM have poor Ld, and Cold blooded wont save them from the banshee howl.

Only certain units have terrible leadership. Standard Saurus Ld is 8, and with a Slann 9, Krox have 7. All that is average or above. Besides, if your expensive unit wants to scream and kill my skinks it is wasting its potential. The only reason it is scarier than the Varghulf is because it bypasses coldblooded, not because it will be super effective against our unmodified leadership.

Von Wibble
31-03-2008, 14:13
The acronyms, they burn! :cries:

I don't have a clue what you are talking about here bud :D

I would say the wraiths. Almost as combat-killy as a varghulf, and that banshee will be infinitely useful vs stegadons and skinks.

Just to translate the acronyms

"JSOD" - Jaguar Saurus of Death - a Saurus hero with charm of the jaguar warrior for M9. Usually gets a great weapon and still has room for other protection if needed. Mark of Sotek for +1A on charge also nice.

"VotFF" - Venom of the Firefly Frog - all attacks with mundane wepons are poisoned/magical.

Both are same types of item so not possible on the same model.

Btw I thought Ld was based on model statsso proximity to general of no use vs a Banshee. So Saurus get Ld 8 whether near a Slann or not.

Oenghus
31-03-2008, 15:43
As I understand it, the banshee scream allows the use of the best available leadership (ie. the general's, if he's nearby). That's the case vs the TK Casket of Souls, and the effects are broadly similar, so... here's hoping, anyway. :)

These could be a great unit against lizardmen. The only options he's going to have against them are a) Send a hero after them, b) magic them to death, or c) take it like a man.

You more or less know what his response is going to be based on his army (ie -- no slaan = a JSoD heading their way) so you can plan and position accordingly.

Von Wibble
31-03-2008, 18:54
[QUOTE=Oenghus;2484008]As I understand it, the banshee scream allows the use of the best available leadership (ie. the general's, if he's nearby). That's the case vs the TK Casket of Souls, and the effects are broadly similar, so... here's hoping, anyway. :)

[QUOTE]

You are half right. I has assumed coming from the other way. The Banshee rules explicitly state that you may use the general's Ld (or other improvements).

However, the Casket (p33, TK book) states that you "deduct the unit's leadership". It makes no reference to being able to use improved Ld at all. I thought the banshee would get the same as a TK rather than VC player so when told by my previous opponent that was the case I went with it. Also the Empire Hammer of Judgement uses LD and (I presumed) allows no improvements (Black Knight killer). And the Wood elf Spirit Sword. There are quite a few things that become very weak if you assume units can boost LD for any of these things.

fubukii
31-03-2008, 18:56
kroxigors being only ld7 is pretty easy for the banshee to wound seein how its 2d6 + 2 - 7 wounds

Lordmonkey
31-03-2008, 19:28
Just to translate the acronyms

"JSOD" - Jaguar Saurus of Death - a Saurus hero with charm of the jaguar warrior for M9. Usually gets a great weapon and still has room for other protection if needed. Mark of Sotek for +1A on charge also nice.

"VotFF" - Venom of the Firefly Frog - all attacks with mundane wepons are poisoned/magical.

Ah, thanks for that! :D

alextroy
31-03-2008, 23:45
However, the Casket (p33, TK book) states that you "deduct the unit's leadership". It makes no reference to being able to use improved Ld at all. I thought the banshee would get the same as a TK rather than VC player so when told by my previous opponent that was the case I went with it. Also the Empire Hammer of Judgement uses LD and (I presumed) allows no improvements (Black Knight killer). And the Wood elf Spirit Sword. There are quite a few things that become very weak if you assume units can boost LD for any of these things.

But the Tomb King FAQ states:


Q. Can you use the generalís Ld (if in 12" range) when determining the number of wounds from the Casket?
A. Yes. For all purposes, a unitís Ld is equal to the generalís if heís in 12" range.

And the Empire Hammer of Judgement now requires a Toughness test instead of a Leadership Test ;).

Von Wibble
01-04-2008, 12:24
But the Tomb King FAQ states:


Q. Can you use the generalís Ld (if in 12" range) when determining the number of wounds from the Casket?
A. Yes. For all purposes, a unitís Ld is equal to the generalís if heís in 12" range.

And the Empire Hammer of Judgement now requires a Toughness test instead of a Leadership Test ;).

Another nail in the casket's coffin. That and the magic resistance really are making it less worthwhile every game. Also the spirit sword turns from perfect zombie dragon killer to suicide item.

Items reliant on failed leadership checks are weak enough without allowing the general to help out. Silly silly FAQ.