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Tiamat
31-03-2008, 09:14
I don't like Necrons. I make no secret of this, I don't like the models and I don't like to rules. But both these fatal flaws could be forgiven, even embraced as cool, if they had a background I liked.

As it stands, I dislike them most of all because of the simple reason that GW had to Retcon (retroactive continuity, means they change things and pretend it's always been like that) the 40K history to make way for these all powerful gods who are now the "greatest evil in creation" without contest. It seems that everything that goes on these days, the existance of the Tau, the 13th black crusade, the goings on in the Mechanicum, is thanks purely to the work of the Deceiver and nobody else, everybody dances to his tune bar none. I'm just waiting for the day the Emperor rises and inexplciably turns gold.

I would have prefered for them to be some branch of humanity, lost since the Age of Strife and ravaged by plague. To save themselves, they melded with their advanced technology, creating this race of powerful robots and cyborgs, has anybody seen or played RF Online, (www.rf-onlinegame.com), they would have characters like the Accretians, who look totally cool, and best of all no all powerful gods who are invincible and control everything as though they were playing Black and White. They would be a high technology race, benefitting from their knowledge of Dark Age technology, and wouldn't be held back by silly superstitions. Foreign policy would be xenophobic due to their long term isolation, but not genocidally so, content to dominate and enslave those they consider a threat, basically everybody.

So back to the thread question, what background would you change and why?

Imperialis_Dominatus
31-03-2008, 10:46
Both Tyranids and C'tan suffer from Mary-Sue (an evil sort of variation of the disease) in that they seem absolutely invincible in fluff, which bothers me. Victories over them are obvious handwavium and any realistic chance of victory is nil. It's crap and I'd just make a few touches so it's not so certain that, say, there are enough Hive Fleets to stick one on each world or that C'tan are the undeniable harvesters of everything mortal. Every race has both a crutch and a lose condition, save these two, and it just utterly bothers me to an extent that, fluffwise, every game I play, model I assemble, surface I paint, and word I write is utterly pointless. Ugh.

TheBigBadWolf
31-03-2008, 10:55
I think i will say it for eveybody,

The fact there is only 1000 marines in a chapter :wtf:

I dont want an argument but that is the only background i want changed. I can accept the necrons as they have been gone for 65 million years so it doesnt bother me.

Baaltharus
31-03-2008, 11:58
Both Tyranids and C'tan suffer from Mary-Sue (an evil sort of variation of the disease) in that they seem absolutely invincible in fluff, which bothers me. Victories over them are obvious handwavium and any realistic chance of victory is nil. It's crap and I'd just make a few touches so it's not so certain that, say, there are enough Hive Fleets to stick one on each world or that C'tan are the undeniable harvesters of everything mortal. Every race has both a crutch and a lose condition, save these two, and it just utterly bothers me to an extent that, fluffwise, every game I play, model I assemble, surface I paint, and word I write is utterly pointless. Ugh.

Well there are some glimmers of hope to the extent that Necrons can be taken out within their own tombs and the nids can be manipulated (to a limited degree) as well as there being no real concrete evidence to say how many Hive fleets there are floating in the void.

Stingray_tm
31-03-2008, 11:59
Things i want to get changed:

1. I agree on this 1000 men Space Marines thing. It's idiotic considering the scale of conflicts or the Imperium. Even todays Earth probably has more than 1 million special forces soldier (which would be the real life equivalent).

2. Tyranid Hive Fleets moving in sublight speed. Yeah, what a big danger. You have hundreds or even thousands of years, before they reach another system, if you use real life physics for this. There needs to be something else, but only drifting through space.

3. Imperium technicians not understanding their own technologies and using rituals and prayers to make things work... This kind of stuff (using age old instructions, without actually knowing, what you are doing) might work for things like assault rifles, but most certainly not for plasma reactors... At least let the elite (Adeptus Mechanicus) know exactly, what they are doing.

jfrazell
31-03-2008, 12:00
My main beef. Everyone should be capable of being beaten. There should be no necron/Nid (its hopeless you might as well slit your wrists). Either by direct destruction or something akin to “the tombworlds are few and finite. Find them all and the menace ends.”

1. Necrons: would prefer just a slight modification. Ancient race. Fought the Old Ones, fought some of the known races including the then newly beginning Eldar. However, the timeline is 65,000 years ago, not 65 million. Found the Star Gods while studying their star-who are not stellar vampires but creatures from pre-history. Star Gods tricked them into becoming the necrons. Went into hibernation after getting rears handed to them by the ancient races. But now that the ancient races have gone away (that vacuum being filled by the eldar then orks and humans), crypt was opened starting the their return. Ancient, highly advanced, but like everything in 40K-potentially killable fluffwise.

2. Tyranids: Same fluff as now. Difference. They occasionally get their posteriors handed to them without entire fleets getting wiped out that sort of thing (as in the IG pic, scouring of Hive Fleet Scarabus or whatever its called). Also, the Imperium doesn’t know if more coming, amounts etc. Its just unknown.

3. Eldar. Are dying. But there is hope. Since EOT some craftworlds have realized they have strength left and are charting a new, unknown course to regain their empire.

4. Guard. While there is a full spectrum of troops, some are highly advanced and real sledgehammers that bring victories against the xenos scum. In general more depictions of the Imperium getting it together and actually defeating opponents once in a while.

5. Flesh out chaos followers more. As it stands now, there’s absolutely no benefit to joining. In the end an inquisitor is going to get them, or even worse they win and Emperor’s Champion is going to get them. Er…no thanks.

Tiamat
31-03-2008, 13:16
I think I've definitely tapped into a "we don't like the invincible Necrons and Tyranids" theme here and found that some want them changed. What I'd like to know is, how would you change them.

Nid's are a tough one. On the one hand, the buggish tide it not without appeal, but looking at maps and reading fluff, you get the idea that there are endless streams of bioships so tightly packed that a man could walk from Terra to Fenris to Cadia without being exposed to vacuum. And then there's this whole continuous evolution thing. They're like the REALLY obnoxious version of Star Trek Borg, at least Jerry Ryan is super hot.

If I had to change them, I'd have the hive fleets reduced to hive fleet, a single super sized gathering that descends on one planet at a time rather than dozens, perhaps with a few outrider fleets that launch limited attacked on surrounding systems. At present you get the idea of tides washing up on a dozen planets simultaneously, which does strain credulity.

jfrazell
31-03-2008, 13:34
As noted.
Nids: quite a few splinter fleets out there that the galaxy is having to deal with. Large concentrations but beatable. The Imperium doesn't know if more main fleets are coming or not.

Necrons: bad boys from the past with outrageous tech. However, they are few and far between. In their arrogance they have begun to move before they could gather proper strength, and while not the old ones the Orks, humies, and others possess the strength to reisst them, include an epic battle where one tombworld was discovered and defeat by that shadowy menace, the Pan Fo. They've been beaten before and could be beaten again. Watch out for necron allies though...

Either of these might begin to coalesce the ork gestalt consciousness however, unleashing great waughs against them. Liekwise the Imperium could gather strength to launch crusades of their own, or establish new chapters and forces (dare I say, legions) to search out and destroy the necron tombworlds. Codex Xenos Hunter anyone?

And remember. All your secrets are belong to us!

The_Outsider
31-03-2008, 13:38
I play dark eldar.

I would change the fluff by actually writing some.

Iracundus
31-03-2008, 13:56
Things i want to get changed:

2. Tyranid Hive Fleets moving in sublight speed. Yeah, what a big danger. You have hundreds or even thousands of years, before they reach another system, if you use real life physics for this. There needs to be something else, but only drifting through space.


Except that's not true. Tyranid Hive Fleets move in the warp just like every other race's fleets (except the Necrons). Over and over again, people keep making the mistake of assuming the Tyranids have no warp capabilitiy despite repeated evidence in the background they do: from 2nd ed. Tyranid Codex when the 2nd wave of Behemoth exists the warp to face off against the Imperial fleet, to the 3rd ed. Tyranid Codex where it describes Tyranid fleets exiting the warp, just further out compared to Imperial ships.

Lexington
31-03-2008, 15:21
I'd change humanity's background so that the ridiculous retcons and comic book history put down in the Index Astartes articles and Horus Heresy books no longer existed.

Kruz
31-03-2008, 15:49
I don't like Necrons.

...

I would have prefered for them to be some branch of humanity, lost since the Age of Strife and ravaged by plague. To save themselves, they melded with their advanced technology, creating this race of powerful robots and cyborgs, has anybody seen or played RF Online, (www.rf-onlinegame.com), they would have characters like the Accretians, who look totally cool, and best of all no all powerful gods who are invincible and control everything as though they were playing Black and White. They would be a high technology race, benefitting from their knowledge of Dark Age technology, and wouldn't be held back by silly superstitions. Foreign policy would be xenophobic due to their long term isolation, but not genocidally so, content to dominate and enslave those they consider a threat, basically everybody.

This is actually quite brilliant, and i thought the same thing =) I wish that GW had used some originality when introducing this new race. Your idea is spot on: humans who had hyper evolved from linking with their technology. You could insert fluff here - your idea, that they saved themselves from a horrid plague by going tech, or you could say that the naturally yet exponential course of technology allowed them to divorce their bodies and biology for machines...and in the end that they don't even need the machines to exist (only to manifest). This calls up ideas of Asimov, William Gibson, and Masamune Shirow/Mamoru Oshii/Kenji Kamiyama [Ghost in the Shell manga, film, and TV]. You could even say that some humans linked with and merged their souls/ghosts/minds (ppick your beliefs) with AI...and the result is the Necrons. It also fits the fluff of the "Dark Age of Technology", where the advancement of tech was exponential and uninhibited. At the point they are introduced to the WH40k universe, they are not even cyborgs [which would have made them Tau part II], but so detached from humanity that they are almost remote from their roots. They manifest in robotic form but don't exist that way permanently. They would be hostile (because they need to be for the game), but because they see the Imperium as hostile directly to them (which they are), unenlightened (which they are), neurotic (yes), and xenophobic (yes) [I play IG, don't flame me :D], they would then be an adversary to the Double Eagle.

This is all just mental fun and the sad sniffling of fans more dedicated to the fluff than the owner :cries: Instead of something creative and new from GW, they gave us the uber r0x0rz 40k version of undead. :rolleyes: I am one of those people who would like to see a bit of a divorce between WH40K and WHFB.


Another thing I would change was mentioned by another poster [Stingray_tm]: the Imperium may be paranoid about tech because of the threat of emergent and hostile AI and their history, but the fluff about them performing what is essentially voodoo to keep a Gellar field operational is total bovine poopoo. As that person said:


Imperium technicians not understanding their own technologies and using rituals and prayers to make things work... This kind of stuff (using age old instructions, without actually knowing, what you are doing) might work for things like assault rifles, but most certainly not for plasma reactors... At least let the elite (Adeptus Mechanicus) know exactly, what they are doing.

I agree. If the beureaucracy wants to suppress tech and not let us have doublestacked GeForce cards so we can play Call of Duty XXVIII - Cadian Assault, then so be it. But it is ludicrous to assume that dancing in a circle and placing sliced ham at the base of 40 Gigawatt magnetic coil on a fusion reactor will keep it running for centuries. If GW would work on this more, it actually sets the stage for an Imperium - AM schism to happen. And my money's on the Adeptus Mech.

Goq Gar
31-03-2008, 15:56
I would change the whole "Ork weapons dont actually work" part. I think they should just be "very crude".

Tiamat
01-04-2008, 08:02
Thanks for the upbeat response Kruz, it's always nice when a little creativity meets with positive feedback and encouragement.

I feel like building my own army now, proxying Necron rules, but with better models and background. Looking at the Accretians from RF Online, I reckon they could be built by mixing Tau Battlesuits with a Wraithlord.

I think I might go off and write a history to retcon the Necrons. Stick something on the development forum, you never know GW may just like it.

Felwether
01-04-2008, 08:06
I like that the Imperium is highly religious and superstitious when it comes to their technology (and everything else come to think of it), it gives them a slightly more original twist.


But it is ludicrous to assume that dancing in a circle and placing sliced ham at the base of 40 Gigawatt magnetic coil on a fusion reactor will keep it running for centuries.

It's not that praying and blessing machines actually makes them work it's that Imperials believe it makes them work. There's a big difference.

Also I actually quite like Necron fluff. :angel:

Hellebore
01-04-2008, 08:24
As it stands, I dislike them most of all because of the simple reason that GW had to Retcon (retroactive continuity, means they change things and pretend it's always been like that) the 40K history to make way for these all powerful gods who are now the "greatest evil in creation" without contest.


This is perhaps my biggest peeve with modern 40k - the continual misrepresentation of the background by fans.

Can you tell me precisely WHAT was retconned by including the C'tan? Even before they became omnipotent stargods, the Old Ones still got wiped out by a massive war, pressumably fought against SOMEONE. The C'tan ARE that someone.

The Yngr were mentioned in the 2nd ed eldar codex in their myth cycles as taking part in the war in heaven, so they didn't retcon that either.

I don't like the idea that some armies are ostensibly unbeatable either, but the existence of the C'tan retconned 40k less than the Horus Heresy novels have.

I pretty much agree with jfrazell on backgrounds (except I don't really care about the age of the necrons, 60 million years is not much of a stretch, and 65,000 years ago is concurrent with modern humanity, making the eldar a younger race than humanity).


Hellebore

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 09:34
I've always hated the background change to the Dark Angels after Rogue Trader. Granted, there wasn't much published about them in 1st edition, only that they had BLACK armour, were sleek, and had a hint of native america about them. But then in the wake of 2nd edition Luther, Caliban et al were introduced and we had the depressing situation of a potentially cool primarch of arguably the coolest legion/chapter, changed into a deficient primarch who is almost on an even keel with a mere human (Luther), and who can't even keep his own house in order. It also doesn't gel at all with Bill King's brilliant 'Lion and the Wolf' two parter written seperately for 2nd edition Angels of Death with no knowledge of the Luther/Caliban change written by Jervis Johnson (that towering literary talent). It's also inevitably lead to Lion El Jonson becoming one of the minor primarchs as we can see from Descent of Angels and the Artbook series. He was 2nd/3rd primarch in King's version, a primarch who 'if he was quiet he was also brave and a mighty leader of men' and a primarch 'who's silence concealed a deep wisdom' and 'only he and Horus had achieved a greater tally of victories than Russ'. Now look at him. They can't even draw a picture of him without that stupid winged mkVII helmet on his head.

Stingray_tm
01-04-2008, 11:42
It's not that praying and blessing machines actually makes them work it's that Imperials believe it makes them work. There's a big difference.


That's not the point. Try to wrap recompiling a Linux Kernel to update graphics card drivers into prayers and rituals without the user knowing what Linux IS! You may manage to do that, but now try the same with maintaining a nuclear power plant!

"Brother Lorangus is sick!"
"What happened?"
"He took a bath in the Sacred Pool of the Emperors Holy Energy without wearing the Ritual Robe of Protection."
"Well, that must be the Wrath of the Emperor himself. We better sacrifice 10 oxen, and seal the access to the Sacred Pool, so nobody ever can anger the Holy Emperor again!"

I mean, COME ON!!!

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 12:11
Hellebore these are the retcons I see:
*Orks now being a creation of the Old Ones;
*Eldar being a creation of the Old Ones;
*The plotline that either the Old Ones or necrons effectively created everything and were the cause for everything;
*The plotline that the necrons are invincible. IIRC prior to that, no race was viewed as invincible, even the existing iterations of the Tyranids. Admittedly my fluff viewpoint is more 2nd edition. I remember a statement in the Nid Codex about the Nids being real badguys, but that the Mankind was the greatest predator/power (something cool) in the galaxy.
*Its just me but wasn't the Cadian gate/pylons originally unknown, believed to have been built by the eldar? Thats justa personal recollection there.

Question-the webway. Prior to the necron codex, was the webway created by the Old Ones or Eldar back when they were buff?



I pretty much agree with jfrazell on backgrounds (except I don't really care about the age of the necrons, 60 million years is not much of a stretch, and 65,000 years ago is concurrent with modern humanity, making the eldar a younger race than humanity).


Hellebore
65M in space. That would have the Necron/Eldar/Old One conflict ending about 15000BC. Eldar as a space faring race thousands of years before we invented the wheel, feels about right.

Also would be a more fitting timeline for any sort of Ctan/human linkage you'd like to posit.

I like much of the Necron fluff, with just minor buffs (freeking hate the Ctan though-nothing by hydrogen sucking space ticks) and believe it could be modified to contain the terror of the necrons, but make them a little more mysterious with the note that, even they can be killed.

Supremearchmarshal
01-04-2008, 12:13
Humans - agree with Lexington and Captain Stern. Another thing I'd do is make the marines weaker but more numerous.

Chaos - as above, plus I'd make them more like in the old RoC books. Oh, and one more thing: Renegade does not equal Chaos!

Orks - fine, except the bit about them growing to the size of a house is a bit daft.

Tyranids - no change. Face it, if bugs were that big and that smart we'd have no chance.

Necrons - fine, but I hate the C'tan - needless duplication of the Chaos Gods IMO

Eldar - the only change needed is to make them not die in droves every time they appear in the fluff just because they're a dying race.

Dark Eldar - get them some background that amounts to more than "they are these evil slaver-pirates..." (there are some hints of better stuff, but it seriously needs expansion - if only WD had something other than ads these days...)

Inquisition and Tau - no change.

Hellebore
01-04-2008, 12:55
Hellebore these are the retcons I see:
*Orks now being a creation of the Old Ones;


Well they were always the creation of someone, and the only name for them we had was brainboyz. Old Ones isn't much different.



*The plotline that either the Old Ones or necrons effectively created everything and were the cause for everything;


Well we knew that the Old Ones were responsible for a lot of what exists, they've been in the story since it began. This only codified it somewhat.

We also know from 18+ years of background that they were laid low in a war. Well they had to fight someone, and that turned out to be the necrons.



*The plotline that the necrons are invincible. IIRC prior to that, no race was viewed as invincible, even the existing iterations of the Tyranids. Admittedly my fluff viewpoint is more 2nd edition. I remember a statement in the Nid Codex about the Nids being real badguys, but that the Mankind was the greatest predator/power (something cool) in the galaxy.


Well I don't like the idea that any army is invincible, but Chaos has pretty much had that image for ages. You can't beat it unless you destroy all emoting creatures in the universe.

However we do know that the necrons are defeatable, otherwise 40k wouldn't exist - the c'tan would have won the war.



*Its just me but wasn't the Cadian gate/pylons originally unknown, believed to have been built by the eldar? Thats justa personal recollection there.


iirc they were introduced by Abnett in Eisenhorn, I don't remember them being mentioned before that.



Question-the webway. Prior to the necron codex, was the webway created by the Old Ones or Eldar back when they were buff?


It was built by the Old Ones but the eldar took over and extended/explored it further than they ever did.



65M in space. That would have the Necron/Eldar/Old One conflict ending about 15000BC. Eldar as a space faring race thousands of years before we invented the wheel, feels about right.


Well, 65,000 years ago we had humans on almost every continent developing sophisticated stone tools. Sure agriculture didn't really appear until ~10,000 BC, but we are putting an entire race created from scratch into existence after a naturally evolving race already existed. ie humanity had a head start simply by having existed for hundreds of thousands of years.


Hellebore

Chaplain of Chaos
01-04-2008, 14:57
I for one enjoy the 40k background...

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 15:20
Respectfully:



*Orks now being a creation of the Old Ones;
Well they were always the creation of someone, and the only name for them we had was brainboyz. Old Ones isn't much different.

**********, it changes their creation from internal and sort of an interesting twist on the fall from grace to ‘just another creation of the Old Ones.’ That’s quite a bit different.


Well we knew that the Old Ones were responsible for a lot of what exists, they've been in the story since it began. This only codified it somewhat.

Its one thing to say they were around. Its another to say they created the HRUD, jakeoro, Eldar, Orks, and potentially humans. We-who’s left?




Well I don't like the idea that any army is invincible, but Chaos has pretty much had that image for ages. You can't beat it unless you destroy all emoting creatures in the universe.

However we do know that the necrons are defeatable, otherwise 40K wouldn't exist - the c'tan would have won the war.

Respectfully I have to disagree. With the one exception of the recent eldar codex notation on Eldrad, everything in the necron codex denotes them as uber pownage (technical term) and unstoppable. BFG is similar in that their ships are nearly unkillable. Prior to that, Chaos was bad, it was nationwide, but it also has a tendency to get its keister clocked crusade after crusade. The orks were impressive, but could never get it together.


Well, 65,000 years ago we had humans on almost every continent developing sophisticated stone tools. Sure agriculture didn't really appear until ~10,000 BC, but we are putting an entire race created from scratch into existence after a naturally evolving race already existed. ie humanity had a head start simply by having existed for hundreds of thousands of years.

Lets restate again. In 25,000 BC we were nooga nooga cavemen. MonKeighs would be an apt term. If the Eldar are already in space fighting an intergalactic (and winning until the enslavers came I might add) war that’s incredibly beyond where humanity is at. They are effectively the galaxy’s Hyperpower until M30. That’s a 55,000 year span of domination. That’s a really really really long time (did I mention really). It was only after being hit by the galaxy equivalent of an Extinction Level Event that they became supplanted. One could posit that if they just started pushing out the babies they would again grow powerful (they still have most of that knowledge). OT but I've never understood what the deal is with that anyway...

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-04-2008, 15:24
Well I don't like the idea that any army is invincible, but Chaos has pretty much had that image for ages. You can't beat it unless you destroy all emoting creatures in the universe.

However we do know that the necrons are defeatable, otherwise 40k wouldn't exist - the c'tan would have won the war.

Thing about Chaos is, while it was portrayed as a grave threat, it wasn't unstoppable. Just because you cannot destroy a threat does not assure its victory- as we've seen from Abaddon's.... exploits. :rolleyes: They fight and they corrupt, but they might never actually do anything, might never actually win. Whereas the Necrons are, to all intents and purposes, unstoppable in current fluff. So, in closing... don't give me that.

Besides... didn't the C'tan basically notice that the fridge was empty and go to bed for sixty million years? They won, and that was a problem- nothing to eat.

The_Outsider
01-04-2008, 15:38
Thing about Chaos is, while it was portrayed as a grave threat, it wasn't unstoppable. Just because you cannot destroy a threat does not assure its victory- as we've seen from Abaddon's.... exploits. :rolleyes: They fight and they corrupt, but they might never actually do anything, might never actually win. Whereas the Necrons are, to all intents and purposes, unstoppable in current fluff. So, in closing... don't give me that.

Besides... didn't the C'tan basically notice that the fridge was empty and go to bed for sixty million years? They won, and that was a problem- nothing to eat.

Well considering the C'tan and their Necron legions took on an entire galaxy lead by the msot powerful race to exist and won, it kind of says something about how powerful necrons are in the fluff.

Hell in the novel Nightbringer 4 necron warriors were fighting on equal terms with an entire space marine tactical squad, elements of an assault squad, a dark eldar lord and his warrior posse.

Necron fluff is "we win, we just cannot be bothered yet".

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-04-2008, 16:08
But, Outsider, that's the point of contention here. I'm not arguing what the fluff says, I'm arguing that it's ridiculous and bothers me. See the thread title? :p

Skirnak
01-04-2008, 16:16
I don't have a problem with the number of space marines there are. The only problem with the Adeptus Astartes is when it seems like they're everywhere at once, and the Imperial Guard are nowhere in sight.

I also don't have a problem with the Adeptus Mechanicus, or rather the state of technology. They know what to do when it comes to maintaining and reproducing technology (to a large extent) just not why they do it. I don't see what's wrong with ritualised maintenance, they don't just dance around a machine until it feels better.

The current state of the Necrons and C'tan annoy me, for reasons stated by others.

The_Outsider
01-04-2008, 16:17
But, Outsider, that's the point of contention here. I'm not arguing what the fluff says, I'm arguing that it's ridiculous and bothers me. See the thread title? :p

Yes but some people like the idea of a threat that cannot be stopped - it adds to the "we are doomed - it just comes down to who kills us, not when".

I myself would change tyranid fluff - they are touted as all invincible but unlike necrons have virtually no weakness (since necrons are still snoozing and they can be kept snoozing with surgical strikes).

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-04-2008, 16:18
Kind of with Skirnak here, the Mechanicus may not know what they're doing, but dammit, it's doing something!

Although personally the size of a Chapter does bug me a bit in conjunction with the feats they are supposed to be able to pull off. If those actions (conquering whole systems and such) were in conjunction with Guard I'd feel better.


Yes but some people like the idea of a threat that cannot be stopped - it adds to the "we are doomed - it just comes down to who kills us, not when".

Yes, I can see the appeal, but it makes my own appreciation of the fluff less full, because it's like, "Oh, Captain Valiantmanliness and his Company held off a whole Ork Waaagh! by use of careful sabotage and positioning, as well as skill at arms, but it doesn't matter because the C'tan will eat us all in the end."

I'm fine with the C'tan and Nids being a very grave threat, possibly one that could overwhelm us, perhaps with a very good chance of doing so- but being impossible to defeat? Screws up any possible optimism- which 'some people' do like. :p


I myself would change tyranid fluff - they are touted as all invincible but unlike necrons have virtually no weakness (since necrons are still snoozing and they can be kept snoozing with surgical strikes).

You'll note I have issues with Nids too. ;)

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 16:32
I could see the Admech maintaining much of its technology through ritual.
1) All they are doing is adding ritual verbiage to the actual technical manual. Visualize starting your old car on a cold morning. You pump the gas, revv the engine and chant “copme on old girl, come on old girl.” And voula it works. This is the repairman level of technology. If the holy spectrum gauge goes red, it demonstrates the machine spirit’s distemper with a tainted part, and you must replace the transmogrifier with a new holy transmogrifier.

2) However I see the higher level guys knowing a good bit more than mere chanting. They do a good bit of technical research and analysis on new phenomena otherwise, and have proven capable of new designs or adapting designs away from demonically inclined structures (note BFG ships show slow advancement-battleships vs. grandcruisers).

3). The problem I have is with the lost knowledge concept. In the age of permanent data storage, how do you lose knowledge? Closely guarded secret –yes. Proscriptions on new development-yes. But lost knowledge-nah.

Promethius
01-04-2008, 17:14
I completely agree on the indefeatable thing. 'Crons and 'Nids should, simply, be yet another race that is competing to take humanities crown, but not to the extent where resistence really is futile. This whole 'ok you may defeat the current hive fleets but there are an endless supply of them coming' thing is just boring.

I would also love it if Imperial Guard were able to win anything, ever. It seems rather unfair that whenever the latest release needs to be shown to be dead hard, it's always by killing loads of imperial guard and sacking imperial worlds. Why can't we have a modern crusade that shows that whilst the Imperium may receed in some areas, it is simultaneously expanding in others? The Tau seem to be able to walk all over as many Imperial worlds as they see fit, but they never end up with tens of planets being eaten by nids, despite being on the eastern fringe.

As for the Admech, I'd like to keep some of the religious mysticism, but cut down on the ridiculous x is unrepairable, y can no longer be built fluff. I'm sorry, but if the imperium could no longer produce titans, terminator armour, dreadnoughts or any of the other 'irreplacable relics' then it would have run out of them a long, long time ago. The whole point of STC is that these things can be replicated. It's fair enough to say that they are rare, but I get tired of the illogical me-cant-icus approach.

Supremearchmarshal
01-04-2008, 17:32
3). The problem I have is with the lost knowledge concept. In the age of permanent data storage, how do you lose knowledge? Closely guarded secret –yes. Proscriptions on new development-yes. But lost knowledge-nah.

No such thing as permanent data storage. The mentality of the Imperium is much more similar to medieval than modern Earth. Information sharing is discouraged. The medieval lack of communications also has a parallel - it takes a long time plus very special equipment and people to traverse space. Another thing to take into account is that the very size of the Imperium could be a problem itself - a certain blueprint could simply get lost under monumental paperwork. Yet another possibility is deliberate destruction - for example all knowledge of weapons which can lay waste to entire worlds would be destroyed rather than left to fall into enemy hands.

And let's not forget even the modern world has stuff like the missing Apollo 11 tapes.

jibbajabbawocky
01-04-2008, 17:32
I'd add more Dark Eldar Fluff. I want to have a real feeling as to what Comorragh is like. I want to know what life is like there, for a Powerful Archon, a regular Warrior, a Warrior trying to make his name, and the millions of slaves. I want a Black Library book ala Liber Chaotica or Loathsome Ratmen, with lots of In Character details.
I WANT MORE FLUFF, **********!! to paraphrase Blade Runner.

Luckywallace
01-04-2008, 17:37
I generally like all the 40k fluff but this thread has raised a few issues...

The 1000 Space Marines does make sense and would be an effective 'army' used for surgical strikes or specialist actions. What is silly is when a Space Marines chapter (or worse, a company!) is able to halt an Ork Waaagh or Tyranid Hivefleet that is a million-strong. That is stupid, especially when my mob of 20 orks led by a power claw nob can easily kill ten space marines in an average battle.
I thought the book 'Dark Apostle' did a good job of showing that (Chaos in this case) Space Marines are bad ass and can crush enemies one-on-one but against the might of a complete Imperial Guard counter-attack they simply get swamped and overwhelmed.

Also, the 'Cron timeline is just a bit un-necessary. 60 million years ago is not litterally the "Dawn of Time" so why both making it that long ago? The idea of the Eldar existing for SIXTY MILLION years is simply unfathomable. Surely the race would have evolved into something completely unrecognisable by this point. I know the Eldar were always ancient and powerful but that is "silly ancient". The High Elves in Warhammer Fantasy have been knocking about as a civilised society for about 5000-6000 years and that is easily enough to be considered "ancient".
The idea that the War in Heaven ended 65,000 years ago seems much better I have to agree (remember that the War in Heaven may well have been fought for thousands if not tens of thousands of years, meaning that the Eldar as a species could still be easily 100,000 years old).

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 17:49
No such thing as permanent data storage.

They have the ability to copy that data. Therefore it is not lost. Once you move to the "book stage" of technology development technology rarely retrogrades, unless the entire society is destroyed. Other societies may advance faster, but the technology rarely retrogrades, it just goes stagnent.

Having said that, I agree there are a multitude of hindrances to spreading technology, closely held secrets between worlds etc. But its just not a supportable statement that there is no technological development on some worlds. Seriously does, the Imperium keep all those feral worlds feral instead of progressing to higher stages of imperium development?

Deadnight
01-04-2008, 18:10
I'd like to see a few changes to the tau fluff, specifically.

(1) I dont like the direction they're taking the etherials. mind control on other races? Like, it totally went against all the earler fluff (first codex, BFG, CPF fleet roster, Epic). There are better ways to make the tau more "dark".

(2) To my knowledge, bar Aun'shi, the tau have yet to have a proper 40k moment. I define that as backs to the wall, soaked up to their necks in their own blood, and with against impossible odds through sheer grit, stubborness, and a refusal to submit. instead we get shadowsun who defeats a nid hive fleet without losing a ship... not even the Ultramarines plus their whole PDF and battlefleet tempestus could do that, like....

(3) a Depiction of tough, ruthless and callous fire warriors. there is very little of it IMO

So... my change?

SImple really. the tau need a Patton. THey need a good old fashioned 40k "blood and guts" hero. Call him Commander Fury for now. And they need their Behemoth. Or Verdun. Let the nids eat falshi or borkan or something, and let the tau stop them only through sheer grit and resolve. you know... the classic 40k "thing"...

i want the "dark" to come in here. It could be interesting to let this Fury go some way down the route of Farsight. He believes they have a duty to go off and exterminate all possible threats to the tau Empire. Just like the Imperium. No remorse. Obviously, he believes the tau'va should only be shared by the tau and those who could bever pose a threat. and he thinks he's in the right.
Now where it could get interesting is if this outburst would polarise tau society. Have them split in half, like you yanks are over the Iraq war with some for, and some against.
Sum it up with an Etherial Honour duel. Have one say "THe tau'va is our sacred duty. but an ideal and a reality can never mix. THe universe is a grim, dark, and cruel place and we must also be grim, dark, and cruel to survive. the ideal must be protected, and the enemies of the tau'va whoever or wherever they are should be exterminated."
and have the other dude say "Yes, the universe is a grim, dark, and cruel place. But it is because it is this way that the tau'va is all the more important. Here, we shine a beacon of hope against the darkness, and it is our duty to bring this, our light, to all the corners of the galaxy. By our example shall we lead. the tau'va will forge a new age of unity." Or something...
So you get the tau at a crossroads. THey could slip down the route of other 40k races and be all out for themselves. Or they could be the one bastion of light. the young, the hope, the new... Far more interesting IMO than mind control....

Oh, and
(4) kill aun'va and shadowsun. may they never have existed. for once, yeah for retconning!!!

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 18:13
I'd like to see a few changes to the tau fluff, specifically.

(1) I dont like the direction they're taking the etherials. mind control on other races? Like, it totally went against all the earler fluff (first codex, BFG, CPF fleet roster, Epic). There are better ways to make the tau more "dark".

(2) To my knowledge, bar Aun'shi, the tau have yet to have a proper 40k moment. I define that as backs to the wall, soaked up to their necks in their own blood, and with against impossible odds through sheer grit, stubborness, and a refusal to submit. instead we get shadowsun who defeats a nid hive fleet without losing a ship... not even the Ultramarines plus their whole PDF and battlefleet tempestus could do that, like....

(3) a Depiction of tough, ruthless and callous fire warriors. there is very little of it IMO

So... my change?

SImple really. the tau need a Patton. THey need a good old fashioned 40k "blood and guts" hero. Call him Commander Fury for now. And they need their Behemoth. Or Verdun. Let the nids eat falshi or borkan or something, and let the tau stop them only through sheer grit and resolve. you know... the classic 40k "thing"...

i want the "dark" to come in here. It could be interesting to let this Fury go some way down the route of Farsight. He believes they have a duty to go off and exterminate all possible threats to the tau Empire. Just like the Imperium. No remorse. Obviously, he believes the tau'va should only be shared by the tau and those who could bever pose a threat. and he thinks he's in the right.
Now where it could get interesting is if this outburst would polarise tau society. Have them split in half, like you yanks are over the Iraq war with some for, and some against.
Sum it up with an Etherial Honour duel. Have one say "THe tau'va is our sacred duty. but an ideal and a reality can never mix. THe universe is a grim, dark, and cruel place and we must also be grim, dark, and cruel to survive. the ideal must be protected, and the enemies of the tau'va whoever or wherever they are should be exterminated."
and have the other dude say "Yes, the universe is a grim, dark, and cruel place. But it is because it is this way that the tau'va is all the more important. Here, we shine a beacon of hope against the darkness, and it is our duty to bring this, our light, to all the corners of the galaxy. By our example shall we lead. the tau'va will forge a new age of unity." Or something...
So you get the tau at a crossroads. THey could slip down the route of other 40k races and be all out for themselves. Or they could be the one bastion of light. the young, the hope, the new... Far more interesting IMO than mind control....

Oh, and
(4) kill aun'va and shadowsun. may they never have existed. for once, yeah for retconning!!!


Now that would be perfection. Deadknight for the win.

Deadnight
01-04-2008, 18:36
Now that would be perfection. Deadknight for the win.


heh, thanks, but who is this Deadknight? :) Sigh... No one ever spells my name right. THat imposter to my name steals all my credit! :)

seriously though, i think it would be cool for the players. i get an excuse to play the happy clappy tau, or the grim, blooded and battered by war tau. And then the dark, twisted by the violence they have seen, almost evil tau. Caters to a lot of players that want to see different aspects of tau. you can take tau wherever you want.

Plus it finally gives a proper exuse for tau vs tau battles other than "they're on a training mission"...

just so long as shadowsun and aunva choke on cockroaches or something...

Iracundus
01-04-2008, 18:37
Having said that, I agree there are a multitude of hindrances to spreading technology, closely held secrets between worlds etc. But its just not a supportable statement that there is no technological development on some worlds. Seriously does, the Imperium keep all those feral worlds feral instead of progressing to higher stages of imperium development?

Yes, the Imperium actually does keep those feral worlds feral. When feral worlds provide savage bloodthirsty recruits suitable for Space Marine recruitment or failing that, at least Imperial Guard recruitment, the Imperium has no incentive to uplift them. This isn't your "let's make everyone happy and fulfilled and advanced" Star Trek Federation. The Imperium as a general rule does not intervene in a world's development (or lack thereof). The Imperium is only interested in making sure the allocated taxes and tithes are collected. Beyond that, what a world does is largely its own business.

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 18:55
I have to respectfully disagree. Why keep it feral for a few marine recruits when you can raise the technology/production level and make thousands upon thousands of tanks/landraiders/titans/MARS pattern ships of the line? Even if its an ag world a technologically based ag production system is miles better than some middle ages culture that can barely feed itself.

In essence:
Option A: feral: recruits for a chapter
Option B: forgeworld or heavy production: can make the ships, tanks, guns, pods, hawks, dreadnoughts, and pointy sticks for the chapter.

Iracundus
01-04-2008, 19:07
You're thinking like a modern rational science oriented person. That is not what the 40K universe is about. It is not an age of science, rationality, or enlightenment but one of superstition, faith, dogmatic following of ritual and tradition. It is an age with a past (the Dark Age of Technology) that has shown technology fails compared to the human spirit, at least via the interpretation of the 40K era people. The Imperium is not a modern centralized nation state but more a giant confederation of worlds with a few overarching organizations binding it all together. The Imperium does not meddle in individual world government, and Imperial Governors are free to do as they please so long as they meet their tithe quotas.

legio mortis
01-04-2008, 19:09
Yes, the Imperium actually does keep those feral worlds feral. When feral worlds provide savage bloodthirsty recruits suitable for Space Marine recruitment or failing that, at least Imperial Guard recruitment, the Imperium has no incentive to uplift them. This isn't your "let's make everyone happy and fulfilled and advanced" Star Trek Federation. The Imperium as a general rule does not intervene in a world's development (or lack thereof). The Imperium is only interested in making sure the allocated taxes and tithes are collected. Beyond that, what a world does is largely its own business.
I somewhat disagree. The Imperium itslef doesn't keep them feral, it's really going to be up to the governor if he wants to introduce new technologies or try to entice some colonists to settle.

jibbajabbawocky
01-04-2008, 19:11
I have to respectfully disagree. Why keep it feral for a few marine recruits when you can raise the technology/production level and make thousands upon thousands of tanks/landraiders/titans/MARS pattern ships of the line? Even if its an ag world a technologically based ag production system is miles better than some middle ages culture that can barely feed itself.

Because the Imperium already has hundreds of thousands of Forgeworlds and Agriworlds. Why waste the effort to spend generations making a new one? The Administratum is one ofthe main reasons it's the "Grim Darkness Of The Future".

Iracundus
01-04-2008, 19:12
I somewhat disagree. The Imperium itslef doesn't keep them feral, it's really going to be up to the governor if he wants to introduce new technologies or try to entice some colonists to settle.

The governor cannot introduce significant new high level technologies without the approval of the AdMech, and we all know how they try to zealously restrict access to all except their own. While you might get a few instances of ferals interacting with high technology, such as the case in the Gothic Sector where feral natives "sacrificed" metals at sky temples to end up building a Lunar cruiser for the Imperial Governor, that is not the same as actually uplifting a world and its population.

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 19:55
I somewhat disagree. The Imperium itslef doesn't keep them feral, it's really going to be up to the governor if he wants to introduce new technologies or try to entice some colonists to settle.

Do we have any fluff notations where the Imperium does try to keep worlds down in this manner or is that collective conjecture? I mean what if a feral world discovers the steam driven engine-does the Inquisition swoop in and kill everyone?




Because the Imperium already has hundreds of thousands of Forgeworlds and Agriworlds. Why waste the effort to spend generations making a new one? The Administratum is one ofthe main reasons it's the "Grim Darkness Of The Future".

Because it is in the AM’s interest to make more forge worlds and improve the ag worlds. The AM is a union. More forgeworlds mean more union members. AG worlds increase the amount of food for to support

Iracundus
01-04-2008, 20:09
The AdMech even internally is not an open sharing fraternity with peer reviewed papers or data. Individual Forgeworlds do not go around running comparative tests or sharing their designs freely. From the IA books, all attempts to run trials comparing the performances of the various Vanquisher patterns was squashed by the AdMech of the Forgeworlds making the Vanquisher patterns, presumably because nobody wanted to risk having their own variant proven inferior.

Again from the FW books, when confronted with a problem, the AdMech response isn't necessarily the modern one of trying to improve efficiency or otherwise streamline something to tackle it. The AdMech either uses more manpower which is plentiful and expendable, or upsizes the technology (if able) in the belief that more and bigger is obviously better.

Once again you are trying to think in the mindset of a secular rationally minded science oriented modern person, not the medieval styled mindset of the 40K era, and trying to approach the Imperium as if it were a modern nation state. Remember this is the same Imperium that in Dark Heresy has as one of its sayings "Divided we stand, united we fall." The factionalization and infighting within the Imperium's organizations is even viewed as a virtue because of it preventing any one person becoming like Horus and such a large fragment of the Imperium into rebellion.

jfrazell
01-04-2008, 20:24
I'm trying to think-what would a union do.

Whats interesting is that this theory REALLY sets up the concept of forgeworlds as feudal city states-vying with each other for power, tech, and influence. I could see them seeding worlds to "grow" them with new tech and create little (or not so little) admech empires.

Ah the fluff and conflicts you could design with that. I feel a paradigm...shifting...:)

electricblooz
01-04-2008, 20:30
No such thing as permanent data storage. The mentality of the Imperium is much more similar to medieval than modern Earth. Information sharing is discouraged. The medieval lack of communications also has a parallel - it takes a long time plus very special equipment and people to traverse space. Another thing to take into account is that the very size of the Imperium could be a problem itself - a certain blueprint could simply get lost under monumental paperwork. Yet another possibility is deliberate destruction - for example all knowledge of weapons which can lay waste to entire worlds would be destroyed rather than left to fall into enemy hands.

And let's not forget even the modern world has stuff like the missing Apollo 11 tapes.

You do know that the only reason most of the philosophy of the Greeks and the algebra of the Arabs was preserved for the modern was the work of the monks during the Carolingian Renaissance, right? Religious orders are great for preserving knowledge, "Copy that book because it's good for you. But, Master, I can't read it! Who said anything about reading it? I said Copy It!"

chinnfrequent
01-04-2008, 21:27
I would also love it if Imperial Guard were able to win anything, ever.

Agreed. In any piece of fluff (referring to the codices) that reference the guard involves them getting slaughtered. Even their own codex doesn't really mention any victories.

Hellebore
01-04-2008, 22:14
You do know that the only reason most of the philosophy of the Greeks and the algebra of the Arabs was preserved for the modern was the work of the monks during the Carolingian Renaissance, right? Religious orders are great for preserving knowledge, "Copy that book because it's good for you. But, Master, I can't read it! Who said anything about reading it? I said Copy It!"

But they then restricted who got to read it. They may have saved the knowledge of the ages, but they also monopolised it as well. If you wanted to learn that stuff you HAD to go through them first and so they got their hooks into you at every age.

Hellebore

Supremearchmarshal
01-04-2008, 22:33
I'm trying to think-what would a union do.

Whats interesting is that this theory REALLY sets up the concept of forgeworlds as feudal city states-vying with each other for power, tech, and influence. I could see them seeding worlds to "grow" them with new tech and create little (or not so little) admech empires.

Ah the fluff and conflicts you could design with that. I feel a paradigm...shifting...:)

Don't think unions, the Forge Worlds are more like religious orders that keep to themselves. Besides, I'm quite sure that the AdMech has plenty of restrictions placed on it, just like any Imperial organization.

As for Feral Worlds - there are other reasons than SM recruitment to leave them as is:
-perhaps they want to preserve the natural resources or landscape for the time being. Possibly some very rare animals/plants/whatever need very specific conditions to survive and be harvested.
-perhaps the planet is simply too poor in ore or harsh in climate to turn into a factory or agri-world. Remember - factories need money, materials, power and transport.
-perhaps there simply aren't any spaceships, colonists etc. available anywhere nearby at the moment.
-perhaps the Governor, for whatever reason, thinks the planet is doing fine as is. After all, there are still people living on a stone age tech-level on Earth today - often by choice. Add to this a general distrust of technology and it becomes much more feasible.
-perhaps Order #12354456.243 from sometime in M38 prohibits this planet from being developed further. This order was given by the High Lords of Terra and no-one dares to ignore it.

And remember that a Feral World classification doesn't mean there aren't any Imperial facilities there - Research stations could be present, as could various monasteries (including those of the Astartes), the governor's palace. Indeed, such a facility may be the very reason a planet is left undeveloped - perhaps the Imperium wants it to be deemed not worth bothering with, but in reality it holds an Assassin Temple.


You do know that the only reason most of the philosophy of the Greeks and the algebra of the Arabs was preserved for the modern was the work of the monks during the Carolingian Renaissance, right? Religious orders are great for preserving knowledge, "Copy that book because it's good for you. But, Master, I can't read it! Who said anything about reading it? I said Copy It!"

Yep, I sure do. And thats just what GW used as a basis for the AdMech and Dark Age technology.

Grimbad
01-04-2008, 22:40
I'd make the orks have more of a culture. The current state of their culture is simply that they're a bunch of ******** who somehow coexist in order to blow things up and live in corrugated metal shacks. I much prefer the older background that details exactly how the orks construct permanent adobe buildings for their settlements and play sports (like Blood Bowl) and musical instruments (like the Glokenskull) and to a certain extent are tolerant of other races (like Ogryns that go green).

Luckywallace
02-04-2008, 06:30
I'd make the orks have more of a culture. The current state of their culture is simply that they're a bunch of ******** who somehow coexist in order to blow things up and live in corrugated metal shacks. I much prefer the older background that details exactly how the orks construct permanent adobe buildings for their settlements and play sports (like Blood Bowl) and musical instruments (like the Glokenskull) and to a certain extent are tolerant of other races (like Ogryns that go green).

But... the fact Orks are a bunch of ******** who somehow coexist in order to blow things up and live in corrugated metal shacks is what I love about them!

That said, it would be nice to hear more about their sports and music tastes.

jibbajabbawocky
02-04-2008, 12:58
Because it is in the AM’s interest to make more forge worlds and improve the ag worlds. The AM is a union. More forgeworlds mean more union members. AG worlds increase the amount of food for to support
Not really. They have more than enough Forge Worlds to run as is. Also, the AM doesn't really have the authority to claim a world (unless it had large quantities of STCs or other technological marvels) The Administratum would **** a brick of the AM just started building factories and labs on a planet with out first filling out an XW4-10-1b Pink Bordered World Reclamation Form, submitting it to the proper Administratum Office (Submission to the wrong office could result in additional wait time of 4-6 generations) and waiting for the LD-432-08b (564.M38 Revised) World Claimant Consent Form to arrive and be properly filled out and submitted for review... etc. etc.

Skeltergeist
02-04-2008, 13:51
Agreed. In any piece of fluff (referring to the codices) that reference the guard involves them getting slaughtered. Even their own codex doesn't really mention any victories.

That's my issue with the guard, there seems seems to be no mention of any real victories throughout any of their fluff.

Tapio
02-04-2008, 14:04
That's my issue with the guard, there seems seems to be no mention of any real victories throughout any of their fluff.

Yarrick and the 2nd and 3rd Armageddon Wars? Or aren't those "real victories"?

The_Outsider
02-04-2008, 14:32
Yarrick and the 2nd and 3rd Armageddon Wars? Or aren't those "real victories"?

Everyone knows the real work was done by the space wolves.

Tapio
02-04-2008, 15:06
Everyone knows the real work was done by the space wolves.

Too bad they didn't fight in the 2nd War. :rolleyes:

jibbajabbawocky
02-04-2008, 15:21
That's my issue with the guard, there seems seems to be no mention of any real victories throughout any of their fluff.

Medusa V? Imperial Guard came in 1st.

electricblooz
02-04-2008, 15:31
Medusa V? Imperial Guard came in 1st.


Isn't that the whole point? IG kicked but and took names during the MV campaign and instead all you heard about was how smart the Tau were for dropping a rock out of orbit (Orks have been doing it for years), how brutal the attacks of Chaos were, and how stalwartly the Astartes held the lines.

Firaxin
02-04-2008, 15:35
I'd like to see the tau as a timid race, cautiously taking their first steps on a galactic scale, rather than the arrogant-auto-win race they are now.

jibbajabbawocky
02-04-2008, 17:13
Isn't that the whole point? IG kicked but and took names during the MV campaign and instead all you heard about was how smart the Tau were for dropping a rock out of orbit (Orks have been doing it for years), how brutal the attacks of Chaos were, and how stalwartly the Astartes held the lines.

I prefer to have the IG humbly accept their victories and move on. They have a whole Imperium to protect, after all. No time for dilly-dallying.

jfrazell
02-04-2008, 17:44
Ithink the point though is to record some actual victories occasionally. Win some wars. kick some teeth in. There are countless alien races that have assumed room temperature thanks to the guard. Lets see it.

Tapio
02-04-2008, 21:24
IG is made to suck so the Marines would appear more cooler.

"Oh look, a whole regiment of Guard is getting wiped out! They're doomed!"
"No worries, will just send in 50 Marines and they'll be pwning those b*tches left and right!"
"Gee, the Marines rock!"

Lockjaw
02-04-2008, 21:48
don't like that the C'tann and old ones created everything
preferred the brainboyz creating the orks
don't like the ork 'it works because they think it does' crap
i like the sporing to an extent, but i don't like the whole 'orks is fungus" but that's more the fanboys than any official fluff
don't like the dark eldar's lack of fluff
don't like the ad-mech not understanding their own technology, you want a religion centered on technology, that's fine, but they can still understand how a toaster works

Justanotherguy999
02-04-2008, 22:15
Making worlds more technologically advanced benefits everyone, I think. I mean, the Space Marines do still recruit from technologically advanced worlds (the Night Lords, off the top of my head, did so, and I'm sure several other Chapters did as well); the increase in technology would result in increased tithes; and increased ability to detect and defend against alien incursion. From a logical perspective, having a wider base from which to recover technologies is better, so that you don't end up with something lost forever because the only world with the blueprints got destroyed. But I have to agree that that last one doesn't work.

I want the Guard to have more victories as well, but at the same time I think they've undergone severe depreciation. The Guard in general has just been run over roughshod whenever GW wants to make some alien race look tough and evil, and/or use them as 'damsel in distress' for the Space Marines or Sisters of Battle to swoop in and save. Going against that too hard and too fast, I think you run the real risk of just dragging other races down. I think the solution would be to make some use of the identities that're already set up. So, say, the Guard in general isn't terribly formidable - but the Cadians are tough as nails who get the job done. That would work for me. I think that GW does this with Space Marines, to an extent - the real weird, aberrant victories go to iconic chapters, while the ones that have little more than a name and color scheme get torn to pieces. Just so with the Guard.

Before I go further, in the interest of disclosure, my knowledge of the fluff is fairly piecemeal. If I'm wrong about something, it's just a case of ignorance or poor memory. I'm not deliberately trying to misrepresent things. I don't have an ax to grind or anything.

One big thing that I'd like is a sort of "end game scenario." The World of Darkness put out a book to end the old World of Darkness for its various game lines. I'd like to see maybe a book that did something like that for Warhammer 40,000. It would have a chapter on the Imperium, Chaos, the Eldar, Orks, Tau, Tyrannids, and Necrons. Each chapter would have a bunch of "what if [faction] won?" scenarios or something along those lines, exploring what would happen. Like, for the Imperium, one of the obvious ones would be "What if the Emperor died?" Then they could talk about him getting reincarnated, or having the Imperium collapse without him. The Tyrannids and Necrons might not have much to say apart from "everything dies," but I'm willing to admit that that's more ignorance than anything else. Less facetiously, the Tyrannid end game scenario appears to be the everything becomes Tyrannids, and the Necron scenario that they just go to sleep and wait for the larder to restock itself again.

Imperium In General: I admit that I also don't like the idea of losing technology. I agree that if there's stuff around that can't be duplicated, it'd be long gone. But it's clear that in Warhammer 40,000 the setting's in a dark age that's come about after a golden age ended by the Horus Heresy, and the hints strongly point to a similar cycle taking place before. What I would do is to make things instead more about technological stagnation. People don't really do too much research into making entirely new technologies, because they think it's just getting above their station (it'd be the domain of the Emperor or something). But they would maintain old technologies and understand them better. Of course, there would be some technology that would be poorly understood or difficult to duplicate - either because it was that way when the Emperor was alive, or because it's recently been rediscovered. The rediscovery of old tech would be the primary means to introduce "new" technology, and it would be okay.

I'd want the Adeptus Mechanicus to have a vested interest in spreading technology. It could be, at face value (i.e. the reason they give the Administratum), just to ensure the Imperium can defend itself against the Xenos and Heretics. They'd want to have more and more forge worlds to make more and more guns and ammunition to arm the soldiers of the Imperium to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Of course, they'd also have a subversive reason. Maybe they'd think spreading technology pleases the Machine God, and that if technology is sufficiently widespread, it would lead to the Machine God supplanting the Emperor as the primary object of worship. I think that kind of goal helps out a lot overall. It also helps play into the Imperium vs. itself, and makes the danger of the Adeptus Mechanicus less "they're all senile and have no idea what they're doing," and more "they'd sell us out and turn us into slaves to technology if they could."

Otherwise I'm pretty happy with things. I'd like more information about the Adeptus Custodes, or for the Adeptus Arbites to be around more, but I can live with things as they are now.

Space Marines: I think that the Chapters need higher numbers. They can't really withstand any casualties. I read an Imperial Armor book where the Dark Angels lost fully half the Chapter's Marines (maybe more - those were just Marines who fought on foot and didn't count tank crews; it took the Ultramarines 250 years to rebuild after their loss of the entire First Company fighting against Hive Fleet Behemoth, so . . . you know . . .), and that just seemed like it'd brutally compromise their ability to function. And I have trouble with the way they're spread out. Whole Chapters, if memory serves, rarely operate as a single unit. So you've got Marines spread out over huge distances, and the number of fighting troops you have is compromised by the need to crew tanks and ships. Servitors can only do much, and there's no true artifical intelligences you can leave your Battle Barges and Thunderhawks in control of (and the Ultramarines have a huge fleet. They've 120 ships, including 10 battle barges! I suppose they probably have non-Marine, non-Servitor crews, and that not every ship is out in the field at all times, but still). Also, I recall reading an estimate that there's a thousand Chapters each a thousand strong (which, given the general unreliability of all information in the fluff, is bound to be wrong, and between that it's contradicted because many Chapters tend to be understrength like the Flesh Tearers, or overstrength, like the Grey Knights, Space Wolves, and Black Templar and the lists of Chapters lost to warp storms and irreplacable battle losses, it pretty much has to be wrong), that means there's really only about a million Space Marines in the Imperium. I don't think it's enough.

What I'd do is make Chapters bigger. Maybe ten thousand by Codex doctrine, and the standard divisions would tend to just get increased. A company would be one thousand, instead of one hundred, for example. But the ten Marine squad would stay. The non-Codex Chapters would have more, and the ones like the Legion of the Damned or Flesh Tearers would have less. I think this'd help mitigate the heavy suspension of disbelief when you have something like the Battle of Maccrage. Ten thousand Space Marines backed by a planetary defense force, ships, orbital defenses, and so on, makes for a more believable scenario. You wouldn't really need to tweak Marine fluff based prowess too much, either. It'd also help in making it easy to accept how some Chapters, like the Ultramarines, rule over huge amounts of space.

I'd also clear up the Marine augmentation process. There's many instances (e.g. Index Astartes, the 3e rulebook and Marine Codex, the Black Templars Codex) where they're referred to as genetically engineered or genetically augmented, but the actual process makes it seem much more like it's just surgery that augments the changes that happen during puberty and add some new organs. Clearing up where the Marine gets genetically altered in the phases would help. I'd want to get rid of some of the organs, like the Neuroglottis and Betcher's Gland. They seem silly. I think I'd rather make them into something that you could use as optional rules for certain Chapters (so that only some could spit acid and it'd be rule you picked; it'd open up a bit of an opportunity to give more character by further differentiating the genetic profile of Chapters and Successor Chapters; there's big time precedent in the Blood Angels, say, and lesser precedent in the Black Dragons . . . though this could easily backfire), but it's just as easy to leave them where they are and go "la la la la" when they come up.

Imperial Guard: Apart from having some specific armies shown winning more, I'm pretty happy with them. If Ratlings are still around, I'd axe them.

Sisters of Battle: I'm fine with them.

Eldar: I guess I'd want to give them a glimmer of hope. Maybe have them all working towards a way to kill Slaanesh , reclaim the souls of dead Eldar, or redeem the Dark Eldar. Whether they would actually succeed isn't as important as the fact that the Eldar fading away isn't as much a forgone conclusion. I'd probably sever them from the Necrons.

Dark Eldar: I don't know much about them. I guess I'd just see them flesh out more, and I'd make them hate Chaos. Maybe they would also work on how to destroy or subvert Slaanesh, and try to find ways to reclaim the souls of the Eldar (although, they'd just do nasty things with them, as opposed to the Eldar).

Orks: I don't really like Orks. I don't think there's anything wrong with them, per se. They're just not my things. I think they're fun to fight and make a neat enemy. I'd probably want to make their origins mysterious again (or just make them into a species that had once been enslaved by a more advanced race that they've since made extinct, or perhaps they are an advanced race that genetically engineered themselves to withstand some kind of invasion whose alterations had unforeseen results). I'd also want to do away with their fungal method of diaspora, since I think it sort of impinges on the Tyrannids. Their technology would be crude, rather than "it just works." I do like the reactive, adrenaline based growth idea (i.e. the more an ork fights and wins, the bigger and stronger he gets). I'd probably cap it at something like 10 feet, because much bigger seems ridiculous.

Tyrannids: I think that they just need to maybe be dialled down a bit. Thematically, I think they're needed. It's just not sci-fi unless there's some big "bug" race out there that's got no other goals than mindless expansion of the hive. I'd want to make their advance slower. Take away their warp capabilities, and maybe make them tougher to find. The usual way to find out a world's been attacked by Tyrannids, say, would be for a proximal world or settlement to get communications from the embattled world. The origins and numbers of Tyrannids would be unknown. To all appearances, they would simply be an implaccable enemy of unknown origin and malicious intent that cannot be reasoned with. I don't know if I like the Genestealer cults.

Necrons: These guys would need to be dialled down a lot. Thematically, they seem like just the technological equivalent to the Orks or Tyrannids. But there's reflections of humanity in the Orks and Tyrannids. In the Orks, you can see expansionist, savage nature of humanity taken to the extreme and stripped of every noble aspect of humanity. The Tyrannids are our social order taken to the extreme, an entire species as super-organism: the individual is as important to the whole as a single cell is to us. If either were to win against humanity, we'd be wiped out and replaced with something more or less than us. In the ways that Orks and Tyrannids are like humans they are better than humans.

Necrons don't seem that way. They do kind of represent the giving over of flesh completely to the machine, but it seems kind of muddled since they serve the illumi-C'tan-ati. They don't seem to leave much behind. They just scour away all life and leave husks. I suppose it would be too pat if they turned worlds into factories that churned out new Necrons. My personal inclination is to drop them. They don't seem all that neccessary (undead in space!), though you could level that charge at a few other races too. I don't enjoy what they add. Between Orks, Chaos, and Tyrannids, there were enough extinction level threats around. Rubric Marines and Dreadnoughts already seem to have things covered in the 'extreme union of flesh and technology.'

I don't know. I'm at a loss.

Chaos: I think I'd leave them as is. I like the way they are. They're sort of a constant threat that's always going to be there. Not because they're some unbeatable alien race, but because all they really are, at the core, is simple human nature. Chaos is just the poorer parts of our nature given free reign. They're fairly open about this, I think, and that's good. It's not something that needs obfuscation or to be tip-toed around. They're the one faction I'm fine with being explicitly "unbeatable," because you can never really get rid of what makes people go over to Chaos without making them not human anymore. That's not to say they're an "autowin" faction; they're just something that's going to need constant vigilance and constant opposition.

Tau: I like the "dark side" of Tau. I don't think that the conflict between ideal and pragmatism is what I'd like out of them. We got that with the Imperium in spades, and pragmatism won. The barbarity of the Imperium is in part because it is pragmatic. To survive, it is willing to enact Exterminatus and kill anything different than itself because it's not worth the risk to let something different live.

If the Imperium is 1984, let the Tau be Brave New World. If the Imperium is a boot stamping on a face forever, then let the Tau create a happy, blissed out regime. The Ethereals can be the ones behind the mind control, the happy drugs that make Fire Warriors happy to stand and fire while an eight foot tall genetically engineered super-soldier with a giant chainsaw's hacking the other Fire Warriors in the squad to pieces.

Their origin I would definitely change. The six thousand years it's taken them to go from bows and arrows to a technological peer or superior of everyone else doesn't sit well with me. I'd give them a similar timeline to other races. That is, they'd've developped over tens of thousands of years, too. I'd make them rivals with Tyrannids, and an especially large hive fleet and/or reclamation of several Tyrannid worlds acting as a buffer account for their relatively recent appearance "on the scene."

They would still believe in and push for unity. In a lot of ways, they'd be better than the Imperium, but in some ways just as bad.

Skeltergeist
02-04-2008, 22:31
Isn't that the whole point? IG kicked but and took names during the MV campaign and instead all you heard about was how smart the Tau were for dropping a rock out of orbit (Orks have been doing it for years), how brutal the attacks of Chaos were, and how stalwartly the Astartes held the lines.

my point exactly.

Lockjaw
03-04-2008, 01:27
I'd get rid of the C'tan, or just stick them as a background race and make necrons more the robot race then just undead in space, convert worlds into factories, all that stuff, wipe out anything organic

Iracundus
03-04-2008, 16:17
I'd want the Adeptus Mechanicus to have a vested interest in spreading technology. It could be, at face value (i.e. the reason they give the Administratum), just to ensure the Imperium can defend itself against the Xenos and Heretics. They'd want to have more and more forge worlds to make more and more guns and ammunition to arm the soldiers of the Imperium to destroy the enemies of the Emperor. Of course, they'd also have a subversive reason. Maybe they'd think spreading technology pleases the Machine God, and that if technology is sufficiently widespread, it would lead to the Machine God supplanting the Emperor as the primary object of worship. I think that kind of goal helps out a lot overall. It also helps play into the Imperium vs. itself, and makes the danger of the Adeptus Mechanicus less "they're all senile and have no idea what they're doing," and more "they'd sell us out and turn us into slaves to technology if they could."

There are novels out there giving more of a hint on the AdMech's perspectives including the first novel of the Soul Drinkers for example. All in all, people keep trying to approach the AdMech as if they are a modern organization with rational "technology for the masses" viewpoints. They're not. They're about hoarding technology for themselves, and controlling the key means of production on the more vital technologies while grudgingly allowing licensed use of simpler designs in return for materials or other returns.

Above all, the Imperium is post-Age of Reason. To the majority of the Imperium, the Dark Age of Technology failed because of a reliance on technology over the human spirit. That is why technology and advancement is not necessarily prized the way it is in modern society. To the AdMech, such as the Tech-Priest character in the first Soul Drinker novel, the Dark Age of Technology ended because technology was too spread among the masses leading to them fighting among themselves and causing the collapse of civilization. That Tech-Priest's view of the purpose of the AdMech was to recover the STC, recreate an age of technology BUT this time keep it out of the hands of common people.

Skirnak
03-04-2008, 16:38
I don't understand why people dislike Ork technology so much. I don't see what's so wrong about something working because of latent psychic potential...it's not much different to wraithbone, vehicles with bound daemons within them or that psychic power in the IG codex.

Lockjaw
03-04-2008, 16:45
because it's just dumb

Skirnak
03-04-2008, 16:55
because it's just dumb

Care to elaborate?

jfrazell
03-04-2008, 16:57
There are novels out there giving more of a hint on the AdMech's perspectives including the first novel of the Soul Drinkers for example. All in all, people keep trying to approach the AdMech as if they are a modern organization with rational "technology for the masses" viewpoints. They're not. They're about hoarding technology for themselves, and controlling the key means of production on the more vital technologies while grudgingly allowing licensed use of simpler designs in return for materials or other returns.

Not approaching it from that perspective. I'm approaching it from a Middle Ages church / guild structure. They want to keep the tech to themselves, but there's nothing limiting the AM from itself wanting to expand. Thats my point. They don't want to spread technology to the masses, but they want to spread themselves. Every bureaucratic entity wants to expand, even in the Middle Ages (hence the expansion of the church and the foudbning/expansion of the guilds).

jfrazell
03-04-2008, 16:58
Care to elaborate?

2nd edition fluff had it better. Its crude tech but its tech. Its not that hard to make a shoota. The afghanis make them out of shops the size of a store.

Skirnak
03-04-2008, 17:42
Orks - fine, except the bit about them growing to the size of a house is a bit daft.

Orks can grow to around 10ft tall, according to the codex.

Supremearchmarshal
03-04-2008, 17:51
Orks can grow to around 10ft tall, according to the codex.

Isn't Ghazghkull something like 6 meters tall? (in his armour)

tech adept
03-04-2008, 20:04
just thinking about what jfrazell was saying about trying to hoard tech and keep worlds feral. couldn't one of the AD Mechs (unoffical fabricator general only) reason be to make it harder for the void dragon on mars to take over if he escapes. I mean if you happened to find out thats theres something on mars that could make judgement day from the terminator something to deal with later, wouldn't you make sure there are worlds out there that can surive on limited or basic technology (just in case)?

Not for this thread but could the VD also be the reaon the iron men were destroyed I mean where does it say they started the war not us?

azimaith
03-04-2008, 22:41
So I guess it comes down to "Hate the c'tan because they're the c'tan."

If thats the response to anything new in 40k god forbid they add a new race in at all.

We know, only imperials are allowed to ret-con things without people voiding their bowels at the sheer insolence that maybe something did occur before the eldar were zipping around.

The c'tan are a good counter point to the chaos gods and function well as an active evil in the universe harkening to a somewhat lovecraftian "primal" period in the universe.

Chaos is fine and all but its gets a bit one dimensional.

As for ret-cons, get over it, things change. They could add a race in tomorrow that pre-dated the necrontyr by a hajillion years and it would still be fluff, it would just be new fluff.

Orks being the creations of the old ones, fine, their very nature doesn't exactly point towards natural origins. Their use as a weapon is rather fitting. Eldar, same thing, ridiculous psychic powers well beyond what you'd need to develop much less the weirdness of material beings even channeling energy from another dimension.

Necrons shouldn't just pop up from nothing, they need a background and the c'tan provided it. If you want to look at criminally bad backgrounds look at the dark eldar, the space marines, and the orks.

Dark Eldar: "Were evil space elves who run around and do evil stuff because were evil like that. A god our people created wants to eat us which is kind of cool. Oh yeah, we like to torture people because... well because." As if evil elves is something new and amazing.

Space Marines: were hooba jooba super enhanced cyborg monk warriors. Also, we won every single fight the imperium ever had because we are good like that. 3 of us can destroy an entire army because our very presence incites an infectious stupidity on the enemy.

Orks: Were orks, we like to hit things. Without the necrons we'd just be a big green jock who likes to hit things. With them were big green jocks who were created as weapons adding some sense to why we like hitting things.

Remember characterful and good background are not one in the same.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-04-2008, 22:48
Ya know, Azi, I can simplify background too.

Necrons: Waaah! *cut cut cut* We don't live very long and those lizardmen do! Oh, look, let's let beings of titanic power consume our bodies and enslave us forever! Sounds like a great plan!

So there. :p

azimaith
03-04-2008, 22:49
Ya know, Azi, I can simplify background too.

Necrons: Waaah! *cut cut cut* We don't live very long and those lizardmen do! Oh, look, let's let beings of titanic power consume our bodies and enslave us forever! Sounds like a great plan!

So there. :p
Actually thats wrong. Thats necrontyr. The necrons are
010100110110100100101101011101101

Or

"System has performed and illegal operation and must be shut down."

Or

"Hello Dave."

To be honest though, being eaten and consumed by beings of titanic power and the remnants being enslaved is actually pretty cool when compared with green screaming maniacs, evil elves, and super human soldiers, the last 2 of which are done to death.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-04-2008, 22:52
Well, I was trying to talk about their history before they became machines, but hey.

And I'm not sure your binary is a perfect translation... :p

Captain Stern
03-04-2008, 23:30
In 1st and, I think, 2nd edition Orks had either their alien slaves make most of their tek for them or had subject planets pay them a tithe of weaponry/ tek in return for being left alone.

Iracundus
04-04-2008, 00:06
Not approaching it from that perspective. I'm approaching it from a Middle Ages church / guild structure. They want to keep the tech to themselves, but there's nothing limiting the AM from itself wanting to expand. Thats my point. They don't want to spread technology to the masses, but they want to spread themselves. Every bureaucratic entity wants to expand, even in the Middle Ages (hence the expansion of the church and the foudbning/expansion of the guilds).

Such organizations may want expansion, but they also at the same time deliberately set many barriers to joining them precisely so they can hoard. Guilds and professional memberships had their tests and "journeyman pieces" and "master pieces". One didn't join the Church power hierarchy unless one took vows. One doesn't join the AdMech proper unless one has intelligence, aptitude for technical stuff, and also takes vows (and presumably also gets some cybering up). As I already mentioned earlier, even the individual Forgeworlds of the AdMech hoard things and keep secrets from each other.

All of these hinder and do not foster uplifting an entire world and its population which really is tech for the masses. You do not convert Stone Age tribes to tech users without introducing an enormous amount of everyday technology to the final end user and that is not what the AdMech is about.

Tiamat
04-04-2008, 09:44
Having read some of the replies here, okay arguements back and forth, some more mature than others, but I'm still not convinced about the C'tan. I suppose my beef with them is their apparent invincibility and the inevitablity of their victory. I'd like there to be some hope of at least slapping them around a bit.

I mean if they're supposed to be vulnerable to the warp, why is it mere contact with Daemons doesn't dissolve them? Aren't Daemons pure warp stuff given presence in the material realm after all?

Plus the lack of character from their minions. I mean the Necrons themselves, not the entire of the rest of the galaxy they seem to control anyway. Even Vampires and Necromancers have their mortal lackys and less powerfull hangers on.

By reinventing them into the sentient robot/cyborg idea, we provide that character and either do away with the C'tan or make them fallible, which is a flaw they alone, of all the characters and races of 40K, don't seem to suffer from.

Iracundus
04-04-2008, 09:52
Having read some of the replies here, okay arguements back and forth, some more mature than others, but I'm still not convinced about the C'tan. I suppose my beef with them is their apparent invincibility and the inevitablity of their victory. I'd like there to be some hope of at least slapping them around a bit.


In the Eye of Terror campaign, the pylons on Cadia (which are strongly hinted to be the work of the Necrons from the ancient past as part of their Great Work project to seal off the warp) were destroying themselves under the strain of trying to hold back the warp storms from the Eye. In the Medusa V campaign, the Deceiver's forces were trying to build pylons on the planet, again presumably as part of their Great Work, to seal the planet from the approaching warp storm. They were unable to complete enough pylons, and when they tried to construct or unearth a "Great Pylon" of immense size, Orks overran them and tore it down for salvage and scrap. The Deceiver ended up having to write off the planet, consigning the failed "Storm Herald" Necron Lord to witness the scouring of the planet by the warp storm. The key then to prevent the C'tan from winning therefore is to prevent the progress of their Great Work by stopping further pylon construction or destroying existing pylons.

The Necron Codex itself also says the key to defeating the Necron threat is to raid and destroy their tombs, which the other races seem to be doing already, though perhaps not as coordinated an effort as they should be doing.

Tiamat
04-04-2008, 10:29
In the Medusa V campaign, the Deceiver's forces were trying to build pylons on the planet, again presumably as part of their Great Work, to seal the planet from the approaching warp storm. They were unable to complete enough pylons, and when they tried to construct or unearth a "Great Pylon" of immense size, Orks overran them and tore it down for salvage and scrap. The Deceiver ended up having to write off the planet,

I thought it is was a massed assault by Imperial forces supported by Titans that wrecked the big pylon.
In any case, the Medusa campaign couldn't have been written up as "Necrons sweeping everything away" because the Necron players got their collective asses handed to them in the store run mega battles.

Iracundus
04-04-2008, 12:35
I thought it is was a massed assault by Imperial forces supported by Titans that wrecked the big pylon.
In any case, the Medusa campaign couldn't have been written up as "Necrons sweeping everything away" because the Necron players got their collective asses handed to them in the store run mega battles.

I don't recall which race (or races if plural) were responsible for defeating the Necron guarding force and destroying the pylon, but it was definitely the Orks that ultimately broke it down into scrap. If it was someone other than Orks responsible for the destruction, they must have moved on elsewhere.

The Medusa campaign is an example exactly of how the Necrons can be defeated and how their victory is not inevitable. That portion of their Great Work was never completed and now the world is scoured by the warp.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-04-2008, 12:51
It is a pretty specific scenario overall, though. The planet was going to be swallowed up by the Warp if they didn't get their metal arses in gear. But yeah, another strike against the iron zombies.

Iracundus
04-04-2008, 12:55
The Great Work of the Necrons and C'tan is Medusa V but just on a larger scale. Their plan is to seal the galaxy off from the warp, providing an area where their technology can reign supreme and reduce the other races in it to the status of cattle to be raised for the C'tan to feed on. Central to that plan is the construction of these pylons, such as they did on some of the outlying Sentinel Worlds of the Eye of Terror campaign. Like the Cadian pylons, these seem to generate fields that can restrict warp activity, however they are still susceptible to physical attack. If the warp capable races of the galaxy were to prevent the Necrons from finishing enough pylons, or destroying enough complete ones, then their plans wouldn't reach fruition. Now Medusa V's importance in the Great Work isn't known so it could have just been a minor location for the Necrons, yet nonetheless the Deceiver was annoyed at being thwarted by races he considers food and playthings.

jfrazell
04-04-2008, 13:00
Necron-In addition to the timeline retcon and adjustment to make them equal to every other race I'd like to see some renegade elements. These would be necrontyr who retained a semblance of their selves and hunt the Ctan for effectively committing genocide against their entire race. Mayhaps when re-awakening on their tomb worlds some have regained their sense of self and recoil at the horror of what has become the necrontyr. Again the variant ideas would be interesting, and would lend themselves to alternate lists (I'm not certain this current GW strategy of "there can be only one" list will hold for another year-they need more sales and variant lists are a way to do that).

I would like to retcon back in rogue traders and that whole concept of explorator fleets. Inversely I'd like to see more done on the chaos worlds not in the Eye (the Ghoul Stars, Sabbat areas etc.) At least the Abnett fluff portrays many elements that are more separate than just "anti-imperium." Two more lists just waiting to be made.

One other thing. Could we ban the phrase "holy unguents" from any fluff herein out? For some reason that phrase just grates like fingernails on a chalk board.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-04-2008, 13:05
I know what the plan of the C'tan is, more or less, I was just pointing out that the special circumstances of the approaching Warp anomaly made Medusa V somewhat of a special case. The presence and attention of all the races (even if it was just GW's doing so that everyone could take part) made it tougher for them to complete their work, don't you think? In fact, so tough that they didn't.

If they'd only had to deal with one or two outsiders, or better yet were on a dead world like many Tomb Worlds are, their work would have been a lot easier to accomplish, and likely would have succeeded. But I was simply saying that Medusa V was no such ideal place.

Iracundus
04-04-2008, 13:17
The Necrons are not invincible on the battlefield. After all, a Deathwatch team successfully raided into the depths of one of the tombs. If they could do that, they could certainly do so again and so could the Eldar, who are probably the most aware of the threat the Necrons represent.

Also, not all pylons are necessarily on dead worlds. Cadia for example had a living ecosystem yet also had pylons on them with no Necron in sight. To provide the necessary coverage for their Great Work, the Necrons might very well have to built (or will go on to build) on living, even inhabited worlds. These worlds are susceptible to attack, and the Necrons wouldn't have huge entrenched defenses present.

Tiamat
04-04-2008, 14:02
Necron-In addition to the timeline retcon and adjustment to make them equal to every other race I'd like to see some renegade elements. These would be necrontyr who retained a semblance of their selves and hunt the Ctan for effectively committing genocide against their entire race.

Holy Wan Kenobi, thats a good idea! In one move, suddenly the Necron can be cool!

It just makes me want to talk about unguents. But not normal ones, they'd be special, with holes in them, y'know, holy. An Unguent with holes, hmm, what would that be called? :angel:

Damage,Inc.
04-04-2008, 21:46
After taking quite some time off of 40K, I have come back and seen the state that fluff is in now as appalling.

The "Horus Heresy" novels have been very interesting, and I do enjoy them as a more 'adult' form of GW storytelling than the simple 'ubermen fight ubermen' targeted-at-10yo-kid genre that most of the current fluff seems to be. That being said, I always enjoyed the older fluff and was fascinated by the Heresy in the old days. From 'Adeptus Titanicus' to the Heresy board game, that was some good reading.

Actually, I always felt that the 'Adeptus Titanicus' era fluff was the best. Humanity tearing itself apart, brothers turning into traitors, the Traitors and Renegades fighting for or against an ideal, and a few of those at the top or the most powerful ones being daemonically influced while the rest were jsut following along what they felt was the better ideology while the hyper-advanced Eldar would come in to help out but for their own reasons.

Anyway, one of the biggest disappointments to me has been how the Tau were handled in the background. When I left 40K the Tau were just emerging as a new race and still had that 'new car smell' to them where the fluff about them was limited by players accepted that in anticipation of gerater things down the line.

Personally, I always saw the Tau as being a modern military placed into the gothic wars of the far future. The Tau used combined arms tactics much like a modern military force does. Rather than the 'buddhists in space that aggressively take over those that come to close to them' theme, I would have liked to have seen something a little more introspective. Make their darkness an internal strife. I would have liked to have seen the Tau society split into two major factions- the warmakers and the peaceful. Many of the commanders in the warmakers view expansion and aggression as the means to survive in a harsh galaxy, constantly pressing forward into battles of annhilation with anyone in their path. These Tau expand to survive and see diplomacy as being the first acceptance of a slow death of assimilation with alien races. There is a little bit of self-superiority in that these Tau see themselves as more sophisticated than many of the older races and they possess sort of a 'Manifest Destiny' philosphy. Battles of defense are seen as no different than sending in a lightning raid to destroy a new alien colony, burning it to the ground and leaving no survivors. There is no distinction between self defense and wanton destruction to these warlovers.

The Peacemaker faction sees the galaxy as harsh but not uncompromising. Diplomacy to them is more than simple political manuevering and buying time to strike where they please as these Tau truely believe that most aliens will cooperate and accept the Tau philosophy given the appropriate treatment. These Tau are introspective and very cerebral and in some ways arrogant and self assured in their views. To them making war is a brutal affair best left to the other races as combat is beneath them and uncivilized. They think they have evolved past the need for brute force. Ethereals are respected leaders but continue to have their own agendas and compete against each other for control. The Warmakering Ethereals plan the use of military might to attain their goals while the Peacemaker Ethereals try to find subverisve ways of discrediting their opposition and waying the general popluace.

The general populace falls somewhere in between these two extremes with most Tau leaning one way or the other but steaying relatively middle of the road. The Tau military forces are comprised of mostly volunteer forces as the need for security in the Tau Empire is a very real one. Many of the more idealistic Tau that serve become caught up amongst the more bloodthirsty in battles of agression. These Tau must still soldier on even though they do not agree with what is happening, while the warloving Tau are barely held in check by the civilian populace's median stance toward violence.

This all creates a society on the brink of self implosion as the two differing philosophies compete to provide for the safety of the Tau Empire. The tension within the society brews until the point of boiling over and the new Empire faces not only extreanl threats but the possibility of a civil war is not kept in check.

On one side you have the Tau commiting attrocities in the name of protecting their own, on the other is those that are so peaceful they would give it all away.

That's just what I would have liked to have seen done with the Tau.

Justanotherguy999
06-04-2008, 00:31
It still seems a little like putting the Necrons and C'tan up on a higher tier if they only way to really take them down a peg is to, essentially, kick over their building blocks and not let them finish.

'Manifest Destiny' Tau sounds a little too similar to the Imperium.

Damage,Inc.
06-04-2008, 03:16
'Manifest Destiny' Tau sounds a little too similar to the Imperium.


See, the idea here is to play off the two differing ideologies where even those pacifists that want peace must in the end sell themselves and their ideals as the harsh universe crowds in on them with the truth of violence being the only means of preservation.

azimaith
06-04-2008, 06:56
Having read some of the replies here, okay arguements back and forth, some more mature than others, but I'm still not convinced about the C'tan. I suppose my beef with them is their apparent invincibility and the inevitablity of their victory. I'd like there to be some hope of at least slapping them around a bit.
How are c'tan invincible much less have an inevitable victory. Only four remain, the others have been eaten and theres a bunch of ancient weapons that can kill them still floating around. Don't confuse hard to kill with invincible.



I mean if they're supposed to be vulnerable to the warp, why is it mere contact with Daemons doesn't dissolve them? Aren't Daemons pure warp stuff given presence in the material realm after all?

Because they aren't specified as vulnerable to the warp, thats a made up statement. Its stated the warp is anathema to them. Anathema is a noun. An anathema is something loathed, hated, or consigned to destruction. Thus the warp is the anathema and the c'tan hate it, loath it, or consigned it to destruction. Energy weapons hurt c'tan and the warp has massive amounts if not effectively unlimited amounts of energy in it. But the warp is no silver bullet for a c'tan.



Plus the lack of character from their minions. I mean the Necrons themselves, not the entire of the rest of the galaxy they seem to control anyway. Even Vampires and Necromancers have their mortal lackys and less powerfull hangers on.

They're random faceless minions aren't supposed to have character. Lords do have character. Hell most guardsmen don't have any character beyond "Guardsman 1 or guardsman 18381711.



By reinventing them into the sentient robot/cyborg idea, we provide that character

That will just make them space robots. Their race has more character as it is now being the damned remnants of a cursed race whose jealousy led their people to destruction and eventual enslavement at the hands of ancient entities born from the stars. Thats somewhat more character than "Skynet."



and either do away with the C'tan or make them fallible, which is a flaw they alone, of all the characters and races of 40K, don't seem to suffer from.
Er what? How are they not fallible. Their empire was sent reeling by the attack of the enslavers, they went into stasis rather than having the will to stay out and just eat stars for a couple million years because they're bland, only four remain after they were tricked into killing one another, and there are weapons designed to destroy them still floating around in space. How are they not fallible. How much more fallible do you want gods to be? Should they just keel over to joe guardsman's lasgun.