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View Full Version : Vampire Counts Flying Circus *New and Improved*



Roel
31-03-2008, 12:39
Greetings and Salutations to all!

Since the new Vampire Counts have come out, I've been thinking about a old concept, The Strigoi Flying Circus. Up until now, I haven't seen this idea on any forum, but correct me if I'm wrong....

The idea is based upon, like I said, the Strigoi Flying Circus, where 4 flying vampires would strike a unit at the same time. They delivered something like 16 strength 5 attacks, enough to overcome most units. After some thinking I realized that the new rules make this concept even more potent then it already was.

Before I present my army list I'd like to add that I know this is considered a cheesy army. It's more of a thought experiment then a actual concept. I won't be fielding it on a regular basis so that my opponents won't enjoy the game anymore.

Now, for the army list:

The Ringmaster (Vampire Lord)
Flying Horror, Supernatural Horror, Summon Ghouls, Ghoulkin
Sword of Battle, Walach's Bloody Hauberk, Black Periapt, Dispell Scroll
450 Points

Fire Breather (Vampire)
Flying Horror, Avatar of Death (great weapon)
Hand of Dust
200 Points

Lion Tamer (Vampire)
Flying Horror, Avatar of Death (great weapon)
Staff of Damnation
190 Points

Acrobat (Vampire)
Battle Standard Bearer
Flying Horror, Avatar of Death (great weapon)
Dispell Scroll, Sceptre de Noirot
225 Points

The Trampoline (15 Crypt Ghouls)
Champion
128 Points

The Trampoline (15 Crypt Ghouls)
Champion
128 Points

The Trampoline (15 Crypt Ghouls)
Champion
128 Points

Circus Wagon (Corpse Cart)
Ceremonial Fire (Balefire)
100 Points

Circus Wagon (Corpse Cart)
Ceremonial Fire (Balefire)
100 Points

Lion (Varghulf)
175 Points

Lion (Varghulf)
175 Points

Total Points: 1999
Power Dice: 8 + Black Periapt
Dispell Dice: 7 + 2 Scrolls

The performance:
The three ghoul units will be placed in the centre with the Corpse carts in between them. The Two Varghulfs will be placed on the two flanks. All the vampires will join the ghoul units for obvious reasons.

After deployment the Ghouls will make their march move. This leaves only a 16 foot gap between the vampire and the enemy units and thus allows all the vampire to charge a central placed unit in the first turn. This unit will get 5 strength 5 attacks and 9 strength 7 attacks in the close combat fase. In the magic fase I'll be able to do 2d6 strength 5 hits (the hand of dust) and 3 strength 7 and 1 strength 5 attacks (staff of damnation).
The Varghulf's will quickly catch up with the Ghouls (first turn) and allow them to march. The Corpse Carts will (alas) stay a bit behind, but they will still hinder the enemy magic fase.

So, what do you think about this? Will it work as I think it will? And does anybody has a alternative for the Corps Carts? I took them because I didn't know what else to take.

Lantern
31-03-2008, 12:49
Well, I dont have Vampires (yet), but if you wanted to accentuate the flying theme, why not put in some bats and giant bats. Even the Black Coach gets the chance at flying. If, as you say, you can concentrate those vampires and the bats on a single unit at a time (obviously starting on flanks so as to avoid being surrounded). Just a thought.

Necromancer2
31-03-2008, 12:57
I love this idea!! I thought Corpse Carts let the troops march as well.

Lantern
31-03-2008, 13:03
Doesnt the Black Coach also let undead march, due to thier being a vampire on board though? It helps play to theme AND lets the units march

Malorian
31-03-2008, 14:32
The black coach is a vampire, the corpse cart isn't.

I like the idea but there isn't a lot of flying in this list. Really expected to see a lot more giant bats.

One thought I had is that you probaby want the black coach to be the circus wagon and then maybe do the corpse cart as a 'clown buggie' or something.

Sarael
31-03-2008, 17:48
The Flying Circus needs felbats to prevent your vamps from being shot to bits by gunlines (Stand and Shoot means that one vamp gets hit by ALL the shots). Plus, 16" away with a 20" charge means they only need to flee 4" on 2d6 if they choose that... then you're hung out in the open. With several small units of bats and/or wolves, they can elect to charge first, your opponent shoots them/flees from them. You save your vamps from shooting and you allow yourself another chance to redirect your charges if they S&S. If a unit S&S against the bats/wolves, when your vamps charge they can only hold fast...

Sarael
31-03-2008, 17:52
Oh, also, the Staff of Damnation affects a single unit, right? Characters can't form a unit on their own.

Lord Dan
31-03-2008, 18:06
You really shouldn't focus on magic so much. With a 20' move and no other flying units, these guys should be nowhere near your main line. The terror causing lord is an iffy idea to me, since if your opponent flees in terror you're all left sitting in the open for a turn. I'd also give him infinite hatred instead.

In addition, you have 200 point, T4 vampires running around with 5+ saves. I understand the point of this list is to deal so much damage that no one will hit you back, but a 5+ save is borderline suicide (especially considering the number of S4 hits out there). I would at least drop the GW on them, as S5 should easily be enough to punch through most armor saves.

The point about the staff of damnation affecting only one unit is correct, and something to consider. I'm suprised I don't see more combat equipment.

Either way, good luck. This list will either roll your opponent or leave your army in dust by turn 3.

ScreamingDoombull
01-04-2008, 04:06
Just to note, the black coach has alot of potential, but it takes awhile to build up flying and it eats up a rare choice. If you take one, you'd have to drop a varghulf.

I like the list though. Instead of GWs, I'd consider taking the 2xHWs to give your heroes 4 str 5 atks apiece. You might struggle against heavy armor armies, but if you pick your battles well, you'll eat someones face.

vorac
01-04-2008, 04:25
i would opt for hellsteeds for the vampires, it gives you a +1 to armor saves an extra attack and a higher unit strength and you can use a lance

Sarael
01-04-2008, 05:00
I'd take the carts, as their support aspect is invaluable (and if nothing else, they either eat dispel dice or let your GW armed vamps attack first). I guess you could use the Vargs to eat the Stand & Shoot reaction if it comes down to it, but bats are more easily raised. Just more food for thought.

Wickerman71
01-04-2008, 05:31
i would opt for hellsteeds for the vampires, it gives you a +1 to armor saves an extra attack and a higher unit strength and you can use a lance

They would then lose 360 sight, which would really hamper how the flying circus plays.

To the OP; as another poster pointed out the list needs Fell Bats in order to work plus some of the magic kit seems rather less than useful. The old list functioned with 2 levels of magic so your already way up than that with 5. The Corpse Carts would also slow things down, the ghouls are now a min requirment but with the ghoul kin ability your cuting the distance down by 8". Drop the Carts & some of your magicy kit to max out on Fell Bats & then any left overs on Dire Wolves.

Roel
01-04-2008, 14:07
Whoa! Thanks for all the replies, guys. You gave me some stuff to think about. I'll reply to all of the suggestions and then post my revised list. Some questions do raise to mind though, but I'll ask them in the appropriate sections.

Fell Bats
Ok, sounds a good idea to me. I can exchange the two Corpse carts with two units of 5 Fell Bats each (or is 3x3 better?). No problems there.
Sarael: I'm sorry if I'm sound 'noobylike' but I didn't totally understand your sections about charges, charge responces and redirecting charges. Admitted, I'm don't know the rules as good as I should....
Don't you have to declare the charges all at once? If so, the defending player can still shoot at the vampires, right? Or do you mean to say I have to charge with the fell bats and charge with the vampires the next turn? Won't my fell bats be grounded to dust by then, especially if they are shot at?

Staff of Damnation
The book says: "friendly undead models... within 12' of the bearer and in close combat". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see the mention of a unit anywhere. That's why I picked the item, and why I couldn't pick a lot of other cool items :).

Black Coach
Yes, the black coach will let you march (btw, corpse carts indeed don't), but as ScreamingDoombull said, I'd have to drop a Varghulf and free up another 25 points... I'm just not to happy about that aspect. Although the prospect of having a flying chariot really really really appeals to me, I just don't think it's worth it. On average you'll have to generate 33 power dices within 6' of the black coach, which will cost even a magic heavy army three rounds in which his magic fase in limited in range. Alas, as I'm really font of the model and the fluff of the Black Coach, just not worth it in this army IMHO.

Terror - Infinate Hatred
Sounds good to me. I wasn't sure of Terror in the first place, so I'm convinced ;).

Magic
Magic Items Im willing to drop are:
- The Black Periapt
- 1 Dispell Scroll
- The Staff of Damnation
- The Sceptre de Noirot
This would give me 105 points to go around with. Another unit of 5 Fell Bats or some other magic weapons/armour?
BTW, I rather not drop the Hand of Dust, or should I?

Great Weapons
I could drop the great weapons and opt for hand weapon and shield (for added survivability). I would like one vampire to have a great weapon though, in case I face on or two chariots.

Hellsteed
This would be a definite no. Added costs, hampered maneuverability and the fact I give away my tactics before flying out of the units... I know, after one or two games against this army my opponents will recognize in a instant, but the first game I play with it, I really want to see a look of suprise on my opponents face if one of his units is suddenly charged by four vampires.

Well, as I promised, the revised army list would be looking something like this. To keep it short I'll list it in short, showing mainly the changes...

Vampire Lord
Minus Supernatural Horror, Black Periapt and Dispell Scroll
Plus Infinate Hatred

Vampire (unchanged)

Vampire
Minus Staff of Damnation and Great Weapon
Plus Hand Weapon and Shield

Vampire
Minus Sceptre de Noirot and Great Weapon
Plus Hand Weapon and Shield

3x15 Crypt Ghouls (unchanged)

3x5 Fell Bats (added)

2x Varghulf (unchanged)

This would total up to 1994 points. What do you think?

Necromancer2
01-04-2008, 19:02
That's awesome... like someone else said.. you'll either crush your enemies or be dust. Pick your targets and have fun!! the Fell Bats screen your vamps while your Varghulf move up the other side and they have 2 choices which to concentrate on.

Lucky24/7
01-04-2008, 20:26
Dosent Avatar of death kive you both options? Dont have my book with me atm but just asking ?

Dark_Mage99
01-04-2008, 22:33
Hellsteeds have 360 sight, so it would hamper them in no way other than the fact that the bases would be larger. And they can't join units, I suppose.

I don't think you should put hatred on the Lord... it's nice in combat, yeah, but also means he has to pursue and can leave him stranded when his fellow vamps might not be. I think Walking Death would be nicer.... but it's just personal opinion, and food for thought.

anuburos
02-04-2008, 02:15
Characters on hellsteeds do not have 360 sight since they are flying cav models, but they can join units that are not flying units.

So you loose 360 arc to charge, but you gain unit strength 2 per vampire, +1 armor save, and free up some vampire ability points.

Big question- Does a hellstead get barding if you take dread knight?

Sarael
02-04-2008, 04:02
Good question, but I'll have to wait on my book to answer you (I still don't have mine yet, long story).

I would think that if the description of DK says "Barded Steed" then it wouldn't, but if it says "barding for the mount" then it should.

Lord Dan
02-04-2008, 04:49
DK specifies a barded nightmare.

Wickerman71
02-04-2008, 06:04
Great Weapons
I could drop the great weapons and opt for hand weapon and shield (for added survivability). I would like one vampire to have a great weapon though, in case I face on or two chariots.

Best deffence is a good offence; if your going to drop great weapons it should be for two hand weapons.

Sarael
02-04-2008, 10:11
Actually, if the SoD affects ALL undead w/in 12", then I say keep it. I'd keep a 2nd vamp w/ GW too (if not all 3). Bear in mind, the only things your flying circus won't break on the charge are ITPs & Stubborn units. Even against most undead/demon armies, you'll inflict so much damage on the charge that CR will likely see the enemy unit wiped out.

dzungia
02-04-2008, 11:36
Flying cavalry does have 360 degrees LoS and the flying cavalry can join units. Check the "Flying Cavalry" section in the main rule book.

The fell bats cannot save the vampires from stand and shoot. The opponent chooses which unit to shoot at. That makes a 150+ poinst vampire is dead through S&S. But who would use this tactics to charge a bunch of bowmen?!

From the Dread Knight power, you pick a barded nightmare or no barding at all. But I think a 2+ or 3+ armor save is not the problem of this tactic. After the charge of 4 vampires, no unit can survive and the enemy will be trying to save for some pathetic leadership. The problem is, what happens then?

The vampires will chase the enemy and kill them. Then the vampires themselves will be open to be picked up by the enemy. Even if vampires will be behind the enemy line after the pursuit, this tactic is very risky against the armies with some warmachines. Our lord can be shot dead and when the lord falls, all is lost... That is one of the reasons why the terror causing vampires are even more useless. If the enemy flees at the first sight, our vampires will move 20" but the enemy will not loose a single soldier. And because of the general, most probably they will rally in the following turn. At that time, our vampires will be out of a combat so all shooting can be directed to them.

Wickerman71
02-04-2008, 12:51
A Vampire on a Hellsteed is not flying cavalry in the sense that it has the flying cavalry special rule [no mention of the rule in the VC books bestiary]. It is just a mounted character which just so happens to fly; being mounted at unit strength 2 loses 360 sight according to the character section of BRB.

Lord Dan
02-04-2008, 18:01
Flying cavalry do have a 360 line of sight, but do not have a 360 charge arc, which I think is what is most important here.

Xavier
02-04-2008, 18:39
Uh... Units of flyer's have a 360 line of sight, and can thus charge anything they can see in this 360 arc, (all around)

A single flying model doesn't. It has the same arc of sight as any other unit, (aside from single infantry models with us 1 or 2)

Thus, fell bats have a 360 degree line of sight
A model on a hell steed can only see out the front 90 degrees
A flying model on foot has a 360 degree line of sight.

Lord Dan
03-04-2008, 05:45
Sort of. Here's the best way to describe it:

US1 flying model (Vampire on foot, fell bat) has a 360 LOS and 360 charge arc

US 2+ model (Hellsteed, flying monster) has 360 LOS and a 90 degree charge arc

Dark_Mage99
03-04-2008, 09:25
Sorry to hijack the topic, OP... perhaps the line of sight discussion (which I kind of triggered - :() should be taken elsewhere.

Flying cavalry have 360 line of sight.

A Hellsteed is not a monster, it only has 1 wound, and cannot be targetted seperately. Therefore surely it's qualified as flying cavalry. If not, there is no longer a debate because it would obviously have a reduced charge arc.

Roel
03-04-2008, 12:34
Don't be sorry... I got enough feedback as it is. I'll try to make a good army list with all the suggestions and play a game or two with it. If anybody is interested I'll let you know how the games went.

Thank you all guys and maybe it's an idea to move this discussion to the rules forum.

Cheers,
Roel