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Sekhmet
31-03-2008, 22:18
Here's a partial list of human psykers that are currently, or until very recently have been, alive:

Ahriman, Thousand Sons Exile
Coteaz, Inquisitor Lord of the Ordo Malleus
Emperor, no introduction needed
Esarhaddon, heretic (alpha)
Ezekiel, Dark Angel Grand Master Librarian
Gideon Ravenor, Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos (high Delta)
Gregor Eisenhorn, Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos (lower than Ravenor)
Janos Darke, Rogue Trader/Farseer
Mephiston, Blood Angel Chief Librarian
Stern, Brother-Captain of the Grey Knights
Tigurius, Ultramarines Chief Librarian
Torris Vaun, heretic (alpha plus?)


Some, like Tigurius and Mephiston, are claimed to be second only to the Emperor in the Imperium(which as you may imagine, causes a problem as they're both alive, and which doesn't include heretics). Others, like Torris Vaun, used crazy devices to up their power levels. Ahriman uses Chaos to make himself better.

I honestly don't know much about the large majority of the list, but here's how I'd rank them:

Emperor, no introduction needed
Ahriman, Thousand Sons Exile
Torris Vaun, heretic (alpha plus?)
Esarhaddon, heretic (alpha)
Tigurius, Ultramarines Chief Librarian
Mephiston, Blood Angel Chief Librarian
Ezekiel, Dark Angel Grand Master Librarian
Janos Darke, Rogue Trader/Farseer
Gideon Ravenor, Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos (high Delta)
Coteaz, Inquisitor Lord of the Ordo Malleus
Stern, Brother-Captain of the Grey Knights
Gregor Eisenhorn, Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos

Please correct me and add more human psykers. Ahriman is pushing the "human" part, as he's heavily influenced by Chaos. The Emperor is also pushing the "human" part as he's almost a warp god.

malika
31-03-2008, 22:26
I always assumed that Alpha Level psykers were more powerful than most Space Marine Librarians who I assumed are lower level psykers. The Inquisition would simply attempt to terminate Alpha level psykers because they are too much of a risk-factor.

Burnthem
31-03-2008, 22:28
Alpha level Psykers are extremely powerful, and extremely rare. I thought that Ravenor was a Beta level?

Sekhmet
31-03-2008, 22:32
I always assumed that Alpha Level psykers were more powerful than most Space Marine Librarians who I assumed are lower level psykers. The Inquisition would simply attempt to terminate Alpha level psykers because they are too much of a risk-factor.
Yeah, I agree.


Alpha level Psykers are extremely powerful, and extremely rare. I thought that Ravenor was a Beta level?
Ravenor is high delta or low gamma, according to wikipedia.

Norminator
31-03-2008, 22:41
Ravenor is high delta or low gamma, according to wikipedia.

In the books he and others refer to him as the Gamma/Delta level. Considering how powerful he is, that really make you think how unstoppable Alpha would be.

Although when he takes out the Incunabula in Ravenor Returns he probably goes up to about Beta level

Sekhmet
31-03-2008, 22:45
In the books he and others refer to him as the Gamma/Delta level. Considering how powerful he is, that really make you think how unstoppable Alpha would be.


Have you considered what the SM chief librarians can do?
Mephiston overcame the black rage and red thirst... he can fly, he can freeze people through fear, etc.
Tigurius touched the Hive Mind and lived.
Ezekiel can read the thoughts of basically all his opponents on the battlefield simultaneously.
Ahriman channels the warp effortlessly and has even broken into the web way. :eek:


Oh, the rulebook says alpha-level psykers can snap a battle titan in two. I don't think anyone takes that for face value, but that really makes you think.

Captain Stern
31-03-2008, 22:52
Janus Darke should be second on the list. He's a psyker of the magnitude that comes roughly only once every thousand years. Ahriman, with his unparalleled knowledge and artifacts to boost his power, would be 3rd (or maybe even 2nd for that matter). I haven't read anything about Captain Stern post 2nd edition, but to place the Captain Stern of 2nd edition (who banished fully manifested Greater Daemons) lower than psychic gnats like Eisenhorn and Ravenor is insulting...

Sekhmet
31-03-2008, 22:56
Janus Darke should be second on the list. He's a psyker of the magnitude that comes roughly only once every thousand years. Ahriman, with his unparalleled knowledge and artifacts to boost his power, would be 3rd (or maybe even 2nd for that matter). I haven't read anything about Captain Stern post 2nd edition, but to place the Captain Stern of 2nd edition (who banished fully manifested Greater Daemons) lower than psychic gnats like Eisenhorn and Ravenor is insulting...

I read Farseer like 5 years ago, so I didn't remember much about him, except that a Farseer was scared of his power level.

So where would you put Stern, Stern?

Norminator
31-03-2008, 22:58
Janus Darke should be second on the list. He's a psyker of the magnitude that comes roughly only once every thousand years. Ahriman, with his unparalleled knowledge and artifacts to boost his power, would be 3rd (or maybe even 2nd for that matter). I haven't read anything about Captain Stern post 2nd edition, but to place the Captain Stern of 2nd edition (who banished fully manifested Greater Daemons) lower than psychic gnats like Eisenhorn and Ravenor is insulting...

But isn't a lot of banishing chanting words, making hexagrammic wards and fulfilling certain specifications, rather than strength? I mean in Eisenhorn blunts manage to summon Daemons, and I'd have thought banishing them is similar except it involves not getting smashed by an angry daemon whilst you're at it.

Burnthem
31-03-2008, 23:16
It does involve rituals etc, but there is still an immense force of will and psychic might required to banish any Daemon, let alone a Greater Daemon.

Baaltharus
31-03-2008, 23:19
I'd imagine Mephiston while far from the most powerful psyker in the Imperium (as I'm pretty sure hes not an Alpha level psyker) is still ridiculously powerful. I'd certainly say he was more powerful than Tigerius and probably even Ahriman (certainly in game terms neither is a match for the Lord of Death). Ahriman would be below any Alpha level psyker in my mind not being one himself. While Ahriman is certainly a powerful figure the ruination of the Thousand Sons was far from simply his doing but a might cabal of sorcerors pooling their collective might (and even then they couldn't fully manage what they aimed to do).

Wraith
31-03-2008, 23:31
Alpha + level psychers have been depicted as exhibiting more 'power' than any of the names on that list even the Emperor. The Emperor's powers are never really depicted in any great details however leading to ideas about him using them subtly. They truly are obscene in ability but often they're insane meaning for such individuals they have power but only meagre ability to direct it to any end.

Ravenor obviously becomes much better than his initial Gamma/Delta assessment as his life continues.

Ahriman's sorcery maybe very powerful but that doesn't necessarily equate to psychic power. This leads to a debate surrounding the difference between psychic mastery and sorcery in 40K.

Captain Stern
31-03-2008, 23:37
But isn't a lot of banishing chanting words, making hexagrammic wards and fulfilling certain specifications, rather than strength? I mean in Eisenhorn blunts manage to summon Daemons, and I'd have thought banishing them is similar except it involves not getting smashed by an angry daemon whilst you're at it.


A big part of what I don't like about the new crop of 40k background is this significant increase in psychic free banishing and (to a lesser extent) summoning of daemons. While this was indeed present in the older background, it was debatable as to how effective it was. I always felt that it was supplimentary at best or part of the superstition of the Imperium at worst. Now you get minor psykers like Eisenhorn drawing upon the 'faith' of a preacher to bind a daemon prince... (Eisenhorn). In the older stuff (2nd edition mainly) it was pretty much a given that, first and foremost, psychic might was needed to combat daemons, and that's what I base my claim on when I talk about Stern. Let's be clear though, this is all based on my knowledge of the older stuff on the Grey Knights. I don't know much about the new material, and the little I do know I don't much like. But let's not go off topic...



Sekhmet: So where would you put Stern, Stern?
I'm not sure. We don't really know enough. We know that he's a captain of the super elite, all psychic force, created to fight daemons; that he's banished at least one highly senior Daemon Prince of Tzeentch and a high likelyhood that he's banished several of them. Granted, each time he fought them he did so with the aid of 4 other Grey Knights (presumably), but the GKnights are anti-daemon 'troubleshooters' rather than 'gladiators' if you know what I mean? It's not supposed to be an even fight. So again, it's not clear. Personally, I think it would be conservative to place him alongside a formidable Chief Librarian... :eyebrows:

Another interesting one for your list would be Njall Stormcaller. We know that he single handedly banished a Bloodthirster AND right afterwards destroyed a Chaos Army with a 'psychic storm'. He's obviously no slouch. I suppose we could make a comparison between him and Stern but it wouldn't be easy. Stormcaller banished a Greater Daemon by himself AND destroyed an army with his powers. However, we know that the Daemon Prince Stern fought and beat, M'kachen, was almost certainly FAR more powerful than that particular Bloodthirster.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 00:34
Alpha + level psychers have been depicted as exhibiting more 'power' than any of the names on that list even the Emperor. The Emperor's powers are never really depicted in any great details however leading to ideas about him using them subtly. They truly are obscene in ability but often they're insane meaning for such individuals they have power but only meagre ability to direct it to any end.

On the contrary, we have 2 examples - 1 from the 'old'/awesome 40k (sorry :p) and 1 from the 'new'/HH novels/Sabretooth 40k - of how the Emperor is leagues ahead these so called alpha + psykers:

Old 40k: The power unleashed at Horus to obliterate his very being and drive off the 4 Chaos Gods was equated to a supernova. Of course this did 'burn him out' (literally) but he still did it AND lived (kinda).

New40k: In the novel Legion by Dan Abnett John Grammaticus recollects the time when he shook hands with the Emperor and saw: "...why the Emperor was a force to be reckoned with: a psyker of towering, unimaginable strength, not really human at all by any contemporary measure of the fact."

Bear in mind that in Eisenhorn (and isn't Dan Abnett the originator of the Alpha, Beta.... system?) dozens if not hundreds (I can't remember how many exactly )of Alpha psykers had been captured and neutralized by an Imperial Crusade. The primary antagonist of that series had captured and neutralized hundreds if not thousands of them. They were powerful, yes, but compared to the Emperor, the primarchs et al? No where near.


Ravenor obviously becomes much better than his initial Gamma/Delta assessment as his life continues.

Was Ravenor a latent Delta (meaning that he was Delta even when latent) or a latent with the possibility to achieve Delta status (and a little more)? I can't remember. If it's the latter and he just keeps on getting more and more powerful indefinitely through discipline then it'sa plot device isn't it? :mad:


Ahriman's sorcery maybe very powerful but that doesn't necessarily equate to psychic power. This leads to a debate surrounding the difference between psychic mastery and sorcery in 40K.

Much like discipline and will power, I've always seen sorcery in 40k as one of the many means to boost ones psychic powers beyond its basic power 'level'. It's also, clearly, the most effective way (and, of course, the most dangerous). Ahriman was the Thousand Sons Chief Librarian. While he may not have been a psyker of the highest order to begin with, when you take into account all the knowledge and artifacts he must have accumulated over the last 10,000 years, along with his almost unparalleled ambition, drive, intellect, status, resources and not forgetting the patronage of Tzeenth (the god of sorcery himself) then I can't think of many more formidable entities in 40k. While I'm aware I've harped on a bit about 2nd edition in this thread, I must mention that... in 2nd edition background the Eldar were absolutly terrified that he'd ever find his way in to the webway and gain access to the Black Library. They knew that if he did they didn't have the power to stop him.

Lord Cook
01-04-2008, 00:37
There's no way Esarhaddon should be as high on that list as he is. He was very powerful, but he never held a candle next to someone like Tigurius.

Indicentally, there's some doubt as to what power level Ravener actually is.

When Ravenorr asked Orfeo Culzean to lower his null shield, Culzean said "Why would I want to do that?" describing Ravenor as an Alpha-plus psyker. Culzean was a genius, and he wouldn't make such an amateurish mistake.


The Emperor's powers are never really depicted in any great details however leading to ideas about him using them subtly.

Whenever faith in the Emperor brings tangible benefits, such as the various living saints, that is (in theory) the Emperor exercising his power across the galaxy to influence local events.

Norminator
01-04-2008, 00:41
Bear in mind that in Eisenhorn (and isn't Dan Abnett the originator of the Alpha, Beta.... system?) dozens if not hundreds (I can't remember how many exactly )of Alpha psykers had been captured and neutralized by an Imperial Crusade. The primary antagonist of that series had captured and neutralized hundreds if not thousands of them. They were powerful, yes, but compared to the Emperor, the primarchs et al? No where near.


They capture just over 30, none of which were done by Eisenhorn (who as far as I can remember doesn't capture any Alphas other than helping get those who escape). They are incredibly powerful, to the point of mind-slaving hundreds of civilians to mindless attack the Inquisition team hunting them down, and effectively turning the entire Hive city into a warzone.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 00:45
Wasn't Inquisiitor Heldane way more powerful than both Eisenhorn and Ravenor? For that matter, wasn't the same true of Commodus Voke? Best to just strike Eisenhorn off the list really...

Norminator
01-04-2008, 00:47
Wasn't Inquisiitor Heldane way more powerful than both Eisenhorn and Ravenor? For that matter, wasn't the same true of Commodus Voke? Best to just strike Eisenhorn off the list really...

I don't know about Ravenor, but he was definitely stronger than Eisenhorn. Eisenhorn wasn't really that good a psyker TBH, more of a genius strategist/investigator and skilled fighter. And of course, towards the end, willing to go far further than anyone else.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 00:49
There's no way Esarhaddon should be as high on that list as he is. He was very powerful, but he never held a candle next to someone like Tigurius.


I'm pretty sure Alpha level psykers are beyond SM Chief Librarians. It says somewhere that the highest you can be is like Delta before going insane or something. Unless you're the Emperor or Chaos.

Norminator
01-04-2008, 00:50
I'm pretty sure Alpha level psykers are beyond SM Chief Librarians. It says somewhere that the highest you can be is like Delta before going insane or something. Unless you're the Emperor or Chaos.

I think that Tigurius' strength isn't so much in his pure power but rather his mastery of what he has. His looking into the Hive Mind wasn't so much him being crazily powerful, but having the resolve and will to stay sane.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 00:52
They capture just over 30, none of which were done by Eisenhorn (who as far as I can remember doesn't capture any Alphas other than helping get those who escape). They are incredibly powerful, to the point of mind-slaving hundreds of civilians to mindless attack the Inquisition team hunting them down, and effectively turning the entire Hive city into a warzone.

I said they were captured by the Imperial Crusade. Yes, they were incredibly powerful, but small fry next to the big boys. The fact that they were captured in such numbers (and there can't be that many of them) in this instance and even more tellingly in the 2nd instance I mentioned goes to show that they're not in the same league as the uniquely powerful such as the Emperor.

Norminator
01-04-2008, 00:54
I said they were captured by the Imperial Crusade. Yes, they were incredibly powerful, but small fry next to the big boys. The fact that they were captured in such numbers (and there can't be that many of them) in this instance and even more tellingly in the 2nd instance I mentioned goes to show that they're not in the same league as the uniquely powerful such as the Emperor.

No, I'd quite agree with you there - the Emperor in most instances is far, far beyond Alpha-plus level. Hell, he feeds on their souls :p

Lord Cook
01-04-2008, 00:54
They capture just over 30, none of which were done by Eisenhorn (who as far as I can remember doesn't capture any Alphas other than helping get those who escape). They are incredibly powerful, to the point of mind-slaving hundreds of civilians to mindless attack the Inquisition team hunting them down, and effectively turning the entire Hive city into a warzone.

And controlling a bunch of gawping local civilians is obviously equal to staring into the depths of the Hive Mind and escaping intact? :eyebrows: No character in the Eisenhorn or Ravenor books is worthy of being on that list, alongside men like Tigurius and Mephiston. They're much better characters, but neither of those trilogies is about super humans and galaxy-shattering heroes. They're about the work of day to day inquisitors (albeit highly successful ones) operating in Segmentum Obscurus, Scarus sector, Helican sub-sector, mostly on the primary worlds at Thracian Primaris and Gudrun, and often in the surrounding area. The strength of the books is that they offer what is IMO the best look at day to day life in the Imperium we have available. They show the lives of ordinary individuals on ordinary worlds, where most of the time all we see is hell-blasted war zones being fought over by super humans and galactic monsters.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 01:15
I'm pretty sure Alpha level psykers are beyond SM Chief Librarians. It says somewhere that the highest you can be is like Delta before going insane or something. Unless you're the Emperor or Chaos.

As a rule I'd agree with you. On the other hand Chief Librarians are individuals and so no doubt their individual powers vary from chapter to chapter. Also chapters probably differ in their willingness to train up a riskily powerful psyker. What if, say, the Space Wolves - a more honorable than most chapter (uniquely so in 2nd edition) - had a promising candidate with a latent alpha rating that passed all their tests and exhibited extraordinary will power? Wouldn't they train him? Njall Stormcaller actually fits the picture ever so slightly. You only have to look at his exploits that I've already mentioned and the fact that he had chief librarian powers on the TT even when he wasn't of that rank... If not Alpha then certainly quite high.

UPDATE:

I think it's a mistake to dismiss Heldane. I think Abnett took pains to paint him as a formidable psyker in a series that admirably stayed away from making its good guys too powerful. If he wasn't ultimately more powerful than Ravenor (I personally think he was) I think he was definitely more naturally powerful. Also let's not forget him in 'Tanith First and Only':
When he died the psychic power unleashed atomised the land leviathan he was in.

Chaplain of Chaos
01-04-2008, 02:01
I would say that from what i've picked up their is Psychic Power and then their is Psychic Expireance/Discipline.

Now power without discipline is still good, but a weaker psycher with more expireance could still defeat a more powerful one. Thats how I always saw it.

I view Sorcery as the augmentation of ones natural strength with ritual and arcane lore.

I always view the rituals used in binding and banishing demons as more belief than anything that inherent in the ritual itself. Demons are beings of the warp and the warp is a place where will is more important than any material force.

Imperialis_Dominatus
01-04-2008, 02:09
I'm in the camp with Mephiston being the most powerful trained and accepted psyker in the Imperium; more powerful stuff is killed (or they make the attempt to...) because they're too dangerous. He's also reached his full psychic potential, which is probably more than any but the most powerful psykers can say.


No, I'd quite agree with you there - the Emperor in most instances is far, far beyond Alpha-plus level. Hell, he feeds on their souls :p

Haha, yeah.


a Farseer was scared of his power level.

...

Chaplain of Chaos
01-04-2008, 02:15
It's Over 9000!

Razadyne
01-04-2008, 03:57
Not a single mention of Magnus, pre-heresy or post-heresy.

If we're counting Space Marines, both flavors, might as well at least mention the Primarchs. I don't regard Space Marines to be human, and the Emperor hardly counts as one either. Even when given the benefit of the doubt.

Lord Cook
01-04-2008, 04:03
It's Over 9000!

--Sigh-- How did I know we'd get that quote sooner or later? ;)

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 04:04
Not a single mention of Magnus, pre-heresy or post-heresy.

If we're counting Space Marines, both flavors, might as well at least mention the Primarchs. I don't regard Space Marines to be human, and the Emperor hardly counts as one either. Even when given the benefit of the doubt.

I thought it was because it went without saying that the primarchs, and Magnus in particular, were second only to the Emperor in psychic might?

Avaron
01-04-2008, 05:34
Several times in the ravenor books he is refered to as alpha level but its usualy by non psykers those who know them rate him much lower. its like a small child who belives there father is the strongest guy in the world they dont know how much stronger others might be so they just see him as at the top.

Alpha level psykers are a strange lot and alpha + are even worse. The number that are strong enough to weild there powers without looseing all control and going insane is very low.

now that said ravenor is not the strongest though he is a very balanced and sane psyker especialy considering his situation.

as for most powerful thats though to tell some have powers that dont effect the outside world but enhance there own speed and abilits. others are powerful telekinetics or telepaths so power is difficult to judge.

From your list I would say
Ahriman is first 10,000 years ago he was the second most powerful psyker in the most psychicly powerful chapter in the imperium of man. Now ten thousend years later he has only grown more powerful can he snap a titan in half...not sure but he can and dose strike fear into the hearts of a conclave of the most powerful eldar psykers in the galaxy and constantly feeds magical power into his proxies in dozens of cults across the galaxie at the same time.

Second on that list Mephiston. his powers are focused on biomancy enhanceing his own powers and fighting prowess. he is also though to possess his primarchs ability to see the future. we never really get storys of his powers simply because no one has ever been dumb enough to push him.

I belive that most if not all chief librarians are alpha class but unlike the insane ones they are under compleat control of there powers and understand that to draw as strongly upon there powers as nessesary to do cirtain things without attracting the attention of demons is nearly impossible especialy under battle conditions.

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 06:42
On the contrary, we have 2 examples - 1 from the 'old'/awesome 40k (sorry :p) and 1 from the 'new'/HH novels/Sabretooth 40k - of how the Emperor is leagues ahead these so called alpha + psykers:

Old 40k: The power unleashed at Horus to obliterate his very being and drive off the 4 Chaos Gods was equated to a supernova. Of course this did 'burn him out' (literally) but he still did it AND lived (kinda).

Some things need to be taken with a grain of salt. The line in question is:
"He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun."

Were that literally true, the whole battlebarge would have been destroyed, not to mention the nearby Terra and Luna. Methinks it's a bit of the old "metaphor" or "artistic licence" at work...

Anyone inclined to take that story 100% literally should also keep in mind an earlier sentence, which says that the clash of the Emperor's and Horus' weapons unleashed "[e]nergies potent enough to level planets". Those are pretty powerful lightning claws then. I wonder why it's no longer so powerful for Abaddon....


New40k: In the novel Legion by Dan Abnett John Grammaticus recollects the time when he shook hands with the Emperor and saw: "...why the Emperor was a force to be reckoned with: a psyker of towering, unimaginable strength, not really human at all by any contemporary measure of the fact."

How many powerful psykers has this guy met? Who is he comparing the Emperor to? And so on....


Whenever faith in the Emperor brings tangible benefits, such as the various living saints, that is (in theory) the Emperor exercising his power across the galaxy to influence local events.

Of course it is. :eyebrows:

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 07:06
Some things need to be taken with a grain of salt. The line in question is:
"He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun."

Were that literally true, the whole battlebarge would have been destroyed, not to mention the nearby Terra and Luna. Methinks it's a bit of the old "metaphor" or "artistic licence" at work...

Of course, it's never metaphor or artistic licence when the feats of Eldar are discussed, or anyone other than the Emperor and the Primarchs for that matter. The battle was fought on many levels: Psychically, physically and spiritually. The psychic supernova laser was probably directed at Horus' psychic/ warp self. The Chaos Gods were driven away by this, remember. They dwell in the warp not the material universe. Ergo, we can ascertain that the psychic bolt/laser was, primarily at least, an attack unleashed in the warp/immaterium. Earth, Luna, the ships et al remain safe. Makes sense.


Anyone inclined to take that story 100% literally should also keep in mind an earlier sentence, which says that the clash of the Emperor's and Horus' weapons unleashed "[e]nergies potent enough to level planets". Those are pretty powerful lightning claws then. I wonder why it's no longer so powerful for Abaddon....

Because it's not Horus using it anymore.



How many powerful psykers has this guy met? Who is he comparing the Emperor to? And so on....

He's met more than almost anybody in the universe. He's thousands of years old and been everywhere. He also works for the 'cabal': the remnants of the most powerful aliens left in the universe aka (arguably) the Old Ones. Apparently, the chief of this ultra exclusive group considers the Emperor alone as the only being belonging to the human race worthy to join their leadership.

Varath- Lord Impaler
01-04-2008, 07:10
Actually i'd say the Imperium uses psykers alot more than people think, and basically the closer you get to Terra, the more powerful they are.

Im sure a good number of the leaders of the Terran defence are alpha level psykers. Ones who are in control of their powers.

I want more about the humans rather than marines. Consider in the Imperium one of the most feared of all institutions is the ordo Assassinorum. These are only humans, not marines.

I think that there are alot of powerful psychic users in the Imperium.

How bout Agun Soric? Beta level.

Or pater sins children? Alphas.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 07:17
So wait, more info on this John Grammaticus?

If the Emperor could level planets with a blow or fire psychic supernova lasers, don't you think he would've used those abilities earlier to attack the fleet?

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 07:18
I've just read that passage from ROC. It actually doesn't say that the 'energies potent enough to level planets' come from the combat through weaponry/ the physical struggle. It's a seperate sentence.

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 07:20
Of course, it's never metaphor or artistic licence when the feats of Eldar are discussed, or anyone other than the Emperor and the Primarchs for that matter. The battle was fought on many levels: Psychically, physically and spiritually. The psychic supernova laser was probably directed at Horus' psychic/ warp self. The Chaos Gods were driven away by this, remember. They dwell in the warp not the material universe.

My simple point was that a psychic bolt said to be "more destructive than an exploding sun" should be taken with a grain of salt. Particularly when it occurs in a story where the weapons Horus and the Emperor are using apparently have enough power to level planets.

As an aside, if you take a look at the posts I've made in the past, you'll note I'm more than willing to argue for metaphoric interpretations where appropriate when it comes to, say, the Chaos Gods, the Eldar pantheon, the C'tan, and so forth.


Because it's not Horus using it anymore.

Oh right, of course, I forget that the power-output of a lightning claw varies depending on who's using it.....

So, you really think that Horus' lightning claw had the power to "level planets" when he used it, but it's just a powerful hand-to-hand weapon for Abaddon?

Suit yourself, I guess.


I've just read that passage from ROC. It actually doesn't say that the 'energies potent enough to level planets' come from the combat through weaponry/ the physical struggle. It's a seperate sentence.

In any case, it's absurd if taken literally. Whatever was going on aboard Horus' battlebarge, if "energies potent enough to level planets" were being unleashed, there wouldn't be any battlebarge left.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 07:21
So wait, more info on this John Grammaticus?

If the Emperor could level planets with a blow or fire psychic supernova lasers, don't you think he would've used those abilities earlier to attack the fleet?

Unleashing the psychic supernova is what put him in the Golden Throne. All the attacks open to him that were lesser in magnitude would have been countered and neutralized by Horus who was by then powerful enough to do so.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 07:28
Unleashing the psychic supernova is what put him in the Golden Throne.

Really? I thought that was Horus beating the Emperor to a pulp.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 07:30
My simple point was that a psychic bolt said to be "more destructive than an exploding sun" should be taken with a grain of salt. Particularly when it occurs in a story where the weapons Horus and the Emperor are using apparently have enough power to level planets.

As an aside, if you take a look at the posts I've made in the past, you'll note I'm more than willing to argue for metaphoric interpretations where appropriate when it comes to, say, the Chaos Gods, the Eldar pantheon, the C'tan, and so forth.



Oh right, of course, I forget that the power-output of a lightning claw varies depending on who's using it.....

So, you really think that Horus' lightning claw had the power to "level planets" when he used it, but it's just a powerful hand-to-hand weapon for Abaddon?

Suit yourself, I guess.



In any case, it's absurd if taken literally. Whatever was going on aboard Horus' battlebarge, if "energies potent enough to level planets" were being unleashed, there wouldn't be any battlebarge left.

I think perhaps you've misunderstood me and it's probably my fault because of my posting too early and my constant revisioning. I argued that those world shattering (nothing to do with the physical combat if you read it properly), star exploding forces were unleashed in the warp and not in the 'materium'. I don't think there's anything absurd in that, especially considering Grammaticus' words concerning the Emperor in the new 40k, where he's actually a toned down version of what he was.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 07:35
Really? I thought that was Horus beating the Emperor to a pulp.

http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

You can read it for yourself there. It's the part on the right in italics.

Avaron
01-04-2008, 07:41
the more I read 40K fiction the more I am convinced that there are two diffrent but similar psyker rateing systems. one is used by the avarage person, the imperial guard, planatery clerks, and other people who consider things like a bane blade a powerful weapon.

The other is used by those like the inquisition, space marines, and others who regularly deal with individuals capable of feats most would consider impossible.

the first group would rate someone like ravenor a alpha + class and someone like soric beta the second would rate ravenor delta and soric so low as to not be considered a threat.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 07:59
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

You can read it for yourself there. It's the part on the right in italics.

"A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone."

"His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers."

"surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him."

"Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine."

Looks to me like the Emperor was dying long before he tried his psychic supernova laser. And it doesn't say that the act of using the laser is what kills or mortally wounds him, it's just the Emperor finally not holding back.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 08:08
"A lightning claw cuts the Emperor's armour as if it were cloth, sheers through flesh and bone."

"His claws take the Emperor across the throat, opening windpipe and jugular. Another blow severs the tendons on his wrist, causing the sword to drop from nerveless fingers."

"surge of energy seers the Emperor's face, melting the flesh till it runs, bursting an eyeball, setting his hair alight. The Emperor stifles a whimper, wonders how he can be losing. Blackness threatens to engulf him."

"Horus grasps his wrists, splintering bones. Blood pumps from the Emperor's throat. Horus lifts his foe above his head and brings him down across his knee, breaking his spine."

Looks to me like the Emperor was dying long before he tried his psychic supernova laser. And it doesn't say that the act of using the laser is what kills or mortally wounds him, it's just the Emperor finally not holding back.


Ahh yes... I forgot. That's on the NEXT page which is sadly not on the net as far as I'm aware...

It says:

"But the Emperor had over extended his own powers, for no man of living flesh could act as the vessel for so much power and survive. The charred husk of the Emperor fell to the ground amidst a pall of smoke and darkness." ROC The Lost and the Damned page 184.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 08:14
Ahh yes... I forgot. That's on the NEXT page which is sadly not on the net as far as I'm aware...

It says:

"But the Emperor had over extended his own powers, for no man of living flesh could act as the vessel for so much power and survive. The charred husk of the Emperor fell to the ground amidst a pall of smoke and darkness." ROC The Lost and the Damned page 184.

Oh I see.

He was dying anyway. He might've survived had he not been mortally wounded, since he's no "man of living flesh" with any stretch of the imagination.

Burnthem
01-04-2008, 09:01
I think that the level system of 'Alpha, Beta,' etc etc is a bit of a simplification, as psychic powers can vary in ability so widely, one Beta Level Psyker might be able to immolate a building at a moments thought but struggle to pick up a pencil with his mind. An Alpha level may be able to throw Titans around but can't light a candle, or read somebodies mind.

Just becuase they are Alpha or Beta level doesnt mean they're some kind of all-conquering uber-psyker, thier talents may be so subtle or completely random that you don't notice.

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 09:22
I think perhaps you've misunderstood me and it's probably my fault because of my posting too early and my constant revisioning. I argued that those world shattering (nothing to do with the physical combat if you read it properly), star exploding forces were unleashed in the warp and not in the 'materium'. I don't think there's anything absurd in that, especially considering Grammaticus' words concerning the Emperor in the new 40k, where he's actually a toned down version of what he was.

Assuming for a moment that it's even coherent to speak of powers powerful enough to obliterate planets being unleashed in the Warp and not realspace (there aren't any planets in the Warp for the comparison to be meaningful), it doesn't help us compare the Emperor against other human psykers. If the power is being utilised in the warp, there's no way to measure it against other psykers whose effects we only see in the materium. Other human psykers could be unleashing much more powerful in the warp. All we can go by is their effects on realspace, which it must be said often sound more impressive than the Emperor's.

And for the purposes of the original topic, it might be worth considering the Apex Twins (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/), who are apparently even beyond Alpha grade, capable of breaking out of the most powerful psi-shielding the Imperium has to offer: a Blackship, and then Nemisis Tessera itself.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 09:29
Assuming for a moment that it's even coherent to speak of powers powerful enough to obliterate planets being unleashed in the Warp and not realspace (there aren't any planets in the Warp for the comparison to be meaningful), it doesn't help us compare the Emperor against other human psykers. If the power is being utilised in the warp, there's no way to measure it against other psykers whose effects we only see in the materium. Other human psykers could be unleashing much more powerful in the warp. All we can go by is their effects on realspace, which it must be said often sound more impressive than the Emperor's.

And for the purposes of the original topic, it might be worth considering the Apex Twins (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/), who are apparently even beyond Alpha grade, capable of breaking out of the most powerful psi-shielding the Imperium has to offer: a Blackship, and then Nemisis Tessera itself.

Wouldn't the most powerful psi-shielding the Imperium has to offer be standing handcuffed next to a pariah like Alizabeth or Jurgen... or a Culexus?

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 09:41
Wouldn't the most powerful psi-shielding the Imperium has to offer be standing handcuffed next to a pariah like Alizabeth or Jurgen... or a Culexus?

Quite possibly. You'd expect Nemesis Tessera in particular to have plenty of Blanks and Pariahs around to act as security for all those captured psykers. And given the huge numbers of powerful psykers the Blackships have to deal with every day, you'd expect a huge amount of gear to prevent the use of psychic powers.

There's evidence, though, that sufficiently powerful psykers can overcome a Pariah or Blank. The Emperor, for instance, doesn't seem to have been troubled by the Sisters of Silence.

Finnith
01-04-2008, 09:53
Ive always thought of the Apex Twins as the abilities of 2 bodies working towards one aim. 2 Alpha Plus' working together in perfect unison effectively making something pretty new and scary.

As for power rankings apart from superhumans and demi gods, the stronger you get the less sane your actions. If an alpha plus wants to get through the door they blast the door to dust, send a thousand mind controlled slaves head first trying to bash it down or open a hole in the warp letting hundreds demons out rather than using than handle which requires more effort.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 10:00
Quite possibly. You'd expect Nemesis Tessera in particular to have plenty of Blanks and Pariahs around to act as security for all those captured psykers. And given the huge numbers of powerful psykers the Blackships have to deal with every day, you'd expect a huge amount of gear to prevent the use of psychic powers.

There's evidence, though, that sufficiently powerful psykers can overcome a Pariah or Blank. The Emperor, for instance, doesn't seem to have been troubled by the Sisters of Silence.

Pariahs are rare though... I think it was stated that the rate of psykers being born compared to humans is similar to the rate of pariahs being born to psykers.

I think the Emperor just carefully placed himself in areas where Sisters of Silence were, in that he didn't get too close. If one were to, for example, hug him, he might actually momentarily lose touch with the warp.

Captain Stern
01-04-2008, 10:20
Assuming for a moment that it's even coherent to speak of powers powerful enough to obliterate planets being unleashed in the Warp and not realspace (there aren't any planets in the Warp for the comparison to be meaningful), it doesn't help us compare the Emperor against other human psykers. If the power is being utilised in the warp, there's no way to measure it against other psykers whose effects we only see in the materium. Other human psykers could be unleashing much more powerful in the warp. All we can go by is their effects on realspace, which it must be said often sound more impressive than the Emperor's.

Even 'coherent'?

I've already given two examples of the gross inferiority of Alpha class psykers compared to The Emperor, The Primarchs e.t.c.

I think you know fully well what the authors of ROC were trying to convey. It's crystal clear what the Emperor is made out to be. But, fine, let's leave that behind. Let me quote another part of the book which cements his status as psyker supreme (perhaps a gross understatement) and dispels this fad among the community that these numerous Alpha+ psykers can rank alongside him:

"Just as Horus had been corrupted, he (the Emperor) too ran the risk of being perverted by the touch of Chaos. But the Emperor was the embodiment of the uncorrupted warp (Cpt. Stern: more than just a psyker, but the counterpoint to the Chaos Powers, like I've said for years) and for him to be tainted by Chaos would be a catastrophe unparalleled since the fall of the Eldar and birth of Slaanesh." - ROC The Lost and the Damned page 184.

God forbid that one of these alpha+'s might fall to Chaos. We'd have a new Chaos God every week/ month/ year/century (either way it's a problem). :rolleyes:

Biomass Denial
01-04-2008, 10:58
The Apex twins are scary they killed every one on the black ship that picked them up because they where trying to "play" with them.

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 11:01
I think you know fully well what the authors of ROC were trying to convey. It's crystal clear what the Emperor is made out to be. But, fine, let's leave that behind. Let me quote another part of the book which cements his status as psyker supreme (perhaps a gross understatement) and dispels this fad among the community that these numerous Alpha+ psykers can rank alongside him:

"Just as Horus had been corrupted, he (the Emperor) too ran the risk of being perverted by the touch of Chaos. But the Emperor was the embodiment of the uncorrupted warp (Cpt. Stern: more than just a psyker, but the counterpoint to the Chaos Powers, like I've said for years) and for him to be tainted by Chaos would be a catastrophe unparalleled since the fall of the Eldar and birth of Slaanesh." - ROC The Lost and the Damned page 184.

God forbid that one of these alpha+'s might fall to Chaos. We'd have a new Chaos God every week/ month/ year/century (either way it's a problem). :rolleyes:

Surely the passage you quoted refers to the Emperor being a different type of psyker than normal, rather than necessarily being the most powerful psyker ever? Perhaps it would be a massive catastrophe if the Emperor were to be corrupted by Chaos, but there are numerous reasons for that which would be entirely unconnected with the raw amount of psychic energy that the Emperor is capable of channelling.


Pariahs are rare though... I think it was stated that the rate of psykers being born compared to humans is similar to the rate of pariahs being born to psykers.

Indeed, but the Imperium has a very, very, very large population, and lots, if not most, of the Pariahs and Blanks that the Imperium does find will be put to use in exactly the sorts of places like Nemesis Tessera.


I think the Emperor just carefully placed himself in areas where Sisters of Silence were, in that he didn't get too close. If one were to, for example, hug him, he might actually momentarily lose touch with the warp.

Given that we already know that Pariahs can have differing grades of potency, it seems unlikely that a psyker, no matter how powerful, can have their contact to the warp broken by any Pariah, no matter how potent. I would have thought the whole point of grading the potency of Pariahs would be to measure the level of psyker they're capable of nullifying.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 12:25
Given that we already know that Pariahs can have differing grades of potency, it seems unlikely that a psyker, no matter how powerful, can have their contact to the warp broken by any Pariah, no matter how potent. I would have thought the whole point of grading the potency of Pariahs would be to measure the level of psyker they're capable of nullifying.

How do we know that? :confused:
I've never seen a grade of pariah-ness

leo_neil316
01-04-2008, 12:35
There isn't an official grade for blanks (as far as we know) but we have seen the affects they have on people, some (like say, jurgen and the one in eisenhorn) make people feel uneasy and dislike them just by being around, and any demon or psyker who touches them feels quite a lot of pain for their efforts while psykic and demonic powers fizzle out near them and can't touch them directly at all.

Others like the (culexis or callidus? I allways mix them up) assasins and necron pariahs can litterally make people run screaming just by being near by.

Kettu
01-04-2008, 13:43
Others like the (culexis or callidus? I allways mix them up) assasins and necron pariahs can litterally make people run screaming just by being near by.

Culexis is the Psyker-assassin, Callidus is the Lady with the sword that cuts through everything.

I can't remember where I read it but in some piece of fluff I saw once it mentioned off hand there was Grades of Blanks and Untouchables but it didn't say anything else about it.

Chaplain of Chaos
01-04-2008, 14:52
We also see in Abnetts Ravenor that the null.. Wystan I think gets burned out by the psychic force of that young boy.. or perhaps it was slyte. One of the two actually burns out his blanking effect.

Thus I would assume that an extremely powerful psychic presence could overcome a blank.

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 20:31
How do we know that? :confused:
I've never seen a grade of pariah-ness

Here's what Inquisitor says:

Untouchables are psychic blanks, with little or no registering presence in warpspace, rendering them virtually immune to psychic powers. But similarly they are soulless individuals whose presence gives those nearby a disturbed feeling. The most extreme Untouchables are the Pariahs, who have a negative presence in the warp, absorbing psychic energy. They cause fear and revulsion in all who meet them and are used by the Culexus Temple of the Officio Assassinorum to annihilate enemy psykers.

The idea that one group can be "the most extreme" tells us that there's a scale.

Also, the fact that the Culexus (and Necron Pariahs) use technological means to enhance their effects seems to suggest that there's a scale of effects.

So basically, the more "negative" a given Pariah is, the wider the radius of their "soullessness" aura, and the more powerful psykers they're capable of nullifying.

Sekhmet
01-04-2008, 21:31
Here's what Inquisitor says:


The idea that one group can be "the most extreme" tells us that there's a scale.

Also, the fact that the Culexus (and Necron Pariahs) use technological means to enhance their effects seems to suggest that there's a scale of effects.

So basically, the more "negative" a given Pariah is, the wider the radius of their "soullessness" aura, and the more powerful psykers they're capable of nullifying.

So what we know is that an untouchable could be either mildly annoying to inspiring fear.

But we also know that the ones that inspire fear (pariahs and culexus) use technology to aid them. Maybe technology is necessary, otherwise all untouchables are the same?

DantesInferno
01-04-2008, 22:17
So what we know is that an untouchable could be either mildly annoying to inspiring fear.

But we also know that the ones that inspire fear (pariahs and culexus) use technology to aid them. Maybe technology is necessary, otherwise all untouchables are the same?

Check out the Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Caiphas Cain books: there are untouchables/pariahs with varying degrees of potency, even before they have technological aids to enhance/limit their effects.

Grey_Area
01-04-2008, 22:30
Surely throughout all the GW fluff, the Emperor is clearly depicted as the most powerful psyker in the Imperium. He's a god who is fed the souls of hundreds of psykers daily and his power is so strong that it's used as a beacon to guide all human warp travel. Where do the opposing opinions come from? I thought the Emperor was basically a fifth god of the warp.

Lord Cook
01-04-2008, 23:40
Check out the Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Caiphas Cain books: there are untouchables/pariahs with varying degrees of potency, even before they have technological aids to enhance/limit their effects.

It's undoubtedly just the different authors with their artistic license, but if we take each story as true, then there is definately a sliding scale. Alezibeth needed to be physically touching Eisenhorn in order to protect him from psychic attack, but Jurgen could cover Cain in the same way from a distance of 5 or 6 feet. Of course, no matter what protection he offered, it would never be advisable to actually touch Jurgen ;).

Alessander
02-04-2008, 01:19
Alpha Plus = Akira style massive power, uncontrollable. Can easily snap a titan in two, but may accidently snap the continental plate as well.

Firaxin
02-04-2008, 02:16
I don't get this whole titan-snapping obsession. Surely that would be immensely easier than reading hundreds of minds at once or banishing greater daemons.

Imperialis_Dominatus
02-04-2008, 02:22
Depends on the psyker. Some are better at raw power, others at manipulation.

DantesInferno
02-04-2008, 04:42
Surely throughout all the GW fluff, the Emperor is clearly depicted as the most powerful psyker in the Imperium. He's a god who is fed the souls of hundreds of psykers daily and his power is so strong that it's used as a beacon to guide all human warp travel. Where do the opposing opinions come from? I thought the Emperor was basically a fifth god of the warp.

Most of the discussion, I believe, is revolving around how powerful a psyker the Emperor was while he was alive.

As for the Emperor-as-a-warp-god-after-the-accumulation-of-ten-thousand-years'-worship, there's fairly good reason to treat it as a separate entity to the person who led humanity during the Great Crusade. If there is still a self-consciousness there, it's no doubt so utterly alien to the original Emperor that it really deserves to be called something different....

Norminator
02-04-2008, 10:10
It's undoubtedly just the different authors with their artistic license, but if we take each story as true, then there is definately a sliding scale. Alezibeth needed to be physically touching Eisenhorn in order to protect him from psychic attack, but Jurgen could cover Cain in the same way from a distance of 5 or 6 feet. Of course, no matter what protection he offered, it would never be advisable to actually touch Jurgen ;).

I don't think it's so much individual power. Alizabeth had to touch Eisenhorn, but Frauka (also Dan Abnett) could make an entire building safe with his blanking effect just by turning his limiter off.

Rockerfella
02-04-2008, 10:42
For me, there's always been a difference here between skill, and raw power. I guess its dependent upon the individual as to which they prefer, and ultimately how you define 'power'.

Is power the ability to 'whup all others', or is it just literally raw, unadulterated force projection?

As an example, Muhammad Ali wasn't nealy as physically strong, or powerful as 'big cat' cleveland Williams, Smokin Joe Frazier, or big George Foreman. These men were all Ali's superior in terms of 'power'.

However, when talking about skill and knowledge of craft, Ali was simply on a different evolutionary scale to these guys. This is why he could beat them, although he wasn't as powerful.

On the other hand, was he more poweful because of his mastery of his craft? Does that make sense?

This is why i'm still unsure of the power levels in description here. Alpha level = George Foreman.... but does that equate to pure mastery and skill, aka Ahriman or Eldrad, for example?

Cheers.

Burnthem
02-04-2008, 10:52
I said all this on the last page ;)


I think that the level system of 'Alpha, Beta,' etc etc is a bit of a simplification, as psychic powers can vary in ability so widely, one Beta Level Psyker might be able to immolate a building at a moments thought but struggle to pick up a pencil with his mind. An Alpha level may be able to throw Titans around but can't light a candle, or read somebodies mind.

Just becuase they are Alpha or Beta level doesnt mean they're some kind of all-conquering uber-psyker, thier talents may be so subtle or completely random that you don't notice.

Rockerfella
02-04-2008, 10:59
I said all this on the last page ;)

Indeed. You 'sort of' said all that in the last post. LOL.

However, don't you find it interesting that some people percieve 'alpha' to mean better, harder, or plainly superior to other psykers, when that may not entirely be the case?

In light of our respective posts then, where would you place Ahriman, for example?

Cheers! :p

Norminator
02-04-2008, 11:00
I said all this on the last page ;)

Wasn't Soric Beta class? If so this confirms what you said, as his psychic powers - whilst far higher than someone like Ravenor's - were more focussed on predictive powers than anything else, not smashing stuff up.

Burnthem
02-04-2008, 21:26
In light of our respective posts then, where would you place Ahriman, for example?

TBH i know so little about Ahriman that i wouldn't like to comment, Chaos fluff isn't my strong point :)


Wasn't Soric Beta class? If so this confirms what you said, as his psychic powers - whilst far higher than someone like Ravenor's - were more focussed on predictive powers than anything else, not smashing stuff up.

Exactly ;)

elvinltl
05-04-2008, 05:43
There was this article i read some time ago about a pair of Twins (Probably twin girls at a young age) that were discovered. If memory served me right, there was an article of them on GW website and story goes they were discovered to be psykers and captured and transported. However, something went terribly wrong on the transport and the twins went missing (escape?).
According to power level scaling, they were classified as Omega Level (Above Alpha Plus that is)...

They were called opexis twins or something... Or maybe i am wrong. :|

DantesInferno
05-04-2008, 05:52
There was this article i read some time ago about a pair of Twins (Probably twin girls at a young age) that were discovered. If memory served me right, there was an article of them on GW website and story goes they were discovered to be psykers and captured and transported. However, something went terribly wrong on the transport and the twins went missing (escape?).
According to power level scaling, they were classified as Omega Level (Above Alpha Plus that is)...

They were called opexis twins or something... Or maybe i am wrong. :|

The Apex Twins (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/), discussed earlier in this thread.

elvinltl
05-04-2008, 06:02
Yes... I wonder is there anymore info about them? They are said to be Omega level when their powers work in unison. Shudders!

Reminds me of Elfen Lied. Innocent girls with innate terrible powers.

Sekhmet
05-04-2008, 06:28
Omega is lower than Alpha, it's probably like Alpha plus or something

Imperialis_Dominatus
05-04-2008, 09:04
Reminds me of Elfen Lied. Innocent girls with innate terrible powers.

Yeah, they have that 'creepy possessed demon little girl' thing going on. In double. :eek: Oh dear...

tech adept
05-04-2008, 17:31
by the way does anyone know of any fluff for the 'psy boster' bionic?

Sekhmet
05-04-2008, 17:34
This is like the 8th time in the last couple days that Imperialis_Dominatus posted directly after me. Is he stalking me?

Drachenfell
05-04-2008, 17:53
The Emperor has always been described as the first and most powerful Psyker ever. Personally I'd suggest that covers all races. In fact if you go to the GW website right now you can read those exact words.

Chaos gods are meant to be at the omega plus level and at such a level it is likely impossible for such an entity to exist in the materium. I'm more of the school of thought that the Emperor was always as powerful as he currently is. But the heresy books tend to indicate that he was still perhaps the most powerful psyker ever, but has now been elevated to a dormant gestalt warp god awaiting awakening or rebirth.

But if I were to go out on a limb I'd have to guess the Emperor was around the level of Omega plus (more likely below) in life and is at or above in half life. However this will always bring up questions as to why he did not simply stop the heresy with a thought. Or indeed smite Horuss fleet on its approach to Holy Terra. I'd wager though that the combined warp assault of the 4 united chaos gods and his unwillingness to kill his favoured son may be valid reasons to accept this.

But then again there are many reasons to assume he was far lower in power. I guess its down to what you choose to accept. But the Emperor is undoubtably the most powerful human and I'd say the most powerful psychic entity of any other race at this time.

Edit: save the chaos gods perhaps.

Kandarin
05-04-2008, 18:52
Alpha is powerful. Omega is not. You may be thinking of some other setting.

Rockerfella
05-04-2008, 18:56
The Emperor has always been described as the first and most powerful Psyker ever. Personally I'd suggest that covers all races. In fact if you go to the GW website right now you can read those exact words.Indeed. Lets be clear though. The most powerful human psyker ever.....

not ever of all time ever, covering the history of the universe and the galaxy. Remember, certain Eldar psykers and indeed (if Legion is to be believed) old one races saw that which the Emperor could not. The Heresy. So, power levels differ. Magnus saw it too, the Emperor could not. Psykers are more powerful than others in certain ways, and visa versa.


Chaos gods are meant to be at the omega plus level I find it intersting, and just a little amusing at the rather interesting stance of trying to place a human scale on a Chaos God, a warp born diety of absolute and immense power. To me thats just, well.. plain daft. :)


However this will always bring up questions as to why he did not simply stop the heresy with a thought. Ahhh...hmm. Well, my answer to this question, is that he couldn't. Or indeed smite Horuss fleet on its approach to Holy Terra.


But the Emperor is undoubtably the most powerful human without a doubt! ;)
and I'd say the most powerful psychic entity of any other race at this time. For me, this isn't so clear cut!

Captain Stern
05-04-2008, 19:40
Oh no... Haven't we been through this countless tmies before?



----------UPDATE----------


Drachenfel: The Emperor has always been described as the first and most powerful Psyker ever. Personally I'd suggest that covers all races. In fact if you go to the GW website right now you can read those exact words.

Not because I don't agree with you (he quite obviously is) but where on the GW website does it say that?

Drachenfell
05-04-2008, 19:59
Hey there Kandarin!

Omega plus is currently the highest recorded level of psyker activity and is attributed to a chaos god (Though which one is unknown). The scale of psyker's goes from Omega which is the weakest to Alpha (Medium on the scale) and then into the plus scale. After Alpha the next level is Alpha plus and so on. Omega Plus is the apex of Psyker power on the far end of the scale. It is said no living being can attain anywhere near this level.

Hey Rockerfella!

Personally I like to believe he was far more powerful than the Eldar psykers but I agree that a psyker's power is not all encompassing. For instance an for an Alpha level psyker that can smack around Titan's and incinerate continents, reading the mind of an individual of indeed farsight may beyond their scope.

I tend to look at it like specialising. However the GW workshop does state that the Emperor is the first and most powerful psyker of all time. It makes no allusions to his humanity (Though old fluff points to the Emperor being closer to a gestalt Daemon than a human).

I see what you're saying about Eldrad and Magnus (Perhaps Sanguinius as well once he forsaw his own death) of being able to conduct farsight during the Heresy, however I have to wonder whether that was due to power or another struggle that was happening in the warp at the time of the rebellion. All four chaos gods united in one person solely to destroy the Emperor. They thought him -that- much of a threat. I can imagine that the war in the materium had been backed up by a longer campaign in the warp.

For instance it's well known the Emperor could not see into the future surrounding the Heresy but he is known to have considerable powers of farsight. I'd like to think (Remember it's all jumping to conclusions this game ^_~) that the four chaos gods poured their power into blinding him to this period of time.

This would explain his inability to see it, and others ability to do so. Though even if he was actually warned (I'm unsure if Magnus -actually- told the Emperor that Horus was going to betray him or whether the message was lost) that the Emperor's love for his favoured child would also have blinded it.

I tend to think the Heresy was a long time coming. I don't like the idea that Horus was just changed in an instant and prefered the previous fluff of him wanting to protect humanity. The road to hell being paved with good intentions and all that. And in light of this I also think that the Chaos gods had planned the Emperor's downfall for a long, long, long time.

I'm going a bit off tangent there. :P

It's all about your perception of teh big E though. Some will view him as god of the materium and the warp, others as an exceptionally gifted and powerful human who was in the right place at the right time. I like to think of him in the former but partly because I'm a bit of a fan boy. :P Still, until GW makes it clear. Everyone's right!

Cookies all round!

*Cheers!*

Edit: I'll go find it Cap'n. :P
Edit: Sorry for my bad English. When typing from an Iphone nothing comes out right. To captain. I couldn't find the post on GW anymore. But I also couldn't find another article about life in the Tau empire from an ex guardsman either. It is however from the 40k wikia who may have ripped it from the article I saw. Or I dreamt it. >_<

Another edit: Hey there Kandarin. The psyker scale is not simply for humans. No human has exceeded Alpha or Alpha plus perhaps in the case of Malcador. Which leaves an entire other half of the scale in touched. So I don't think its daft someone has attempted to measure the powers of the gods of chaos on the same scale at all. Yes they are of incredible power. But this is what Omega plus represents. Please don't call me daft. >_<

By the way. Don't the Elder refer to the big E as their ultimate salvation from chaos anyway? Was there not a big thing of them rounding up senseo and intending to sacrifice them all to make him a fifth warp god? If this is true surely that would make him more powerful than anything the Eldar had, if they were even bothering with him, no?

Rockerfella
06-04-2008, 12:28
Hey Rockerfella! Hello to you too good sir!


Personally I like to believe he was far more powerful than the Eldar psykers but I agree that a psyker's power is not all encompassing. For instance an for an Alpha level psyker that can smack around Titan's and incinerate continents, reading the mind of an individual of indeed farsight may beyond their scope. Well, this is sorta what I was trying to say earlier in the thread in terms of power. My rather poor Muhammad Ali/ George Foreman analogy maybe wasn't so good.

In terms of pure 'mind blasting, uber, in your face from out of space, i'm gunna whup you all' power, then i'll go with the Emperor. But, is the ability to kick someones ass with mind bullets the definition of power? What of.. say, Magnus, or again Eldrad, who were possibly more skilled than the Emperor. Like you, i'm a fanbuoy, so i'll make my point with Eldrad. Cos i like his frock.

Eldrad was incredibly skilled. Massivley skilled to be fair. He was able to focus his own power to a set craft, the end result being the ability to change the future, in all fainess. He saw the Heresy, as did other Eldar seers. In fact, as did the coven. However, although i'm sure Eldrad could fry your face with a psychic blast, i'm sure his psychic blast wouldn't have been anywhere near as powerful as the Emperors. :)

George Foreman could hit harder than Ali, and was much stronger. Does this mean he was 'more powerful?' He was less skillful, we know this much. Ali was a master of his craft, and so beat his opponents with a mixture of speed, guile and unadulterated talent and skill.


I tend to look at it like specialising. However the GW workshop does state that the Emperor is the first and most powerful psyker of all time. I agree here, for sure. However, i also know that one must never, from instruction from GW itself, take everything they say at face value. Personally, i don't believe he was the most powerful psyker ever. But thats just me, and hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions and interpretations. Thats what makes this hobby, and its background so interesting!

By the way. Don't the Elder refer to the big E as their ultimate salvation from chaos anyway? Was there not a big thing of them rounding up senseo and intending to sacrifice them all to make him a fifth warp god? If this is true surely that would make him more powerful than anything the Eldar had, if they were even bothering with him, no?

Erm, not really. Theres lots of talk about the starchild and the Eldar god of the dead, Ynnead (darn it, forgot the spelling... something silly like that, anyways). Yneead is suppost to wake up and hammer Slaanesh. Basically. He may team up with the Emperor, or he may not. Who knows. Its all myth and hope, to be fair.

You talk of 'anything the Eldar had'. Well, there's new fluff in the armegeddon book about the king of the Eldar gods, Asuryan, moving an entire star system to wound the C'tan Kaelis Ra. If taken at face value, then thats powerful.

Anyways, welcome to warseer! ;)

leo_neil316
06-04-2008, 14:19
See rockerfeller, (I reckon) your alalogy is out just a little bit.

It's not so much ali vs foreman as ali vs the HMS Hood.

Rockerfella
06-04-2008, 14:58
And we all know what happened to the hood!! :P

I think though you maybe misunderstood my point, or i wasn't clear enough. The analogy wasn't supposed to me meant as a direct relation to ali and Foreman and Eldrad and the Emperor. My reference to Ali was an attempt to highlight the difference in definitions of power, and all that that entails.

For example, for the obvious differences in skill, Ali and foreman were still relatively close in terms of power. I was using htese two as an instrument to highlight the differen't types of power, and the difference ultimately between raw power (foreman) and superior skill (ali).

I was in no way attempting to say that Ali= Eldrad and Foreman = The Emperor. So, i'm sorry if it came across that way! :)

Shamfrit
06-04-2008, 15:31
A debate which could rage for decades surely, but to put in my two pennies, I would have to swing for Eldrad as a mortal Psyker, I know very little about The Emperor to be able to say but, in terms of the current game should we really be including characters who are, for all intent and purpose dead?

Eldrad is demolished, or encased in the warp after his struggle with the fortress, and the Emporer is currently weakened beyond the point of movement and speech. Then we have the Chaos Gods, whom as we all know exist in non-corporeal forms within the warp, and as such they really only have indirect control through avatars and willing hosts (of course, there are plenty, plenty of these.)

Human Psykers have one thing over the Eldar, and the strongest Weird Boyz, they have the ability to learn at exceptionally quick rates. They can obtain maximum power in themselves far, far quicker than an Eldar Psyker, but - does this make them stronger?

Eldrad ultimately had the power to control the future, but, did not have the offensive ability to back that up, and the same can be said for the Emperor in reverse, he can destroy, but does not know what and where to implement that power.

The question is, is there a psyker strong enough alive to resurrect the Emperor, or to trigger the rise of the Eldar God of the Dead? (I must dig out my Codex lol.)

Rockerfella
06-04-2008, 16:26
Indeed! Well, Eldrad was 10'000 years old at the time of his demise. Mortal, yup. But, as close to immortal for a mortal as you can get really. lol.

The Emperor is really as good as dead. But, i want to make this clear. Yes, i'm a fanbuoy, but i KNOW that the emperor was a more powerful psyker than Eldrad in terms of power projection, and the rest. I'm not so sure, however, that he was more skillfull. For me, the biggest point of contention and the most important thing to consider. Power vs skill.

Its a shame we never really got to hear about Eldrads offensive capability. I'm sure he was quite capable, but.... i guess we'll never know! *sobs quietly into my mug of tea*

^^ Great post though! :)

Shamfrit
06-04-2008, 16:30
Its a shame we never really got to hear about Eldrads offensive capability. I'm sure he was quite capable, but.... i guess we'll never know! *sobs quietly into my mug of tea*

^^ Great post though! :)

I still follow the belief that he is not dead, merely withering and broken in the warp, contained by Slaneesh. What would happen, pray tell, if Slaneesh were distracted, bent or broken? (As the Eldar seem only to live to destroy their Avatar, the very bane yet creation of their existence today) I would warrant a guess - Eldrad would see his chance, and break free.

But that's for another topic entirely.

Back onto the topic - Codex: Eldar, Pg. 18, first line, 'Craftworld Ulthwe is home to the most powerful psykers in the galaxy.' Well, I guess that settles it then, no?

(The Eldar God of the Dead is indeed, Ynnead.)

Thanks Rocker, your posts and others have suddenly driven me into an Eldar Background Fury, hehe.

The_Outsider
06-04-2008, 18:28
Here's a random thought thats kind of related-

We all know that "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", but is there anything saying that couldn't be bodged to psyker power levels?

So there is probably someone out there that is a pariah with enough power to blank the Emperor out?

Especially if said being lives on an outlying world - they might be able to cut off the astronomicon (hence the outlying world - where the astronomicon is weak).

TheOverlord
06-04-2008, 19:50
Actually, if you're going to include the Emperor himself into that list, do primarchs count then?

Because Magnus the Red would possibly wallop any alpha level psyker into oblivion just by looking at them (Titan killing death beam anyone?)

Captain Stern
07-04-2008, 00:22
The Emperor was a powerful seer. The ROC story says that his prophetic powers had never failed him until right up to Horus Heresy - 'the point beyond which he could not see'. So we have perfect presience up until a point. That doesn't make him a weak seer, just a limited one. He had a good run. Almost 38,000 years of success based to a large extent on these prophetic powers. How long did Eldrad live? 10,000? 20,000 at most? How succesful was he, or any other Eldar seer, in comparison? Not very succesful at all. No eldar was able to stop Slaanesh from being born. No Eldar managed to prevent almost the entire race from being wiped out. The Emperor had to contend with the machinations of 3, and then 4, Chaos Gods. He almost managed the destroy them. Even now that he's confined to the Golden Throne humanity continues to survive. The Chaos gods feared him, considered him an equal and named him their greatest enemy.

The Eldar seers, at least, can be considered failures next to the Emperor. What about the Old Ones? They never came close to defeating Chaos. Their race is effectively extinct and the remnant of them left to the galaxy (if you consider Legion to be a source) have been reduced to a tiny posturing group of impotent "would be" saviours.


Actually, if you're going to include the Emperor himself into that list, do primarchs count then?

Because Magnus the Red would possibly wallop any alpha level psyker into oblivion just by looking at them (Titan killing death beam anyone?)

I don't see why not. In terms of power we can be pretty sure they were 2nd only to the Emperor and the Chaos Gods: 'the energy of the uncorrupted warp would flow through them as it flowed through the Emperor himself'. Seer wise and skill wise I'm not so certain.

Captain Stern
07-04-2008, 00:29
Its a shame we never really got to hear about Eldrads offensive capability. I'm sure he was quite capable, but.... i guess we'll never know! *sobs quietly into my mug of tea*

I've got some good news for you. Go and find yourself 2nd edition Codex Eldar. You'll be able to see how unimpressive his offensive capabilities really were.




--------UPDATE------

I've really got to learn to take my time with posts.


Rockerfeller: Eldrad was incredibly skilled. Massivley skilled to be fair. He was able to focus his own power to a set craft, the end result being the ability to change the future, in all fainess. He saw the Heresy, as did other Eldar seers. In fact, as did the coven.

Incredibly, massively skilled compared to most human psykers maybe but compared to the Emperor? Magnus? Malcador? Some other nameless human, eldar or Old One psykers? What do you base this on? The ability to 'set a c raft'? lol.

What examples are there exactly of the Emperor being less skilled than any other psyker out there? I'll grant you the second point, but I've covered that in the previous posts.

You can't guide the human race for tens of thousands of years, stop them from destroying themselves, create the primarchs, launch and lead the Great Crusade, have the Chaos Gods cowering in their boots - with just psychic 'power'. It required collossal intelligence, skill and powers of prophecy. The skill to 'set a craft' might have been beyond him though!



Eldrad ultimately had the power to control the future, but, did not have the offensive ability to back that up, and the same can be said for the Emperor in reverse, he can destroy, but does not know what and where to implement that power.


Why do you need offensive abilities to control the future? Anyway, if you control the future then you're basically God. Eldrad might have been a decent seer but he couldn't control the future. Far from it if you look at his actual deeds which are a reflection of his abilities as a seer.


the same can be said for the Emperor in reverse, he can destroy, but does not know what and where to implement that power.

There's plenty of background out there, lots of which I've already mentioned, that prove this to be demonstrably false. Indeed, it arguably puts Eldrad and everybody else to shame.

Shamfrit
07-04-2008, 02:21
The Eldar cannot defeat Slaneesh, because Slaneesh is an embodiment of the Eldar. Wherever the dark side or the twisted, arrogant corruption, fluff aside, something born of another thing can never truly be destroyed without leaving the other drained. What would the Eldar gain from slaying Slaneesh? They would swell in arrogance and masqued peace once more, and a dormant age would arise, and history would repeat itself with ambivalent massacring of any lessons that obviously, would not have been learnt.

On face value, Eldrad died fighting a Chaos God. The Emperor, allowed his mind to fall in his betrayal and lost his 'immeasurable power' to politics and slavery, a mere plethora of sacrifices keeps this apparent 'God' at bay. Wherever or not he left his material body remains to be seen, but for now - like all beings of power, he lost it due to his own might. It doesn't matter how destructive you can be, how many planets you can tear and sunder, or gods and daemons you can banish, as far as I am concerned, mastery of one's own self is the Mastery of Psionics no psyker, god or daemon has ever yet to achieve.

This discussion reminds me of the Debate concerning which, out of Clan Eshin and the Cult of Khaine was most efficient at assassination. As I recall, it was never resolved, and settled on 'Skaven have more less efficient assassins, and work on numbers.' In that same sense, I can see where you might fall to; the Emperor led his people through Age Upon Age, yes, but - now his effort is nothing, a tattered banner over a dying, devastated Imperium, corrupted and assailed on all sides...

Then we look at the Eldar...tattered, torn, assailed on all sides... which of the two has retained it's morality, retained it's conscious? The Eldar as merely dwindled, but remain as powerful in the individual sense as ever they were or can be, after such endless war. The Imperium, their 'Powerful Psyker' defeated, has no such being to lead them through the darkness.

If we're talking leadership, guile and foresight, as the essence of Psionic ability should be (because a Bomb does just as good a job as a Beta, Gamma, What Have You) and there are alot more bombs, then by far, the Eldar win. That being said, you mentioned the Old Ones Stern. We have no true measure of their power in the current setting, because, as will the Eldar and Man, they fell and died under the pressure of their greatest enemy - themselves.





There's plenty of background out there, lots of which I've already mentioned, that prove this to be demonstrably false. Indeed, it arguably puts Eldrad and everybody else to shame.

I meant that in the sense that a man can possess the power to rupture space and time, and erase worlds, but what good are such powerful abilities, if you cannot use them when you need them most? I.e Heresy. Eldrad could not foresee that Slaneesh was contained within the Fortress, by all means, this only goes to re-enforce my point, both did so many, many great deeds to develop and advance the history and cultural identity of their respective races, but both failed themselves and their kin by their blind sight. I still think Eldrad's philosophical ideals and attitude outstrip the Emperor of his apparent 'humanity,' power is nothing without noble intent.

Captain Stern
07-04-2008, 03:34
The Eldar cannot defeat Slaneesh, because Slaneesh is an embodiment of the Eldar. Wherever the dark side or the twisted, arrogant corruption, fluff aside, something born of another thing can never truly be destroyed without leaving the other drained. What would the Eldar gain from slaying Slaneesh? They would swell in arrogance and masqued peace once more, and a dormant age would arise, and history would repeat itself with ambivalent massacring of any lessons that obviously, would not have been learnt.

He's the embodiment of what became the most dominant part of the Eldar psyche. Before their corruption other parts of the Eldar psyche were represented by the Eldar gods, most significantly and uncorruptably by Khaine. But to get back to the point - The Chaos Gods can be destroyed by changing the nature of those who feed them power. This was the Emperor's plan and it was working. Whether the same could have been done for the Eldar I don't know. They're aliens. You ask what the Eldar would have to gain by slaying Slaanesh? Everything would be my answer. Let's not get too off topic though.


On face value, Eldrad died fighting a Chaos God. The Emperor, allowed his mind to fall in his betrayal and lost his 'immeasurable power' to politics and slavery, a mere plethora of sacrifices keeps this apparent 'God' at bay. Wherever or not he left his material body remains to be seen, but for now - like all beings of power, he lost it due to his own might. It doesn't matter how destructive you can be, how many planets you can tear and sunder, or gods and daemons you can banish, as far as I am concerned, mastery of one's own self is the Mastery of Psionics no psyker, god or daemon has ever yet to achieve.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The Emperor fell because of the blind spot in his foresight and because he underestimated the Chaos Powers. He 'did' leave his body, although there's still a tenuous link (ROC Lost and the Damned).


This discussion reminds me of the Debate concerning which, out of Clan Eshin and the Cult of Khaine was most efficient at assassination. As I recall, it was never resolved, and settled on 'Skaven have more less efficient assassins, and work on numbers.' In that same sense, I can see where you might fall to; the Emperor led his people through Age Upon Age, yes, but - now his effort is nothing, a tattered banner over a dying, devastated Imperium, corrupted and assailed on all sides...

And yet, next to the Orks, humanity retains the best positon in the galaxy. They're still number one. The Old Ones are dead. The Eldar are dying (that's a staple of the 'fluff'). Indeed, the Eldar serve as a warning as to what might happen to humanity if they carry on the way they're doing (ROC and 2nd ed). The Eldar are a failed race:
'They know that they have failed, that there is no hope for them, and yet continue to cling to the universe by their very fingernails. Perhaps it is their hatred for Chaos that drives them on, but perhaps it is their own failure which they can not face or acknowledge, or their own arrogance and sense of superiority which is impossible to humble.' - (Codex Imperialis)
This is part of what makes the Eldar so interesting, no?


If we're talking leadership, guile and foresight, as the essence of Psionic ability should be (because a Bomb does just as good a job as a Beta, Gamma, What Have You) and there are alot more bombs, then by far, the Eldar win.

I don't understand what you mean by bombs. Just saying the Eldar are better without backing it up isn't good enough. Yes, the Eldar probably do have far better seers than anything humanity can produce at the moment (presumably). However, like I've demonstrated, the prophetic achievments of the Eldar i.e. to see a possibility and to achieve, avert, or change it - can't match the Emperor's. All they have over him is that they could see the ONE thing he could not. Let's not forget the Emperor foresaw Slaanesh and used it to his benefit.


That being said, you mentioned the Old Ones Stern. We have no true measure of their power in the current setting, because, as will the Eldar and Man, they fell and died under the pressure of their greatest enemy - themselves.

Their greatest enemy was Chaos. We can measure their power and competence by the fact that their enemies thrive and that they themselves are extinct. To regard humanity and the Eldar as sharing a comparable position in the universe is just simply wrong. The Eldar is almost extinct as a race. Humanity was dealt a severe blow by what happened to the Emperor but they're still in an incomparably better position.


I meant that in the sense that a man can possess the power to rupture space and time, and erase worlds, but what good are such powerful abilities, if you cannot use them when you need them most? I.e Heresy.

Well that's what makes it such a tragedy. The Emperor was succeeding. His plans were all falling into place. But he failed 'the time of testing.' (ROC)



Eldrad could not foresee that Slaneesh was contained within the Fortress
Slaanesh was contained in the fortress? :wtf: How did he get out of the warp? I'm not too familiar with the story but it sounds a little absurd to me.


this only goes to re-enforce my point, both did so many, many great deeds to develop and advance the history and cultural identity of their respective races

They didn't 'both' perform ' so many, many great deeds to develop and advance the history and cultural identity of their respective races'. How can anything Eldrad has accomplished possibly compare to the achievments and struggles of the Emperor down the millenia? I suggest you read up on the background.


but both failed themselves and their kin by their blind sight.

The mighty Eldrad had a blind spot in his farseering powers? Interesting.


I still think Eldrad's philosophical ideals and attitude outstrip the Emperor of his apparent 'humanity,' power is nothing without noble intent.[/QUOTE]

The Emperor didn't have noble intent? Ensuring humanity's survival, living so that he could steer them on their course to become a psychic species, and trying to destroy chaos wasn't noble?

People, let's not forget that Eldrad is just a character Games Workshop have elevated to prominence so that the Eldar, too, can have a central figure comparable to Abaddon for Chaos, Gazkhul for the Orks and Farsight (or whoever) for the Tau. I'm just sayin'...

Shamfrit
07-04-2008, 09:02
I think on face value yes, the Old Ones' enemy was Chaos. But why regurgitate the known facts when there's something far deeper to be had (unless this is just me) from examining things on a deeper level (perhaps too deep.)

I think the Eldar have a unique place in the galaxy, one that benignly outlines their 'dying' status, as they still retain influence and an important, if not world changing (on a countless, galactic al scale) part to play, either in Slaneesh's death or the sundering of one of their enemies (i'm thinking Tyranids,) but, where I think people have gone astray is taking 'power' to mean dominance, it's hard to Deny anything done or intended to be done by the Emperor; I guess most of my resentment against him and the humans in both Warhammer worlds is that they're so, very, us. If you pile on arrogance, self-importance and an even greater ability to fall corrupted.

Power, it's something different people see, or admire in different ways. Khorne sees it as strength and skill, Slaneesh as pleasure/corruption/fullfillment, and so on, I see Power as the ability to wield abilities and notions altruistically, not to further one's own strength (I am not saying Eldrad did not, but it can be said he used them to defend his home world without being detected) which is directly contrary to the Emperor's gung-ho bang bang I Am Teh Uber! style - but I guess I just like subtlety and intrigue as opposed to in your face power.

I think the answer to this is The Emperor, by all means, but I do not appreciate where that power comes from, how it was used, and the resulting turmoil and wars caused by the Emperor's attempt at creating a perfect society. Gods should never walk the material plane, ever.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-04-2008, 11:47
This is like the 8th time in the last couple days that Imperialis_Dominatus posted directly after me. Is he stalking me?

Nope, just on this forum far too often. :)

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 12:58
Hallo!

I have to say I dig Eldrad, I think he's awesome. I also think that as a farseer he was incredibly potent. He did predict the heresy and before Magnus. Hes also managed to keep the Eldar from toppling over the brink of extinction.

But even though he's cool, I think the Emperor is a completely different league. I also have to say that I don't agree that his works and his intentions were lacking nobility. His life began out of a suicide in 8 bc or something. He then devoted over 40 thousand years guiding and protecting humanity.

Giving so much timeto defend an entire race without want or tribute is quite noble if you ask me. That's why I dig the emperor so much. He's selfless and he's got the psychic smackdown to back it up. We must remember that the Emperor had incredible forsight and guided humanity until the heresy which was the only point his mind couldn't penetrate.

I'm not saying he's a better person than Eldrad. They both protected their corners selflessly and indeed tried to help each other ( warning the emperor of the heresy, and the emperor bartering with them). But the Emperor is perhaps the most powerful entity in the 40k verse. In terms of power only the chaos gods rival him.

Oh. And a random Ork. :P

Thanks for the welcome Rockafella. ^_^
By the way has anyone thought that maybe the Emperor is Ynnead? I'm sure the whole starchild inquisitor elder capturing sensei thing was hinting at that.

Oh to the guy that was asking about the emperor possibly being blanket by pariahs. I believe the emperors bodyguards the sisters if silence were all blanks or pariahs and he used to walk around with them without trouble nor I presume any loss to hiss massive powers.

Asuryan is obviously badass. :P

Shamfrit
07-04-2008, 13:02
But the Emperor is perhaps the most powerful entity in the 40k verse. In terms of power only the chaos gods rival him.

By the way has anyone thought that maybe the Emperor is Ynnead? I'm sure the whole starchild inquisitor elder capturing sensei thing was hinting at that.

I thought the idea was to discuss the most powerful psyker now, obviously, both Eldrad and The Emperor are incarcerated and or/powerless at this precise moment - so, of the remaining choices, who do we have? (And I understand I'm guilty of such distractions myself, lol.)

---

An interesting Idea, are you suggesting the entire Eldar race has to die to resurrect the Emporer, just to defeat Slaneesh? Wouldn't that be a futile, pointless sacrifice?

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 13:33
Hey Shamfrit!

Even though the Emperor is incarcerated his powers are still immense. He directs the awesomeness that is the Astonimicon. He gives the adeptas sororitas his blessings and at times chooses champions from them and infuses them with powers as his avatars (living saints are rawr).

All of this and he staves off the chaos gods from his loo! That's pretty impressive for a guy that's supposedly been turned to an existence of half life (though if you've read the inquisitor books the Emperor may indeed be fully healed physically and awaits only to be awakened.

But if were doing this excluding the Emperor I'd have to go with Mephiston as one of the most raw powerful psykers of the current imperium. (minus magnus, malcador, emperor). I'm terms of the galaxy there's a much harder and unclear argument there if we exclude the big E.

Shamfrit
07-04-2008, 14:12
Hey Shamfrit!

Even though the Emperor is incarcerated his powers are still immense. He directs the awesomeness that is the Astonimicon. He gives the adeptas sororitas his blessings and at times chooses champions from them and infuses them with powers as his avatars (living saints are rawr).

All of this and he staves off the chaos gods from his loo! That's pretty impressive for a guy that's supposedly been turned to an existence of half life (though if you've read the inquisitor books the Emperor may indeed be fully healed physically and awaits only to be awakened.

But if were doing this excluding the Emperor I'd have to go with Mephiston as one of the most raw powerful psykers of the current imperium. (minus magnus, malcador, emperor). I'm terms of the galaxy there's a much harder and unclear argument there if we exclude the big E.

That's what I was looking for, without having to read Black Library books - what the Emperor is doing now, as opposed to what he is doing. You're right, I'm struggling to think of current examples...

Where would Weirdboyz and Ork Psykers come into this, as far as fluff goes? I'm afraid I only get as far as Fantasy Orcs, Eldar are my only delluge into 40k.

Drachenfell
07-04-2008, 15:34
Yeah the Big E is still the heart of the imperium. If he died the Imperium would fall. Atleast some people think so. There is even a hint that the Emperor during the age of apostasy actually created an massive and terrible warp storm that destroyed an entire fleet sent to kill Sebastoan Thor. He's still very much around.

I'm afraid that my expertise only really goes into the Emperor, primarches and marines. Orks I know little of save that they're all latent psychics and can fire guns without bullets and drive trukks without engines. Who knows what the old ones did to them.

Rockerfella
07-04-2008, 18:46
Right, i'm staggering horribly off topic here, so i'll keep it as short as I can. Thats not very short.


I've got some good news for you. Go and find yourself 2nd edition Codex Eldar. You'll be able to see how unimpressive his offensive capabilities really were. Well, i draw your attention to Fluff as opposed to a representation of an in game character. Marines are S4, but in the fluff, can break down walls, smash through hordes of enemies and basically pwn all other creations.

In the game, this dosen't happen. At all. Marines die terribly easy. I'm just saying. You know, lets not base everything here on game stats. An Eldritch storm can lift a tank and flip it on its head. Thats not bad for a start. Not bad for a 'seer', at any rate.



Incredibly, massively skilled compared to most human psykers maybe but compared to the Emperor? Magnus? Malcador? Some other nameless human, eldar or Old One psykers? What do you base this on? The ability to 'set a c raft'? lol. Well, my personal interpretation and preference here (lets be honest, thats what this is all about, since you don't have any evidence to put forward that Eldrad was any LESS skilled a psyker than the emperor) to believe that Eldrad was as skilled, if not more so than the Emperor. Again, personal preference. That dosen't mean he was 'MORE POWERFUL!!!!' by any stretch of the imagination. Or, in fact that i believe that to be the case. I do think the Emperor was more powerful. ;)


What examples are there exactly of the Emperor being less skilled than any other psyker out there? I'll grant you the second point, but I've covered that in the previous posts. I'll just flip that one on you son. What examples are there out there that Eldrad was any less skilled than the emperor? I'm going with 'preference' again here i'm afraid.


You can't guide the human race for tens of thousands of years Badly......,
stop them from destroying themselves Sort of... but not entirely....,
create the primarchs A completely, and in fact humiliatingly failed project if there ever was one.. in all fairness,
launch and lead the Great Crusade Yes... that ended in Heresy and practical death for the Emperor himself
have the Chaos Gods cowering in their boots - with just psychic 'power' A subjective and emotional statement if i ever heard one ;)
It required collossal intelligence, skill and powers of prophecy. The skill to 'set a craft' might have been beyond him though!What did? The systematic blundering efforts of the great crusade? His warmongering, Hitler esque attacks on his own people? His failed Primarch project, that resulted directly in the Horus Heresy (which, incidentally, the EMPEROR didn't forsee)? His terribly and frankly appalling people skills and man management (Konrad Curze and Magnus spring to mind here) or the fact that the Emperor simply couldn't see past his own arrogant and bloated sense of self to even contemplate that his own would turn against him? Personally, I think you misunderstood my point, when referencing 'a craft' too.





Eldrad might have been a decent seer but he couldn't control the future. A decent seer? :p Now, thats funny.
Far from it if you look at his actual deeds which are a reflection of his abilities as a seer. Well.. again, thats subjective. Personally, i think what Eldrad achieved as a MORTAL, pound for pound, is greater than that of the Emperor. To me, anyways. He saved Ulthwe the horror of war, how many times? Just by skillfully plucking and playing the odds of probability. He Saved several other craftworlds too, mot noticably Saim Hann. Eldrad was a puppet master.

Eldrad led Ulthwe for ten millenia, and it still survives on the edge of the eye, as one of the biggest and most powerful Craftworlds in the galaxy.



There's plenty of background out there, lots of which I've already mentioned, that prove this to be demonstrably false. Indeed, it arguably puts Eldrad and everybody else to shame. OK. In your opinion. Please, don't ever forget to put that on the end of a sentence like the one you've just written. Cos, at the end of the day (yes, i'm a fanbuoy, but hell, least I admit it)! i think eldrads achievements were (in respect to his leadership and in line with the guy being just a mortal, not the bastard child of a 100'000 shamans, yada yada) percetnage wise, as succesfull as the Emperors.

Drachenfell. Its been mentioned before than the starchild and Yneead could be one and the same, thanks largely to the tablet in Xenology.

For me though, i tend to think they're two differen't beings. Eldrad was one of the few seers who believed in Ynneads intervention and prophesised his coming. For me? Ynnead is supposed to wake and consume Slaanesh.

My questions are: How would this affect Cegorach, and the splintered Khaine? Would cegorach be able to emerge safely from the webway, or was the price of his escape from Slaanesh permanent exile in the confines of the webway?

I'm pretty sure it says in the lates Eldar codex that he emerges sometimes, to play his deadly tricks on the Chaos gods and their followers. So, who knows! Of course, thats if we take all this literally. ;)

Back on topic. Psykers of today? Well.. surely Ahriman is up there, isn't he? And, well.. Magnus is still alive, or so i'm led to believe. So, even as a deamon prince, or whatever he is, he's got to be pretty awesome when it takes his fancy.

Them there twins, they're quite handy aren't they.

And, the old one's primary foe wasn't chaos at all... it was the C'tan and the Necron threat guys. Chaos, as we know it now, didn't really exist as we understand it now in that time frame. The warp was a much calmer and accessible dimension.

The Eldar pantheon occurpied the during the WIH (or so some believe). The Entities we know as the Chaos gods were either represented by the Eldar gods (and so weren't chaotic in nature) or they simply didn't exist.

Just to clarify: The Old ones warred against the C'tan and the forces of the Necrons 60'000'000 years ago, with the aid primarily of the Eldar and the Krok (amongst other races).

Odenetheus
07-04-2008, 21:52
The forces of Chaos was created when the unstable minds of the races spawned by the old ones influenced the warp, but they were not defeated by chaos, but by the C'tan.

How well would the Emperor fare against the Nightbringer, you reckon? When it all comes around, the C'tan are the, arguably, by far most powerful beings in existence, outweighing the Chaos gods, the Emperor and the Farseers, due to being completely immune to warp effects, having no warp presence, being able to shape the Materium according to their whims, having vast intellects, and so on and so forth.

Why the remaining Primarchs shouldn't be on the list, I fail to see.

I apologise for not adding anything constructive this time :D

The_Outsider
07-04-2008, 22:46
The forces of Chaos was created when the unstable minds of the races spawned by the old ones influenced the warp, but they were not defeated by chaos, but by the C'tan.

How well would the Emperor fare against the Nightbringer, you reckon? When it all comes around, the C'tan are the, arguably, by far most powerful beings in existence, outweighing the Chaos gods, the Emperor and the Farseers, due to being completely immune to warp effects, having no warp presence, being able to shape the Materium according to their whims, having vast intellects, and so on and so forth.

Why the remaining Primarchs shouldn't be on the list, I fail to see.

I apologise for not adding anything constructive this time :D

Immune? No.

its more that they have no grasp of the warp - they know it exists but cannot/have no idea how to interact with it.

That is why the eldar forged the Talismans of Vaul - in a fight bound by the laws of physics in the material universe C'tan are second to none - they simply are masters over the domain (hence why they can break aforementioned laws they are still beings of a universe bound by them).

Its more that they have no defense against warp energy other than their physical attributes (i.e extreme resilience, ability to "phase" etc).

The Emperor would not be able to fight a C'tan and live - in a best case scenario the Emperor would probably have to go psychic supernova (unleashing all the power that makes him mighty) to destroy a C'tan.

Chaos Gods and C'tan cannot fight - neither can exist in the other's realm with any resemblence of power, hence why The Great Plan is in effect so the C'tan have no adversery.

I mean the Eldar forged their own gods and their mightiest warrior god had to sacrifice himself just to destroy the Nightbringer's necrodermis skin - the energy being within was relatively unharmed.

The whole idea to the C'tan is that they are mostly powerless in their energy state - the necrodermis allows them to interact with the universe in a tangible way other than sitting their munching stars.

Adra
07-04-2008, 23:53
I think there is a consideration we should except. I belive that Alpha level powers are not a blanket set of skills. The thing about Alphas blowing up titans is a bit silly really. Yes im sure there are some out there that can do that but all Psykers abilities in 40k seem to revolve around the individulas skills in a specific area or areas. No Psyker seems to be able to cover all bases with equal skill. Very simple example. Ravenor can control peoples minds, communicate mentaly and control objects. Sarpadon (sp) can project the primal fears of his enemy into visual manifestations. So they are both able to do something the other cant, yet they may both be classed the same level. (ok i know Ravenor is more skilled and blah blah but its an example) Not all Alpha level Psykers will be able to rip up a titan, in fact im sure very few could, but their Alpha skills may be very diverse.

Eldrad is, i belive, Alpha level in some areas. His abilities as a seer seem to be unmatched by the Eldar, but his offensive skills are much less deadly. Does this mean hes not an Alpha? No. Just that his Alpha skills manifest in a specific area. I would say hes an Alpha seer but only a Gammar offensive. Other characters, like Mafeston, show much stronger skills in other areas. Not sure if I would say hes an Alpha but he does have amazing offensive and defensive skills, yet no indication of passive skills such as farseeing or communication.

The only one you could say was almost a pure Aplha is The Emperor, but even he would fall short in some areas, hense the 'almost'. We just dont know enough about his skills to really make a call on that.

madd0ct0r
08-04-2008, 00:12
i think more titans have been destroyed in this thread then are currently in existence.

as for relative power level's - why should insanity prevent you being on that list?

power = energy transferred over time.

Drachenfell
08-04-2008, 08:19
oh gawd not another E versus the c'tan. Look the c'tan are not as über as people think. They have tabletop stars. I'd wager a primarch would be more than a match for one let alone the E himself. The E is pretty much a deity of both the materium and the warp. Nor do I buy into the shoe horned fluff of the c'tan being the most powerful things in existence. ( Not to mention the warp is anerhrama to them to represent the divine being aneathema to the undead in fantasy and the Emperor is the warp incarnate. So there :P).

Blargh. Now that's off my chest. If were talking about psykers in the imperium Mephistons at the top. In the galaxy though Itd be Magnus. He was set to be the only one who could sit on the golden throne without being turned into a husk save the Emperor afterall.
Hey again Rockerfella!

Yeah I dig the tying in of the E starchild and ynnead thing. And like I say Eldras was the most powerful seer of the Eldar and his actions kept them going far longer than thought possible. They do however pale in comparison to the Emp who single handedly carved out one of the greatest empires of the glalaxy and brought the race of man from the brink of extinction.

I'm not saying what Eldrad did was crap. But it doesn't compare to what the Emperor started and still maintains. Not even close.

P.s The E is well above Alpha. Easily. Malcador was above Alpha and he could not handle the Golden Throne for more than a few hours. The E has been sitting on it for 10 thousand years and their are signs he's actually regenerated. Not to mention he guides the astronomicon and did so during the great crusade as well as an afterthought. That's impressive.

Captain Stern
08-04-2008, 09:20
Right, i'm staggering horribly off topic here, so i'll keep it as short as I can. Thats not very short.

Well, i draw your attention to Fluff as opposed to a representation of an in game character. Marines are S4, but in the fluff, can break down walls, smash through hordes of enemies and basically pwn all other creations.

In the game, this dosen't happen. At all. Marines die terribly easy. I'm just saying. You know, lets not base everything here on game stats. An Eldritch storm can lift a tank and flip it on its head. Thats not bad for a start. Not bad for a 'seer', at any rate.

It's not the same thing at all and I'll tell you why. The game designers would never have dreamed of making rules for the Emperor back then, and even if they could they would never ever have given him a psychic mastery of 4 like Eldrad possessed (level 4 was the highest psychic level in gaming terms at the time). If they really did want to distinguish Eldrad from the likes of Tigurius, Mephiston or Ahriman (who also had psychic masteries of 4) they easily could have but they chose not to. How do I know? Because there was one character, a daemon prince of tzeentch named M'kachen, who the game designers saw fit to give a psychic mastery of 5. [note how it's psychic mastery too, not power]

Farseers, Eldrad included, were never meant to compare with colossuses of the 40k universe such as the Emperor or the primarchs and perhaps even Eldanesh before his inclusion in some of the new background made him less impressive than maybe what he should have been. You can argue, and argue, to the contrary until the cows come home and you'll still be missing the point.

Incidentally, the main reason space marines are so rubbish in the game is because they have to match their low points cost, which are low because it means players have to buy more miniatures. But I, too, think it's also because of the designers concern for "game balance" (which i call being unimaginative and lazy).


Well, my personal interpretation and preference here (lets be honest, thats what this is all about, since you don't have any evidence to put forward that Eldrad was any LESS skilled a psyker than the emperor) to believe that Eldrad was as skilled, if not more so than the Emperor.


I'll just flip that one on you son. What examples are there out there that Eldrad was any less skilled than the emperor? I'm going with 'preference' again here i'm afraid.

I don’t think I’ve been going on much about psychic skill. I was talking mainly about the Emperor’s abilities as a seer, remarking how he’s been beyond compare for tens of thousands of years, not only because he could see the right path but that the was also always able to act on it in the right way… until the Horus Heresy. While the birth of Slaanesh was, perhaps, unavoidable, arguably, the simultaneous destruction of their race, wasn't. This proves their inadequacy next to the Emperor who was always able to at least ensure his race’s survival.

You scoffed at the Emperor for having a psychic blind spot, but now it appears Eldrad did as well.

Psychic skill.
On reflection I think psychic skill is actually dependent to a large extent on psychic power in the sense that the most complex psychic feats open to a psyker can only be attempted if he’s powerful enough. For example, you can learn to be the most skilled conjurer of low powered psychic bolts in the galaxy and your low powered bolts will be more powerful and more precise than anyone else’s, but those with more power aren’t interested in conjuring low powered bolts or in dedicating time and effort to improve them. They spend their time instead performing psychic spells the likes of which you won’t be able to cast even in your wildest dreams.
So comparing the psychic skill of a considerably less powerful psyker such as Eldrad to that of the Emperor’s is a moot point.


Badly......,
What the section in ‘Realm of Chaos The Lost and the Damned’ describing the Emperor’s efforts to guide humanity basically has to say is this: Despite all his power, intelligence, (inhuman) patience and wisdom, the Emperor had his work cut out for him because humanity was an uncommonly unstable, disruptive and unruly species, or in other words - a major pain in the ass race. Throughout the book the Emperor is painted as very worthy. Could someone who’s also read this back me up on this?

This sentence pretty much sums it all up: ‘At times of crisis he would be there, steering the human race along a narrow survival path that he alone could see.’


Sort of... but not entirely....,
How do you mean? Not only have they survived throughout the ages, they continue to do so even though their guardian is gone from them. If it wasn’t for him then humanity would have died out early on:

‘And that without them (the shamans) the whole race would soon fall prey to the psychic entities it had created in the warp.’
And
‘Mankind learned how to travel through the warp and soon the stars were populated with human colonies. The New Man himself was instrumental in these scientific advances. He knew that while humanity remained bound within its own solar system the entire race remained vulnerable to extinction.’


A completely, and in fact humiliatingly failed project if there ever was one.. in all fairness,

Yes... that ended in Heresy and practical death for the Emperor himself

The Emperor and the Chaos Powers were playing for high stakes:

‘They (The Chaos Powers) also recognised the twenty super-humans as a force that could make the Emperor invincible. The Chaos Gods struck…’ – Codex Imperialis

If the primarchs hadn’t been stolen and subsequently tainted by Chaos then Chaos would have lost and humanity would be in an unimaginably better position than it currently enjoys in 40k. But, yes, the project failed and had disastrous consequences for the Emperor and humanity. But that’s what high stakes are all about.



A subjective and emotional statement if i ever heard one ;)
‘The Chaos powers feared the Emperor because he understood them and sought to change human nature so that they would be starved of power.’ - ROC LATD Page 9

Therefore it stands to reason that this fear they felt would escalate into them ‘quaking in their boots’ once they learned of the primarch project which would ‘make the Emperor invincible.’


You know, throughout you’ve been betraying your narrow field of knowledge where 40k is concerned. This bias, too, against Imperium and Emperor related background is perplexing.


What did? The systematic blundering efforts of the great crusade? His warmongering, Hitler esque attacks on his own people? His failed Primarch project, that resulted directly in the Horus Heresy (which, incidentally, the EMPEROR didn't forsee)? His terribly and frankly appalling people skills and man management (Konrad Curze and Magnus spring to mind here) or the fact that the Emperor simply couldn't see past his own arrogant and bloated sense of self to even contemplate that his own would turn against him? Personally, I think you misunderstood my point, when referencing 'a craft' too.

Ahh… now we come to Index Astartes and new batch of codices and novels. Well, what can I say other than I recognise how crap they are and that they must have been written either in ignorance of, or with the arrogant presumption that they could improve on, the vastly superior literature that preceded them.


A decent seer? :p Now, thats funny. Well.. again, thats subjective. Personally, i think what Eldrad achieved as a MORTAL, pound for pound, is greater than that of the Emperor. To me, anyways. He saved Ulthwe the horror of war, how many times? Just by skillfully plucking and playing the odds of probability. He Saved several other craftworlds too, mot noticably Saim Hann. Eldrad was a puppet master.

Eldrad led Ulthwe for ten millenia, and it still survives on the edge of the eye, as one of the biggest and most powerful Craftworlds in the galaxy.

Let’s not forget that Eldrad’s job, and that of other senior Farseers, is immeasurably easier than what the Emperor had to do. Therefore the ‘pound for pound’ argument isn’t appropriate for this kind of debate. You’re fond of analogies? I’m sure Police constable Plod’s success rate for keeping crime down in the village of Wickam Bay during the 50’s had a higher success rate than Winston Churchill’s efforts in leading the country during World War 2. Does that make him a greater man than Churchill? Of course it doesn’t. I’m sure Marneus Calgar and many other leaders in 40k have, ‘pound for pound’ much better records than the Emperor. But could any of them have done a better job than the Emperor when put in his place? Certainly not. The Emperor’s job was far, far more difficult, uniquely so actually, in that he had to guide then lead his unruly race whilst simultaneously being the principal target of the Chaos Powers’ attentions.



OK. In your opinion. Please, don't ever forget to put that on the end of a sentence like the one you've just written. Cos, at the end of the day (yes, i'm a fanbuoy, but hell, least I admit it)! i think eldrads achievements were (in respect to his leadership and in line with the guy being just a mortal, not the bastard child of a 100'000 shamans, yada yada) percetnage wise, as succesfull as the Emperors.

Actually, I think I will choose to forget that piece of advice. If, like I did, you include the word ‘arguably’ in a sentence then it removes the need to add ‘in my opinion’ at the end. Besides not all statements are opinions and I personally don’t care for this insidious, egalitarian “everyone’s opinion is just as valid as every one else’s” ideology. I also have zero respect for this ‘fanboyism’. You should argue the case of a character in a story based on what’s written about him, not on bias or by attributing greater worth to something based on your attachment. It’s counterproductive. This is a story not football.



And, the old one's primary foe wasn't chaos at all... it was the C'tan and the Necron threat guys. Chaos, as we know it now, didn't really exist as we understand it now in that time frame. The warp was a much calmer and accessible dimension.

The Eldar pantheon occurpied the during the WIH (or so some believe). The Entities we know as the Chaos gods were either represented by the Eldar gods (and so weren't chaotic in nature) or they simply didn't exist.

Just to clarify: The Old ones warred against the C'tan and the forces of the Necrons 60'000'000 years ago, with the aid primarily of the Eldar and the Krok (amongst other races).

Urgh… You read a few Index Astartes articles and **** poor 4th/5th edition codices and you think you know better. Granted, a lot of the new stuff has the C’Tan and the Necrons as the principal enemies of the Old Ones. However you must acknowledge that the bedrock of both the 40K AND Warhammer background has always had as its backdrop the ancient struggle between the Old Slann/ Old Ones against Chaos – which they lost. If Graham McNeil and the rest chose to gloss over that then, at least in my opinion, it compromises the validity of their work.
Besides, even Dan Abnett, one of the core of writers who have defined what 40k has recently been and is becoming, has disregarded the new C’Tan background. This we can see in ‘Legion’.

Shamfrit
08-04-2008, 11:21
"What do humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea."



-Farseer Eldrad Ulthran.


On.....the other hand:

"Perfidous Eldar! These aliens had the stars in their grasp and now are left to sift the dust of their once fabulous realm. For all their intellect and wisdom they could not contain the beast within them, nor tame the wild monsters of the shadow. Why should we pay them any heed?"


-Grundwald, Ordos Xenos.

(Codex: Eldar quotes.)



Now, why, why why why should either race listen to one another? After all, yes, the Eldar Civilisation is crumbling (although is still relatively large) and the Empire of Man is ever expanding, but, both race's opinions on one another are severaly construed because they're...precisely the same.

The Eldar world collapsed, it was once the most (sorry, still is) the most technologically advanced culture in the Galaxy. The Empire is, for all intent and purpose the Eldar race but at a different point in the time line that has, thus far, governed every civilisation known to man and man's imagination. Rise, fall, boon, golden age, dark age, culminating in sundering and ultimately, extinction. The Eldar are in the latter, and the Empire rests in the dark age.

Of course, only man could be arrogant enough to assume, that since another race is further along this path (think Incan, Spanish, Well, Earth, pretty much) that it is superior, more powerful and overall, more deserving of life and acclaim. The Eldar then view mankind as children, slowly expanding beyond their means as they once did, in essence, neither opinion is correct, and neither is either race's stance towards the other, but the fact remains - the psychic latency in the entire Eldar race (a gift that constructs their worlds, culture, skill) puts the psychic ability of the Eldar before mankinds, as Eldar seers and the like can control the Warp with less risk, and it is perhaps this safety measuring that allows Human Psykers to obtain greater individual power. They are willing to have their minds and bodies obliterated by the Warp, the Eldar are not, as they know the perils of the warp, having 'greater psychic latency' than humans which means they retain a concious mind in the Warp - where Slaneesh awaits.

I think in terms of a race as a whole, the Eldar wipe the floor of man in the Psychic Race. (Scuse the pun) but, as an individual, it can't be argued that the Emperor is the most 'powerful,' in whatever way you construe power. I don't like humans, (in Warhammer) I will openly admit, but the facts and evidence are there for all to see.

It would still be interesting to see an all out Psychic assault from the Eldar race against the best Mankind can offer, Battle Royale style! But this is never going to happen, not until the Sundering (I've always had the suspicion Games Workshop doesn't move the plot forward because they're going to do one massive, massive world changing campaign in the future, and I mean, Eldar dying, Emperor awakening, C'tan returning planet busting grab 'em by the balls and squeeze! Sort of campaign...but...we live in hope.)

So - as a combined force - Eldar, individual - Emperor.

Drachenfell
08-04-2008, 12:10
The eldar are a psycically charged race. As are the Orks. Far more so than man. Few individuals are pskers and few are near in power to the eldar best. But the topic is who's the most powerful psyker is the Emperor no question. No ones even on his league. Which is how it should be.

In terms of races yes the eldar have more psykers but I'd put their best such as Eldrad on par with the likes of Mephiston etc.

battle captain corpus
08-04-2008, 12:13
No Sarpedon then of the Soul Drinkers? Very surprised! One of the most powerfull Libbys around it seems. Hummpph! ;)

Chaplain of Chaos
08-04-2008, 15:16
We also know that Eldard has a psychic blind spot even earlier than the Fall.

Eldrad was WAY behind in his warning to Horus. Horus was already duped into the service of Chaos before Eldrad warned Fulgrim. For that matter Eldrad was unable to forsee or sense the rising Chaos Taint in the Emperors Children... or for that matter the tainted spirit of Fulgrim before him or even the silver-hilted sword which held the bound form of a greater daemon (while he did find out during their meeting, it was far far too late.)

So no, the only situation we can see in Fluff of a Seer succesful at all times is the Emperor. Who is to say that the Horus Heresy wasn't just part of a long (forgive me for comparing this to dune but I think it matches) Golden Path that the Emperor has set forth for Humanity.

So the Emperors Farsight is beyond compare, and we also know that his offensive psychic might when focused and released was compared to that of a supernova.

Now this isn't to say that Eldrad isn't an accomplished Seer, I would say he is the seingle most powerful mortal Seer that has lived. Yet it's really not fair to compare the Emperor and Eldrad.

I personally think that the Emperor forsaw what we see in the 41st millenia.

Also very very good points Stern!