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Dragon Prince of Caledor
31-03-2008, 23:01
The other day i had my first game against my friends new empire army. He painted his tank and wantedto use it. He played my tomb kings friend and left the undead with 3 models by turn 6. I managed an honourable draw against the darn thing with a solid list; it seemed i had to do a lot of sacrificing! Let it be known that i am not lucky with rolling... My dragon prince unit and lion chariot managed to steam down the rest of his army along with some scouts. Is there any way for a high elf to win against this thing. It got almost all of his kills. Here is my list (was) and P.S. he was whining about me wanting to take a star dragon! I made a list with one for our next gamehehehe:)

Korhil
Mage with ring of fury and silver wnd
BSB on barded steed shield lance and battle banner

15 spearmen
10 archers

6 shadow warriors
lion chariot
15 pg
15 white lions with gem of courage and lion standard
6 dragon princes with command and warbanner


2 eagles
2 bolt throwers


his list was

lord (fighting mounted..)
bsb mounted
wizard
warrior priest

flaggelents
knights
crossbowmen

knights of white wolf
greatswords
mortar

tank
volleygun

that is what i remember him having..

Any ideas?;)

Lord Dan
31-03-2008, 23:29
Your bolt throwers should be firing single rounds into the steam tank every turn you can. It's a large target, so you have +1 to hit, you wound on a 4, and it gets no armor save. You then do D3 wounds. In my opinion, steam tanks are basically shut down when you get them down to 5 or so wounds, so you shouldn't have that much of a problem. Just keep your other stuff away from it.

His list actually looks pretty flimsy and aimless, if you're remembering correctly.

fubukii
01-04-2008, 01:41
take teclis, take lore of metal, hit him with Bane of forged steel first turn and do 2d6 str 7 hits on him with no armor save, then laugh at it dies. Then u can cast 2d6 str 4 hits on his army, and continueing to spam bane on his knights and probably mangle his army :)

Slacker
02-04-2008, 00:47
The Steam Tank is NOT hard to take out of a game, providing you've got anything with any sort of high strength or range. I'm terrified of Bolt Throwers.

Kloud13
02-04-2008, 06:20
Just remember anything in close combat with a steam tank hits it automatically. I played a game against a buddy with a steamtank, and I hit it with a unit of swordmasters with my Prince with Greatweapon. And we played the whole game thinkin I needed to roll 3's to hit it.

CaptScott
02-04-2008, 07:00
Target it immediately with your bolt throwers, if you manage to knock off half its wounds pretty much done for, as it will likely fail some of its steam rolls and self destruct.

And the first person to mention STank RAW or victory points is going to get a slap in the back of the head.

The Red Scourge
02-04-2008, 15:46
You just need to give it a few wounds, and the blasted thing becomes just a useless pile of junk.

I play Chaos and the first me hellcannon does when facing empire is to shoot at the steam tank. When its taken its first wounds it becomes too unreliable to really impact the game.

him_15
02-04-2008, 17:13
Just a slightly off-topic question about steam tank, does pit of shades works against it as well? And do i need to roll 4+ to trap the tank? Or is it automatically hit and fail I test?

the12thronin
02-04-2008, 17:34
Nope. Only magic with a defined strength value works on the stank.

The Red Scourge
02-04-2008, 19:01
Nope. Only magic with a defined strength value works on the stank.

Well.. The pit of shades does state, that it ignores special rules..

Think of it fluffwise. A big hole opens beneath the stank, and it just keeps on going???

devolutionary
02-04-2008, 19:04
And the first person to mention STank RAW or victory points is going to get a slap in the back of the head.

Charge it! :p

As said, just open up with the big guns. Every army has a common method to wipe them out, be it artillery, decent cavalry blocks (I'm talking Bretonnian KE with banner here) or magic.They are more psychological than anything these days.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
02-04-2008, 19:17
Just a slightly off-topic question about steam tank, does pit of shades works against it as well? And do i need to roll 4+ to trap the tank? Or is it automatically hit and fail I test?

This was a huge debate that, to my knowledge, was never resolved. There are reasonable arguments on both sides of the issue.

I would roll off before the game starts (unless a FAQ has clarified this)

Garg Foecrusher
02-04-2008, 20:17
The Siegebreaker from the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book, does something like an automatic hit and d6 wounds with no save I think.

Malorian
02-04-2008, 20:26
The Siegebreaker from the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book, does something like an automatic hit and d6 wounds with no save I think.

It allows saves but you get a huge minus... the 1+ save becomes a 6+ :evilgrin:

Grom Wronghand
02-04-2008, 23:44
Except for the seigebreaker, is there any way the Ogres can deal with the stank? They admittedly have a whole damn lot of high S attacks, but charging that thing might hurt you more than it. Also, cannons hurt the big fellas.

theunwantedbeing
02-04-2008, 23:47
Ironbreakers should put a fair dent in it.
St6 will hurt a stank, they do get multiple attacks remember.

You could bull charge it with conga lines.
St9 negates its armour save completely remember, thats only a line of 6 bulls :P
Slap a character at the front and you only need 4 behind him to get that magic strength 8!
The bullgut would be of use, as you'de be armour piercing.

A normal ogre hero with a great weapon gets 4 st7 attacks, he can do a few wounds with that easily enough.
Give him the tenderiser and he'll do alright, d3 wounds per hit can do a fair bit of damage.

Tarian
03-04-2008, 00:33
Not to get too OT, but why would that not have been resolved? The steam tank rules specify it cannot be affected spells that do not have a listed strength. Pit of shades is a spell that does not have a listed strength. That's not at all unclear. The note on initiative checks applies to things like the giant's thump with club.

I believe that the debates comes from the Pit of Shades stating that it ignores special rules of its target, i.e. no saves etc. The Pit is pretty much "Initiative Test or Die". That being said, there isn't a FAQ out to my knowledge that fixes this. Best solution is to dice it w/ opponent in my opinion.

Spirit
03-04-2008, 02:09
I would use sword masters. 6 of them will get 12 s6 hits, thats 2 or 3 wounds on the charge, which give you a decent chance of stopping it working.

And ofcourse, solid shot it, its too easy to pass up imo.

Varath- Lord Impaler
03-04-2008, 02:54
I love anvilling in a slayer unit. :P

Napoleon Blownapart
03-04-2008, 20:22
Switch to empire and blow up the thing in turn 1 with ur own cannons.

Kloud13
03-04-2008, 20:33
I would use sword masters. 6 of them will get 12 s6 hits, thats 2 or 3 wounds on the charge, which give you a decent chance of stopping it working.

And ofcourse, solid shot it, its too easy to pass up imo.

Sword Masters are only Strength 5, So, they will need 5's to wound it, and the Steam Tank will be saving on 3's. 12 hits, 4 wounds he will probably save 3 of them. Next turn, Steam Tank Grinds, and shoots steam, then about 7 -12 Smordmasters die. The survivors promptly flee.

3Xhume
03-04-2008, 22:34
I have faced Steam Tank twice. First, with my Brets. I held the tank with my M@A after wounding it to 3 wounds with magic. Second, with my TK. I've done two direct hit with my catapult and did 6 wounds. Then, it was basically immobile. BTW, I managed draw with Brets and won with TK.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
09-04-2008, 19:45
I thought that the lore of metal spell, the really ugly one only affected that many models. Not that many hits. I did all the above except for the fact that i went defensive magic. Next time i shall go star lance and lore of metal!:)

ReveredChaplainDrake
09-04-2008, 20:04
I hate Steam Tanks so much. They butcher the very rulebook as we know it because they steam into you and you don't get any charge reactions, they don't need to see you at the start of the turn to charge or shoot you, their Cannons are move-and-fire, they are not in any way slowed by moving through woods, which pretty much breaks my only means of defeating Monsters of that size: fleeing charges and dragging it someplace where it'll be nice and obsolete for a turn or two. Not to mention killing the thing is nigh-on impossible without War Machines of your own. To add insult to injury, the Empire player at the LGS who uses a STank most often... built his STank entirely out of legos. Yeah. My Black Dragon Highborn (which, for the record, is made of Citadel miniature parts) gets repeatedly r*ped by a Tinker-Toy.


I thought that the lore of metal spell, the really ugly one only affected that many models. Not that many hits. I did all the above except for the fact that i went defensive magic. Next time i shall go star lance and lore of metal!:)

Think again. STanks have Magic Resistance 3.

BTW, if you know a way Lizards can kill it outside of "throw JSoD at it and pray it falls apart", tell me!

Havock
09-04-2008, 21:17
take teclis, take lore of metal, hit him with Bane of forged steel first turn and do 2d6 str 7 hits on him with no armor save, then laugh at it dies. Then u can cast 2d6 str 4 hits on his army, and continueing to spam bane on his knights and probably mangle his army :)

the spell you mean does not grant 2d6 hits, it merely affects 2d6 models, which is a different thing, especially in this scenario. But why kill it, you can take a cheap spell and shut it down for the remainder of the game. Would you like salt on those 10 wounds, dear sir?

fubukii
10-04-2008, 00:35
the spell you mean does not grant 2d6 hits, it merely affects 2d6 models, which is a different thing, especially in this scenario. But why kill it, you can take a cheap spell and shut it down for the remainder of the game. Would you like salt on those 10 wounds, dear sir?

its most certainly does my friend! read the rulebook faq on the first page right column under the entry for page 113.

http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/errata.htm


gogogo 2d6 hits!

Havock
10-04-2008, 11:08
That makes it a whole lot better indeed.

Conotor
10-04-2008, 11:17
Star dragon with a lance dude on his back should take it out. PG should be able to hold it.

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 11:30
Unwanted Being - you need to be 3 wide to get a successful bull charge in (cant be 1 thing long line)

As far as elves go, grab a seer wand. Chose metal, grab a Banner of Sorcery. Then laugh in his face as you melt it. Then melt his knights... no problem

Armilthuan
10-04-2008, 14:22
Best anti Steam Tank tactic: Suggest you and your Steam Tank opponent switch armies for a few games. :P

kiron
10-04-2008, 20:15
Was quite amusing, a friend of mine showed up with this list
(note no special chars were allowed)

1 mage lord-lvl 4, 2x dispel scroll
1 mage-lvl 2
1 mage-lvl 2, rod of power
1 Battle standard bearer-imperial banner

10 halberdiers-2x5 xbowmen detachment
10 halberdiers-5 handguner and 5 archer detachment
10 halberdiers-5 halberdier det.

4 great cannons
2 steam tanks

2000 points
10 units + 4 Artillery
10+/-3 power dice, 6+/-3 power dice+2 dispel scroll

His magic defense was fairly solid with average of 8 dispel dice and 2 scrolls
Extremely fragile mind you. The cannon sniping against this list doesn't seem to work as by turn 2 most opposing artillery are gone. The duel steam tanks that crushes everything beneath it. The infantry are more for harassing than anything else. Even a dwarf list had no choice but to "march" toward this list after losing 2 cannons and 2 bolt throwers. Saw a unit of 20 slayers get wiped out in 1 round by combined charges of 2 tanks. (Average 12d3 or 24 str 6 hits!)

How do most armies win against this?

Malorian
10-04-2008, 20:22
It's all about the bret virtue that let you killing blow large targets ; )

Charge in, autohit, and hope for just one 6 and the poof! it's gone... hehe...

redrum
10-04-2008, 20:39
Unwanted Being - you need to be 3 wide to get a successful bull charge in (cant be 1 thing long line)


Um, that's not what the army book says. It just says it has to be a unit of at least 3, it doesn't say anything about formation.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds to me like what Theunwantedbeing suggested is perfectly legal. It's also kind of funny to imagine.

warlord hack'a
11-04-2008, 07:34
@ kiron.

This army you describe has 7 deployment choices. That means that versus my O&G force he will have deployed EVERYTHING, including characters by the time I have fielded my 3 fast cav units, 2 snot blocks, artillery and one chariot. I then still have my main force to put on the field and I will put them behind cover in a corner of the field, use my fast cav ro race around his flanks or divert his steam tanks, use the precious little time my artillery survives to at least wound one steam tank and basically let my fast cav do the job of eating up his cannons.

or atlernatively I put a thin line of night gobs in front of my orc horde and just march forward. By the time I am at his lines my night gobs will have died due to shooting, my orcs will have been halved due to cannon fire, my fanatics and warmachines will have hampered the steam tanks and my chariots are most likely dead but at least that would have saved my orcs from a round of shooting. And then I have reached his ridiculously thin lines and crush him with whatever I have left of my orcs.

A cannon shooting at ranked up infantry is not the most efficient use of the cannon as it will with a perfect shot kill at most 4 rank and filers. A bolt thrower can easily do the same for far less points and no chance at misfire.

Marwynn
11-04-2008, 15:57
Steam Tanks vs HE?

Bolt Throwers. Pretty much the only way I'd take it on. That is, unless I have a Star Dragon hidden somewhere.

The Red Scourge
16-04-2008, 05:18
How about magic weapons dealing out d? wounds. I've added a Rending Sword to my chaos lord, just because of those empire buggers. The Stank or Van Horstmann's Speculum can really tie up your character, if those wounds aren't dished out fast enough. And as soon as the stank has taken its first 2 or 3 wounds it will lose its potency.

TheDudeGuyMan
16-04-2008, 05:42
I don't see what all the fuss is about steam tanks. Have you read the rules for them? (if you haven't read the rules, read them. Carefully. Don't let any of your opponents try to pull any funny stuff) First of all, they cost a ton of points. Secondly, they are war machines without crew, which means they can get spiked. Read the rulebook page where it talks about war machines in combat: if you win combat against it alone, that thing is gone. I think the tank is more of a liability than an asset, so is the Hellblaster, IMO

Armilthuan
16-04-2008, 07:47
Oh my... That's brilliant! Haha. Good finding!

blurred
16-04-2008, 08:42
Secondly, they are war machines without crew, which means they can get spiked.

*Slap slap slap slap slap* Naughty boy. Take your RAW-spikeys elsewhere. :p

I've faced stanks only once and it wasn't pretty. My greenskins don't have a lot of shooting so I tried to hinder its speed with wolf riders. It worked for a while until he used the maximum steam points allowed and rammed into my trolls. Ouch!

The Red Scourge
16-04-2008, 09:57
I don't see what all the fuss is about steam tanks. Have you read the rules for them? (if you haven't read the rules, read them. Carefully. Don't let any of your opponents try to pull any funny stuff) First of all, they cost a ton of points. Secondly, they are war machines without crew, which means they can get spiked. Read the rulebook page where it talks about war machines in combat: if you win combat against it alone, that thing is gone. I think the tank is more of a liability than an asset, so is the Hellblaster, IMO

Well.. There is a crew of one he just rarely pops out the hatch ;)

Neknoh
16-04-2008, 10:34
The argument against said person being crew is that there is NO crew listed for the stank and the Engineer is not listed as Crew either. As such, there is, in fact, no crew. Especially no crew on separate bases.

However, there is allready a thread for this in the Rules dep. so go there instead of here to argue this. But it IS a good thing to do against people going "Ok, I don't want to give you half VP's for the tank because it's a warmachine", in which case you go "Ok, warmachine, no problem... it's spiked".


Now, dealing with it: Lore of Metal and Bolt Throwers should do the job allright

Spirit
16-04-2008, 14:23
TheDudeGuyMan, seriously, just go away. That is clearly not ment to be how it is operated, take that argument elsewhere, its done to death and boring now..

Lord Dan
16-04-2008, 14:59
Actually I was reading the rules for spiking warmachines, and no where does it say you can spike a machine simply for the crew not existing. If I recall, there are 3 conditions, all of them being specifically if the crew flees or is destroyed.

It isn't as vague as: "If the crew is not there..."

It specifically says: "If the crew has fled or is destroyed..."

Mireadur
16-04-2008, 15:05
Stank itself is not overpowered. The problems people have with them arise in competitions where you can slip 2 of them for just 600 points in your 2000point list.

Spirit
16-04-2008, 17:20
Actually I was reading the rules for spiking warmachines, and no where does it say you can spike a machine simply for the crew not existing. If I recall, there are 3 conditions, all of them being specifically if the crew flees or is destroyed.

It isn't as vague as: "If the crew is not there..."

It specifically says: "If the crew has fled or is destroyed..."

The "rule" is not with spiking, its with crew. The crew rule states that they must be separately based form the warmachine, steam tank has no "separately based crew" and thus has no crew, allowing it to be spiked.

Its a stupid loop hole.

Melon-neko
16-04-2008, 18:20
Hi
I apologize if this is a repeat question from a different thread, I guess steam tanks get discussed a lot =)
Anyways, does anyone know what happens if Wood elves tree sing a forest over the tank? I believe the rules say the steam tank treats all terrain as impassable, so would it just be stuck?

Mireadur
16-04-2008, 22:50
I apologize if this is a repeat question from a different thread, I guess steam tanks get discussed a lot =)
Anyways, does anyone know what happens if Wood elves tree sing a forest over the tank? I believe the rules say the steam tank treats all terrain as impassable, so would it just be stuck?

The rules about Stanks say exactly what you mention, however ''Tree singing'' spell states that the wood stops moving as soon as it comes in contact with any non friendly unit or piece of terrain thus allowing the tank to move away.

Maybe if you do a very tricky move with a strangely based wood you could make impossible for the tank to rotate...

Spirit
17-04-2008, 00:05
Even if you just put a wood in front of it you stop it for at LEAST a turn, then just rinse and repeat.. Wood elves should have no problem against a steam tank.

Melon-neko
17-04-2008, 00:52
The rules about Stanks say exactly what you mention, however ''Tree singing'' spell states that the wood stops moving as soon as it comes in contact with any non friendly unit or piece of terrain thus allowing the tank to move away.

Maybe if you do a very tricky move with a strangely based wood you could make impossible for the tank to rotate...

Hmmm, thank you.
I should learn to read through the entire spell description -_-

I have some people to apologize to XD

Lord Dan
17-04-2008, 02:08
So, I don't see why my point isn't valid. If you say the wording is:

"If the machine has no crew left to defend it at the end of a combat (because the crew fled from the charge, have broken from combat, or are wiped out), the enemy automatically destroys the machine"

Are you agreeing with me? Because right now, RAW would imply that the conditions for spiking a warmachine can't technically be met with a steam tank, as there is no crew to have fled, broken, or be wiped out.

Am I missing something? Whether or not a steam tank had a crew to begin with doesn't matter. If you want to argue RAW with me and say a steam tank can be spiked, I'll argue RAW and say the conditions for spiking a warmachine can't be met with a steam tank. End of demo.

Spirit
17-04-2008, 08:57
Lord, have a look for a thread called Steam tank RAW HAW HAW (or something like that)

It was started by g0dhead and has been the bane of the forums existence, there is reasoning in there, reasoning that proves it can be spiked by RAW, but it is stupid. Just please, don't resurrect the thread...

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-04-2008, 11:59
Not to get too OT, but why would that not have been resolved? The steam tank rules specify it cannot be affected spells that do not have a listed strength. Pit of shades is a spell that does not have a listed strength. That's not at all unclear. The note on initiative checks applies to things like the giant's thump with club.

Because Pit of Shades states that "...models failing this test are swallowed up by the ground and removed as casualties, regardless of any magical protection or special rules they may have"

Clearly, the Stanks immunity to spells without a strength value is a special rule, so yeah, it is not clear which has precedent. I personally believe that Pit of Shades does affect the Stank, but many feel it does not, and there is enough of a debate on this issue that I think a FAQ needs to clarify it.

Armilthuan
17-04-2008, 13:09
I see your point, but I disagree.

Going RAW, the special rule of the Steam Tank kicks in before he has to take the Iniative test. Therefore, the line "regardless of any magical protection or special rules they may have" is never comes into play.

You can't just say the special rule can't protect him, he has to fail his initiative test first! And the Steam Tanks special Rule potects the Steam Tank from taking the test in the first place...

EvC
17-04-2008, 13:20
Indeed- the Steam Tank's is simply unaffected by the spell. It doesn't have any form of magical protection or special rule to stop it falling down a pit like a ward save or regeneration, but the pit doesn't affect it, in the same way that a model that is partially under the template but rolls 1-3 is unaffected. Similarly there's a High Elf banner that makes the unit immune to spells cast upon it, which would not be affected.

Imagine the Pit of Shades is a gun with deadly armour-penetrating insta-kill bullets- no vest will protect you from bullets it fires. But if you've got some kind of special doojamy that means you can't be shot by bullets, then the bullet can't harm you- which is the equivalent of the Steam Tank's immunity.

Of course such a debate will go on and on, so just note that the UKGT team have stated the Pit doesn't affect it, and so that is the likely answer we'll get from the FAQ.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
17-04-2008, 14:08
Of course such a debate will go on and on, so just note that the UKGT team have stated the Pit doesn't affect it, and so that is the likely answer we'll get from the FAQ.

Fair enough. While I still don't agree with the logic you presented above, this is the best precedent I can see and I would agree to it.

I'm just crossing my fingers that Dark Elves get access to Lore of Metal in their update, which will make this all a moot point for me :p

Lord Dan
17-04-2008, 20:28
Lord, have a look for a thread called Steam tank RAW HAW HAW (or something like that)

It was started by g0dhead and has been the bane of the forums existence, there is reasoning in there, reasoning that proves it can be spiked by RAW, but it is stupid. Just please, don't resurrect the thread...


I have read it, and the reason I made my point here was so the thread wasn't resurrected. From what I read, however, the only point that can be made is that steam tanks technically do not have a crew, not that they could be spiked. The fact that they don't have a crew does not mean they are spikeable, in fact, it's just the opposite. It means there's no way they can ever be spiked.

Mad Larkin UK
18-04-2008, 22:43
Throw a brass orb at it, if its hit, its dead :-)

WillFightForFood
19-04-2008, 01:32
Deleted post.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
19-04-2008, 03:31
Hi
I apologize if this is a repeat question from a different thread, I guess steam tanks get discussed a lot =)
Anyways, does anyone know what happens if Wood elves tree sing a forest over the tank? I believe the rules say the steam tank treats all terrain as impassable, so would it just be stuck?

I thought that the tank just steamed everything down in its path i guess i was wrong:) It is kind of a ghetto tank anyways :cool:

Necronoxz
19-04-2008, 08:33
I have token it a whole battle in combat with 1 unit of 10 ghouls ;)
they give 3 lucky wounds next turn it wounded itself and later I just stay and fight and at the end of the game I charged it with my grave guards and finished it of.
Just take a little not much valuable unit and charge it make sure you give it some wounds and that's it ;) if you can wound the damn thing it realy kick itself in the ground ;)

Mad Larkin UK
19-04-2008, 18:08
And the 3D6 points of structure damage just add insult to injury.

That does nothing to it anymore. It takes an inititive test just like any other model, since it has a value of 0 its an autofail, i e dead steamtank :-)

EvC
22-04-2008, 08:44
Hence why it's adding insult to injury.