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treben1234
31-03-2008, 23:34
I wrote a palite letter sunday on some questions about the vampire counts. These respons are from GW customer service. So there is no mistakening them. So here it is wrighting in stone. QUESTION YOU WANTED AWNSERD!

I was reading over the new Vampire Count codex and I have a few questions about the spells.



Can you cast the Nehek spell on units already in combat to regain lost modles?

Yes you can cast nehek spell on units already engaged in combat.

Can you cast Vanhel's Danse Macabre spell on units already in combat to benafit from allways strike first and re-roll miss?

When casting vanhel’s dance, if the target unit is not in combat the unit moves, if the target unit is in combat your re-roll misses.


Can a Charator in a unit already in combat cast the Nehek or Vanhel's
Danse Macabre spell on said unit or another unit?

Yes, a vampire in combat can cast both spells.

When casting vanhel’s dance, if the target unit is not in combat the unit moves, if the target unit is in combat your re-roll misses.

Do Dire Wolfs, Fell Bats and Bat Swarms count as infantry for Nehek spell?

No they do not, infantry are models that have a unit strength of one and are on foot. Bat swarms are monsters, dire wolves are cavalry and fell bats are flying units.


When casting summon undead horde on a Vampire, Ethereal or Non-infantry do they regain 3 wounds?

It clearly states in the description of summon undead horde that vampires, ethereal an non-infantry units only regain a single wound from each casting.

And would it not be easyer to cast Nehek spell 3 times on a Vampire then the Summon Horde spell for regaining wounds vs dispelling, casting and protects agianst perils of the warp?

Yes, nehek is easier to cast, however summon undead order will heal multiple units with a single cast and has an unlimited range, while nehek is only 18 inches and heals a single unit.


Kevin H

Direct Services

Games Workshop Canada

1-888-498-7655

Hope this helps a lot of people and put to dead (dead dead) questions (arguments). :)

Khorneflakes
31-03-2008, 23:50
and protects against perils of the warp? wrong game system methinks:D

treben1234
31-03-2008, 23:59
sorry miscast. Havent played for a while. Im just putting them together and going to play later this week.

grishnakh99
01-04-2008, 00:28
Fellbats are listed as Infantry in the back of the book... a flying unit is not listed as type of unit in the main rule book.

Fellbats have a US of 1 and they are on foot at the beginning and end of their fly move.

E-616
01-04-2008, 00:53
That's very useful to hear it all from an official source :)

I'm surprised people are having trouble with Vanhels being cast into combat since the spell has a specific effect while in hth...

Fell bats and Bat swarms only gaining a wound per casting of IoN does make sense considering this is how it works on Dire wolves, it will be nice when they release an official errata for it though as Grishnakh99 points out you have a good argument that Fellbats count as infantry.

Volrath
01-04-2008, 01:24
good catch grishnakh99, see...more questions. hmmmm...

treben1234
01-04-2008, 01:57
Well next time someone esle can email them on rule clarafation. I dont want to seem like a complete idiot asking them all these questions.

Volrath
01-04-2008, 02:34
no no, questions are good, especially getting a response from them, sometimes answers make more question, thanks for putting up the dialog

soots
01-04-2008, 02:40
bah this is as good as ringing up the acme infested nerd at your local GW for advice.

As much as id like to consider this official, it doesnt hold any value. We need an official White Dwarf/GW website errata.

redrum
01-04-2008, 03:07
bah this is as good as ringing up the acme infested nerd at your local GW for advice.


I love it when people call other people who have the same hobby as them nerds. Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot. :evilgrin:

soots
01-04-2008, 03:50
I love it when people call other people who have the same hobby as them nerds. Pot meet kettle. Kettle, pot. :evilgrin:

Theres a difference between someone who likes playing computer games, and someone who thinks they're part of the computer game.

Lordmonkey
01-04-2008, 03:58
Theres a difference between someone who likes playing computer games, and someone who thinks they're part of the computer game.

But we are part of the computer game...

I already tried posting the verdict I got from a rules troll, but nobody seemed to care. Obviously until this is set in print, nobody is going to pay any notice.

Griefbringer
01-04-2008, 06:17
Well, the rules trolls are infamously bad in getting their rules interpretations mixed up.

T10
01-04-2008, 08:17
Hope this helps a lot of people and put to dead (dead dead) questions (arguments). :)

Could you post that on a different date, i.e. not on April Fool's Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Fools%27_Day)?

:)

Veland
01-04-2008, 08:28
Well next time someone esle can email them on rule clarafation. I dont want to seem like a complete idiot asking them all these questions.

It would be good to know if the wounds regained from Summon Undead Horde can be allocated to units engaged in combat, and if these wounds could summon more models in units of skeletons, ghouls, direwolves, fell bats and bat swarms (if the caster had one of The Master powers, of course).

WusteGeist
01-04-2008, 08:42
This is all very nice and just says what common sense should have said already, that and the damn rules are clear as ice on many of these, but thats another rant. The problem this well intend, post creates is thus. The Rules boys as they are known, are not known for giving you a correct answer every time. In fact a joke in bad humor on there dime is you call them 3 times get the different answers to the same question. So I must say in all humility, this post should have not been done.

A good effort with the best intent behind it, but will just add more flames to a fire already stoked out of control by GW's inability to proof check a codex throughly before releasing it to the open market.

treben I salute you for your effort.

EvC
01-04-2008, 11:16
Yes, nice effort, though the person who answered your question has invalidated his response by giving an answer that completely goes against the rules written in the book (on bats). Put it in an official FAQ, sure, but until then, there's no reason to think they count as non-infantry...

The Clairvoyant
01-04-2008, 11:32
That's very useful to hear it all from an official source :)

I'm surprised people are having trouble with Vanhels being cast into combat since the spell has a specific effect while in hth...

Fell bats and Bat swarms only gaining a wound per casting of IoN does make sense considering this is how it works on Dire wolves, it will be nice when they release an official errata for it though as Grishnakh99 points out you have a good argument that Fellbats count as infantry.

I really don't see how you can call bats "infantry". OK, so it calls them that on the back page but its a reference sheet, not an integral part of the book. If others want to call them infantry then thats up to them, but i'll carry on playing them as counting as flyers, not walky troops. Afterall, the armies book states that fell bats and bat swarms are 'Flying units'.
Calling them infantry makes no sense to me.

T10
01-04-2008, 11:52
The only unit category they fit are indeed Infantry. Check page, uh, seven? Yeah! Page 7.

-T10

Festus
01-04-2008, 11:59
counting as flyers, not walky troops. ...
Calling them infantry makes no sense to me.
Don't you just love it if people writing about rules use the proper rules' terms ...

Walky Troops - man, that is a good one:

*He, mate, are those walky troops over there?*
*No, old boy, those are my hopping thingamyjingas - or whatever they are called...*
*Oh, so you mean they are flapping around a lot?*
*Yes yes, they can do some great distance, like so much [shows about two feet in the air] and don't mind this funny modeled stuff on the table - they are the roxxorz, really!*
*Ta for the info, mate ... so, where do I push my walky troops then?*


Festus

Lordmonkey
01-04-2008, 12:11
Walky Troops - man, that is a good one:

*He, mate, are those walky troops over there?*
*No, old boy, those are my hopping thingamyjingas - or whatever they are called...*
*Oh, so you mean they are flapping around a lot?*
*Yes yes, they can do some great distance, like so much [shows about two feet in the air] and don't mind this funny modeled stuff on the table - they are the roxxorz, really!*
*Ta for the info, mate ... so, where do I push my walky troops then?*

Lulz. GW should introduce 'Walky' as a new unit type. Such troops would sniff one anothers arses, **** on the carpet and wake you up every morning for "walky's".

The Clairvoyant
01-04-2008, 15:38
sure, take the **** if you like. :P

'Walky' troops may not be a pre-defined term in the rulebook but its just the way i like to describe things in a more fun way

Skeletons, zombies, ghouls and graveguard are all walky troops - infantry.

Dire wolves, black knights and blood knights are horsey troops - cavalry

Fell Bats and bat swarms are not walky and they are not horsey. they are flyers. (or birdy troops :P)

EvC
01-04-2008, 15:52
So... does that mean a unit of Fell Bats in a forest get D6 wounds back, since they're walkies at that point ;)

DarthBinky
01-04-2008, 16:29
Back when the second 3rd edition CSM Codex came out (the one which was recently replaced), I emailed customer service with 13 questions (seemed appropriate) about it.

They got 7 wrong according to the subsequent FAQ (came out a month later).

And at least one was wrong just based on reading the Codex carefully- they said that the old "Favored" rules applied to any army, not just the Cult forces.

So always take any answers from customer service with a grain of salt, I say.

siphon101
01-04-2008, 17:29
sure, take the **** if you like. :P

'Walky' troops may not be a pre-defined term in the rulebook but its just the way i like to describe things in a more fun way

Skeletons, zombies, ghouls and graveguard are all walky troops - infantry.

Dire wolves, black knights and blood knights are horsey troops - cavalry

Fell Bats and bat swarms are not walky and they are not horsey. they are flyers. (or birdy troops :P)

And yet therein lies the problem.

"Infantry" is a unit type. "Cavalry" is a unit type. "Flyers" is not. There is no identification in the VC book, or the core rulebook that defines a unit type as "Flier".

"Flying" is not a unit type designation. It merely describes that which can fly. There are infantry, cavalry, monsters, characters, war machines and mounts. But no such unit classification as "fliers". Nor does it at any point say that a model with the "fly" special rule can not be infantry.

In fact, the two main contention that fell bats are not infantry is that 1) they're on large based 2) they have multiple wounds and 3) they fly. Well neither one of those is preventative. Ogres are multiwound models on large bases, they are infantry. Chaos furies are classified as infantry that flies. Neither one of those is preventative of being infantry, and while I can think of no other example of multiwound large based flying infantry, none of those alone preclude it from being infantry and there is nothing that says the combination of the three should either.

Avian
01-04-2008, 17:33
I really don't see how you can call bats "infantry".
Fell Bats are infantry according to the rulebook and being called that in the army book as well is just icing on the cake.


In any case, the original meaning of "infantry" (being like infants, i.e not like proper soldiers* hasn't got anything to do with being on foot, that is just a coincidence.



* knights, these were feudal times, y'know

siphon101
01-04-2008, 17:34
I really don't see how you can call bats "infantry". OK, so it calls them that on the back page but its a reference sheet, not an integral part of the book. If others want to call them infantry then thats up to them, but i'll carry on playing them as counting as flyers, not walky troops.

Because, again, "flyers" is not a unit type. As noted, check page 7, it details what the unit types are (infantry, character, cavalry etc.) Flyers are not among them.

Belerophon709
01-04-2008, 21:31
Do Dire Wolfs, Fell Bats and Bat Swarms count as infantry for Nehek spell?

No they do not, infantry are models that have a unit strength of one and are on foot. Bat swarms are monsters, dire wolves are cavalry and fell bats are flying units.




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Once again GW-staff proves that they don't know their own rules.

BRB pg.7: "Infantry includes all units of foot troops, be they Goblins, Men, Ogres, Trolls or any other of the myriad Warhammer races fighting on foor. Normally, infantry models are mounted on a 20mm, 25mm or 40mm wide square base."

Last time I checked, ogres and trolls were US3.

GodHead
01-04-2008, 21:45
Well, it's just some poor minimum wage desk jockey answering the questions. I probably already have put more thought into them than he did. Give him a break.

Malorian
01-04-2008, 21:56
Well, it's just some poor minimum wage desk jockey answering the questions. I probably already have put more thought into them than he did. Give him a break.

Minimum wage or not, they still have to do their job.

If they don't know the answer, or it's an issue that should be FAQ'd then they should say so instead of these paid representatives all giving different answers.

The Clairvoyant
01-04-2008, 22:06
Because, again, "flyers" is not a unit type. As noted, check page 7, it details what the unit types are (infantry, character, cavalry etc.) Flyers are not among them.

The vampire book says they are a 'flying unit'. If there is no such thing as a 'flying unit', one could argue (rather pointlessly :D) that fell bats cannot fly. It doesn't say in their rules that they fly. It says they are a flying unit, and according to what people are saying here, there are no rules for 'flying units'

But look at it this way - if i treat them now as non-infantry then any official FAQ can only make things better for me. I'd much rather go from raising 1 wound to raising D6 wounds than the other way round :)

Regarding the other rules arguments going on at the mo for vamps (yes i realise none of this is mentioned in this thread but it saves me typing it elsewhere), i'm not the kind of person to stick a corpse cart in a unit (the base size is all wrong and it looks messy) so all those arguments about how many ranks etc it uses up, i'm immune to.

I believe its always better to play the rules with the pessimistic reading rather than the optimist as that way, things only ever get better.
(although i do play that IoN works in combat :D)

Nurgling Chieftain
01-04-2008, 22:34
Minimum wage or not, they still have to do their job.Their job is to answer, not to be right. ;)

treben1234
01-04-2008, 23:30
Wow well in tell they get the rules right I miles well use the old codex so neather me or my opponet gets cheated while we play a game.

loveless
02-04-2008, 00:27
Units of Flyers are detailed on page 69 of the Rulebook.
There are units of Flyers, and then units of Flying Cavalry.

I'd say just go by the rules under "Flying Units" when trying to determine if Fell Bats are Infantry or not.

P.S. - I'd go with "infantry" after reading page 69

siphon101
02-04-2008, 01:20
The vampire book says they are a 'flying unit'. If there is no such thing as a 'flying unit', one could argue (rather pointlessly :D) that fell bats cannot fly. It doesn't say in their rules that they fly. It says they are a flying unit, and according to what people are saying here, there are no rules for 'flying units'


Units of Flyers are detailed on page 69 of the Rulebook.
There are units of Flyers, and then units of Flying Cavalry.

And once again there is a difference between "a flying unit" and a flyer unit type. Read what it says on page 69:

Most flyers are single model units, like monsters or characters, but some units of troops can fly too

A "flying unit" is a unit that flies. Nothing more or less. It is not a unit type. Read page 6-7 of the BRB under the heading "Unit Type". They are:

Infantry
Cavalry
War Machines
Chariots
Characters
Monsters

Once again, "flying unit" only means a unit (of any type) that flies. You can have flying infantry, flying cavalry, flying war machines, flying chariots, flying characters, and flying monsters. The only reason "flying cavalry" is segmented off is because flying cavalry follow slightly different rules.

A flying unit is a unit that flies. Fell bats are not unit type "flyer". They can only be one of the 6 catagories, infantry, cavalry, war machine, chariot, character, or monster. It's clearly not a cavalry, war machine, chariot or character, and that means it must be either infantry, or monster. It can not be a "flyer" unit type as "flyer" is not a unit type at all. It's either infantry, or monster. And the VC book clearly identifies it as "infantry".

So they're infantry. "Flyer" is not a unit type. It's very clear, page 6. If you can show me how "flyer" is a unit type I'll retract. But it does not. It falls into one of 6 catagories, and the VC book clearly identifies it as "infantry"

Spirit
02-04-2008, 19:00
The vampire book says they are a 'flying unit'. If there is no such thing as a 'flying unit', one could argue (rather pointlessly :D) that fell bats cannot fly. It doesn't say in their rules that they fly. It says they are a flying unit, and according to what people are saying here, there are no rules for 'flying units'


Ok, so let me get this straight. You are saying, they are a flying unit type, because there are no rules for flying unit types in the brb... Theres something a little off about that.

If there are no rules for flying units, how can they be a unit type of flyer (or flying unit) seeing as there are no rules for them?

Does this mean i can make them "biker units" that can turbo boost? Theres no rules for that in the brb either.

Also, while on the subject, vampires are "characters" without the flying rule, with the flying rule do they become "flying units" seeing as they are just upgraded bats. They can still choose to walk, as bats can. But if they are flying units, then they cant be characters, so they can't take up a hero choice surely. Does that mean i can have unlimited vampires in my army? All with flying?

woytek
02-04-2008, 19:06
If there are no rules for flying units, how can they be a unit type of flyer (or flying unit) seeing as there are no rules for them?

Does this mean i can make them "biker units" that can turbo boost? Theres no rules for that in the brb either.

Also, while on the subject, vampires are "characters" without the flying rule, with the flying rule do they become "flying units" seeing as they are just upgraded bats. They can still choose to walk, as bats can. But if they are flying units, then they cant be characters, so they can't take up a hero choice surely. Does that mean i can have unlimited vampires in my army? All with flying?

Hmm.. on the other hand, if you deploy him on foot then he must be infantry. In that case he is not a character and will not take up a hero slot! You can have unlimited vampires without flying!!!one!11!one!

GodHead
02-04-2008, 19:31
There are rules for "Flying Units" but Flying Units are not a unit type.

The Clairvoyant
02-04-2008, 19:54
Ok, so let me get this straight. You are saying, they are a flying unit type, because there are no rules for flying unit types in the brb... Theres something a little off about that.

If there are no rules for flying units, how can they be a unit type of flyer (or flying unit) seeing as there are no rules for them?

Does this mean i can make them "biker units" that can turbo boost? Theres no rules for that in the brb either.

Also, while on the subject, vampires are "characters" without the flying rule, with the flying rule do they become "flying units" seeing as they are just upgraded bats. They can still choose to walk, as bats can. But if they are flying units, then they cant be characters, so they can't take up a hero choice surely. Does that mean i can have unlimited vampires in my army? All with flying?

yup! fab eh? :D

Anyway my point is (i think i had a point, i can't remember) is that for now i'm going to treat bats an non-infantry cos to me they're not infantry, despite what the lawyers say. How i play does not affect anyone else. If i'm wrong to treat them as non-infantry, the only person it affects is me.

GodHead
02-04-2008, 20:02
But why would you do that when you're clearly wrong? It just makes no sense. I would be the last person to argue that Vampires need more advantages, but I can't fathom why you would put yourself in that position.

The Vampire book has a little page that summarizes what unit type they are, so you're clearly, unambiguously wrong. There's no room for any other option, no room for discussion, so your position is baffling.

The Clairvoyant
02-04-2008, 20:21
But why would you do that when you're clearly wrong? It just makes no sense. I would be the last person to argue that Vampires need more advantages, but I can't fathom why you would put yourself in that position.

The Vampire book has a little page that summarizes what unit type they are, so you're clearly, unambiguously wrong. There's no room for any other option, no room for discussion, so your position is baffling.

I like to baffle.
But either way the rule is very unlikely to affect me unless i play a bigger game. I haven't and i don't intend to cast IoN on bats and i'm unlikely to ever take summon creatures of the night.
My army is infantry-based. By that i mean its made up of skellies and grave guard :P
I take little cavalry (maybe one or two units of knights) and bats never kill anything. Last time i used bats, i charged 3 units of them into a single unit of crossbowmen and lost combat :D

EvC
03-04-2008, 09:09
It doesn't affect me either as I have no Fell bats in my army. But I'm not going to take the counter-intuitive position of ignoring all the evidence that states that flying infantry units are infantry.