PDA

View Full Version : Always strikes first vs always strikes first with great weapons.



Forbiddenknowledge
01-04-2008, 10:01
Just a quick question, something that came up in a game last night.

Unit of HE swordmasters vs unit of skeletons. Skeletons have been given ASF because of the corpse cart bound spell.

Now, rules state that in the event of two units having the rule, it goes to initiative order.

Fine, skellies are striking after.

But wait, the SM have great weapons, so should they not strike last, as per the great weapon rules? I was told that no, they will still strike in Initiative order, as they have been training for hundreds of years (so no specific rule, just the background).

So what happens? The way I read the rules, it goes to I order, as per the ASF rules. Then, the SM strike last, as per the Great Weapon rules, because fluff/=rules.

But it does seem a bit ambiguous, so how is it resolved?

theunwantedbeing
01-04-2008, 10:08
Look under the rules for great weapons on page 54, or 52?
Basically it says "whenever initiutive is used to determine the striking order, a model with a weapon that strikes last will strike last".
So swordsmasters using great weapons will strike after skeletons who get ASF.

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 10:10
Allessio has indicated that the FAQ answer for ASF vs ASF will have the combat revert to the standard "Who Strikes First?" order, so chargers will go first, great weapons last, etc.

Currently, theunwantedbeing's answer is correct.

Chaos Undecided
01-04-2008, 10:14
Speed of the Asur says that High Elves have ASF regardless of weapon type which could seem to suggest they do ignore the usual 2 hander coming last rule when against other troops also using ASF.

But I think general consensus is great weapons go last the rule from the previous book about swordmasters always striking at initiative order has no relevance anymore

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 10:18
They have the ASF rule regardless of what weapon they have - that is not the same as saying they always strike first regardless of what weapon they have.

Seriously, this does not need to be discussed ad nauseam again - the rules currently mean "Strikes Last" is the only special situation where ASF vs ASF is not resolved in initiative order, but will be changed by FAQ soon(haha) such that "Who Strikes First?" comes into play.

Forbiddenknowledge
01-04-2008, 11:36
Thats what I said, but was shouted down. Its fine if they had normal hand weapons, as then they would strike in I order, but I order is altered because of the great weapons.

Festus
01-04-2008, 11:48
Hi

The Elves go first:

If both have ASF, it is just Initiative, nothing else - no charging, no great weapon, nothing but a straight comparison of I.
cf. BRB, p.94 (I guess, as the sequence of the special rules in the German book is different due to the alphabetical order).

Don't let yourself be fooled by the *rgardless of weapon type* bit in the HE rules, nor by the rules on p.34, as the only rule to apply is the Special Rule *Always Strike First*, which is to be found on p.94.

Festus

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 12:00
Oh, for the love of Asuryan.

The Elves strike last. They have a strikes last weapon. The rule on page 94 does not tell us to apply only the rule on page 94. The elves are striking in initiative order, and so the Strikes Last rule, which applies in any situation where initiative order is being used, applies.

Festus
01-04-2008, 12:09
Hi

My rulebook says something else, I am afraid:

It says on p.94 that you have to compare Initiative to determine who strikes first and to roll off with equal I values.
Nothing else.

The rules for *always strikes last* tell us something about phases in which the troopers would *normally* strike in I order - referring back to the *Who strikes first?* rules, which is not the case with ASF, as they simply do not apply this rule.

We have a logical circle here, I am afraid, if we start to cross-reference the rules for *always strikes last*, *always strikes first*, and *Who strikes first?*, because we will always come back to the next rule to decide the effects of the last one.

We can only escape this circle if we take each rule on its own merit.

Festus

warlord hack'a
01-04-2008, 12:30
so, we will wait till the faq, till that time I have no access to asf anyway, so I could not care less. Those who do: in my opinion GW strike last, so the skellies would go first.

Crispian25
01-04-2008, 12:44
Initiative is the deciding factor if both units have ASF. When a unit charges, the great weapons don't force it to strike last, and every other piece of literature says that initiative is the deciding factor. If you both have the same initiative, roll a d6.

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 14:00
It says on p.94 that you have to compare Initiative to determine who strikes first and to roll off with equal I values.
Nothing else.Who strikes first? doesn't mention Strikes Last either, does that mean Great Weapons have no effect in normal combats?


The rules for *always strikes last* tell us something about phases in which the troopers would *normally* strike in I order

The word "normally" does not appear anywhere in the Strikes Last rule.
The rule simply says that models strike last if they would otherwise strike in initiative order. ASF vs ASF is one situation where they would otherwise (ie if they did not Strike Last) strike in Initiative order.


We have a logical circle here, I am afraid, if we start to cross-reference the rules for *always strikes last*, *always strikes first*, and *Who strikes first?*, because we will always come back to the next rule to decide the effects of the last one.No we won't, because Strikes Last has an exit clause, that is that if both models have Strikes Last to refer to initiative, and if initiative is equal, then to dice off.

None of the arguments you have offered hold water, sorry.

GodHead
01-04-2008, 14:03
Allessio has indicated that the FAQ answer for ASF vs ASF will have the combat revert to the standard "Who Strikes First?" order, so chargers will go first, great weapons last, etc.

Currently, theunwantedbeing's answer is correct.

There will NEVER be a FAQ. History has shown us this.

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 14:18
No, history has shown us that FAQs do arrive, albeit irregularly.

EvC
01-04-2008, 15:45
"The sun has always risen before, so it will rise tomorrow" is a fallacy ;) (Damn my university and the BS philosophy classes they've made me take!)

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 16:04
I knew someone would say that, however it is no more fallacious than GodHead's "the sun hasn't risen for a while, therefore it will never rise again" ;)

Forbiddenknowledge
01-04-2008, 16:06
I saw it as a 3 tiered process.

1 - check ASF. Both have it, so check I

2 - Compared I. Elves have higher, and so go first.

3 - Now compare weapons. Skellies have hand weapon, no difference. SM have Great Weapons. Rules for them are strikes last.

Seemed like the best way to do it.

EvC
01-04-2008, 16:12
I knew someone would say that, however it is no more fallacious than GodHead's "the sun hasn't risen for a while, therefore it will never rise again" ;)

Okay okay... you're both using fallacious reasoning :D

Though we should expect the FAQ at some point, yes. Shame all the High Elf bandwagonners are going to have jumped to VCs and Daemons, with all the problems inherent to those books (There's some fallacious reasoning from me: just because every other book has a multitude of problems, doesn't mean Daemons will. But it will) by the time the HE FAQ is out ;)

Deacon Bane
01-04-2008, 16:20
I agree with Festus on this.
These are special rules, that override the norm, IMO. They should be treated as individual rules and not intertwined. The "Always strikes first" rule overrides the normal Initiative order, just because your opponenet has this same ability does not negate yours. So compare Initiatives to see who's Strike first is fastest. The "strikes last " rule is in the weapon section and is part of the normal rules. IMO Special Rules don't follow the norm. That's why they are special.

Soul of Iron
01-04-2008, 16:33
I have never understood this debate.

The rules for ASF are clear in the BRB on page 94. It does not ask you to cross reference article 37a under the Rotsky clause on page 27. The rules are clearly defined and simple to understand.

But you can say that till you are blue in the face to some people. That's why I gave up on the huge thread on this retarded topic that was posted here a few weeks back.

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 16:39
just because your opponenet has this same ability does not negate yours.Neither does it say that having ASF negates SL.

We are bound to apply all of the rules, not just some.

Gobbo Lord
01-04-2008, 17:24
Being a player where ASF is limited to a footslogging special character, i have not come across this problem. However if it did crop up I would give it to the skellies as Great Weapons reduce I to 0 no matter how many hundred years of training the fluff says you have. You cant use fluff as a rules decider, most armies have fluff which doesnt gel with their rules. "Orcs live to fight. For an Orc there is no greater joy than to be in the thick of a battle..." then why do they always run away! surely they would fight to the end loving every minute of it . Fluff and rules are different.

Forbiddenknowledge
01-04-2008, 17:26
Ah, but its not an I reduction, it merely says strikes last.

However a good point has been raised - they both have ASF still, but the higher Initiative ASF takes precedence.

Yehoshua
01-04-2008, 19:14
Whatever, I was right that Games Workshop intended ASF v. ASF to revert to the ordinary Who Strikes First mechanics. So I win. And that faq will arrive ANY DAY NOW. *sobbing*

Atrahasis
01-04-2008, 19:24
Not quite - it wasn't the intent, it's just the easiest way to fix the problem.

Yehoshua
01-04-2008, 20:03
With all the nitpicking around here, you'd think that this was the Rules Forum. Jesus.

SuperBeast
01-04-2008, 23:05
End of story.
It most certainly is, as the FAQ would appear to agree.

The only alteration is the inclusion of charging strike order bonus in the ASF tiebreak... :)

Belerophon709
02-04-2008, 23:22
It most certainly is, as the FAQ would appear to agree.

The only alteration is the inclusion of charging strike order bonus in the ASF tiebreak... :)

Indeed, but until then, the rules are what they are and GWs would strike last in the case of ASF vs. ASF. Not that I mind the change at all - would suit me just perfect.

SuperBeast
02-04-2008, 23:33
Indeed, but until then, the rules are what they are and GWs would strike last in the case of ASF vs. ASF.
You might want to keep your voice down; I agree with you, but they'll send the Ordo Semanticus after you...

treben1234
03-04-2008, 00:12
Who Stikes first?
Thats who.
No I mean who stikes first?
who
o forget it, who stikes last?
who does
who stikes last?
who
So who stikes first and last?
who and the other who
Theres more then one?

SuperBeast
03-04-2008, 00:46
Treben, have you been drinking?
That's two posts you've made tonight that read like you typed them whilst trying not to fall off your chair...

forthegloryofkazadekrund
03-04-2008, 09:08
the swordmasters have asf, the skeletons have asf, then its a simple iniative check to see whos higher and who strikes first is it not?

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 09:10
Yes, and it's a simple application of the Strikes Last rule.

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2008, 10:04
Yes, and it's a simple application of the Strikes Last rule.

QFT. Hope that FAQ comes out soon.

Greystone
03-04-2008, 16:03
My to cents on the subject is this. Do the weapons matter? And if no then the question becomes special rule VS special rule, which has a clearly defined outcome in the BRB.

In my interpretation the rules for ASF override the ones for a great weapon, and ASF is never removed from either combatant, so the weapon stats remain overridden, and you resolve attack order based on I just as the BRB entry details.

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 16:14
In my interpretation the rules for ASF override the ones for a great weaponIn that case, your interpretation includes rules that do not exist.

ASF does not override Strikes Last, it merely changes the circumstances so that Strikes Last is not triggered. ASF vs ASF allows that triggering circumstance to arise again.

forthegloryofkazadekrund
03-04-2008, 16:18
my opinion is that the high elves would strike first because of thier highter iniative despite having great weapons as they have asf always, the weapon issue is irrelivent imho

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 16:21
Your opinion is trumped by the rules I'm afraid, and the rules do not support your opinion.

Greystone
03-04-2008, 16:30
In that case, your interpretation includes rules that do not exist.

ASF does not override Strikes Last, it merely changes the circumstances so that Strikes Last is not triggered. ASF vs ASF allows that triggering circumstance to arise again.

Exactly what gives you that impression? where is it stated in the rules for ASF Vs ASF, does it state that ASF is no longer in effect for one or both sides? In the description of ASF Vs ASF it states that you compare I not "use all normal turn order rules".

EvC
03-04-2008, 16:33
No, it doesn't say use the normal turn order rules, you are correct. But it does say, for great weapons, that in any situations when the order of fighting is decided by initiative, the great weapon armed troops go last. This is undeniably one of those situations.

Greystone
03-04-2008, 16:48
No, it doesn't say use the normal turn order rules, you are correct. But it does say, for great weapons, that in any situations when the order of fighting is decided by initiative, the great weapon armed troops go last. This is undeniably one of those situations.

Actually the rule for Strikes last states this "Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in I order". Unless a weapon can strike both first and last a GR with ASF has had its SL rule overridden as long as the ability is in place. obviously you can not strike first and last. Once again just my interpretation.

EvC
03-04-2008, 16:58
Of course a weapon cannot both strike first and last. It can, however, very easily strike first in most situations, but not in others. One occasion when a model with ASF doesn't automatically strike first is when he's fighting another model with ASF. In that case, it's a situation where they would otherwise strike in I order. Just like you typed :)

Remember, ASF is just the name of the rule. The content of the rule is important. ASF could have been named "Always strikes first except where two models with this rule are fighting, in which case use initiative", but that's quite a long title, and anyway, it's just repeating the actual rule given.

Festus
03-04-2008, 17:13
Hi

Your opinion is trumped by the rules I'm afraid, and the rules do not support your opinion.
I have to admit that I have never before read such a strw-man reply from you, Atrahasis - and with such little proof or interpretation or explanation, either.

I am somewhat disapointed, as you do not adress the *real* question at hand: What makes you think that ASF refers you back to the *ńSL* rules? I see no clue whatsoever here...

Festus

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 17:16
The normal rules for "Who Strikes First" don't refer us to the SL rules either, and yet they apply in that instance.

SL applies until we are told it does not - we aren't told it doesn't apply, and so it does.

Festus
03-04-2008, 17:28
But it doesn't apply: The parameters when it applies are given in the rule, and it doesn't say that you use SL if you compare I values, but only in turns *when you would *normally* use the sequence based on the Initiative*, referring us back to the *normal* strike first rules, hence the exceptions for chargers.

Festus

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 17:47
I repeat, the word "normal[ly]" does not appear in the SL rules at all.

Models with SL strike last where the combatants would otherwise (ie if they did not have the SL rule) strike in Initiative order.

guillaume
03-04-2008, 17:56
"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last during close combat where they would otherwise strike in I order". .

That seems to put an end to the question then:

both have ASF -> go to initiative

High elves have higher initiative-

But wait, SL weapons always strike last regardless of Initiative.

Thus skeletons hit first.

Tada!

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2008, 18:34
Festus wont like it. That's precisely what Atrahasis is saying.

Greystone
03-04-2008, 21:54
A ISP outage kept me from replying sooner than this, but here is one last try and explaining my point of view.

A great weapon in the hands of a model with the ASF rule is not using the Strikes last rule.

Even in combat with another unit that strikes first. The description of the ASF rule tells us which normal rules are used to determine strike order (none, ASF units strike first) regardless of charge order or I or the strikes last rule.

They go on to say that if both units have ASF you use I, (not charge order, Strikes last or any other rules).

My question is this, when do you stop superseding SL and allow it to matter? this is not right or wrong as I see it just my interpretation.

Its largely a moot point at any rate, because in a tournament setting or even in casual play, it will fall to the players(or a rules judge) to hash this out. Until the fabled FAQ comes out and states who is "Right" or "Wrong".

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 22:28
SL is never "superseded", it's trigger just doesn't happen if charging or if one side or the other has ASF.

If there are no charges, and no-one has ASF (or both have) then it's trigger (Initiative comparison) happens, and so the wielder strikes last.

Xirathnix
03-04-2008, 23:24
I play VCs and use both great weapons and ASF. ASF only negates SL of a great weapon when the opponent doesnt have ASF. It tells you to strike first unless the opponent has the same rule and then go by initiative. Greatweapons tell you to strike last when you would otherwise strike in Initiative order.

To say that it only tells you to go by I and therefore ignore the SL rule of GW would be the exact same as saying you NEVER SL with a GW. Why do I say that? Because under "Who strike first?" it says the same thing almost exactly as ASF.

-troops who have charged strike first

-Otherwise blows are struck in STRICT order of initiative. (emphasis mine)

it also says nothing about the SL rule just like ASF, so by your logic, GWs never strike last.


edit: The above poster is correct you arent superseding it. You are only preventing the instance of comparing I which is SLs trigger.

Greystone
03-04-2008, 23:41
I play VCs and use both great weapons and ASF. ASF only negates SL of a great weapon when the opponent doesnt have ASF. It tells you to strike first unless the opponent has the same rule and then go by initiative. Greatweapons tell you to strike last when you would otherwise strike in Initiative order.

To say that it only tells you to go by I and therefore ignore the SL rule of GW would be the exact same as saying you NEVER SL with a GW. Why do I say that? Because under "Who strike first?" it says the same thing almost exactly as ASF.

-troops who have charged strike first

-Otherwise blows are struck in STRICT order of initiative. (emphasis mine)

it also says nothing about the SL rule just like ASF, so by your logic, GWs never strike last.


edit: The above poster is correct you arent superseding it. You are only preventing the instance of comparing I which is SLs trigger.

Im still a bit perplexed, if you go by normal charge order then do charging ASF GW armed troops strike before ASF troops with Higher I due to the fact that Charging GW strike first? This would seem to counteract the rule stating that you resolve it by I.

and yes in the case of GW on a model with ASF, I do not believe they ever strike last unless stated by there I. Once again, "I think" "I believe". Please stop telling me I'm wrong as I have never stated I am sure to be right. Its open enough for three pages of "debate" its open enough to hash it out on a personal basis, call a rules judge or dice it. No point in claiming a concrete answer on either side.

Goose
04-04-2008, 00:29
I don't want to steal a thread totally not start a new one for a small question is very similar.

Lets say a non ASF unit with great weapons charges. Do they strike first? Or last because of great weapons?

Masque
04-04-2008, 02:33
Lets say a non ASF unit with great weapons charges. Do they strike first? Or last because of great weapons?

They will strike before any opponents who do not have ASF.

Arryn
04-04-2008, 05:29
So whats the end result? GW rules in play or no?

Yehoshua
04-04-2008, 05:34
Addendum to what Masque wrote: other charging units that do not Strike Last would go before charging non-ASF GWs.

SuperBeast
04-04-2008, 09:23
Addendum to what Masque wrote: other charging units that do not Strike Last would go before charging non-ASF GWs.
No, because when charging, attacks are simultaneous.
Initiative is not used, so ASL doesn't apply.

Noldo
04-04-2008, 12:01
I try to illustrate this question with three examples.

1.) Unit of Swordmasters (I5, ASF, GW) is in combat with unit of skeletons that have spell cast on them (I2, ASF, Hand weapon).

2.) Unit of Swordmasters (I5, ASF, GW) is in combat with unit of skeletons that have spell cast on them (I2, ASF, Hand weapon) and unit of Grave Guard with no spells cast on them (I3, Hand weapon)

3.) Unit of Swordmasters (I5, ASF, GW) is charged by unit of Grave Guard with great weapons and spell cast on them (I3, ASF, GW).

What should be striking order in each case and why?

theunwantedbeing
04-04-2008, 12:06
1. Skellies, they dont have great weapons.

2. Skellies, as above, then swordsmasters, then grave guard...the swordsmasters still have ASF remember, they'll only strike last vs the skellies, not the grave guard.

3. Swordsmasters, highest initiutive as both sides have GW and ASF.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2008, 12:18
Sounds right to me.

Though it would make more sense to revert to standard striking order if both units have ASF alowing the GG to strike first in example 3.

Somebody mentioned this might be the way we're told to resolve it in a future FAQ but until then see theunwantedbeing's post above

Noldo
04-04-2008, 12:23
The thing is that I would say option 2 demonstrates that there is difference between "Striking in initiative order" (as used in Always Strike Last -rule) and using initiative to determine the order units strike (as used in Always Strike First).

In the second case, even theunwantedbeing does not suggest that Swordmasters would strike in initiative order (as required by Always Strike Last), they still strike fist but the decision between units with ASF is based on the initiative value. Applying ASL here would create two cycles of combat order, one for units with ASF and second for other units.

Oh, and the fourth case:
4.) Unit of Swordmasters (I5, ASF, GW) charges unit of skeletons with spell cast on them (I2, ASF, hand weapon).

Who should strike first?

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2008, 12:38
The thing is that I would say option 2 demonstrates that there is difference between "Striking in initiative order" (as used in Always Strike Last -rule) and using initiative to determine the order units strike (as used in Always Strike First).


Nowhere in the BRB will you find a method for using initiative to determine the order in which units strike outside of "striking in intiative order".

Once you start striking in initiative order you need to take strikes last into consideration.

theunwantedbeing
04-04-2008, 12:48
4. The skellies....as the swordsmasters have great weapons.

It's really simple to understand.
ASF vs ASF you go off initiutive.
Great weapons make you fight last when you use initituive

ASF with a great weapon is still ASF so you fight before non ASF troops.

Atrahasis
04-04-2008, 13:44
No, because when charging, attacks are simultaneous.
Initiative is not used, so ASL doesn't apply.

Nope. When two units on opposite sides are fighting each other and both have charged, Initiative is used, and so Strikes Last would apply.

As theunwantedbeing says, this isn't complicated. If, at any time, initiative is being used to determine which of two units will strike first, the unit with Strikes Last loses out.

SuperBeast
04-04-2008, 14:07
Nope. When two units on opposite sides are fighting each other and both have charged, Initiative is used, and so Strikes Last would apply.

As theunwantedbeing says, this isn't complicated. If, at any time, initiative is being used to determine which of two units will strike first, the unit with Strikes Last loses out.

I was under the impression that charges from the same side in the same phase were simultaneous, but multiple chargers (e.g. black orcs charging greatswords who overran into goblins in the previous combat phase) were dealt with in reverse charge order?

I've been over the strike order numerous times on this topic, so I'm probably guilty of misinterpretation rather than missing something.

What page is this?

Atrahasis
04-04-2008, 14:12
"If charging models are fighting other models that count as charging, solve their attacks in Initiative order (roll off if same Initiative)" pp 45

Empire Detachments work differently (countercharging detachments strike before chargers), and any chargers one side strike at the same time, but chargers fighting chargers is resolved by I.

Joezombie
04-04-2008, 19:41
Im for the Skellies attaking first, but if this situation ever comes up can I explain it to my opponent as
They both have ASF so we got by Initiave
Great weapons state that whenever we go by Initiaive they go last
As such you go last.

Is this correct?

theunwantedbeing
04-04-2008, 20:06
Yes that is correct.