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crimslain
01-04-2008, 20:53
Ok guys, since there is only a 25 point difference in the Varghulf and Black Coach, which do you think is better. Both can be killed easily by a cannonball/Str. 7 weapon, Varghulf wouldnt get regen from fire, BC has a 4+ Ward save, basically same amount of attacks ( Varghulf 5 Str. 5 attacks, BC D6 Impact hits, 3 Str. attacks, 2 Str. 4 attacks) Varghulf Hatred all the time, doesnt have rear or flank) I really not sure which is better to take. I am already including 1 BC in my army for sure, not sure on the 2nd one.

fubukii
01-04-2008, 21:04
i wouldnt run 2 coaches seems a little overkill, id say it depends on the rest of your army, if you run alot of power dice the coach is probably better if you dont got that many id go with the varg

crimslain
01-04-2008, 21:05
Ive got 13 PD in the army, until I get mannfred(the better one) to combat, then I have more:)

Cragspyder
02-04-2008, 03:34
How do you decide which one absorbs the power dice with 2 Black Coaches? Do you pick the one you want to try for first, and then remaining dice get rolled for again to see if they are also absorbed?

Seems like 2 Coaches might be able to save you a little bit on magic defense.

Nkari
02-04-2008, 09:18
2 Black coaches are a waste imho.. since they compeate for the 2-3 dices you roll each turn.

Varghulf ftw.. =) (Peronally I would take cairn wraiths.. :P )

skilett
02-04-2008, 09:34
@Cragspyder: You roll the dice as usual, then any 6's are randomized between the two coaches. Unless the dice are from a wizard within 6 inches of only one coach, then the coach that made the wizard roll his powerdice would be the one to benefit.
Hope thats clear.

Kalist
02-04-2008, 12:55
Do you guys know if the Varghulf can use his regeneration to save against wounds incurred as a result of Combat Resolution? If so, where does it say this in the VC book/rule book? Just interested for future reference. Thanks.

Kabal of The Ordo Mallius
02-04-2008, 15:27
yes the Varghulf can regenerate due to crumbling. YOu may now use regen/ward saves to prevent crumbling. No armour saves are allowed still.

skilett
02-04-2008, 15:42
It isn't mentioned that you can take ward and regeneration saves against crumbling, rather it is not forbidden in the rules. In the section with undead rules in the VC book it says armour saves can't be taken against crumbling, but no mention of other saves, hence you can use those.

Mayax61
02-04-2008, 17:08
I think both are situational. You obviously don't want to run black Coaches when you know you'll be facing strength 7 attacks. The Varghulf is a better all around unit, meaning you can find ways to use it against almost any army if you are smart. However, against an army without str 7 attacks the BC can be brutal. Especially against High Elves where they generate alot of extra dice in their pool.

spartan116
02-04-2008, 17:20
The Varghulf is a vampire so it shouldn't be effected by crumbling. At least thats true if I remember right. Also depends on if by crumbling you mean the general dying off.

Mayax61
02-04-2008, 19:51
The Varghulf is a vampire so it shouldn't be effected by crumbling. At least thats true if I remember right. Also depends on if by crumbling you mean the general dying off.

I'm pretty sure he was talking about crumbling as a result of losing combat res.

Karhedron
02-04-2008, 20:32
The Varghulf is a vampire so it shouldn't be effected by crumbling. At least thats true if I remember right. Also depends on if by crumbling you mean the general dying off.
Actually the Black Coach also has the Vampire special rule so would not be affected either.

praesto
02-04-2008, 21:45
Against a tzeentch army with a bunch of dices in the power pool....a black coach is worth lots of drooling!

spartan116
02-04-2008, 22:36
I'm pretty sure he was talking about crumbling as a result of losing combat res.

Ahh I see. I'm new to fantasy and my buddy who plays says crumbling when he talks about the general dying off. Thanks for the clarification.

Cortomaltese
02-04-2008, 23:51
i've only played once against a wargulf.. it's not so bad, but imho there're better choice..
but if u field one Bc yet and MUST use 2 rare choice, then test it.. it's surely better then the second Bc..

Goldenwolf
03-04-2008, 02:40
Blood Knights are sweet too :)

Spirit
03-04-2008, 03:01
I have used a varghulf in every game ive played so far, and my god im never going back.

Game 1, conversation of doom, 9 wounds, gg varghulf ( not so good)

Game 2, skaven, failed charge because the unit ran away (and into bats, so died) from terror. GOT CHARGED by a ranked up clanrats with assassin AND general. Killed 5 rats turn 1, the assassin turn 2 and the general turn 3, they ran, he chased, then killed ANOTHER unit on his own.

Most recent game against orks he waded through 3 units.

They are so impossible to kill. They always only lose a combat by one or 2 against a ranked up unit, regeneration (and a battle standard) nullifies this completely, and they just munch their points back. And on top of that, anything they do lose gets healed up.

I dont intend to go back to a black coach, too fragile. As for the cannonball comment, on average the varghulf is exactly as good as a coach, but gets 16" movement. As for fire, not alot of armies have fire, and you can hide with a 16" move.

daemonkin
03-04-2008, 14:03
Have yet to try either but I'd say Cairn Wraiths and Spectral Vampire FTW.

Will try out the BC this weekend. I'm just not sold on the varghulf model.

D.

Soul of Iron
03-04-2008, 14:09
The Black Coach defies the boundaries of awesome.

If you have a casting VC army, plant your BC right next to your casters and she'll be flying by turn 2 if you are lucky, turn 3 if you're not. And when it takes wind, you can really hurt things.

brambleten
03-04-2008, 14:10
im planning on Cairn Wraiths with Banshee when my Vamps are finished,but i wouldnt say no to a Varghulf

Canadian_Khan
03-04-2008, 16:57
im planning on Cairn Wraiths with Banshee when my Vamps are finished,but i wouldnt say no to a Varghulf

Agreed

Black Coaches are good, but the Varghulf is darn intimidating... screen it behind a regiment of 30 zombies and see what it can do ;)

The coach... well... if nothing's dispelled but your opponent it can get pretty ugly by turn 3...... but there's always that IF

Scythe
03-04-2008, 17:08
The coach requires a little more thought when fielded. It gets conciderably better in a magic heavy army. Keep your lvl 4, 6 dice generating vampire close to it, possibly another lvl 2 vamp, and you are rolling 10 dice in your own magic phase. Key is to get as many effects from the evocation of death table as fast as possible, to make the coach almost invulnerable to normal attacks. Also keep in mind that all casting dice in the general pool of the opponent are also rolled. Very nice against those Tzeentch armies or high elves with banner of sorcery.

Of course, it is less than optimal against other armies. Dwarves eat the coach alive, etheral or not (and do not grant it any power dice as well).

The vargulf, on the other hand, is easier to include in an army not specifically build to enpower a BC.

Oberon
03-04-2008, 17:16
Double varghulfs work nicely, when used in pairs, they can burst through enemies one would have tied at best. Like fully ranked up regiment, or good heavy cavalry etc. They are sadly vulnerable to certain spells and machines, namely lores of Light and Fire+dwarven machinery. Then again, what is not vulnerable to dwarven machinery (skirmishing dryads yes, but what else :P ). Black coach does not care too much about spells after first few upgrades, MR3 is quite powerful.

The good thing about VC rare choices is, that any of them are playable and most of them are not too expensive.

crimslain
03-04-2008, 20:42
Is an ethereal BC immune to taking damage while moving through terrain? I imagine it is, but not sure.

brambleten
03-04-2008, 20:44
ethereal beings can move through terrain without penalty, as long as they dont stop in it, so yes, id say

crimslain
03-04-2008, 20:47
Am I mistake when I think the BC can be healed with IoN. its a Vampire, so it only get a single wound per casting, but it still can be healed. And yes, i do have a Magically built VC army. 14 PD, but thats at 3500 points.

vinny t
03-04-2008, 20:49
I would take a Black Coach just because it is only 25 more points and I love the evocation of death. It is a really good deal for 200 points.

complexfire
03-04-2008, 20:56
I have been running a black coach and a vargulf.

I send the vargulf up a flank w/ 5 naked Black Knights (since the vargulf is a vamp they get to march) I keep the Black Coach back with my three vamps to power up. People put all there fire into the vargulf as it is in there face 1st turn. The vargulf can normally handle it and the Coach just gets silly very very quickly!

So.. BOTH ROCKS :skull::skull::skull::skull:

brambleten
03-04-2008, 21:17
Am I mistake when I think the BC can be healed with IoN. its a Vampire, so it only get a single wound per casting, but it still can be healed. And yes, i do have a Magically built VC army. 14 PD, but thats at 3500 points.

you are correct, as it is a vamp, it can be healed.

i wish GW would come up with a better name for a special rule than "4+ ward save". i think its there to give people completely the wrong idea. couldnt it be more in keeping with the vampire status or something?

Spirit
04-04-2008, 02:42
ethereal beings can move through terrain without penalty, as long as they dont stop in it, so yes, id say

The wording is that they may move though AND stop in difficult terrain, but cannot stop in impassable terrain.

Hench why your back coach and black knights should both dive for the nearest forest turn 1, for the -1 to hit. :-)

Joezombie
04-04-2008, 19:39
I never thought of trying a BC as its seems that my VC need every power die they can get. loosing one to the BC well never sat well with me. I usualy play vs opponents that dont even bother in magic phase vs my vamps any more, they just lode up on Dispel scrolls... Plus wating 2-3 turns till it does get buffed? But I'll try proxing one vs high elves when i get the chance.

Oberon
04-04-2008, 19:43
Just take a couple more skellies/whatever you take for core to weather the first turn. With BC you might not get *that* destructive first magic phase, but against suitable enemies BC should not need to be there in your second phase anymore. I got my coach ethereal in my opponents second magic phase (I went second), thanks to rod of power, it was great. Thankfully magic goes before shooting, so BC gets that extra turn of draining mana before cannons blast it to tiny bits.

Scythe
07-04-2008, 19:04
I send the vargulf up a flank w/ 5 naked Black Knights (since the vargulf is a vamp they get to march) I keep the Black Coach back with my three vamps to power up. People put all there fire into the vargulf as it is in there face 1st turn. The vargulf can normally handle it and the Coach just gets silly very very quickly!


I have been using the knights just like this as well. Together with the Vargulf, they make very effective flank attack and defence forces. Naked black knights, with their ethereal movement, are suprisingly effective for their cost. I field 6 for a mere 144 pts, and noone can really afford to ignore them.


The wording is that they may move though AND stop in difficult terrain, but cannot stop in impassable terrain.

Hench why your back coach and black knights should both dive for the nearest forest turn 1, for the -1 to hit. :-)

Bad idea. The coach doesn't start the game as ethereal. Remember the coach is drawn by Nightmares, not by Skeletal steeds.

Also, keep in mind the coach is usually a lot slower as knights, due its inability to march as a chariot.

Danger Rat
07-04-2008, 21:44
Dwarfs do generate power dice, 2 basic like every other army as this gives you the chance to dispel remain inplay spells.

Wolfmother
07-04-2008, 21:54
dual coaches is ftw!

Oberon
08-04-2008, 15:53
They will be somewhat weaker when theres more of them, as they both compete from the same power dice. You get to roll same amount of dice as you would with one coach, but you will get them powered up half as fast and could be left up with one super coach that continues to take all power dice you roll, instead of giving some to the other one...

_Lucian_
08-04-2008, 16:04
I would say vargulf. they can be very tasty, however honestly i would plump for 4 cairn wraiths, i run a unit of 6 and well...... they would eat and black coach of vargulf for dinner

Scythe
08-04-2008, 16:54
They will be somewhat weaker when theres more of them, as they both compete from the same power dice. You get to roll same amount of dice as you would with one coach, but you will get them powered up half as fast and could be left up with one super coach that continues to take all power dice you roll, instead of giving some to the other one...

Pretty much. By taking more than one black coach, you are shooting yourself in the foot, in a way of speaking.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
08-04-2008, 17:54
I had a Vargulf go toe to toe with one of those weaker High Elf Dragons for 2-3 rounds of combat before it died off.

Well worth the 175pts.

Crazy Harborc
09-04-2008, 01:56
Why choose? IMHO, one of each to use as needed (for best results). Keep opponents guessing....What will be different in that VC army this time.?

Scythe
11-04-2008, 16:16
Why choose? IMHO, one of each to use as needed (for best results). Keep opponents guessing....What will be different in that VC army this time.?

That's my solution, obviously. ;)

Unfortunately, not everyone has the money available to spend on both those (rather expensive) models. So it pays (literally) to plan ahead a bit, unlike I did...:p

WalachHarkon
11-04-2008, 20:34
That's the only thing that gets me, too few precious rare choices! Blood Knights I would never use in a game under like 4000 points. Even in 3000 they're too much of a target to be worth it IMO. But choosing between Cairn Wraiths, Varghulfs and Black Coaches is disturbingly difficult! Especially since I haven't played many games with the new book yet. I want to have my cake and eat it too dammit!

Scythe
12-04-2008, 14:11
That's the only thing that gets me, too few precious rare choices! Blood Knights I would never use in a game under like 4000 points. Even in 3000 they're too much of a target to be worth it IMO. But choosing between Cairn Wraiths, Varghulfs and Black Coaches is disturbingly difficult! Especially since I haven't played many games with the new book yet. I want to have my cake and eat it too dammit!

Then play 3000 pts games, obviously. :p

To be honest, taking more than 1 rare choice in a standard 2000-2500 pts match puts to much strain on my list to be honest. All rares are expensive and can be quite vulnerable to some specific units and abilities. Taking more than one hurst my mainstay units to much, so I usually restrain myself from doing that.

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2008, 14:27
I dont like the vargulf....mainly as its so much better than my hydra is despite costing way less.

I'de take the coach though.
It's not quite so quick across the board but it's prettymuch immune to most low strength attacks, plus despite being a chariot it'll more easily survive most artillery fire directed towards it than the vargy will, simply by virtue of being tougher and having a ward rather than regen.

Plus it'll eat up a handful of magic dice per game which is always a lot of fun, plus your opponent will most likely put too much emphasis on trying to kill it (so much as to fire lots of small arms fire at it a lot).

Plus the black coach looks awesome ^_^

AngryAngel
12-04-2008, 20:17
That's my solution, obviously. ;)

Unfortunately, not everyone has the money available to spend on both those (rather expensive) models. So it pays (literally) to plan ahead a bit, unlike I did...:p

They aren't really all that expensive as models go. The Varghulf is actually pretty cheap. Much cheaper then the blood knights thats for sure.

Though I agree it is hard to choose what to take in rare choices. They have alot of very sweet options. I love the feel of a Black Coach personally. The Cairn wraiths are just sweet too, a bunch of grim reapers running around. A giant bestial vampire. The blood knights just feel cool. Their models are pretty good looking imo. Impressive, and if they can get off on the unit you wish to hit, thats alot of pain coming their way.

Scythe
16-04-2008, 17:42
Plus it'll eat up a handful of magic dice per game which is always a lot of fun,

Most of those will be your own, most likely. :p

Oberon
16-04-2008, 17:59
Indeed. Had a game against TK today, and could not get fast enough away from by coach that was tied up. My 2lvl vamp gave all his dice to the coach twice in a row :D