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SuperArchMegalon
02-04-2008, 03:48
This question came up in a game yesterday. I charged Chaos Knights with a Warbanner on the flank with a unit of 3 Ironguts, no command. The Chaos player's champion was on the end of the unit (6x1 models).

G=General
K=Knight
C=Champion
I=Irongut

G
K
K
K
K
C
III
^
|
Charge!!

The BRB states that you may only attack models in BtB combat, so we decided that I had to attack the champion. However, also in the rules is that if attacks are allocated to a champion or character, excess wounds are discarded as the models are directing their attacks at the one model.

This made me think - it is only possible to do 1 wound without issuing a challenge (I had no champion to issue one with)! I rolled my dice and did 3 wounds (after armor saves) - normally enough to crush 3 models and to break the unit. Unfortunately because of the restriction only 1 wound counted (and we removed his champion), and with his Warbanner and size he actually WON combat by 1.

Frankly I was a bit appalled - flanking is the best (only?) way to break such a unit. But even flanking him I was doomed to LOSE combat, even if every die I rolled was a 6. He was subsequently able to turn his unit, bring his character into combat, break my unit, and run me down. Argh!

It was only the next day when I realized a possible solution and this thread was created to ask:

Are you allowed to attack with each model separately? Would it have been legal to say "ok, my first Irongut attacks - your champion is dead! Now my other two attack the unit."? I couldn't find anything saying otherwise.

Also, I'd like to ask, if I DID have a champion to issue a challenge, and he accepted, would the rest of my unit be able to attack the knights? If he refused? Thanks.

DeathlessDraich
02-04-2008, 10:21
1) You played it correctly

2) pg 34 - shows that all attacks of equal Initiative are struck *simultaneously*.
pg 32 - shows that a model can only strike enemy models it is in base contact *when it is the model's turn to strike*. Without a Tyrant or an accepted challenge, the Ogre unit strikes simultaneously.

3) If you did issue a challenge then the other models could be able to fight - as models in a challenge are moved and are replaced by RnF models (pg77) - N.B. the FAQ has allowed flexibility on this rule.

Chicago Slim
02-04-2008, 10:59
I disagree, Draich, only because there'd be no reason to move any models, if the Ironguts had had a champion: that champion was already in combat, no other model was capable of accepting the challenge, so the entire combat would be Irongut Champion versus Chaos Knight Champion. (By that point, though, you're not likely to get much Overkill, having only 4 attacks to throw...)

As for the fairness of this particular limitation on the value of flanking, the only think that I can say is that it's not a situation that comes up that often, and comes up much, much less often if you put a champion in your unit...


A little analysis:
chaos has numbers, and a banner, which is the war banner (3 points). You have a kill and a flank (2 points), and could have had a third point if you had brought a standard. Lose by one, maybe tie; even if you had been fighting rank-and-file, your three kills instead of one would have tipped it one point the other way, he's saving on a 9. The next round of combat will be fought between the general (who will move within the unit during his own movement phase, taking the position the champion previously held) and the entire unit of Ironguts.

So, the real problem is that your minimum-size group of core infantry with no command isn't really equipped to deal with his Lord... *shrug*.

DeathlessDraich
02-04-2008, 11:48
I disagree, Draich, only because there'd be no reason to move any models,

1) I did use the word 'could' ...

2) In the case above, whether the 2 models in the challenge have to be moved is subject to interpretation.
If the 2 protagonists are in corner to corner contact (or not opposite each other), they *could* still be moved - depending on your interpretation of "opposite each other" on pg 77.

3) The FAQ ( not lucid and helpful as it should be) on moving challengers has to be taken into account as well

Commissar Vaughn
02-04-2008, 13:15
Hang on, surely the characters should have been in the centre of the unit of knights? Not on its flanks....In which case you could have killed more.

Masque
02-04-2008, 13:26
Hang on, surely the characters should have been in the centre of the unit of knights? Not on its flanks....In which case you could have killed more.

There is no rule requiring them to be in the center. And since the situation turned out so well for the Chaos player it seems the champion and character were exactly where they should have been.

EvC
02-04-2008, 13:28
No, because that is not a rule, Commissar.

Incidentally, when someone does this, and wins combat, ensure you make them turn correctly. This will mean that ranks becomes the files- so that after turning, only one of the cavalry can be in base contact with your models. This will leave you with two Ironguts fighting the Chaos character, with a good chance of doing some damage to him, whilst he gets no CR bonus for his standard or war banner.

Kamizanate
02-04-2008, 17:01
No, because that is not a rule, Commissar.

Incidentally, when someone does this, and wins combat, ensure you make them turn correctly. This will mean that ranks becomes the files- so that after turning, only one of the cavalry can be in base contact with your models. This will leave you with two Ironguts fighting the Chaos character, with a good chance of doing some damage to him, whilst he gets no CR bonus for his standard or war banner.

In the BRB (pg. 46) it says that the flanked unit that wins combat can elect to turn to face the unit on its flank, and only in order to bring more models into base to base contact. It doesn't say that the unit has to turn.

I'm not sure that I'm following how you can come to the Ironguts facing the Chaos Character alone with no CR bonuses...

SuperArchMegalon
02-04-2008, 17:07
A little analysis:
chaos has numbers, and a banner, which is the war banner (3 points). You have a kill and a flank (2 points), and could have had a third point if you had brought a standard. Lose by one, maybe tie; even if you had been fighting rank-and-file, your three kills instead of one would have tipped it one point the other way, he's saving on a 9. The next round of combat will be fought between the general (who will move within the unit during his own movement phase, taking the position the champion previously held) and the entire unit of Ironguts.

If I had gotten the three kills I deserved I would have auto-broken the unit. Big difference, eh?



So, the real problem is that your minimum-size group of core infantry with no command isn't really equipped to deal with his Lord... *shrug*.

Fine, that is acceptable, but let's say I had a unit of three or four Maneaters, Dragon Ogres, Minotaurs, Treekin, Ushtabi, Rat Ogres, any monsterous creature, etc. hitting the same flank. I still would have lost! As I said, I could roll a hundred wounds but because of this limitation it doesn't make any difference. Putting a character on one end of the unit is good protection for that flank, because they're harder to wound. Putting your champion on the other end of the unit is better, because it is only possible to get 1 CR from wounding!

Charging on the front would avoid the whole situation, but a unit like Ironguts would probably struggle to survive a barrage of attacks from a full unit of knights. Because of the champion on the edge of the unit, they gain a ton of survivability. It's a loophole.



As for the fairness of this particular limitation on the value of flanking, the only think that I can say is that it's not a situation that comes up that often, and comes up much, much less often if you put a champion in your unit...
I bet we're going to see this coming up more and more. Taking any of the units I mentioned before, answer me how to destroy a unit of Blood Knights with a Warbanner. Flank them and you have lost. Charge them on the front and they will do more damage than you, and you will lose. All cavalry can claim this flank protection, for that matter. The issue is that being flanked is supposed to be cavalry's weakness, but with a champion on the edge the wounds they take are severely limited - even if I have a champion (not a viable choice in the OK) my unit's attacks are all wasted. This should be fixed.

SuperArchMegalon
02-04-2008, 17:09
I'm not sure that I'm following how you can come to the Ironguts facing the Chaos Character alone with no CR bonuses...

He was saying you have to turn each individual model, which isn't correct. That would mean that his warbanner would go to a back "rank", which would mean it wouldn't count for anything. If that was the case, the player could just stay flanked, but keep his +2 CR and move his general into combat. Works out better, and he has a usable formation after combat :eyebrows:

Atrahasis
02-04-2008, 17:19
EvC is correct that the turn would result in losing the standard bonusses.

Not turning was the smart thing to do in this situation.

SuperArchMegalon
02-04-2008, 17:37
I took the passage in the BRB to mean that if the flanked unit wins combat they can turn from this:

G
K
K
K
K
III

to this:

GKKKK
III

isn't that what it means? to "bring more models into contact"?

Atrahasis
02-04-2008, 17:46
No. That isn't a turn.

Kamizanate
02-04-2008, 18:09
EDIT: EvC and Atrahasis are correct, so flanking cavalry is still valuable, as the unit cannot simply bring all of their models in to BTB. Turns are described on pg 13 of the BRB.

Caboose123
02-04-2008, 18:13
In the BRB (pg. 46) it says that the flanked unit that wins combat can elect to turn to face the unit on its flank, and only in order to bring more models into base to base contact.


Simple question, how could a turn (as you guys explained) bring more guys into combat?

Surely the same guys would be in combat - just looking a different direction...

Kamizanate
02-04-2008, 18:15
Simple question, how could a turn (as you guys explained) bring more guys into combat?

Surely the same guys would be in combat - just looking a different direction...

I had to go back and read the rules for turning. I had it confused with wheeling, which is what Superarchmegalon and myself have always done in similar situations.

SuperArchMegalon
02-04-2008, 18:50
Caboose's question still remains valid - I think that they probably intended the entire unit turns, not using the official term "turn", because they added the clause "in order to bring more models into BtB contact". I can't think of any situation where "turning" as you two have described it brings more models into contact. I suppose if you have flanked a chariot, then the horses would then be able to attack O_o but those don't count as separate models.

theunwantedbeing
02-04-2008, 18:59
Page 46, units winning a combat engaged to their flank only may execute a turn manoeuvre as shown on page 13.

Page 13 shows us that a turn is simply the models turning on the spot to face the enemy, the champion/musician/standard bearer are all moved to the front, if there isnt sufficient space(like a line of knights) then they are arranged in the rear ranks(so wont apply).

So a turn manages to do nothing bar moving the standard bearer and musician out of the front rank in this instance, the unit thehn has to win another round of combat to be able to expand it's frontage far enough to allow those memebers of the unit to get into a position where they can be used.

Moral of this story....dont charge units of knights with warbanners and such in the flank when there is a unit champion or character in the flank of the unit, unless of course you yourself have such a banner and lots of ranks and such, in which case...go ahead!

Atrahasis
02-04-2008, 18:59
because they added the clause "in order to bring more models into BtB contact".That clause hasn't been part of the official rules for more than a year. Check the errata.