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Mezziah
02-04-2008, 19:06
I've been thinking about comparing skeletons and ghouls in the new VC book and come to the conclusion that skeletons (when equiped with standard hand weapon & shield) are more resiliant than ghouls in close combat (though they have T4) because of their 4+ armoursave. Ghouls on the other hand has alot more offensive to dish out than skeletons...

My question: Why the hell would anyone want to equip skeletons with spears for extra points?
The only thing the spears do is making the skeleton regiment dish out more attacks (but lowers their armoursave to 5+). Why would you want to get "bad" offensive skeletons when you get get "better" offensive ghouls for less points? To me is seems like a mystery why anyone would want to their skeletons have spears, anyone who disagree?

Spirit
02-04-2008, 19:35
Never used the search button i see?

Well anyway, it really comes down to personal choice. One thing that could be said is you can have skeletons doing different roles, i.e one unit with HW & Shield and one unit with spears, giving you variety, and this will only require one skill to raise them ALL on a 3+ and to raise them ALL above their starting number.

I currently use HW & shield and one unit of ghouls in 1500 points, but it annoys me that i can only ever get the skeleton unit raised easily.

Also, spears + vanhells = pretty dammed good. Also, remember that a spear unit needs 9 models and a champion ALL to die before you get to attack, ghouls lose all of their attacks after 5 die (both based on 5x? formation) so with spears you are more likely to get some attacks back.

Looking at ghouls though, what really appeals to me is the WS3, people often forget this, as it means the majority of core hits them on a 4+ rather than a 3+ AND they have t4.

All in all, if your going for bigger games you don't want to waste lots of vampire points to raise all of your units separately, and you want to be able to do it well, seeing as the invocation of nehek is the backbone (Ha. Bone.) of the entire vampire army.

Edit: Another one i thought of. Staff of damnation, each model able to attck gets ONE attack.
A unit of 5 wide ghouls gets 5 attacks, a unit of 5 wide skeletons gets 10!

Latro
02-04-2008, 20:42
I've been thinking about comparing skeletons and ghouls in the new VC book and come to the conclusion that skeletons (when equiped with standard hand weapon & shield) are more resiliant than ghouls in close combat (though they have T4) because of their 4+ armoursave. Ghouls on the other hand has alot more offensive to dish out than skeletons...

My question: Why the hell would anyone want to equip skeletons with spears for extra points?
The only thing the spears do is making the skeleton regiment dish out more attacks (but lowers their armoursave to 5+). Why would you want to get "bad" offensive skeletons when you get get "better" offensive ghouls for less points? To me is seems like a mystery why anyone would want to their skeletons have spears, anyone who disagree?

Do the math on a 7-wide Skeleton unit with spears versus different opponents with and without the different boosts they can get (Helm of Commandment, Strike First, re-rolls) and you'll see why they can be very effective.


:cool:

dzungia
02-04-2008, 22:18
The only thing the spears do is making the skeleton regiment dish out more attacks (but lowers their armoursave to 5+)

Their save is reduced to 6+, not 5+. No shields with spears. Am I wrong?

Snipafist
03-04-2008, 00:51
Their save is reduced to 6+, not 5+. No shields with spears. Am I wrong?

How can you play Warhammer for any length of time and not realize that you can use shields with spears?

DarkStarr
03-04-2008, 01:49
I gues skelitons with spears wins.

Now you only get the double rank charge bonus if you recieve the charge in the first round of combat so it pretty much evens them out, since van hels will alow them to charge, but is it worth the xtra points for a chance of taking a charge?
You can get a unit of skelitons with spears pretty dang cheap with invocation of nehek. 10 skelitons with spears for 10 more points, and then raise the rest.

dzungia
03-04-2008, 07:45
How can you play Warhammer for any length of time and not realize that you can use shields with spears?

Hey, that was rude! :) I used to think spears as being some sort of Great Weapon. Well, whatever, if that is the case, skeletons with spears may have some impact on my army :)

Lucky24/7
03-04-2008, 09:43
Ahh but when on earth is a skeleton ever gonna kill summit with them attacks back ? I would still go HW and Sheild every time.... I belive its time for some math hammer

O.k Lets assume skeletons vs empire swordsmen + Swormasters. No helm of command or anything just that the skele's are in a 5x5 formation against there oppents who are numbering 25, 14 and 14 respectively.

First HW Skele's

assuming you charge the empire....

3/6 attacks hit 1.5 wouds with a 1/2 save from the empire = 0.75 kills for the skele
4/6 attacks hit from the empire, 2/4 hits then would with 1/2 beign saved leaving a = 1kill

Assuming no other factors the skele's should lose ... But that is becasue the standard +5 (3 ranks standard outnumber) is taken due to the empire.

Now spears against the empire should in theory genrate 1.5 kills (assuming no1 gets killed firs, and its when all spears can attack) however in the empire return should kill 1.33 skeles possibly being a win for the skeles and out number by fear (though very marginal chance of 0.17 of a kill between it)

So spears here generated 0.75 of a kill but subesquently gave away 0.33 so that makes a net advantage of 0.42 kills.... so a 60% (ish) increase in effecancy for 12.5% increase in cost

so spears vs Lightly armoued troops = good

O.k now lets take the 14 swordmaster in a 7x2 formation.... They oviously strike first and have full command as do You So static combat res before combat is +5 to the undead and +2 for the elves.

The from rank sould if maximised generate 15 attacks at ws 6 so hitting on 3's should on average giev 10 hits and woulding on 2's against both so should kive you 8.33 woulds at -2 to armour save. SO for spears this is 6.25 kills and accoutnign in the HW+S sheilds save of 6+ means they lose 6.94 of their number

the attacks are back hitting on 5's and woulding on 4's with a 5up save 1/9 chacne of killing the elf per attack

SO HW get 0.22 kills
And Spears 0.33 Kills

Makin total Combat resouloution scores of 5.22 and 5.33 respectivly for the skele's
While the Swordmasters get a score of 8.94 and 10.33

Either way swords masters win but HW and sheild cumbel by 3 and the Spears lose 5

Here it would be better TO use HW and Shield

SO to Conclude HW And sheild better against anything decent
Spears are better aginast the weaker core toops

Rant Over

LuCky

(apologises for spelling)

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2008, 10:21
If I knew I was going to lose anyway I'd try to bring a few of them down with me*. Why not hope they fluff their attacks and use the spears to get a kill or two? I don't rate the 6+ save you'll be left with after they club you with great weapons as being worth much. Also if you van hels the unit you can strike before them thanks to their GWs, makes the spear unit a lot better.



I know its just an exercise in numbers but this is an odd example. Why send your skeletons up against swordmasters at all why not feed them 50 vp zombie units, march block them with dire wolves or flank them with heavy cavalry etc. Sword masters are an example of a unit you never want to fight fairly even with (practicaly) unbreakable undead troops.


*Obvious exception being that you want to flank charge them next turn.

Latro
03-04-2008, 10:40
Ahh but when on earth is a skeleton ever gonna kill summit with them attacks back ? I would still go HW and Sheild every time.... I belive its time for some math hammer

[insert math]

SO to Conclude HW And sheild better against anything decent
Spears are better aginast the weaker core toops

Rant Over


Well, congratulations for missing one of the most fundamental changes in the latest edition of the Vampire Counts ... ;)

- no need to restrict Skeleton Spearmen to 5-wide when their mission is to kill
- the Helm of Commandment is a fact of (un)life that is almost impossible to stop
- getting Strike First with bound spells, chosing spells and re-casting spells is a serious factor

... by not taking a look at what the effects of these will be, you're giving your army a serious handicap (or are still in denial if you're the opponent).


Skeleton Spearmen v. Empire Swordsmen (5-wide)

No boost:

Swordsmen attack first: 6 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds = 1.32 kills after saves
Spearmen attack back: 14 attacks, 7 hits, 3.5 wounds = 1.75 kills after saves

WS boost (Helm):

Swordsmen attack first: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 1.5 wounds = 0.99 kills after saves
Spearmen attack back: 14 attacks, 9.24 hits, 4.62 wounds = 2.31 kills after saves

WS boost + Strike First (magic):

Spearmen attack first: 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds = 2.5 kills after saves
Swordsmen attack back: 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 0.75 wounds = 0.5 kills after saves


Skeleton Spearmen v. Swordmasters (7-wide)

No boost:

Swordmasters attack first: 15 attacks, 10 hits, 8.3 wounds and kills
Spearmen attack back: 7 attacks, 2.33 hits, 1.17 wounds = 0.77 kills

WS boost (Helm):

Swordmasters attack first: 15 attacks, 7.5 hits, 6.23 wounds and kills
Spearmen attack back: 9 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds = 2 kills

WS boost + Strike First (magic):

Spearmen attack first: 15 attacks, 10 hits, 5 wounds = 3.3 kills
Swordmasters attack back: 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.74 wounds and kills

(with re-rolls this becomes even better)

That's why Skeleton Spearmen are an effective choice now, against any opponent ... and yes, it's a big change compared to previous edition.

Note: I didn't say they are the best or only choice ... just that they're effective now with the new toys we got.)

Gazak Blacktoof
03-04-2008, 11:11
I wish my tomb kings had some of this awesomeness, but they don't.:cries:

Practically drawing with swordmasters + 1 rank and outnumbering bonus for CR = autobreak.

I take back what I said about feeding them units and distracting them just kill them skeleton spearmen.

Conotor
03-04-2008, 12:24
Ghools. They are about as good on defence, and way better on offence.

Mezziah
04-04-2008, 18:18
Thanks for all your answers but I think many of you got all out of hand...

The comparison I thought about was between skeletons equipped with spears and ghouls. I don't see why anyone would wan't to take spear-skeletons instead of ghouls.

Helm of commandment works on any undead unit, so ghouls get pretty nasty too.

The only thing I've seen by now was "Spirit's" point on that 2 ranks of skeletons are more difficult to destroy than one rank of ghouls (which generates the same amount of attacks) and that the vanhels dance works better on two spear-ranks of skeletons than 1 rank of ghouls.

Even worse, skeletons with spears cost 1p more than ghouls :S

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2008, 18:34
If you can't see much of a difference between the two units its probably because there isn't a huge difference.

Ghouls are quicker and better against Ws 2, 3, 5 & 6 troops but slightly worse against troops that don't do much armour save modifier. Ghouls (and sword armed skeletons) also suffer more if the enemy has just a few good attacks (white lions or executioners) that might take out their front rank, skeletons with spears at least get some attacks back.

The difference between the ghouls and differently equipped skeletons is probably even less significant than the difference between empire state troops.

Take what you like the look of because there seems to be pretty good internal balance within the list. You wont handicap yourself whichever option you choose.

Latro
04-04-2008, 18:37
The comparison I thought about was between skeletons equipped with spears and ghouls. I don't see why anyone would wan't to take spear-skeletons instead of ghouls.


Ghouls are slightly better than Skeleton Spearmen when compared point for point, Skeleton Spearmen are better when compared unit for unit.

But as an answer to your original question: if you're looking for cheap units for the single purpose of blocking enemy units ... regular Skeleton Warriors are what you're looking for. If you want them to be more flexible and take full advantage of new support items and magic ... Skeleton Spearmen are better.


:cool:

Joezombie
04-04-2008, 19:55
From what i see theres one item that only the Skellies can use, thats the tomb blade. Everyting else the ghouls can use as well, so they get support as well. But From what I've experience ghouls can handle combat by themselves. Skelletons, not matter how many of them, will probably always loose to other same points units. I'de use ghouls exclusively if i didnt hate their fluff or models.

Latro
04-04-2008, 20:03
From what i see theres one item that only the Skellies can use, thats the tomb blade. Everyting else the ghouls can use as well, so they get support as well.

No, not quite ...

Ghouls can't have a full command group and no magic banner ... that +2 static CR (Warbanner or Banner of the Endless Nightmare) makes the Skeletons better when comparing them as units. Ghouls are better for equal points though.


:cool: