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bluekitsune13
03-04-2008, 02:18
Okay, today I had a match with my Orcs and Goblin army versus some Ogres. Here's the scenario, and I'd like to know some more opinions on our ruling. Here's a very rough outline of what the field looked like:

..............G G G G G


...iiiii..O
......iiiii..O
.........iiiii..........iiiiiiiiiiiiiii

So the G's are my opponent's Irongut Ogres, and the i's are my two units of Night Goblins. Here is my problem. The Ogres charge the goblin unit on the left. When they got within 8" I deploy my Fanatics. I had 1 Fanatic in each unit. So, when I released them I shot them so they were both 1" in front of the goblin unit on the left that was being charged, represented as the O's. My idea behind that was to make it so the charging Ogres would end their movement on the Fanatics, so they take an extra 1d6 as the Fanatics die. With me so far?

This is how we worked out the damage. The Ogres were charging at an angle, so before they were to engage my Goblins in close combat, they technically had to move through the first Fantatic on the left. So, I rolled the 1d6 for the initial hits, and the Ogres didn't panic. Then, as they came closer and wheeled they hit the second Fanatic, and I rolled another 1d6. So now that both units were engaged, I rolled 2d6 for the additional death throes for the Fanatics. We then took the panic test instead of the break test, and they passed. So here are some or my questions.

1) Were we right in doing the order of resolving hits for the fanatics? As in first one, panic test. Second one, panic test, then both of them for their death throes, panic test.

2) For the final 2 death throes from the fanatics, would they be resolved against the Ogres themselves? There is a rule for when Fanatics are tossed into a group with multiple units fighting, and it's randomized like shooting. However, it also says in the book that the 'unit' that lands on the Fanatic takes the death throes, whether nor not they were engaged in combat.

3) To expand on the last question, you never take break tests from Fanatic hits, since you never actually engage them in close combat. That means that the wounds suffered by Fanatics don't count towards combat resolution, right?

StormCrow
03-04-2008, 03:55
1) Were we right in doing the order of resolving hits for the fanatics? As in first one, panic test. Second one, panic test, then both of them for their death throes, panic test.


You resolved the hits in the correct order, however you only take a panic check once a unit loses 25% of it's unit strength in the magic or shooting phase. For example if the ogre unit was made up of 4 bulls you would only take a panic check once one ogre had been killed. if the first fanatic only caused 2 wounds on the unit then no panic check would be necessary. Also, a unit only has to take one panic check per phase; in the example when one ogre dies. After that it doesn't have to take any more panic tests for that phase since fanatic hits are treated as shooting attacks.



2) For the final 2 death throes from the fanatics, would they be resolved against the Ogres themselves? There is a rule for when Fanatics are tossed into a group with multiple units fighting, and it's randomized like shooting. However, it also says in the book that the 'unit' that lands on the Fanatic takes the death throes, whether nor not they were engaged in combat.


The hits would be resolved on the ogres only, as at no point did the fanatics pass through the orc and goblin units so there's no need to randomise hits onto them. And as the ogres ended their movement on the fanatics they would indeed take the full 2D6 hits. I love doing this, took down a bret lord on gryphon once.



3) To expand on the last question, you never take break tests from Fanatic hits, since you never actually engage them in close combat. That means that the wounds suffered by Fanatics don't count towards combat resolution, right?

Nope, since they are classed as a shooting attack they don't count towards resolution, but can panic a unit before they make it into combat which is even better.

This is my take on the questions, and it's the way i've always played my fanatics. Hope it's useful/right

T10
03-04-2008, 06:00
1) Were we right in doing the order of resolving hits for the fanatics? As in first one, panic test. Second one, panic test, then both of them for their death throes, panic test.

2) For the final 2 death throes from the fanatics, would they be resolved against the Ogres themselves? There is a rule for when Fanatics are tossed into a group with multiple units fighting, and it's randomized like shooting. However, it also says in the book that the 'unit' that lands on the Fanatic takes the death throes, whether nor not they were engaged in combat.

3) To expand on the last question, you never take break tests from Fanatic hits, since you never actually engage them in close combat. That means that the wounds suffered by Fanatics don't count towards combat resolution, right?

1. As mentioned, you resolved the casualties correctly. And yes, you only take one Panic in any case.

However, notice that you do not take panic tests when engaged in close combat. Wether you charging unit is in close combat once the units have made contact (i.e. before the alignment wheel) or once the unit has come to a full stop may be up for debate.

I would assume the latter.

2. The damage caused by the death throes are distributed as shooting, but no rules exist to the effect that such damage may be distributed accross different units, even in close combat.

3. That is correct. This damage is resolved outside the normal combat procedure, much in the same way as would a damage spell cast into close combat.

-T10

Milgram
03-04-2008, 06:12
So now that both units were engaged, I rolled 2d6 for the additional death throes for the Fanatics. We then took the panic test instead of the break test, and they passed. So here are some or my questions.

this is one of the situations where you have to rule out with your opponent, whether unit stops on top of the fanatics or not. we play it as the opponent (not the orc player) decides. if he says 'no, I don't want additional hits', the fanatics are placed behind the enemy unit. (this is our way we lay out the wording in the fanatic rules)

then: as soon as the ogres touch the goblin unit, they count as in combat and therefore will not panic. so if a fanatic is touched while forming a battle line, he may cause no panic test.

Festus
03-04-2008, 07:37
Hi

No, the Goblin player may not decide anything with regards to fanatics but the direction of the initial burst out of the unit. The other player has no influence whatsoever on the fanatics.

If the Ogres stop their move on the fanatics' position, the little black 'Uns will deal another 1D6 hits each and then die. Ther is no other way.

If the Ogres stop their move in base contact with an enemy, they are in combat and hence will not take any panic tests anymore - even if the Fanatics kill 4 Ogres (the max.), as they do not test for Psy while in combat.

Festus

warlord hack'a
03-04-2008, 07:57
Milgram, how can the wording in the fanatic rule not be clear? The ogres charge, they have to finish their charge, so they end on top of the fanatics. You are confusing the rule of what happens when fanatics move and then end up inside a unit with the rules on what happens when the enemy moves on top of a fanatic.

In the former case the fanatics are bounced through the unit and placed 1" out on the other side, in the latter case the enemy movement decides what happens: if they have enough move to clear the fanatic, then they get 1d6 hits + fanatic remains alive, if they end their move on top of the fanatic they get 2d6 hits+fanatic is removed.

One thing to note: in the example above the ironguts first hit one fanatic, if this fanatic would kill one irongut (and they would pass their panic test) then the irongut player could decide to remove the right most irongut (as seen from the O&G player), this might mean that the second fanatic ends up next to the irongut unit instead of also on top of it..

Milgram
03-04-2008, 08:17
Milgram, how can the wording in the fanatic rule not be clear?

wasn't there a 'the unit may decide to stop the movement on top of the fanatic'? I was pretty sure. as you must finish the charge after a fanatic is released, there is no 'deciding' included - this would mean that you in fact could deside whether the fanatic is below you or not.

of course, if I'm wrong and the word 'decide' is not in the rule, then forget what I wrote. :)

woytek
03-04-2008, 08:42
wasn't there a 'the unit may decide to stop the movement on top of the fanatic'? I was pretty sure. as you must finish the charge after a fanatic is released, there is no 'deciding' included - this would mean that you in fact could deside whether the fanatic is below you or not.

of course, if I'm wrong and the word 'decide' is not in the rule, then forget what I wrote. :)

Indeed you can decide to end the move of one of your units on top of the fanatic to kill it (and take some casualties).

However since the ogres are charging they will HAVE to end their move on top of the fanatics if they are placed just right. The fanatic will never be moved unless in the O&G players movement phase (or magic phase due to some spell).

Milgram
03-04-2008, 09:42
yes but then the ogre player does not 'decide' to stop on top of the fanatic and therefore the fanatic would not deal the second d6 hits and would not be destroied. therefore we use a house rule for this. (we use this also for goblins that run onto a fanatic due to animosity etc.)


The fanatic will never be moved unless in the O&G players movement phase (or magic phase due to some spell).

is the argument of fanatics not being ItP solved by an FAQ? ;)

warlord hack'a
03-04-2008, 10:22
the part about choosing to end on top of a fanatic is when the unit has a choice. In this case the unit has no choice as they are charging, so they have to complete their move and therefore they have to end up on top of the fanatics.
The deciding part is about deciding where you stop, not about deciding if the fanatic is beneath you or not. As the chargers have nothing to decide they have to end on top of the fanatics.

warlord hack'a
03-04-2008, 10:24
is the argument of fanatics not being ItP solved by an FAQ? ;)

no, by the errata: first item of the errata:

Page 25. Fanatics, add to the special rules: "Immune to Psychology"

Arguleon-veq
03-04-2008, 13:44
Seems like your question has been answered, very lucky to release your fanatics and have them both end up right where you wanted them though. I'm assuming you rolled the 2d6 for movement?.

T10
03-04-2008, 14:10
That is a statement or a question?.

-T10

Urgat
04-04-2008, 08:38
Seems like your question has been answered, very lucky to release your fanatics and have them both end up right where you wanted them though. I'm assuming you rolled the 2d6 for movement?.

That's not very hard you know. When you have large units, a couple inches aways from each other, it's no big deal to send the fanatics paralel to the other unit. Unless, for once, you do rool that double 6 on your firsty turn, most likely your happy loomies will end up in front of the other unit. Either it's on the right or the middle of the left bears little importance, it is too late for the charging unit to wheel and maybe try to avoid them, so they will take them anyway. It works well, I've already done that a few times, but if I do, it's really because I have nothing better to do with said fanatics, because it seems kind of a waste to me ( I don't use my fanatics to destroy things, I use them to prevent annoying charges, among other things).

YTY
04-04-2008, 12:36
yes but then the ogre player does not 'decide' to stop on top of the fanatic and therefore the fanatic would not deal the second d6 hits and would not be destroied. therefore we use a house rule for this. (we use this also for goblins that run onto a fanatic due to animosity etc.)

The rule says: "If any unit finishes its move on the fanatic..." so its nothing about deciding ;).