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Luisjoey
03-04-2008, 06:48
I´m pretty new to WH40k, and the history is too long!

In my game comunity (some of them play since 2nd edition) they always refer to space marines as enuch of the emperor, enuch means with no male organ, but how true is this?

and a question arrises, a space marine can have his own breed of childrens? how geneseed affect this?

Iuris
03-04-2008, 07:02
No.

Removal of "family jewels" and similar is not mentioned in any material detailing how a Space marine is made. The opposite is implied, actually - male hormones are one of the reasons a candidate must be a male.

What the are is dedicated warrior monks, which is not the same. They redirect their sexual drives into warfare and religious fervor.

Hicks
03-04-2008, 07:06
The process of making a space marine involves adding organs, not cutting their nuts off!!! So to answer your question, marines aren't enuchs. However, with all the psycho-conditioning and brain surgery they get, they don't really crave sex like normal men. What really interrests them is the thrill of battle and killing. That alone explains why you don't see the offsprings of space marines runing around.

I don't know if they could technicaly have kids either, their transformation might make them sterile. If not, then I guess it would be possible.

EDIT: I'm typing too slow.

Luisjoey
03-04-2008, 07:15
Good answers friends, and thanks for your shared wisdom

My group Laught aloud about space marines as space enuch, and i want an argument to counter that; maybe some fiction about novels or the very same adeptus astartes.

The other day they (many eldars eldars) laught about that space marines are enuch and such and i told! thats ridiculous; space marines got an implant of the gene seed THAT INCREASE THEIR WHOLE BODY 20% IN SIZE! the whole body!

maybe is a ridiculous discussion but still interesting for the good fiction.

Something i heard too is that space marines are good drunks because they have 3 livers! that is true?

Iuris
03-04-2008, 07:20
Beware: the topic had been debated on this very forum many many MANY times already.

Also note: just about everything is enhanced with a Space marine. This includes resistance to toxins (and intoxication). For more details, see the Creation of a space marine articla on GW's own site.

Hicks
03-04-2008, 07:22
Well you'd think that with their super human physique they couldn't get drunk, but a couple BL novels seem to tell otherwise. Marines have been known to enjoy beer and wine, but I guess they must drink a lot before they even begin to feel drunk.

EDIT: Dang, I'm typing too slow again!

Luisjoey
03-04-2008, 07:34
Beware: the topic had been debated on this very forum many many MANY times already.


I mean no offense; i was just asking about this curiosity.

Iuris
03-04-2008, 07:34
The marines may also simply enjoy alcohol without needing to get intoxicated. I myself have never been really drunk, yet seriously enjoy the occasional Pina colada :)

EDIT: oops, now I'm typing too slow :) - had to rework.

battle captain corpus
03-04-2008, 09:00
Space Wolves have a drinking contest where they try to drink faster than their body can process the alcohol levels, which is incredibly fast I imagine...
And 20% bigger? Please! Think more 35-40%..at least in fluff terms. I read somehwhere that muscle mass is near 400% increased! Phew!
Back on topic though, they still have their reproductive organs its just they are chemically neutered if you like. They are rendered redundant as the geneseed is all thats needed to reproduce. There are many excellent "Creation of a SM" articles out there, both here on Warseer and also on other sites, such as the B&C and GW's own. :)

Hellebore
03-04-2008, 09:09
If you are constructing a weapon do you put a big nob on it that says "hit here to disable me"?

So why would you for a marine?

Hellebore

Ikkaan
03-04-2008, 09:16
Space Marines are not eunuchs, surgery adds more organs but nothing essential is removed. Some sources hint that the chemicals and hormonal treatment halt the production of sperm, but that may not be permanent.

Becoming a space marine substracts the person from humanity. A space marine is not human anymore, his body and mind is changed and transformed. Physically a space marine may be able to father children, but it would be unbecoming to his position as an astartes and harmful to his morale and ethical standards. By choosing to become a space marine he abandons his own ego in favor of servitude to the emperor...like a monk, but it involves a lot more determination and will to achieve this state. A child would be the shameful expression of goals only important to a mind that fosters ego (i.e. "I am a great warrior, the next generation needs to be born with my genes."). But essentially such thoughts are useless, the marine should not think of himself as important, only of the emperor and his chapter (which is bolstered by psycho surgery and indoctrination).

ctsteel
03-04-2008, 10:31
I was of the impression that the massive amounts of testosterone that are produced when creating a marine, might have the same effect as steroid abuse can in body-builders, which is to in fact impair/shrink the male genitalia due to the severe hormone imbalance?

So while not necessarily neutered etc, they would at least be...underdeveloped in that area.

A quick scan of some google results reinforces that impression, also that too much testosterone can lead to a stop in the production of sex hormones in general, can increase male pattern baldness, lead to mood swings etc.

Koryphaus
03-04-2008, 10:39
If you are constructing a weapon do you put a big nob on it that says "hit here to disable me"?

So why would you for a marine?

Hellebore

Do you mean that as in, smash a marine in the groin and he'l go down like any other man?

Coz I was thinking that anything that defeats the armour of a marine isnt likely to do much good for his body... But they also ave painkillers that automatically inject and other drugs like that...

Tommygun
03-04-2008, 10:53
I believe they castrate male horses to make them less aggressive and more manageable. You want marines to be aggressive. I think castration also causes less production of some male hormones?

Archangel_Ruined
03-04-2008, 12:43
I'm not sure what it is about fandom and wang curiosity, but there is definitely a correlation between the two. I've never read that they're neutered, but then GW probably wont go into that for reasons of taste and decency, something I agree with wholeheartedly.

Hicks
03-04-2008, 14:17
I've never read that they're neutered, but then GW probably wont go into that for reasons of taste and decency, something I agree with wholeheartedly.

I'm sure they would never say that just for the fact that all those marine players would surely abandon the game. I mean, when you neuter a "codex" players whine, but if you neuter their "army" those players will surely stop wanting to play with 8' tall warriors that talk like their little sister.

Luisjoey
03-04-2008, 15:07
Maybe they are just Chemical sterile, but they still have their organs and have the hormones to keep working and being agresive.

Gussy
03-04-2008, 17:16
Something i heard too is that space marines are good drunks because they have 3 livers! that is true?

Haegr likes to get drunk on the novel Wolfblade. However it takes him kegs and kegs of stuff. He also eats two whole lambs plus other stuff by himself.

Lord Malice
03-04-2008, 17:43
I'm not sure what it is about fandom and wang curiosity, but there is definitely a correlation between the two. I've never read that they're neutered, but then GW probably wont go into that for reasons of taste and decency, something I agree with wholeheartedly.
Indeed.

No-where ever in any background is it stated or even implied that marines have their bits removed. Anyone who might suggest otherwise is an idiot and a *****.

Ikkaan puts the point excellently. Ordinary human beings are sexually motivated by a desire to re-produce, the same as all other living creatures. However this is an inherent weakness as you can be seduced and for a soldier this is a bad thing. Marines are psycho-indoctrinated so that they feel no sexual attraction (in renegade marines this process can end or is disrupted by Chaotic influence and so these base desires return) and so therefore cannot be seduced or bought with promises of sexual relations. They are wholly dedicated to the eradication of the Emperor's enemies and whatever human emotions or desires that might impair that dedication are rubbed out of their psyche.

Skirnak
03-04-2008, 17:54
In my game comunity (some of them play since 2nd edition) they always refer to space marines as enuch of the emperor, enuch means with no male organ, but how true is this?

Did they explicitly state they had no male organ, or just that they were eunuchs?

Space marines have been chemically sterilised (I said castrated before, that wasn't what I meant) and in that sense I would happily term them eunuchs.

dark blade
03-04-2008, 18:02
i personally would not say that space marines are eunics, and i have plenty of proofe to back this up. just look at the emporrs childerd, when GW talks about an orgy of destruction you know what they really mean??:angel: any way, if you think about it then sex drive can be pretty powerfull, if that is redirected then you get a very aggresive person, i personally hold that this is what happens.

Hicks
03-04-2008, 18:04
No they aren't castrated, everything still works down there. They MIGHT shoot blanks, but they still get their dose of testosterone.

Moostikal The Confused
03-04-2008, 18:35
Hehe. space wolves, sitting getting plastered on kegs an kegs of beer and singing drinking songs in there young boy castrati opera choir. Don't be silly, marines have a "lower horn" they just don't use it other than to pee. ever. Traitors do but thats cos they also have balls:eek:, and they know how to use em:p.

Gue'la Koholic
03-04-2008, 19:10
Well, from a science and practical stand point, I could consider calling them Eunuchs, as I'm fairly certain that they are incapable of reproducing. The genetic conditioning would sufficiently change their genes to prevent mating with non-Astartes females, and there's not too many Lady space marines out there. On top of that, they really have no desire to copulate anyways. They may have their bits still, but they are functionally worthless. So, I could see the eunuchs analogy.

Would I suggest to anyone in the 41st Millennium that they should call an Astarte a eunuch? Only if they wanted their touch busted out.

Luisjoey
03-04-2008, 19:43
A new question arises

Chaos space marines have breed? that´s very terrible!

Especially those who worship slanesh! Heretics!

Lucifer216
03-04-2008, 21:19
Could I point out that the only reason why testes are in a sack external to the body is becuase sperm need a lower temperature in order to mature correctly. There's no reason why marines couldn't have said sack removed and their testes placed inside their torso for "safe keeping". Testosterone production probably wouldn't be affected.

What could be removed is the prostrate gland, without which men are pretty much impotent. As this is only needed to produce seminal fluid, it's removal would render a marine incapable of sex, but without hindering his aggression or muscle density.

pepe5454
03-04-2008, 21:25
I guess this is a as good a thread to ask as any. In the Wiki on white scars it says they are the only known space marines capable of having offspring of their own. Anyone know where this came from or is it just trash on wiki?

Lucifer216
03-04-2008, 21:40
No idea.

However....

It would be almost child's play to perform a small tissue biopsis on the testicles of a recruit prior to the space marine induction process. That could be treated with hormones and then used to produce sperm that could be used to produce a child via artifical insemination.

Such a technique would be a good way of ensuring that the best warrior genes from a culture are not removed from the gene pool. I had considered such a system being used by my own chapter, the Stars of Dorn as they recruit from a single world.

Adra
03-04-2008, 22:06
not this topic again....

Castration isnt mentioned and the armour does seem to be allowing for some bulk in that area. Also there is at least one BL referance in the first HH book that gives a wink to the large scale of a marines member.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-04-2008, 22:17
This will not end well.


No they aren't castrated, everything still works down there. They MIGHT shoot blanks, but they still get their dose of testosterone.

Sounds like the best explanation so far.


In the Wiki on white scars it says they are the only known space marines capable of having offspring of their own. Anyone know where this came from or is it just trash on wiki?

Did it quote a source? Was it properly cited? If so, did you check the source? If it isn't so, I'd expect this to be either old (old old old) fluff that should be retconned or someone inserting their own crap into the Wiki.


Castration isnt mentioned and the armour does seem to be allowing for some bulk in that area. Also there is at least one BL referance in the first HH book that gives a wink to the large scale of a marines member.

Great. :rolleyes: More stellar writing from BL.

@Lucifer216: Yeah, that sounds like a simple process. Although I'm in the camp that all the stimms and painkillers a Marine ingests in battle would make such attacks against more... vulnerable parts ineffective. Plus the more surgery you do on something, the more chances there are that it will go wrong. Especially in the 41st millennium when they really don't know what it is that they are doing.

pepe5454
03-04-2008, 22:24
Errata

White scars are the only known Space marines able to have children.


That is all it states I was just reading up on some of the chapters and ran across that and it stuck in my head it does not reference a source that I saw.

Imperialis_Dominatus
03-04-2008, 22:27
I see. I'd flag it as BS then.

ctsteel
04-04-2008, 07:21
I actually thought it was the Salamanders who were known to retain families when at home (or something like that). Which may not mean actual children, so much as extended families (cousins etc). not sure. I've heard reference to it on here before so I presume it was from an old chapter approved or such.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-04-2008, 07:44
Heard that about the Sallies too, but it's simply that they keep in touch with those they left behind, not that they run around making little Salamanders. ;)

Iuris
04-04-2008, 10:20
Say, there might be one thing that would indicate possible marine fertility problems: I remember seeing a medical show about how testosterone can be used as a way to render a man sterile. Somethign along the lines of testosterone stimulates sperm production, but overdosing has the contrary effect.

A quick search found this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3543478/

Finnith
04-04-2008, 10:47
Id say it would be a combination of several things:

a) Chemically sterile
b) Psycho indoctrination
c) My own addition to the argument: getting an erection requires certain chemicals (which is why viagra, a pill, works). It could be that marines process out the chemicals so fast due to their physiology that they can never have an erection in the first place so sex, even without reproduction is pretty much impossible.
d) Marines also seem to go through super puberty when they are being made so god knows how awkward, spotty and messy its going to be. Hell with all that testosterone running around them its amazing that they would ever leave their crusty bunks other than to get another box of tissues. Though it could explain why they form such attachments to their bolters.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-04-2008, 10:52
At first I thought, 'man, that's graphic...' Then I saw who posted it. :p Jeez, Finnith.

Finnith
04-04-2008, 12:29
What?!? People on the above posts were talking about chopping bits off, bits either shrinking or growing to vast sizes. Someone always mentions the emperors children on earth raping like a bunch of rabbits on speed in these threads as well. Thats all ok but hinting what a teenage marine might get up to in his bunk and its seen as lewd.

In the future billions of people are killed or mutilated every day yet they all do it fully clothed and without swearing. The South Park movie was right.

Imperialis_Dominatus
04-04-2008, 13:01
Oh, Finnith. My attentions are wasted, I shall poke fun at thee no more...

Adra
04-04-2008, 13:51
Id say it would be a combination of several things:

a) Chemically sterile
b) Psycho indoctrination
c) My own addition to the argument: getting an erection requires certain chemicals (which is why viagra, a pill, works). It could be that marines process out the chemicals so fast due to their physiology that they can never have an erection in the first place so sex, even without reproduction is pretty much impossible.
d) Marines also seem to go through super puberty when they are being made so god knows how awkward, spotty and messy its going to be. Hell with all that testosterone running around them its amazing that they would ever leave their crusty bunks other than to get another box of tissues. Though it could explain why they form such attachments to their bolters.

That super puberty seems to happen when they are in their vats so i dout they go through a rampant jerk-tastic period.

I dont think we can use EC as examples of anything as for all we know they mutate in order bunny bum their enemies

Luisjoey
04-04-2008, 16:11
I dont think we can use EC as examples of anything as for all we know they mutate in order bunny bum their enemies

EC groth their bodies 20%? their whole body! XD

The topic/disscusion is very interesting, i really learning and could help in my future entry to the fiction of the RPG. thanks

flopi
04-04-2008, 17:23
The only fluff i recall about marines & sex is from first edition, and is of some marines that were send to a paraise world to have relax with local women as a reward for military achivements. So don´t think they are enuch... żAnybody has seen any fluff that said otherwise? Perhaps it changed, 40K imagery has changed a lot from the "funny, gore, punk & somewhat ridiculous" to the "lot of violence, stern warrios & zero sex, zero humor".

Luisjoey
04-04-2008, 17:58
i like the change XD

maybe from first edition comes the rumors of 3 livers!