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MrBigMr
03-04-2008, 10:08
Came up in the daemon army rumour thread.
The daemons get a banner that allows you to choose a lore before the battle and all rolls from that lore get penalties (the wording simply says "lore"). Now, what all are counted as lores? Do army specific spells, such as Orc and Skaven spells count into lores?

Just want to make sure as my friend claims they don't as they're not lores per se, but something completely different.

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 10:30
I suspect that the intent is for any "spell list" to count as a lore, but the rules do not state this anywhere.

Again the list of questions for the FAQ starts well in advance of the book being published :(

Leogun_91
03-04-2008, 11:22
A lore is short for a spell lore and any spelllist that is in an armybook like the lores of the big and little Waagh! and the lore of Athel Loren should be included it should as well affect magic lores that do not have lore in their name as Highmagic and Gutmagic. The runelore in the Dwarf armybook used to invoke anvil runes would however not count as it is no true spelllore and can not be used to cast spells.

UltimateNagash
03-04-2008, 11:36
Look at the 8 Lores of Magic. It says 8. Therefore I would count the 8 Lores in the book as the Lores they mean. No GW book nowadays refers to another army book now...

marv335
03-04-2008, 11:45
I think it would be prudent to wait and see what the exact wording is in the item description in the army book when it is published.
At the moment all we can do is speculate.

MrBigMr
03-04-2008, 11:46
Look at the 8 Lores of Magic. It says 8. Therefore I would count the 8 Lores in the book as the Lores they mean. No GW book nowadays refers to another army book now...
There's also Lore of Nurgle, Lore of Tzeentch, Lore of Slaanesh, I believe the elves have lores, etc. The wording was "Choose a Lore." Doesn't say if it's the ones in the rulebook or what.

SuperBeast
03-04-2008, 11:58
It will specify the rulebook, or one of the big 8 I.e. colour magic (stakes reputation).

MrBigMr
03-04-2008, 12:10
It will specify the rulebook, or one of the big 8 I.e. colour magic (stakes reputation).
Minus67, who has been kind enough to quote the book to us said that the banner simply says "At the beginning of the game, choose a lore. All wizards casting from that lore suffer... blaa blaa blaa."

Faust
03-04-2008, 12:51
"At the beginning of the game, choose a lore. All wizards casting from that lore suffer... blaa blaa blaa."

By that wording the big 8 lores do not have anything that would imply the last part of the wording..All wizards casting from that lore suffer....

This to me is that you may choose to cast Ogre Magic, but suffer the Ogre miscast table along with the Orcs and Goblins Magic. As you would not need to state the 'All wizards casting form that lore suffer....

Another look at it would be a completely different Miscast table for Daemons as I think a couple miscasts for Mortals mentions the Warp/Plane of Magic opening up and a daemon coming out. Seems like cake for me if I am a daemon.

Also please note, like some have said, just speculate about the impact, not the rule at the moment.

Faust

UltimateNagash
03-04-2008, 12:51
There's also Lore of Nurgle, Lore of Tzeentch, Lore of Slaanesh, I believe the elves have lores, etc. The wording was "Choose a Lore." Doesn't say if it's the ones in the rulebook or what.
Yes, but look at how GW do stuff now. No refer to this book. Therefore it won't be anything but the 8...

T10
03-04-2008, 13:25
Just want to make sure as my friend claims they don't as they're not lores per se, but something completely different.

How about giving this one a wait until the Daemon army list is published?

-T10

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 13:35
How about giving this one a wait until the Daemon army list is published?Why? The wording of the rule is known, so why wait for some arbitrary date?

T10
03-04-2008, 14:07
Good point. The publication date really doesn't matter. If the item escription is complete then the effect will be the same, published or not. I'd like to follow up with a question of my own.

The Grimback Claw bound of the rumoured Troll Tribes is a bound spell that is rumoured to say: "All models fighting the troll takes a S6 hit, no armour save allowed." What if the unit hasn't attakced yet? Are they fighting the troll? Which troll? The one with the item or any troll?

-T10

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 14:09
Ooh, a pretty straw man.

The rule is not "rumoured" to say anything. The rule is in print (albeit limited availability).

T10
03-04-2008, 14:16
Context is sometimes important.

If, before the Orcs & Goblins army list was published, somebody asked if a "Goblins only" item would be available to Night Goblins, it would be hard to provide a well founded answer, seeing as that question is adressed in the general O&G rules for magical items.

So there. Now get those birds off of me!

-T10

SuperBeast
03-04-2008, 14:21
Ah... I get the OP's point now.
The banner is a magical defence, not a 'choose a lore to use' item.
I.e. nominate 'Lore of Fire' and any wizards using that Lore get penalties.

siphon101
03-04-2008, 14:33
you know it's funny I had the exact conversation with someone last night, and I noticed a bit of a loophole for vampire counts.

The book clearly spells out the "lore of vampires" which includes 6 spells. But Invocation of Nehek isn't in that lore. It's an entirely seperate spell that's outside the Lore of Vampires. So would this be affected?

Atrahasis
03-04-2008, 14:41
It's of extremely limited utility against Slann too, since they can choose from multiple lores and have drain magic regardless.

AlexCage
03-04-2008, 15:15
The banner does specifically say "Chose any lore" with no further modifers or qualifiers what so ever. So the only thing to debate is the semantic of what counts as a lore. Correct me if I'm wrong (sorry, I don't have it with me at the moment), but doesn't the BRB define a lore as a list of spells that can be cast? And says that some armies have their own specific lores, and the 8 in the book are just the 'common' lores? I may be mistaken on that though.

In the spirit of the rules, though, not counting army specific magic as 'lores' would seriously nerf this banner. Useless against alot of armies, like O&G, VC, OK, TK, WE, etc etc. That doesn't sound at all right.

Then again, the Orcbane shield is not particularly versatile. Hrm.

Chicago Slim
03-04-2008, 15:19
If the rule as quoted ends up being the published RAW, then I'd definitely argue that any spell-list that has "Lore" in it's title counts, not just the 8 from the BRB. So, the Lore of Pleasure and Pain (Slaanesh magic), as one example, would clearly be one you could choose to nerf.

MrBigMr
03-04-2008, 18:04
It's of extremely limited utility against Slann too, since they can choose from multiple lores and have drain magic regardless.
But still good at limiting options available to your opponent. If he can take magic from a lore that would cause you trouble, putting sanctions on it will give you some breathing space.


you know it's funny I had the exact conversation with someone last night, and I noticed a bit of a loophole for vampire counts.

The book clearly spells out the "lore of vampires" which includes 6 spells. But Invocation of Nehek isn't in that lore. It's an entirely seperate spell that's outside the Lore of Vampires. So would this be affected?
I doubt it'll be affected. Bound spell are surely also unaffected, even if the spell was the same name and effect as a spell in a lore. Only if casting from a lore. So if you can shoot fireballs from a banner as a bound spell, it shouldn't count as it's not cast from a lore.


If the rule as quoted ends up being the published RAW, then I'd definitely argue that any spell-list that has "Lore" in it's title counts, not just the 8 from the BRB. So, the Lore of Pleasure and Pain (Slaanesh magic), as one example, would clearly be one you could choose to nerf.
I think this is why mounted daemonettes were named as seekers of Slaanesh. The Slaanesh Herald gives daemonettes ASF and as such only infantry 'nettes. With the name altered, no one can claim "hey, they're mounted daemonettes."


This to me is that you may choose to cast Ogre Magic, but suffer the Ogre miscast table along with the Orcs and Goblins Magic. As you would not need to state the 'All wizards casting form that lore suffer....
Huh? Wait, what?

Nurgling Chieftain
03-04-2008, 18:50
I think the RaI is any spell list. A few of them not being referred to as "lores" is almost certainly NOT an intentional method of weeding them in or out. Note that I'm sure even "spell list" would not be satisfactory to prevent RaW arguments about exactly what that meant.

Yehoshua
03-04-2008, 19:42
Again, the book is published - it will not change. I hath held a published copy in mine own very hands and hath doth read it, and I say unto thee, yea, verily, the quote is true: "A Lore." edit: sure

MrBigMr
03-04-2008, 19:50
"A Lore."
Fixed, I believe, if the information given to me is correct.

Caboose123
03-04-2008, 20:27
Do you choose it before or after a player rolls his spells?

Greyfire
03-04-2008, 21:22
Do you choose it before or after a player rolls his spells?

Now, that's a good question. And that goes to a question in a recent game: are you required to disclose either the lore you take or the spells you roll before the start of a game?

I don't mean what we each do out of our own fairness (I disclose both, but I don't know why), but is this supposed to stay secret like magic items?

So.... how does the lore selection work normally, and with this new item?

-=- Steve

The Clairvoyant
03-04-2008, 22:07
I think the RaI is any spell list. A few of them not being referred to as "lores" is almost certainly NOT an intentional method of weeding them in or out. Note that I'm sure even "spell list" would not be satisfactory to prevent RaW arguments about exactly what that meant.

Agreed. I think its obvious what the intention is - applying to all lores/spell lists.
But the RAW people will pick the word they wish to focus their attention on in order to gain an advantage

Chicago Slim
04-04-2008, 03:10
Again, the book is published - it will not change.

Pre-sales drafts have appeared and then been changed before the public release before. Any given paragraph is exceedingly unlikely to change between pre-release and release publication, certainly, but my rule is, I'll believe it when I can buy it and take it out of the store with me...

Greyfire
04-04-2008, 12:14
I found my book and the time to re-read page 111.


Now, that's a good question. And that goes to a question in a recent game: are you required to disclose either the lore you take or the spells you roll before the start of a game?

You chose lores and roll spells in the open before deployment. So, no, it's not secret. Each player makes their rolls in the open, with one player going first (the once with the highest caster or dice off if tied). So the second player hasn't selected their lore yet when the first player is rolling spells for his wizards.


So.... how does the lore selection work normally, and with this new item?

So the lore is known before the first unit is placed. I'm guessing the item is used at the start of battle like other items, like the Lizardman enchanted item Bane Head.

Sorry bug everyone with what I should have looked up when I got home, but I think that does answer Caboose123's question, too.

BTW, page 111 seems (IMHO) to answer the OP's question. "Wizards usually know only one magical lore." So any spell a wizard knows must come from a lore. I'd be hard pressed to argue that anything other than the eight are not lores since that page also makes mention that other army books have their own unique spell lists. Again, just my opinion, I could be wrong.

-=- Steve

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2008, 12:28
You pick the lore to be affected after deployment (I think) and its certainly at a point after spells have been chosen/ rolled. You can check if you like its in the daemon rumours thread a few pages back.

Caboose123
04-04-2008, 13:04
Seen as how your post included:

I'm guessing the item is used at the start of battle
Its really not that handy but thanks anyways :)

As for every wizard choosing a lore as per page 111, are all spell casters wizards? Without having the TK book is a Liche Priest a wizard? I dont think so because it states seperatly how many dispel dice you get for each one. Therfore their incantations would not have to be a lore.

I think they could take spells from ny list, but with the exception of TKs,because after reading their army book its clear its not technically a lore. (but i dont have the OK or VC books so cant argue those.)

Atrahasis
04-04-2008, 13:53
One lore/ list that wont be affect are tomb king incantations they specifically note that "Items which modify the power level of spells do not affect Incantations".

There's an erroneous "not" in your quotation, which completely tips the meaning of the sentence on its head.

Liche [High] Priests are explicitly wizards, but that still doesn't prove whether the list of Incantations (which are "treated as normal spells") is a lore.

Gazak Blacktoof
04-04-2008, 14:59
Damn you're right, ooops :p.

I'll go crawl in a hole.

Jack of Blades
04-04-2008, 15:25
Came up in the daemon army rumour thread.
The daemons get a banner that allows you to choose a lore before the battle and all rolls from that lore get penalties (the wording simply says "lore"). Now, what all are counted as lores? Do army specific spells, such as Orc and Skaven spells count into lores?

Just want to make sure as my friend claims they don't as they're not lores per se, but something completely different.

Your friend is beyond ridiculous in this matter.
Of course they're lores... wtf is he thinking... Although I'm honestly hoping he's just cheating, as then he can at least be busted. If he's just stupid, then it's difficult.

Atrahasis
04-04-2008, 15:29
Yes, anyone who disagrees with you must be a liar or a cheat.

There is no definition of lore in the rules, so it's not unreasonable to assume only things labeled as lores are lores.

MrBigMr
04-04-2008, 15:43
Your friend is beyond ridiculous in this matter.
Of course they're lores... wtf is he thinking... Although I'm honestly hoping he's just cheating, as then he can at least be busted. If he's just stupid, then it's difficult.
Once I can present him with black on white, he'll allow it.

As for the other part... Well, I wouldn't say he's stupid, he's just an *******. Didn't matter when we saw each other every once in a while in school or such, but after working almost a year now with him 6 day a week (5 days work, 1 day of keeping up a RPG/wargaming club), his little quirks have turned into mind-boggling proportions.

I'm not the only one. He tends to get on everyones nerves all the time and even when he is told to give it up, get over it or just stop it, he never does. And if he does, he'll be at it again soon enough.

I so want to just understand and love thy neighbour (that's how I am, a big fat Jesus), but it gets hard at times. One time at the club I got so ready to throw him onto the floor and stomp him (last time I felt like was in the army and that time I didn't leave), but as there really wasn't anything holding me there, I saw it best to leave. And the next day he told everyone at work that I got out of order and he threw me out.

With "friends" like these...

Jack of Blades
04-04-2008, 15:43
Yes, anyone who disagrees with you must be a liar or a cheat.

There is no definition of lore in the rules, so it's not unreasonable to assume only things labeled as lores are lores.

I'm just baffled. I tried to reply, but the idea that people are actually considering this stupid idea is too much for me.

@ MrBigMr

Why the hell do you bother with him? or is it a case of you must bother with him, as you seem to be saying that? What does he do to get on people's nerves anyway, would be nice with a PM or something. He might be in need of a psychologist.

Greyfire
04-04-2008, 15:52
Seen as how your post included:

I'm guessing the item is used at the start of battle

Its really not that handy but thanks anyways :)

If you're thinking that guess thing means I'm really just guessing, that's not what I'm meaning. Sorry for that. I'm confident that I'm correct, so please feel free to quote me. :) But please let me know when I'm wrong, too. (Hence, the "guessing" part - I hate sounding like a know-it-all.)


As for every wizard choosing a lore as per page 111, are all spell casters wizards?
I think I remember reading several threads about the definition of a wizard (lich priest? arch lector? etc). The only definition I know is the one on that page where it mentions that wizards are called by many names (shamans, etc).

Is the Liche Priest a wizard? Probably, but it's been argued well both ways in other threads. Does it matter for the OP's question on this magic item and the Tomb King spells? No.

Is it a neat magic item? It sounds like it could be quite useful against skink priests and battle wizards (or maybe it's just my dice that hit the exact number I need more often then they should. :) )

-=- Steve

PS: I love your quotes from OOTS. Am I the only one that hears the voice of Lucy Liu from Kill Bill when she gives her speech at the meeting when Belkar says his line? I mean that's a little weird, but they way she says "anyone got any problem" sounds the same. :)