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View Full Version : Thoughts on a Crazy HE Tactic



Kloud13
03-04-2008, 20:05
I was Thinking about giving a Noble, A Longbow, A Great Weapon, Armour of Stars, and the Talisman of Loec. The Idea is that, you let him get out in the open by himself to take a potshot at some enemy unit or character or something. The trick is to line him up so your opponent thinks he can charge him, and then get overrun into one of your units. He won't get shot, because your opponent will declare a charge against him, he will stand and shoot, maybe get lucky, but your opponent won't fear the bow because you used it already and revealed it to be a mundane bow. Then you use the Talisman of Loec, with the Great Weapon, you should kill enough stuff so there are no attacks back. But he is going to win by combat resolution, but you take a wound from the Talisman, The Armour of Stars Teleports him out of there, No overrun because they didn't destroy him. Now you should have a charge on the ofending unit. And, The noble if he didn't get teleported too far, will also join the counter charge, or if he scattered in the right direction, he might even be in position to take out a mage, or warmachine, whatever.

Tell me What you guys think.

Spyro35
03-04-2008, 20:39
That is actually a pretty NASTY DIRTY trick xD

But I suppose the only problem with that trick is, you're assuming he survives all this. Say if he was fighting VCs or maybe even Ogres with alll those impact hits... could be risky

I think the idea is awesome though

Tecliso
03-04-2008, 20:47
lol x'D great idea! Maby I will try it once.. juist for fun :P

soots
03-04-2008, 20:59
That a very expensive way to get 3 S6 attacks in.

gd09garett
03-04-2008, 21:16
That a very expensive way to get 3 S6 attacks in.

Agreed. Of course, you did all this just to set up a charge that the opponent can simply flee away from and then counter charge your now exposed units. Plus, it will only work if there are no knights or chariots around. I think there are more useful things to be down with a noble.

Volker the Mad Fiddler

Kloud13
03-04-2008, 21:18
That a very expensive way to get 3 S6 attacks in.

It's only 143pts but the point isn't to get the 3 strength 6 attacks in, The point is to lure an expensive enemy unit into a trap. And that is how he makes his points back, and, if you are lucky, for an added bonus, wouldn't it be crazy if he teleported right beside an enemy mage or war Machine, and he gets there just before your turn.

Kloud13
03-04-2008, 21:31
Agreed. Of course, you did all this just to set up a charge that the opponent can simply flee away from and then counter charge your now exposed units. Plus, it will only work if there are no knights or chariots around. I think there are more useful things to be down with a noble.

Volker the Mad Fiddler

I think a Bretonian General would think twice about fleeing, for, if he did, his fleeing unit would be getting my Bolt Throwers up his backside, and no Ward Save. And you can be sure I'd be saving this trick for Grail Knights, or the dreaded Pegasus.

Any foot unit that tries to flee, trying to out run elves,,,,,risky.

And obviously, I wouldn't be baiting a Chariot.

Da Black Gobbo
03-04-2008, 22:45
is a nasty trick there! lol is a one use only dirty combo! congratulations it may not be that impresive but can be game wining most of all against frenzied guys, you get where you want and then smack flanks!

Cortomaltese
03-04-2008, 23:43
this trick rules against psyco-immunies or frienzed or everything like that! :)
against all the rest it can be risky, but the idea is worth trying it once! i never field that noble in a tournament, but congratulation again! ;)

Aranel
03-04-2008, 23:57
Inspired! Must have a go at that. just make sure the other army can't gun him down

Dark_Mage99
04-04-2008, 00:39
A very nifty trick... definitely worth trying. Although not to be used against the same opponent twice, perhaps :D

IronBrother
04-04-2008, 01:12
I am going to try that tomorrow, already setting up the game for it.

soots
04-04-2008, 01:32
yeah but id rather bait with a cheap unit.

Dont forget after your trick, your noble now has the resilience who is worse than a 3pt goblin (T3 6+ save).

Armilthuan
04-04-2008, 07:44
It's plausible. However, it takes one trick to beat a one trick pony.

Also, don't expect to sweep the front rank clear, even with Talisman of Loec. Especially when there's a character in the unit, in which case, you need to kill both the character, a unit champion and one rank-n-file model. You can't do that with only 3 attacks. Then, if they take off the remaining wound off the model, you are screwed.

It's a common misconception that you get the wound 'immediately'. It's quite the opposite, you get the wound sometime after the opponent has swung his weapon (don't have the rulebook with me to check, but it is most definately, not immeadiately), which, in the situation described above puts your opponent in a good spot to deal that last wound.

static grass
04-04-2008, 09:45
He doesn't need to sweep the front rank clear just everyone in base to base contact.

Anyway if it wasn't crazy then it would probably never work.

Armilthuan
04-04-2008, 09:50
That's what I meant, but it hardly makes a difference does it? 2 rank and file models and a character are more wounds than you have attacks.

Come to think of it, you are better off pulling this trick without the Talisman of Loec.

luckysevens
04-04-2008, 10:03
Personally, I always thought the Armour of Stars was one of the most useless magic items around - until someone told me about this tactic at a tournament, effectively doubling its usefulness - charge blocking, and challenging killer characters/monstrous mounts to deny overkill. It's still very situational, and would take some careful planning, but it's a nice option to have; and even if you don't get a chance to pull it out, at the very least you have a GW noble beefing up a unit of spearmen or something.

Why even take the Talisman? As far as I know, Armour of Stars makes you teleport as soon as you suffer one wound (at least, that's how it was in 6th - it may have changed, in which case I apologise, no book to hand). So take the charge, deal your normal attacks, and take a wound as normal. The only risk would be if the enemy unit failed to wound at all which, if you're doing it to the right enemy unit (i.e. a nasty one) shouldn't be a problem. Remember you don't have to use the GW - leaving the enemy front rank alive if you're worried there won't be any attacks back.

As for the enemy fleeing away from your charge, again, if you've picked the right target and set it up right (i.e. with a nearby cavalry unit, or better yet an eagle) he can't run without almost certainly dying.

The biggest problem I can see with it is the enemy simply not charging the noble - wandering around on his own with a normal longbow, unless your opponent thinks you're an idiot, he must know you're up to something. To stop him from simply not charging, you would have to be more aggressive and go right up to enemy unit to make it a choice between charging and wasting a turn. Even then, you'd have to manouevre your other units in quite an obvious way - the noble might just end up getting shot.

DeathlessDraich
04-04-2008, 11:08
1) The Armour teleports in a *random* direction. The Noble could be teleported into the charging arc of enemy units.
The most common 3D6 roll is 10-11.
Against M5 or better:
a) the probability that the noble teleports outside the charging arc of the unit it was in combat with is a reasonable 75% if there are no nearby enemy units
b) The presence of enemy units on either side reduces this probability to less than 50%

2) The Noble has lost victory pts
3) The Noble cannot afford to suffer even 1 wound during the combat. If the Talisman's re-rolls fails, the Noble could be dead!

Kloud13
04-04-2008, 16:27
I was thinking a little about this this morning while I was still laying in bed. I think it is important to have the talisman, just to be sure that you are wounded in certain situations. I think with this tactic, A guy has to be very selective about when he uses the Talisman. Also issue a challenge, If he has a character in the unit, he may suspect you are up to something, and may take the challenge with a unit Champion instead, use the talisman to insure you take the wound. If his Character decides to take the challenge, If your sure you can kill him, use the talisman, if unsure don't use it, take a wound from combat, and poof.

@DeathlessDraich
Not really a big deal if he teleports into another units Charge Arc, The idea of this tactic is that he gets charged on your opponents turn, and teleports on your opponents turn. If he is in an opponents Charge arc, It should be your movement Phase next to move him out, or whatever he needs to do. But like I said before, There is a good chance he may get teleported behind your opponents fighting line, you know, that area where warmachines and Mages hang out. That lone noble should be more than a match for most warmachine crews, or mages. He will be a lone character, with a 360 degree charge arc.

TheDudeGuyMan
09-04-2008, 20:18
To make this even tactic even sillier, you could give the Armor of Stars, GW, Talisman of Loec and Bow of the Sea-Fairer (or whatever it's called--the 60 point one that lets you shoot like a bolt thrower) to a prince :)

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 09:07
If a weedy elf jumped out of a unit infront of me shooting a long bow..... i would simply just chuck a few arrows at him? why dedicate an entire unit at him? even if you wanted the overkill/run then you would be aware that noble would simply flee as a char response anyway?

Also put it into an army setting, you wouldnt expect that unit you have baited to charge on its own now would you? Your opponent really sill enough to think oh wait, i will kill this guy, over run into that juicy unit behind him and then wait. I dont get to fight a second round as they arent in combat so ill have to wait till there turn, during which i will be flanked charged.

This tactic seems like something you come up with and think oooooooooo what a quirky little tactic. you make the hero, put him in your list 100 times and get it to work once. I would much rather spend those 143 points on a noble who can actually contribute regularly

thedodgeypanda
10-04-2008, 09:48
Id rather use this combo and charge a Level 3 or 4 wizard in the unit, unleash all the attacks on them, hope to survive and teleport out and do it again to another wizard... i play againsed alot of magic heavy armys. this should work!

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 11:15
Why not simply charge in the character and a unit? Kill the unit and a wizard? HE are meant to win 1o1 fights, not have to send in lone foot mounted characters

Ris
19-04-2008, 15:54
although at first i thought this was quite clever, id now probably question how often it would actually work.

personally, i dont think a good general is going to charge a lone character...particularly one that strikes first, without thinking there is some kind of trick to it.

I think its far more likely he will be ignored, shooting or magic will take him down quickly without risk of being tricked

it also goes without saying that if you suffer a wound in combat, as after all theres never 100% guarentee that you will kill all base to base models (particularly if characters are involved) then the character will die as soon as teleporting away xD

would be funny if that lured fanatics though...

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 15:59
What if he gets charged by a unit of Bretonnian Knights? They're getting probably +2 or +3 static CR to begin with. Then, even S6 only brings their save to a 5+, followed by another 5+. Then, he'll be on the recieving end of, say, 6-8 S5 attacks. He won't kill enough to stop lance formation and win combat, and will be skewered in return.

Against Empire knights, this might work, but the Bretonnian ward save makes it very unlikely he'll kill enough.

Ris
19-04-2008, 16:10
if your feeling confident could always try and whip off a bears anger first :p

6 S6 attacks
rerolling missed hits
rerolling failed wounds
forcing rerolls on all kinds of saves
...and extra toughness for the hell of it

then again who in their right mind would let that spell be cast? xD

Xavier
19-04-2008, 16:16
Challenge perhaps? Assuming theres no scary characters.

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 16:17
Hmmm, that's a good point, you could challenge and 1HK him if you have an item that lets you do that. Another thing to watch out for.

Incidentally, challenges only add to combat resolution, and are not the sole CR in that round, right? And everyone else still fights?

Ris
19-04-2008, 16:28
my understanding is that in this circumstance the unit would not get to attack as only challengers fight in challenges, and this is a lone character

so effectively the unit does nothing, aside from providing the usual CR for things like ranks, outnumber, etc

blueon462
19-04-2008, 16:49
just man up...and submit to the pressures of the star dragon...you know they are gonna be all over the tourney scene.

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 18:36
This is fantastic for dealing with ASF'd Bloodknights, I tell you now!

Ris
19-04-2008, 18:43
you are joking right?

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 19:03
If that was at me, elaborate?

winkypinky
19-04-2008, 19:34
The trick is to line him up so your opponent thinks he can charge him, and then get overrun into one of your units.


The second most well known trick in the HE book since 6th edition.... Right after dragon armour gives immunity to fire.
- It will not surprise anyone. (that I know)

Sigmar
19-04-2008, 19:49
Lol, I like it but wouldn't use it except for a chuckle. The results of the Armour of Stars is far too random for a competitve game.

Ris
19-04-2008, 21:12
If that was at me, elaborate?

from what i read up on blood knights they would rip this hero a new hole :p
of course i could be forgetting something i guess

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 21:31
my understanding is that in this circumstance the unit would not get to attack as only challengers fight in challenges, and this is a lone character

so effectively the unit does nothing, aside from providing the usual CR for things like ranks, outnumber, etc

Hmm, true.

Well, if I was Brets I'd just ignore the challenge, lose the blessing, and pulp the character.

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 22:24
BloodKnights Charge, HE Noble goes first, even with no kills, the Blood Knights have now been drawn out into a character since they HAVE to charge him, no you can mangle them up no worries. Your Noble gets pumped off somewhere, who cares where? He may even pop off behind your lines with a good firing arc to knock off a few more targets with his bow.

The whole 'it's too random for competative' argument is precisely why quirky, entirely 100% risk ideas such as this work on people. Because most of the time your opponent won't expect you to be so obvious, and lo and behold, the 'Complimentary Bottle of Wine MUST be poisoned' D&D argument comes back to haunt the gaming world.

Sod it I say, Armour of Stars Baiting ftw!

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 22:27
Problem is, with the spells available to Vampires, he can cast ASF on the Blood Knights, can't he? Or does Danse Macabre only work for Undead and not Vampires?

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 22:30
My argument there was, High Elf ASF vs. ASF Blood Knights would give the Int higher HE the attacks first, but they'd be charging so, the Noble would take the wound, then teleport out regardless, at which point, no Overrun, so the Blood Knights would STILL be in the right position for a lovely charge from whatever you so wish to maul them with.

Lord Raneus
19-04-2008, 22:35
Ah, it's auto after the first wound?
In that case, if I was the Vampire player I'd try and Danse some Black Knights into the combat (if they still have KB) or just plain Danse anything in to support or raise some charge blockers to save the Blood Knights. Given Invocation of Nehek, it's quite possible for the Vampire player to ruin this trap through the simple expident of raising a few zombies in front or to the sides of his knights.

Shamfrit
19-04-2008, 22:48
An interesting counter strategy, but in all honesty how likely is a HE player going to allow that? HE can amount a very, very reasonable amount of Magical defence with one or two mages and knowing that is the option to stopping the trap, would try their hardest to counter it (which I suppose would give both players away...)

Now that you make me think about it, it would need to be judged very carefully.

pwnasaurus rex
20-04-2008, 00:32
Hey guys I've read this forum for a while but have never signed up...anyway I just wanted to point out that ToL wound happens at the end of the combat phase, so your character would have to survive a break test before teleporting away...

Ris
20-04-2008, 01:01
ahh how did no one see that :) too true
and then blood knights are outnumbering and causing fear xD

Andrew Luke
20-04-2008, 01:49
Also note that if you play anywhere that you reveal army lists, the chances of this fooling anyone are exactly zero...

Ris
20-04-2008, 02:27
again i say...there is no chance that any kind of good general would think a lone character placed in front of a charge didnt have some kind of trick to it. granted they may not realise its an armour of stars trick...but at the end of the day they dont need to

Shamfrit
20-04-2008, 02:44
Start him in Shadow Warriors, :)

Ris
20-04-2008, 15:02
wouldnt he need the scout special rule then? aka as per shadow armour

id prefer giving my talisman of loec to say...a mounted lord using the starlance

on the turn he charges:

* 4 WS7 S7 Attacks (Prince)
* Rerolling missed hits
* Rerolling missed wounds
* Allowing no armour save
* Forcing rerolls on successful saves (aka ward...regen)
Pretty much as close as it comes to 4 guarenteed wounds...all for 50 points...

Or how about this, give it to someone using the white sword...which among other things confers killing blow. So essentially...misses stand another chance to land on 6 and kill outright ;)

Shamfrit
20-04-2008, 15:25
Not really, you could deploy the Shadow Warriors behind your lines as flankers, have the Noble join and split as it moves across the lines.

But the Star Lance idea kicks just as much ass.

Lord Raneus
20-04-2008, 16:22
An interesting counter strategy, but in all honesty how likely is a HE player going to allow that? HE can amount a very, very reasonable amount of Magical defence with one or two mages and knowing that is the option to stopping the trap, would try their hardest to counter it (which I suppose would give both players away...)

Now that you make me think about it, it would need to be judged very carefully.

True, but given the apparent Vampire capability to mage spam, they can probably overwhelm HE dispels. And there's always the random Irresistible Force you must worry about, as well.

W0lf
20-04-2008, 20:16
Or your opponent could say:

A (likely) expensive and horribly fragile hero in the open? Magic missile/shot = DEAD and free VP.s

plus why not just put him in a unit and let them chrage you.. you have ASF anyway so charging holds no benefit to you unlees you face cav with lances..

Dragon Prince of Caledor
20-04-2008, 20:22
I think that takes the cake as the most original idea for a tactic. It would be really nasty if used correctly;)