PDA

View Full Version : Multiple wound attacks and Overkill



Conotor
03-04-2008, 22:38
If my oldblood with a parana blade (every succesfull attack does 2 wounds) challenges a unit champion with 1 wound, and get 3 wounds which pass armore, (the blade multiples this to 6)
Do i get 6 combat res (1 + 5 overkill)...
Or 3, as the champion only has 1 wound therefore I killed him 3 times...
Or 5, as I killed him and then got 4 overkill wounds?

T10
03-04-2008, 22:44
Doh! I voted something elce. Didn't red the post.

-T10

theunwantedbeing
03-04-2008, 22:44
You get 6, as he has taken 6 wounds.(well 3 which are then multiplied into 6)
A single wound champion in a challenge can suffer multiple wounds just fine.

ObiWan
03-04-2008, 22:50
Yes and no, yes he gets 6 wounds, but no because it isn't for the number of wounds caused per se, since the bonus has a cap of +5, so it's six because of 1 original wound and +5 excess wounds cap limit, which happens to coincide in this example.
But in the essence, yes in a challenge a single wound champion can get wounded more than once and count such wounds for resolution as explained

Lordmonkey
04-04-2008, 02:07
Six, because you scored 5 more wounds than were required to slay the challenger, plus the wound required to slay him. The overkill wounds are not directly linked to the means by which your chap kills him - the number of attacks does not matter.

And yes, a clever, underhanded means by which to win a combat :D

Nurgling Chieftain
04-04-2008, 03:12
There are two kinds of excess wounds: the kind caused by multiple-wound hits on models with less wounds (see page 31), and the kind caused by or against characters (see page 76). These two types are slightly different in some respects, but I see no reason why they wouldn't both be covered by the Overkill rule (as they're both "excess wounds", the exact terminology used), so I agree with everyone else: 6 total CR. (But I had to think about it. ;) )

Caboose123
04-04-2008, 13:08
Errr, i posted differently in the poll, but again i didnt open my BRB :D

You guys seem to have the right of it. Are the wounds multiplied even if the model in question is dead?

Festus
04-04-2008, 13:33
Hi

I disagree - strongly!

As we have more often than necessary said on this board, a model can only lose as many W by one attack as it has W in its profile. Against a W1 Model, each attack can only cause 1 W max.

Why should ths be any different in a challenge?

You may kill the champion 3 or 4 times over - if you have a character dealing that many attacks- and you can cause a lot of W on a character with 2 or 4 or even more W on his profile (as you can indeed then use the multipe W caused), but a champ with one W can only ever suffer as many W maximum as the oponent has attacks.

Festus

Atrahasis
04-04-2008, 14:21
While it's true that a multiple wound weapon cannot inflict more wounds than the target has on it's profile, in a challenge excess wounds are still counted "even though they are not actually inflicted".

Xirathnix
04-04-2008, 14:59
[QUOTE=Festus;2496360]Hi

I disagree - strongly!

As we have more often than necessary said on this board, a model can only lose as many W by one attack as it has W in its profile. Against a W1 Model, each attack can only cause 1 W max.

Why should ths be any different in a challenge?

Because of the overkill rule in challenges.

Nurgling Chieftain
04-04-2008, 16:50
As we have more often than necessary said on this board, a model can only lose as many W by one attack as it has W in its profile. Against a W1 Model, each attack can only cause 1 W max.
Such overkill wounds which are normally lost are specifically called "excess wounds". The Overkill rule for challenges specifically allows you to count "excess wounds" which would otherwise be discarded.

While the RaI could possibly have been that the Overkill was only supposed to mean the other kind of "excess wounds", the RaW is IMO quite clear that any and all "excess wounds" count up to the Overkill maximum of +5.

Mercules
04-04-2008, 18:45
Hi

I disagree - strongly!

As we have more often than necessary said on this board, a model can only lose as many W by one attack as it has W in its profile. Against a W1 Model, each attack can only cause 1 W max.

Why should ths be any different in a challenge?

You may kill the champion 3 or 4 times over - if you have a character dealing that many attacks- and you can cause a lot of W on a character with 2 or 4 or even more W on his profile (as you can indeed then use the multipe W caused), but a champ with one W can only ever suffer as many W maximum as the oponent has attacks.

Festus

But Overkill mentions wounds "scored" not wounds "suffered". 1 wound models can not "suffer" more wounds than they have, but more wounds could be "scored" against them.

GodHead
04-04-2008, 19:01
Yup. The model suffers 1 wound from the first failed save, and the second wound of the doubled wounds is scored as overkill. From there, each failed save will result in 0 wounds inflicted (because there are no wounds remaining on the enemy), but will result in 2 wounds scored as overkill.

Wolfmother
04-04-2008, 19:02
depends on the defention of the parana blade

im guessing that because the unit champ only has one wound the wounds can't be multiplied?

Joezombie
04-04-2008, 19:07
Ideed the overkill rule never comes into play. the Parana blade's ability does not "trigger" as the wound cannot be multiplied on a one wound model. So if the wound is not multiplied then it only scores a single wound for overkill

Mercules
04-04-2008, 20:32
Ideed the overkill rule never comes into play. the Parana blade's ability does not "trigger" as the wound cannot be multiplied on a one wound model. So if the wound is not multiplied then it only scores a single wound for overkill

How is it not multiplied?

Any wound inflicted by the Piranha Blade is multiplied into two wounds after Armour saves, etc.

It's inflicted, Multiplied, scored against the target, and then the model suffers only 1 wound because it can only suffer 1 wound max. That doesn't reduce the amount of wounds that can be scored against it, just the wounds that can be suffered.

Delicious Soy
04-04-2008, 22:05
Hi

I disagree - strongly!

As we have more often than necessary said on this board, a model can only lose as many W by one attack as it has W in its profile. Against a W1 Model, each attack can only cause 1 W max.

Why should ths be any different in a challenge?

You may kill the champion 3 or 4 times over - if you have a character dealing that many attacks- and you can cause a lot of W on a character with 2 or 4 or even more W on his profile (as you can indeed then use the multipe W caused), but a champ with one W can only ever suffer as many W maximum as the oponent has attacks.

FestusThat seems a little odd to have one rule for single wound characters and another for multi-wound characters.

Also, if it doesn't work on a single wound model does that mean a multi-wound character with one wound remaining fighting in a challenge can't be overkilled the same way he could if he had his starting wounds?

Finally, does this mean that in a challenge with a multi wound character you can only multiply wounds until there's one wound remaining? That seems a little silly that overkill becomes relient on normal attacks in that case when the character has been beaten to hell with a multiple wound item.

Tarax
05-04-2008, 10:44
I agree with Festus, you get 3 CR, 1 for the first wound to kill the champion and 2 more for the other wounds you caused. No multiple wounds caused here.

dragonmage
05-04-2008, 16:09
so what about if i killed a 2 wound model in a challenge with something that causes 3 wounds (i know random D3 but e.g. rending sword) would that 3rd wound be lost and not counted for overkill because the model only had 2 wounds to begin with?
seems sill to me that challenges should be different for 1 wound models and multi-wound models.

GodHead
05-04-2008, 17:30
Any extra wounds you cause to a model in a challenge by any source, whether it's by having a dozen attacks or a weapon that does 2, d3, d6 or any other number of wounds all count towards overkill.

This was previously dealt with in a 6th edition FAQ, and remains in the Direwolf FAQ, as the rules for challenges haven't changed significantly:

Q. Can you can use the multiplying affect of multiple wound weapons
to rack up a bunch of overkill on one wound champions (or characters
who are starting the combat round with one wound) in a challenge
situation?

To illustrate: In a challenge, can a Character with 3 Attacks on his
profile and wielding a multiple wound weapon gain +6 combat resolution
points from trashing a unit champion with only one wound on his
profile (or an enemy character starting the combat round with only
one wound)?

A. Number of Wounds doesn't matter, because a character with 3 wounds
reduced to one, or a champion starting with one wound is all the same
for purposes of multiple wound weapons in a challenge. When attacks
are allocated (when excess wounds may be wasted, unlike attacks
against rank and file) then each unsaved wound is multiplied.
In this case, you can tear the champion apart and get your +6 combat
resolution (1 Wound plus up to 5 overkill), even though he has only
one wound.

PirateTime
19-04-2008, 02:42
Slightly off topic, how would killing blow be resolved? Sorry if this has been resolved elsewhere, but if a character 'killing blows' a character twice before other wounds, would the victim's total wounds count towards overkill, since that's how many wounds a killing blow inflicts?