PDA

View Full Version : Gunless Empire



Avaron
05-04-2008, 06:14
I was wondering if its even remotely feasible to run a empire army with no black powder weapons..(or at most one cannon) and useing a large number of wizards?

My local store is haveing a tourny in a few months, and then a league after that probebly. Today i was looking over the armys already registerd and it basicly reads, chaos, chaos, dark elves, VC, orcs, chaos dwarves.

Poor good guys got nothing so far. it seems that the chaos oriented or "evil" armys are alot more popular with fantasy players.

I Enjoy haveing a strong magic phase and entertaining fluff to get behind though some of the over used ideas do sicken me. I also stick to human or human like armys, elves can be ok but lizard men not so much.

Empire: not a fan of guns and large model count is painful when your trying to do it on a budget and quickly.

Brenttonia: not a fan of Authorian legend which kinda kills any desire to do this army.

Dwarves: no magic (well not really)

Wood Elves: from all I have read there magic is not that impressive, they also seem to have become extrealy popular lately other than that they seem ok.

High Elves: the hats..really if it wasent for the dumb hats and self loveing pompous elven demenor I would probebly enjoy them.

Overt_Spy
05-04-2008, 06:28
Well, a gun-less Empire is a noble idea. If nothing else, you probably won't have any problems with people not wanting to play you, the same of which, cannot be said for gunline and steam tank Empire armies.

Not an Empire player, I can't offer you much insight, but if you are looking for low model count, a black powder-less Empire isn't going to be low model. It will call upon big blocks of infantry for combat resolution. Sure you can throw in Knights, and make them inner circle, but I'm not to sure about their effectiveness, in relation to point cost.

Although, for your theme, you could take the War Altar with an Arch Lector, a damn fine Lord for your army. Overall, I think it could work, especially with proper tweaks, and like I said, an Empire army without guns would be welcome with any and all players, so you could easily play test and make necessary modifications.

Another idea is, if your store allows it, mini swapping. If you say like the Bretonnian rules better, but dislike the mini range, you could use Empire knights, and the Empire troops to represent the different knights and peasants, and use wizards for damsels. So long as you make it obvious that you are using Bretonnian rules and are in no way changing them or modifying them, it shouldn't be a problem, as your just using Empire minis, but again depends on your store's policy.

Mags
05-04-2008, 06:31
As Empire, it's not necessarily a bad thing to use Crossbowmen over Handgunners for the sake of the extra 6'' range (at the sacrifice of Armour Piercing, of course). You hit the enemy on turn one if you have them in your sights, which can be a bit unnerving to some; however, if you look at many Empire lists, one cannon normally doesn't cut it. I take two cannons minimum, and some take two and some of the rare choices as well for extra firepower, just to make up for bad rolls or to crunch through tough enemies. As for mostly Wizards, that could pose a problem if the Wizard Lord is your general, as his relatively low Ld can cause havoc for your units.

edit: I didn't notice the "low model count" part. In my 2000pt list I bring along two detachments of five Handgunners, a unit of six Pistoliers, and two Great Cannons (in other words, I'm not extremely shooty, just there to widdle down/be an annoyance), and my model count is over 130. Unless you go for a mainly cavalry build, which in that case you're better off going Bretonnian as they do it more effectively.

Drogmir
05-04-2008, 07:47
Well not bringing gunpowder is really just shooting yourself in the foot.

I could see not using rifles but you NEED a least one cannon for the list not to be a fluffy but sucky list.

Also for Brets you could focus on their French side more than the Arthur side. I really wanted to make an English Army of the battle of Agincourt. Using Archers with spikes just like how they did it.

But yeah...... The 100 years war would be a great focus as opposed to Arthur myths.

Avaron
05-04-2008, 08:08
mostly I also want to avoid the brents sence my friend who I team up with on occasion is a big fan of them and will probebly do them once his work picks up again.

its sad in 40K some armys just jump out at me and yell MEMEMEMME and I relize I have to do them but it dosent seem to be the same way with fantasy if anything I have alot of trouble chooseing.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
05-04-2008, 12:11
well

you could play High Elves - just swap heads, and everything will be ok

Freakiq
05-04-2008, 12:32
Get some warrior priests, lots of flagellants and make a themed list.

DigbyWeapon
05-04-2008, 13:02
You could make a crossbow heavy army.
Make atleast 50% of you're "units" crossbows or bows.
Not as effective as guns because no armour peircing but you might even find that have the extra few inches might make it a whole different battle.
Having no cannons is a bit of a let down, but could just use a few mages for that. Nothings impossible.

Digby

theunwantedbeing
05-04-2008, 13:17
1 cannon doesnt do a whole lot.....certainly little enough to warrant not taking it!
Similarly handgunners arent the best thing ever, crossbowmen will still kill things, and at a greater range as well.

However, a no blackpowder army doesnt have to mean you simply make a gunline without blackpowder, thats rather lazy boring thinking that isnt going to get you any more games or any games that are particularly exciting either.

Taking warrior priests,flagellents and knights and big units with big detachments works fine as well.

You need to get over the idea that empire are just rubbish men that are nothing without their guns. As soon as you can at least half believe that you'll see that there's a damn sight more the empire army has to offer than just the gunline.

Master Kain
05-04-2008, 14:11
An empire army without blackpowder is entirely feasible, thankfully.

Basically there are two other builds possible.

-The "Crusade" list: Grand Master, WPs, lots of knights, maybe some pistoliers as well. The army's power comes from 2-3 units of inner circle knights aided by smaller, flanking knight units.

-The "Village Idiot" list: This is a horde list, basically, with some minor modifications. Empire infantry being what they are, big blocks of troops supported with detachments make them effective as a horde. However, these are flanked with pistoliers and vanilla knights, and maybe huntsmen, in order to limit enemy movemetn options and to counterattack. Admittedly though, this list does work better with a mortar or two...three:D

To be perfectly honest, I think that teh empire have become comparatively mundane against armies such as HE and VC, and this could be the reason for the lack of EMP players u mentioned (or did u?). Ok, IF you did:D

yabbadabba
05-04-2008, 14:21
If you don't take blck powder in terms of canons e.t.c. you do leave yourself with an uphill struggle against high T high W models.

However Kurt Helborg, Ludwig Schwarzehelm and a unit of about 10-13 Knights can sink alot of points and be a huge battering ram. Of course it is a one trick pony, easily targetted by Bolt throwers e.t.c. and not very manouverable. But it would look cracking!

gorenut
05-04-2008, 17:51
I flirted with the idea of a magic Empire army based on spells and religion. You can still take "cannons" but it'll require you to do some conversion work to make it fluffy. What I had for my theme was using mobile mage towers to be used as cannons. A small structure to protect the mage, while having a wizard of metal (crystal ball mage from the plastic set, just paint the ball metal) hurling iron spheres at the enemies. A misfire ruleswise = miscast fluffwise.

I guess the whole point of it all is that the beauty of this hobby is that you can be creative and come up with your own fluff. Don't get bogged down by what GW set down for the general gamer. I look at it as more of a guideline.

Mags
05-04-2008, 19:55
An empire army without blackpowder is entirely feasible, thankfully.

Basically there are two other builds possible.

-The "Crusade" list: Grand Master, WPs, lots of knights, maybe some pistoliers as well. The army's power comes from 2-3 units of inner circle knights aided by smaller, flanking knight units.

-The "Village Idiot" list: This is a horde list, basically, with some minor modifications. Empire infantry being what they are, big blocks of troops supported with detachments make them effective as a horde. However, these are flanked with pistoliers and vanilla knights, and maybe huntsmen, in order to limit enemy movemetn options and to counterattack. Admittedly though, this list does work better with a mortar or two...three:D

Taking Pistoliers in both those lists would null and void the "no black powder" rule he put in place.

redrum
05-04-2008, 20:15
I flirted with the idea of a magic Empire army based on spells and religion. You can still take "cannons" but it'll require you to do some conversion work to make it fluffy. What I had for my theme was using mobile mage towers to be used as cannons. A small structure to protect the mage, while having a wizard of metal (crystal ball mage from the plastic set, just paint the ball metal) hurling iron spheres at the enemies. A misfire ruleswise = miscast fluffwise.


Awesome idea, I love it. Very creative and I can visualize it perfectly. I bet that would look cool as hell on the battlefield.

ZeroTwentythree
06-04-2008, 23:11
I've been doing OK so far (about 6 games) with no shooting except two cannons. Just figure out an alternate way to deal with the big nasties and I think you'll be fine.

Kahadras
06-04-2008, 23:19
I think it could work but, as has already been pointed out, big monsters will cause you a problem if you decide to go without cannon. One way round this would be to take a monster yourself and kit out the Empire General riding it with some monster slaying equipment.

So an Empire general riding a Griffon
Plenty of 'block' units
Crossbowmen
Knights
Skirmishing archers to give you some march block/fanatic fodder
Greatswords
Flagellants

One thing an army like this would do is free up your special choices (most of which are usualy spent on cannon, morters, Pistoliers and Outriders) so you can go for some interesting builds like Greatsword heavy lists.

Kahadras

txamil
06-04-2008, 23:32
Are you sure a mortal chaos army isn't appealing? What kind of Cahos is already at the store?

Avaron
07-04-2008, 05:13
Well mortal chaos is my first though I even have some warriors..somewhere...I was just looking for other options. it seems that there is no one playing the "good Guys"

I may still just do Tzeentch chaos. heavy on the mystic turtle style because I would probebly enjoy that.

but ya..so many bad guys.

Mercules
07-04-2008, 05:21
You need to get over the idea that empire are just rubbish men that are nothing without their guns. As soon as you can at least half believe that you'll see that there's a damn sight more the empire army has to offer than just the gunline.

Detachments offer huge advantages. High toughness models can be overcome with heroes, charges from knights, or just run down after they break from the static CR and flanking that Blocks of Empire Troops with Detachments can get.

nasty_little_hobbit
07-04-2008, 11:47
Have you ever considered using a 'cult of ulric' list? No gunpowder, some unique troops available eg wolf kin and some very interesting rules for the characters.
Not sure if its a legal army but I believe the list is downloadable from gw website.

kroq'gar
07-04-2008, 11:57
I rarely run blackpowder.

I prefer mass infantry- a block of swordsmen backed up by two halberd detachments.

Take some magic, and warrior priests. Rely upon forcing your opponents movement and using your detachments as a panic free buffer.

scarletsquig
07-04-2008, 12:52
Take greatswords as your main blocks, supported by state troop detachments with flagellants and small units of knights on the flanks.

Alternatively, 3 big units of flagellants supported by arch lector with war altar... Get another 3 big units of state troops, stick a warrior priest in each one, load up on bound items. Support with about 4 small units of knights on the flanks, for winning any combats that the flagellants or unbreakable state troops have managed to tarpit.

Alternatively, a state troop horde army led by Karl Franz and BSB with imperial banner can be very hard to beat. Re-rollable ld 10 break tests, immune to psychology across 5 infantry blocks does the trick. A reasonably chunky unit of greatswords is essential for the unit with the important characters in it.

Tiamat
07-04-2008, 14:46
The gunless Empire army is actually quite viable. You have one of the widest ranges of troops in the game, so why some people limit themselves to black powder gunlines is a mystery to me. Tough elite infantry, rubbish expendable infantry, all ranges of cavalry, skirmishers, very competent characters and one of the widest range of spell casters available to anybody, eight different lores to choose from! One for every style and occaison. Nine if you include the Priests prayers.

Do empire have the crossbow? I reckon it's easily the equal of the handgun. Both are S4, move or shoot and though it doesn't have the armour piercing rule, by compensation you have a longer range, 30" to 24". Doesn't sound like much, but it can make the difference.

Yes, I reckon the gunless empire army is very cool. If only I wasn't already painting 2 armies and 1 fleet.

Luisjoey
07-04-2008, 19:21
I play gunless empire if others plays without magic phase :D