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x-esiv-4c
05-04-2008, 22:31
That's about it isn't it?
Most people feel that there is a large discontinuity about the potency of psychic powers between fluff and game mechanics. Now, I understand that many aspects of the game don't translate well but I think we can all appreciate how psychic abilities would make the game far more interesting.

Anyone who has read the Ravenor series understands that Alpha class psykers are essentially titans bound in flesh. I can see how this would throw the game balance off a smidge but every race in the game could benefit from having useful psykers.

This isn't a call back to 2nd edition where Uri Geller fires purple lightning from various orifices. Perhaps GW could release some new datasheets for Apocalypse with Alpha psykers.

Thoughts?

Lord Malorne
05-04-2008, 22:45
More likely they are trying to avoid a 40k 'magic phase' by not giving the powers there due attention. Besides GW could not handle all the dodgy rules mistakes they would end up making ;)

BajsArne
05-04-2008, 22:49
In that case I demand a Tau psychic auxilary!

Adra
05-04-2008, 22:51
sure datasheets sound good but then what makes you think there are no alpha psykers in the 40k game already? :)

Grimtuff
05-04-2008, 22:56
sure datasheets sound good but then what makes you think there are no alpha psychers in the 40k game already? :)

*Cough*Eldrad*cough*

*Cough*Arhiman*cough*

;)

Also guys it's spelt Psykers BTW.

Slaaneshi Slave
05-04-2008, 23:18
More likely they are trying to avoid a 40k 'magic phase' by not giving the powers there due attention. Besides GW could not handle all the dodgy rules mistakes they would end up making ;)

Considering 40k used to have a Psychic phase, I think you are perhap wrong on this count. ;)

Lord Malorne
05-04-2008, 23:19
In that case I demand a Tau psychic auxilary!

Nicassar...not on the table though :cries:.

Lord Malorne
05-04-2008, 23:25
Considering 40k used to have a Psychic phase, I think you are perhap wrong on this count. ;)

Not so, the operative word there is 'used to', the real question is could they feasibly bring it back? i for one would like to as you commonly read alot of tales of the powers they possess yet they have yet to translate to the board.

catbarf
06-04-2008, 00:13
yet they have yet to translate to the board.

They've existed. In 2nd Ed, psychic powers could obliterate entire armies- when very lucky and correctly used. This has led to the hyperbolic assumption that psychic powers were ludicrously overpowered, much like the notion of Herohammer in 2nd.

Brother xavier
06-04-2008, 00:22
GW did make a blank datasheet. Just talk to whoever yo want to verse and both come up with something cool. Datasheets aren't "official" as apocalypse is purely for fun. I don't think it was ever made to be competetive.

Bob5000
06-04-2008, 00:29
One of the things that would make me quit 40K completely is more emphasis on Psychic powers .
Magic is why I dont play Fantasy more often than I do , I find it too overpowering and dominant , and I dont want that in a Sci-Fi setting

Thrax
06-04-2008, 01:29
I couldn't agree with Bob5000 any more. There is just the right amount of psychic powers to make things interesting, but I'm all about forces clashing in mortal combat, not wizards. When so much of the game is centered on what the miniatures represent, why bother when some invisible force decides the day?

Lord Malorne
06-04-2008, 02:19
Very true, though i would like to see some games with a uber powerful psyker in it just to add some variety...though you could just make your own scenario for such a thing.

I guess this is not unlike the primarch's returning discussions, of how very powerful beings could shape the course of the future and change it for as some believe the worse.

Admiral Samuel Eden
06-04-2008, 04:44
40K is different from Fantasy, Magic doesn't fit the image and warp energy is well, cool but shouldn't become a massive game dynamic IMO.

==Me==
06-04-2008, 04:52
A psychic phase would be too much, imho, but I wouldn't mind psykers having a much more influential role in the game.

The Eldar and SM Codeces helped bring psykers to a level equal to more traditional, fighty characters. Orks got a new psyker, 'nids kept their fancy powers, etc. Though DA, BA, and Chaos appear to be steps in the opposite direction, as far as psykers are concerned.

I would like psychic powers to be usable in each phase and able to be countered by enemy psykers/daemons/gear or just the exceptionally strong-willed. The current psy hood (maybe add in some mind war) mechanic should be standard for psychic dueling, with modifiers and bonuses for certain psykers, gear, etc. But, not to leave armies without psykers boned, the effected unit's Ld can be used. This way we can bring in more variety to psykers as opposed to pretty much all psykers being walking artillery.

But that's just ==Me==

Ronin_eX
06-04-2008, 04:54
They've existed. In 2nd Ed, psychic powers could obliterate entire armies- when very lucky and correctly used. This has led to the hyperbolic assumption that psychic powers were ludicrously overpowered, much like the notion of Herohammer in 2nd.

More or less, I have yet to have my Librarian do more than kill a handful of models and be a big point sink. The psychic phase was fun and the randomness of it always made things interesting but since even those without a psyker could nullify powers (and a poor roll on the Winds of Chaos could make you inconsequential for a turn). The best use for psychics was the same as the best use for all other characters: Epic Showdown! Nothing cooler than a Psyker fighting a Daemon or other character while their troops stream around them.

I'd like to see a Psychic Phase return though not like the 2nd edition one (it could be a little clunky so moving to a dice based system would be faster). Though this is unlikely as they are trying to divorce WHFB and 40k even if it compromises the system. That is the only reason I can see for some of the arbitrary cuts made to 40k since 3rd came out.

1972lt1
06-04-2008, 05:21
*Cough*Eldrad*cough*

*Cough*Arhiman*cough*

;)

Also guys it's spelt Psykers BTW.

What about Eisenhorn or Ravenor. What level are they?

leonmallett
06-04-2008, 07:59
That's about it isn't it?
Most people feel that there is a large discontinuity about the potency of psychic powers between fluff and game mechanics. Now, I understand that many aspects of the game don't translate well but I think we can all appreciate how psychic abilities would make the game far more interesting.

Anyone who has read the Ravenor series understands that Alpha class psykers are essentially titans bound in flesh. I can see how this would throw the game balance off a smidge but every race in the game could benefit from having useful psykers.

This isn't a call back to 2nd edition where Uri Geller fires purple lightning from various orifices. Perhaps GW could release some new datasheets for Apocalypse with Alpha psykers.

Thoughts?

I don't know about most people believing there to be a disconnect between psychic fluff and mechanics, that seems a sweeping satement that can't be backed up. Perhaps more accurately some people feel there is a discrepency.

That said, I am with the crowd that would not want to see a return of the level of potency exhibited in 2nd edition. The solution of creating Apocalypse data sheets seems an appropriate way to address this.

More widely, this is no different than many discrepencies between mechanics and fluff (that Space Marines in the fluff evidently are more potent than their game rules indicate is just one example).

spaint2k
06-04-2008, 08:27
More or less, I have yet to have my Librarian do more than kill a handful of models and be a big point sink. The psychic phase was fun and the randomness of it always made things interesting but since even those without a psyker could nullify powers (and a poor roll on the Winds of Chaos could make you inconsequential for a turn). The best use for psychics was the same as the best use for all other characters: Epic Showdown! Nothing cooler than a Psyker fighting a Daemon or other character while their troops stream around them.

Over time as we played second edition, my gaming group used fewer and fewer psykers simply because they WERE such a point sink and never felt terribly exciting.

The feeling permeated my own thoughts on 40K so much that I haven't played with a psyker in my own force since 1997, although the new weirdboy MIGHT have me changing my mind.

Steve

Reaver83
06-04-2008, 08:59
I don't think a phase for psyc powers is needed, but they need to update the guard and inquisiton powers soon

Niibl
06-04-2008, 09:13
The magic psychic system from 2nd ed. was a clumsy affair and the psykers (allthough quite potent) real pointsinks, so we usually ignored it.
At that time Fantasy was using he same but with the last editions their system was toned down and simplyfied.
I think it could be adapted to 40k, maybe even without introducing a psychic-phase.

Fluffwise I see psykers as an essential part of 40k which should be represented properly on the battlefield as well.
No 2nd edition overkill, no alphas on fluffscale but useful with a mid-level killyness :o so they can not be ignored.
At the moment psykers (maybe eldar excluded) are so impotent that I wouldn't bother about them.
Just one more expensive hvy weapon which can even backfire and usually needs an army slot better used for something else.

Vaktathi
06-04-2008, 09:33
While I like the idea of Apocalypse alpha level psykers rivaling Titans, there would definitely need to be some Ld modifiers. Given that the majority of Psykers are Ld10, for them to get off such tremendous abilities with a greater than 90% success rate would be...silly.

I'd be cool with having Psykers that have titan level firepower or other such powers, I think it would be cool and add some very interesting things to the game, but not if its just Ld10 Vortex weapons, 10" AP2 blasts, or mass army Lash of Submission. Maybe if its Ld 7 or 8 after not taking any wounds (or even having to take saves, having bullets hitting you is not conducive to clear thinking), moving, shooting or fighting for two turns in a row (to summon psychic strength) or something similar.

destroyerlord
06-04-2008, 11:21
I don't think a return to the psyker phase would be practical, or add anything positive to the game. Making existing psychic units useful however (read: sanctioned psykers) would be a great benefit to the game. A variety of powers is what the game needs to add a bit more back to the game (IMO).
Powers that effect every phase of the game, not overwhelmingly, but in a useful way. As for for alpha plus, that should definitely be an apocalypse thing. A basic human alpha plus would probably start around 500 points?

leonmallett
06-04-2008, 11:41
I don't think a return to the psyker phase would be practical, or add anything positive to the game. Making existing psychic units useful however (read: sanctioned psykers) would be a great benefit to the game. A variety of powers is what the game needs to add a bit more back to the game (IMO).
Powers that effect every phase of the game, not overwhelmingly, but in a useful way. As for for alpha plus, that should definitely be an apocalypse thing. A basic human alpha plus would probably start around 500 points?


Compare the relative points cost of a Sanctioned Pysker to an Inquisitor, Librarian, Farseer or Sorceror, and they are about right in my view. They shouldn't be on the same level.

Grimtuff
06-04-2008, 15:06
What about Eisenhorn or Ravenor. What level are they?

Probably the same, but he said "in game".

The Apex Twins (http://uk.games-workshop.com/witchhunters/villainy-infamy/3/) are said to be beyond Alpha level.

Blue Orphen
06-04-2008, 15:37
What about Eisenhorn or Ravenor. What level are they?


According to the Ravenor novels, the order goes like this:

Alpha Plus
Alpha
Beta
Gamma
Delta
Epsilon

Eisenhorn barely registers on the scale of psyker power. I think he's somewhere around a Delta, but it's been a while since I read the novels. He describes himself as "moderately powerful".

Ravenor is somewhere around a gamma (plus). He has a few advantages that let him defeat psykers with more raw power - he has psy-boosting tech in his chair, and he is extensively trained. Apparently, skill trumps raw strength when it comes to psyker battles.