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View Full Version : WAR and DoW2 to help GW in total?



DonkeyMan
06-04-2008, 11:05
I was wondering now that Dawn of War 2 has been announced and also the pre-order on Warhammer Online started (and not to forget Blood Bowl and Mark of Chaos) things are looking better and better on the video gaming market for GW.

I'm sure that Dow2 will be a good game (Relic is very good with RTS) and I also trust (hope) that WAR will be good. If Blood Bowl and Mark of Chaos turn out to be good (or at least okay) we can finally hope that the crappy GW video games era is at it's end.

Now I don't want to talk about the games (otherwise I would have posted this in the Computer Games Forum), but lets just assume that DoW2 and WAR will be good successes and that BB and MoC will also sell well.

Will this help GW? Do you think that many people would move from the video gaming to wargaming? Or will this even hurt GW, because people will move from the wargaming to the videogaming?
I personally don't know anyone who moved from DoW to 40K, but I'm no longer an active GW wargamer (still keep an eye on it).
Anyone started with DoW first and then moved to 40K?

I definitely think it will be good PR for GW and might increase a bit of GW's reputation.

untimention
06-04-2008, 11:16
i think no one will move from things like DOW to the mini's however sales of items such as MOC and DOW help GW... and if there in trouble then this is exactly what they need.

Warhammer online i believe will show 'ok' sales in the first month... people like us and people in games workshops will buy it because of the ' warhammer factor '

then well what i hope is that the word spreads much like WOW did and then bang GW is happy and got some funds behind itself.

Cypher
06-04-2008, 11:59
Actually Im thinking WAR is going to launch quite strong. They're expecting to pre-sell all 115,000 Collector's Editions, and no doubt there'll be a good number of normal editions sold as well. Call it glass-half-full, but I think WAR will be big, if it's "good".

As for improving the "core business" - its unlikely, although WAR does have the advtange of being a "live" game, and the possibility for real-world cross promotion exists. I could very easily see bonus in-game items being promoted through GW mini or WD events.

Archaon
06-04-2008, 13:31
It may raise GWs profile a bit but i doubt it would have any measurable effect.. part of the DOW and WAR players are already tabletop gamers, the other part are just PC gamers and once they see that actual work would be involved in GW games (price, assembly, painting, terrain building) they'd stay away.

The rest might find it interesting enough to start with miniatures but i doubt the numbers would "save" GW.

Bookwrak
06-04-2008, 14:25
I started playing GW after playing DoW. I'd known about the games for a long time, and had known a couple people who'd played, but had never really had any ambition to start playing. DoW whetted my interest in the setting, and reading up on that got me interested in starting the game.

Billpete002
06-04-2008, 14:34
I'm glad the games are doing well and I welcome more games - I can't wait for the 40k MMORPG I haven't heard anything on it since it was announced.

Razarael
06-04-2008, 18:51
I got a friend into Dawn of War and subsequently he got into the tabletop game. So, it does happen, but most likely not frequently.

Grimbad
06-04-2008, 19:03
I'm glad the games are doing well and I welcome more games - I can't wait for the 40k MMORPG I haven't heard anything on it since it was announced.

Did they really specify RPG? I thought they just said MMO, which made me think it would probably be an MMOFPS. Which is what I am still hoping for.

grickherder
06-04-2008, 19:13
I don't think Warhammer Online will do much of anyting to crack the WoW nut.

redbaron998
06-04-2008, 19:39
I don't think Warhammer Online will do much of anyting to crack the WoW nut.

Well the WoW nut is already being cracked by time, its starting to get old and alot of the US audience has already left it. A large large chunk of the WoW players are chinese who are huge into PvE.

WAR already has the most beta applicants that any game has ever recieved, WAR is gonna be big (well in the running for Game of the year 08), the competition is really more between WAR and Age of Conan, but since AOC is really more PvE and custimazation there wont be to much crossover as WAR is more PvP and RvR.

There is a reason WOW is starting to be known as Waiting On Warhammer :D

So Yes I think WAR, DOW 2 and the other games will do great things for GW, Huge impacts and save the company? No that is in the hands of GW and if they can stop making stupid business decisions. But it will definetly get the name of the TT game out there, and if nothing else GW will be recieving some royalties on the games themselves.

While things like PC Gaming, Black Library and such all help GW. Its the TT sales that are its heart. Without those it doesnt matter how everything else does

Yayale
06-04-2008, 19:49
since when has gamesworkshop been in money trouble? as far as I was aware they are raking it in. Also games workshop will be recieving more than some royalties on the games, theyre probably getting a huge percentage of profits as it is their name which is selling a lot of the copies. Most people who don't collect warhammer don't buy games on it, it's us nerdy folk who buy them.

TheMav80
06-04-2008, 19:58
I actually know three people who started playing 40K because of DoW. Me and two of my friends. We now play both 40K and Fantasy. We each have at least two armies in each plus some of the standard "armies we sort of halfway started".

So it happens.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
06-04-2008, 20:02
I don't think Warhammer Online will do much of anyting to crack the WoW nut.

I think it will.

It's a big old Fantasy name, and has a fully developed world already to go (well, barring the East and the South. But apart from that, fully developed).

I can see people getting quite frenzied for the opening up of new areas...

grickherder
06-04-2008, 20:11
That's a good point about how old WoW is getting. It certainly doesn't have the next-gen graphics like it did for about 10 minutes when it first came out.

There are definitely cross over cases between DoW and 40k. I think they could have been a bit more intentional about it and simply included "Games Workshop - World of Hobby Games" minifliers in each box.

Perhaps delays and waiting related to Warhammer Online will be worthwhile in the long run. Perhaps when GW first started working with developers (and having their share of problems) a couple years back, it was too early anyway.

RobC
06-04-2008, 22:28
since when has gamesworkshop been in money trouble? as far as I was aware they are raking it in.They made a loss in their most recent financial report. Admittedly, that loss was a direct result of the costs of redundancies, but if they're reducing their staff levels it tends to suggest that profits aren't too healthy.

Turnover is high, but actual profit? Not raking it in by any means.

Ozorik
06-04-2008, 22:50
think it will.

It's a big old Fantasy name, and has a fully developed world already to go (well, barring the East and the South. But apart from that, fully developed).


I dont think that it will.

WoW has got a good few years left in it before it truely starts to implode. Subscriptions are still increasing as far as I am aware.

WAR just doesnt look good enough to truely challenge WoW.

If a game was measured on background alone then lord of the rings online would win. Many more people are aware of middle earth than the warhammer world.

redbaron998
06-04-2008, 23:08
I dont think that it will.

WoW has got a good few years left in it before it truely starts to implode. Subscriptions are still increasing as far as I am aware.

Acutally its drawing about even now, many more people are joining (almost all from the Asia) but about the same # are leaving (US and Euro)

WAR just doesnt look good enough to truely challenge WoW.

...are you serious?

If a game was measured on background alone then lord of the rings online would win. Many more people are aware of middle earth than the warhammer world.

See Above

Aware of it yes, that doesnt mean its any better. How many people were aware of the Warcraft background before WoW? How many people knew what a Space Marine was before DOW (that didnt play TT)

Awarness goes up and down drastically.

As as for my above comment, WAR really is a different Genre (in the MMO market) than WoW is.

WoW is a PvE game with some tack on PvP and no RvR. WAR is designed ground up to be RvR and PvP (with PvE playing a supporitng role) from the makers of the current king of PvP (DAOC)

I remember back in High school two years ago people would be talking about WoW in the hallways and alot of people had the manualls and such reading in class (not even the nerds all the time)

Now I only know a single person who still players.

WoW subscriptions are staying afloat, but are moving demographically drastically. The American and Euro Market (that is now much larger due to being opened up to the MMO world by WoW) is now looking to fill that goal.

PvE players will probably go to AoC, PvP will go to WAR. (This is assuming both games are succsesful)

(And before anyone says it im not a WAR fanboy, I just know alot about it cause I have been following it for quite some time. They could release WAR today and it be a good game, the fact that even with all they have they still have 6 months to polish is a indication of where it will be.)

sheck2
07-04-2008, 00:04
WAR has potential to be as popular as WOW. Is it good enough to catch WOW in a few years? OF course not...give the game five years and see where it is.

Will it pull computer gamers into playing fantasy? I doubt it. Some spontaneous small buying, but once they realize they need to assemble and paint several hundred models...all the enthusiasm will fade.

Now if GW could release a slick and sexy skirmish game (low count model game)...maybe they could pull people over. (Hearing a loud crash of thundering responses) I play Mordheim and love it, but it's not sleek and sexy. Not that it could not be, but they'd need to re-package and update it.

Ozorik
07-04-2008, 10:26
the makers of the current king of PvP (DAOC)


As long as they get the balance right this time.....Im not holding my breath.


...are you serious?


Yes. I dont mean graphically of course. What I have read of the game has killed my interested in it. It has some good features, I may even play it for a while, but it wont be my MMO of choice.


Aware of it yes, that doesnt mean its any better

That wasnt my point. MDG was suggesting that since Warhammer is a well known background it will have the edge on WoW. LOTRO has an even more well known background (as well as being a good MMO) and it hasnt beaten WoW.

Bah, your just a WAR fanboy.


:)

DragonPup
07-04-2008, 14:36
i think no one will move from things like DOW to the mini's however sales of items such as MOC and DOW help GW... and if there in trouble then this is exactly what they need.

I started 40k(and eventually Fantasy) because of DoW. :p

The_Outsider
07-04-2008, 15:08
I started 40k(and eventually Fantasy) because of DoW. :p

So did many people - but in the grand scheme of things you are in the minority.

Llew
07-04-2008, 15:11
See Above

As as for my above comment, WAR really is a different Genre (in the MMO market) than WoW is.

WoW is a PvE game with some tack on PvP and no RvR. WAR is designed ground up to be RvR and PvP (with PvE playing a supporitng role) from the makers of the current king of PvP (DAOC)




Actually, having played DAoC years ago, the PvE component of WoW is developed similarly. There are "realm" based events that go on daily and offer benefits to the winning side.

The various battlegrounds in WoW are as RvR as it comes, even if they don't frequently feature the huge numbers that DAoC does. (And, in my experience, those huge numbers mostly just made me lag and not be able to play effectively.)

Add to that the fact that the next WoW expansion is due to add siege machinery, and you've got the potential for a robust RvR world. I don't see that WAR is offering anything dramatic and new.

WAR should have good sales out of the box, but I don't see anything moving WoW off the block anytime soon. They keep developing the game and making it a fun experience for hardcore players, PvP fiends and ultra-casual types.


Oh...and to the guy who thought WoW *ever* had cutting edge graphics? You weren't paying attention. It never did. That was actually a big selling point. It used low-poly models that could run on a variety of machines while keeping a highly-stylized look. It doesn't attempt to be a realistic engine, like EQ2 or just about any other MMORPG. That may, in fact, be one of it's greatest strengths, since it is playable without a monster PC.

thearchiver
08-04-2008, 04:18
The age of WOW thou can still work in its advantage, I cant wait to see WAR and see and interact with locations that I already know about, then to be able to do that I need to give up my WOW high end raiding main which right now is up to 250 days played (that is hes been online in game for 250 days) or $168,000 if I played hm at work, thats a big investment.

So while the casual market if more free to jump mmo's WAR does have to offer a lot more to get the hardcore player to jump games becuase they have invested a lot more time in the game to get where they are now, and I see that has the hurdle that many other WOW killer mmos have failed and since died off.

starlight
08-04-2008, 05:08
You don't *invest* time in video games, you spend it. :p


Will video games help GW? Of course. Will they *save* GW. No. :( Only good choices by GW's senior management can do that. Given their record over the last decade...:(

Calgacus
08-04-2008, 09:54
Isn't there a danger that people will get their warhammer "fix" online rather than by buying the models and playing the table top games?

DonkeyMan
08-04-2008, 13:53
Thanks for all the feedback.

On regards to the games successes. Well, WAR doesn't need to beat WoW to be a success. If they reach more then 500K that's already a big success (and will be profitable). Everything over 1 million will be realy realy great.
Good example would be LotrO and CoH/CoV. Not the WoW killer but a nice success (even though it didn't reach 300K). I always wonder why people think that they need millions of subscribers to be a success.
Something like WoW wont happen again. There where several factors that made it so popular and it's going to stay there for quite a while.
Neither will DoW2 beat Starcraft2. Will be the same like DoW compared to Starcraft. While DoW in my eyes more fun to watch regarding balance and mass apeal Starcraft is the winner.
Damn it, I'm talking about the games now.

Back On topic:
Well, I personally see some good changes from GW side recently and hope these are not coming too late.
In my eyes successful Games and the fact that GW is changing some of their policies, can help improve GW's image (which isn't too good right now). GW behaved far too long like Microsoft, but unlike Microsoft, they can't really force wargamers to play with GW Miniatures.

To improve the image further, GW should be looking into the possibility to cooperate even more with Fantasy Flight Games for realising other non core games.

So overall I agree with you guys. It won't bring big bucks to GW (it's nice to see the occasional DoW Gamer get into wargaming), but improving the image counts for something.
Look at PP. PP minis aren't really that much cheaper, but everyone (well the majority) look positivly at PP (granted, they also to tend to make the better decicions at the moment) and there isn't near as much bithing on the PP Forum then it was on GW forum, when they where still around.

GW simply needs to improve their image to survive.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
08-04-2008, 18:56
With regards to satisfaction comparissons between companies.

Try to please 10 people, and 1 might feel slightly hard done by, but be happy you tried.

Try to please 1,000 people, and there will be a small percentage really quite upset, but will lack the voice to really make themselves heard.

Try to please 100,000 people, and well, I hope you see where this is going.

Yayale
08-04-2008, 19:49
ok then to many funky words like RnR for me to follow lol so yeh

Archaon
08-04-2008, 20:08
You don't *invest* time in video games, you spend it. :p
(

Actually if you want to be in the top tiers of any game playing a game soon changes to working the game, i.e. training.

At this point you are investing time into a game and concerning pro-players even gain real benefits, i.e. money from it.

DonkeyMan
08-04-2008, 21:12
With regards to satisfaction comparissons between companies.

Try to please 10 people, and 1 might feel slightly hard done by, but be happy you tried.

Try to please 1,000 people, and there will be a small percentage really quite upset, but will lack the voice to really make themselves heard.

Try to please 100,000 people, and well, I hope you see where this is going.

I know what you mean, but PP has grown quite large and in my eyes the comparison between GW and PP is valid.
No one can deny that the reputation PP has is much better then the GW one.
One of the big advantages for PP is, that it's still considered a newcomer and that it brings fresh winds to wargaming (and it sure did).
While GW reputation i much more worse then they actually deserve. Many people have forgotten the good sides on GW (yes there are good sides) and GW should try to get this back into the peoples minds.
Good games help IMHO, but other more important things, that have bigger influx on wargaming needs to be done.

TheMav80
09-04-2008, 02:13
The biggest problem for WaR will be that Wrath of the Liche King should be coming out right around the same time. So they probably won't pull in as many subscribers as they would otherwise.

I still plan to jump to WaR anyway (already have my CE ordered), but I'm sure there are those on the fence that will be persuaded to stay for the extra content. I don't think it is a coincidence that the new WoW expansion will feature sieges and war machines for new PvP combat. Something that Mythic has been doing since Dark Age of Camelot many many years ago.

TheMav80
09-04-2008, 02:15
Isn't there a danger that people will get their warhammer "fix" online rather than by buying the models and playing the table top games?

Two totally different games for one thing. WaR is an RPG. Not a strategy game. All the races aren't even represented. I seriously doubt Dawn of War took people away from playing 40K on the table top. Quite the opposite in fact. I know it added to the amount of people playing on the table top.

TheMav80
09-04-2008, 02:18
The age of WOW thou can still work in its advantage, I cant wait to see WAR and see and interact with locations that I already know about, then to be able to do that I need to give up my WOW high end raiding main which right now is up to 250 days played (that is hes been online in game for 250 days) or $168,000 if I played hm at work, thats a big investment.

So while the casual market if more free to jump mmo's WAR does have to offer a lot more to get the hardcore player to jump games becuase they have invested a lot more time in the game to get where they are now, and I see that has the hurdle that many other WOW killer mmos have failed and since died off.

I actually disagree here. I think your more hardcore gamer are more willing to jump from one game to the next. WoW has a very large population of casual gamers who, at this point, probably know nothing about an other MMO on the market.

On the other hand, for your hardcore gamer, WoW is probably not their first MMO and it sure won't be the last. Many of them have probably been playing since EQ and Ultima. They have moved from one game to the next ever since. Seeking the next great thing. I'm sure some of them even stopped WoW for a while to dally in LotR for example.

Hellebore
09-04-2008, 03:25
Meh, in my opinion WoW is the Star Wars or Lord of the Rings of MMOs. The first 'mainstream' event.

Star Wars blew everyone away because it was new, not because it was good. Star Wars released now as a new film would not elicit the same reaction because it would be 'just' another sci fi movie.

Anything that comes first always has a disproportionately high success rate because the fanbase isn't divided between 3 billion different options. In the 50s if you were going to be a fan of fantasy you were almost guaranteed to be a LotR fan. Not because it was necessarily good or sublimely perfect, but simply because it was THE ONLY CHOICE.

I doubt you will see anything eclipsing WoW's success because it opened up the MMO market so now EVERYONE is in on it. You split the fanbase between all those different MMOs and you won't get a single one with a massive player level.

I know there were plenty of MMOs before WoW, but it was mainstreamed, 'Big Thing'.

You see the same with Elvis, or the Beatles. When there is little choice, EVERYONE jumps on the bandwagon. When you provide a huge variety of choices then personal taste comes into play over the 'this or nothing' dichotomy.



Back on topic, if GW didn't work into the WAR license a royalty system then they are stupid. WAR should be continually providing them an income rather than a one off payment.

Hellebore

Tanus
10-04-2008, 05:44
DoW has gone a long way towards bringing 40k into the mainstream. We've had a few people cross over into the minis from the video game.

Wolf Scout Ewan
10-04-2008, 15:00
Back in the 90's GW's policy on computer games was this :

Fine as long as they dont detract from the main hobby.

Or in other words:

Fine as long as people keep buying figures and games.

Thats why you never saw a full Space Marine list in DoW. I expect DoW2 will be very much the same, same game but with better graphics.
There are quite a few posters here who have come from DoW to the main hobby... and thier input is appreciated!