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Treadhead_1st
06-04-2008, 10:33
My view of the Bretonnians is that the Knights are all well and powerful, but can be easily overwhelmed by superior numbers, and sometimes having a couple of blocks of Infantry to provide both rank support and a general distraction to the Knights is rather useful.

Originally I had an Arthurian theme going, and I'd like to keep this a little, but am angling more toward an 'Army of the King' - Lords from different Duchies leading their troops to battle under the unified banner of the King.

Here's the list as it is now, please tell me what you think of it.

Lords

Bretonnian Lord [“King Arthur”]: Sword of the Quest, Shield, Insignia of the Quest, Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Questing Vow & Virtue of Discipline.
241

Heroes

Bretonnian Paladin [BSB]: Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Knight's Vow & Virtue of Empathy.
84

Bretonnian Paladin [Monster-Slayer]: Lance, Enchanted Shield, Royal Pegasus, Knight's Vow & Virtue of Heroism.
164

Damsel of the Lady: Level 2, Dispel Scroll & Chalice of Malfleur.
150

Damsel of the Lady: Level 2, Dispel Scroll & Power Stone.
155

Core

24 Men-At-Arms: Pole Weapons, Full Command.
147

24 Men-At-Arms: Pole Weapons, Full Command.
147

10 Peasant Bowmen: Braziers.
65

10 Peasant Bowmen: Braziers.
65

9 Knights of the Realm: Full Command.
240

6 Knights of the Realm: Gallant & Musician.
152

6 Knights of the Realm: Gallant & Musician.
152

Special

5 Questing Knights: Paragon.
140

Rare

Field Trebuchet.
90

1992 (8 remaining)

99 Models + 1 Artillery

The basic plan:

Damsels go in with the M@A. The Trebuchet, M@A, Bowmen and BSB hold one corner of my line. This is essentially an anchor about which I can wheel a battle line (so one flank stays put, the fast knights wheel).

The 9-Man KOTR is backed up by both 6-Man units. They form a central wedge to hit the enemy hard & fast. Possibly backed up by the Questing Knights who are joined by the Lord.

On the extreme flank is the Pegasus Paladin, whose job is to hunt down enemy monsters (numerous High Elf Dragons, soon-to-be Hydras etc). He may be supported by the Questing Knights, depending on enemy force.


A variant is to put the Peasant units in the centre, and wheel each flank up & around 'buffalo horns' style.


So, what do you think about the army then?

One thing I am unsure on is the Lord's equipment - all I know is that I want my leader packing a Sword [for modelling & fluff purposes].

Any comments would be really appreciated!

Lantern
06-04-2008, 20:56
I'll be honest, I like the army, and I cant see any real faults with it. I would reconsider using the Questing Knights in units of 5 (even 1 more model gives you a rank bonus),but I am assuming you have the starter set of QK and will be placing the general with with them to make up the numbers.
A suggestion I made in another post for another Bretonnian army though was to guve one of the mages the Prayer Icon of Quenelles and to place her with one of the Men-At-Arms units. With a 5+ save, and a 5+ or 6+ ward save, they will be protecting your flanks a lot longer (you could even just use a shield and close combat weapon in close combat, giving them a 4+save in addition to the ward - depends on whats attacking you).

Treadhead_1st
06-04-2008, 23:40
The Knights are joined by the Lord, indeed.

The Prayer Icon is VERY tempting, but for now I have gone for more magical defence. I've re-worked the list a tiny bit, and have got some more shiny toys + a useful flanking unit, at a cost of 10 peasants.


Please tell me if you think it is an improvement or is worse than the above list. Some notes are included within the list, marked by a *

Lords

Bretonnian Lord: Birth-Sword of Carcassonne, Gauntlet of the Duel, Armour of Agilulf, Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Questing Vow & Virtue of Confidence.
238
*Designed to take on enemy characters, but can still cut through RnF as needed*

Heroes

Bretonnian Paladin (BSB): Biting Blade, Barded Bretonnian Warhorse, Virtue of Empathy.
94
*Cheap, as people seem to be fixated about taking the banner. blade for more hitty-ness*

Bretonnian Paladin (Monster-Slayer): Morning Star, Enchanted Shield, Royal Pegasus & Virtue of Heroism.
162
*Morning Star purely to save points over lance [am 1 short to afford a Lance]. Does damage to monsters via KB, so the extra 1 point of Str a lance provides is less needed*

Damsel of the Lady: Level 2 & Silver Mirror.
145
*Can seriously cramp Elf/Empire magic phases via the Mirror. Expensive, Lvl 3/4 characters can go "splat" easily*

Damsel of the Lady: Level 2, Dispel Scroll & Chalice of Malfleur.
150
*Provides more magic defence. Chalice for defence past first turn.*

Core

19 Men-At-Arms: Pole Weapons, Full Command.
122

19 Men-At-Arms: Pole Weapons, Full Command.
122

15 Peasant Bowmen: Braziers & Standard Bearer.
105
*Deploy 2 ranks, 10 in first 5 in second. Re-form when Combat is approaching [I realise I loose the stakes the second I do this] to get +3 Combat Res off the bat. The Peasant's Duty rule for Banners is nice and dandy, so not a waste as it would be for other armies*

9 Knights of the Realm: Full Command.
240

6 Knights of the Realm: Gallant & Musician.
152

6 Knights of the Realm: Gallant & Musician.
152

Special

5 Questing Knights: Paragon.
140
*General's bodyguard. Also can aid other Knights in protracted combats [ie vs Undead]

5 Mounted Yeomen: Shields & Musician.
87

Rare

Field Trebuchet.
90

1999 points (1 left over)

89 Models + 1 Artillery team.

Same idea as before.

This time, however, the Yeomen are around to support the Pegasus Paladin, leaving the Questers (and importantly the Lord) free to support the "Lance" of Lances (granting good leadership to charge Fear-causers etc).

Oh, and a quick word about my Magic Phase tactics. Normally I'll choose Beasts, then I'll cast Bears Anger asap, and hope the enemy forgets about it. After that I plink away with whatever else I rolled, then when CC rolls around the Mage adds some hitty-ness to the Peasants. If I go for Life then I'll hope to use Mistress of the Marsh to slow enemy units down, then run them down with the BSB [providing it's safe to do so, if not then the M@A will pursue]. Should win most combats with 20 peasants to the front, and another to the side, plus a Paladin laying in where possible.


So what do you think - better or worse than the last list?

Lantern
06-04-2008, 23:54
Well, again, the list seems fine, but my only suggestion now is to get the BSB on a horse (losing the virtue of empathy and the biting blade would pay for this) as its the knights who will be in combat, and thus they will most likely be the ones who need break test re-rolls or +1 CR. The Mages should bolster the peasant units leadership enough that you dont need to leave behind a knight to babysit. But other than that, I may be using this list tomorrow myself :)

Treadhead_1st
06-04-2008, 23:58
BSB already has a horse ;)

I always take it for the boosted Armour Save. As I said, most people try to take him out to nab the extra VPs.


Will see where the BSB is needed most - he can fit in various places within my plan depending on how things go game wise. The "lance of Lances" seems to grant adequate protection, even to characters not in units (blocks LOS to front & sides, if positioned correctly) - though will most likely be in a unit for added protection.

Necromancer2
07-04-2008, 19:25
but whats the point of the Banner of Empathy??? Doesn't that allow the paladin to be on foot (or is an on foot only banner)???

Donga666
07-04-2008, 20:28
BSB already has a horse ;)

I always take it for the boosted Armour Save. As I said, most people try to take him out to nab the extra VPs.
.

No, you have to pay for the horse (14 points from memory), and virtue of Empathy is 10 points. So why give a mounted BSB that virtue? I know you get an extension on the leadership, but that could be got around with smart deployment. Save the points, they are better spent elsewhere.

Having said that I like the army set up, the characters are a little odd but the rest is very solid looking. Give the 'Monster hunter' Grail Vow so he is immune from Psychology, because a monster hunter is no use if he fails a terror/fear test and stands there looking foolish! +morning star is a strange choice (+1 S), you need a good weapon for the role LANCE!! (+2 S).

Loose the power stone on the damsel, another dispel scroll is FAR more usefull. Silver mirror is 40 points, so you cant have a scroll as well. 50pt max. Bretonnian offensive magic is not all that good!

Drop the peasent archers to 10 and make them skirmishers, alot more useful (less to paint as well :D) That should save a few points.

Treadhead_1st
07-04-2008, 21:06
@ Necromancer2/Donga666

Empathy to boost the range of the Ld "zone" - it comes from playing Guard in 40K, I like having a far reach to improve the Ld of knights, should the BSB need to run away a little bit, or get out of LOS of a nasty unit, etc. 6" doesn't get that far, not with multiple units (2 M@A, Archers and Trebuchet) to cover. 12" should just about be OK, especially with snazzy deployment. As I said, people like to kill the BSB, so I have to kep moving him out of LOS/charge range, yet still be able to provide a bonus to the Peasants.

Empathy is a Vow, not a Banner, so anyone can take it. The Knight CAN be fielded afoot, but doesn't HAVE to be.

@ Donga666

I meant I've already PAID for said warhorse. It's written right there in the army list. Basic cost of Paladin + free BSB upgrade + Horse + Blade + Vow = 94pts.


I already explained the Morning Star - it's because I was short a single point for the Lance, and took something to boost my strength (he relies on Killing Blow, which is irrelevant of Strength, to kill the Monsters - the Star is just back-up, as I couldn't afford the Lance).

Will look into taking Grail Vow if I can though. Valid point about a failed Terror/Fear test.


I don't have Silver Mirror AND Dispel Scroll - Silver Mirror on one, Dispel Scroll & Chalice on the other (latest list).

It appears you've taken elements from first list and second - (in the first list I've got the Power Stone and Dispel Scroll - went for the Chalice for better magic defence in later turns over the Power Stone or a second Scroll - but I don't have the Mirror in that list...).

Offensive Magic isn't too bad - not much will get through, I grant you, but thanks to the 2 lores available people might not see them worth dispelling (and I should have more Power Dice than the average [balanced] army's Dispel Dice - ok, Tzeentch or Magic-Elves will have more, but there I'm going to loose the Magic Phase, as that's what they're geared to do), or I there's always the chance of Irresistible Force...and I'm hoping to use Paladin-on-Pegasus and Mounted Yeomen to try to pick off Wizards (providing the Paladin isn't too busy, of course). Typically people field Scroll Caddies, which will go down easy enough (Vampires won't, but they're a different kettle of [dead & smoked] fish after all)

I guess it's not offensive per se as there are few direct damage spells, but it's more 'offensive' in that it would support my offensive elements.


Will consider reducing the Archers, just because I need points. I only took 15 so I could have an Archer unit that should beat Fast Cav (2 ranks, Banner, Hill) that doesn't cost the earth, or give away extra VP (no 'capture banner' bonus) - and that the Batallion box contains 16 Archers.

warhawk95
08-04-2008, 00:40
I would drop the silver mirror in replace of scrolls personally and give the other mage 1 scroll and chalice aswell, and drop the lvl as well. Right now you have 4DD 2 scrolls (one being the mirror). that will last you atleast 2 turns, which might be enough to get you into CC but might not. With the extra scroll you give your self one more turn (hopefully) to get the right charges set up. Also maybe drop a unit of KotR for some errants with errantry banner. Sure the test sucks but I put my general in there and that is alot of S6 attacks at one, will break most enemies.

Other than that it is fine.

Donga666
08-04-2008, 11:59
@ Necromancer2/Donga666

Empathy to boost the range of the Ld "zone" - it comes from playing Guard in 40K, I like having a far reach to improve the Ld of knights, should the BSB need to run away a little bit, or get out of LOS of a nasty unit, etc. 6" doesn't get that far, not with multiple units (2 M@A, Archers and Trebuchet) to cover. 12" should just about be OK, especially with snazzy deployment. As I said, people like to kill the BSB, so I have to kep moving him out of LOS/charge range, yet still be able to provide a bonus to the Peasants..

That sounds too much like 40k thinking to me, in order to be effective a character has to be where the fighting is. If he is running from regiment to regiment he runs a greater risk of being caught in the open (there are ALOT of armies that lve characters out in the open). You can't cover everything unless you are static, my Treb is designed to have 2 maybe 3 rounds of firing then it dies/runs away etc etc....


I meant I've already PAID for said warhorse. It's written right there in the army list. Basic cost of Paladin + free BSB upgrade + Horse + Blade + Vow = 94pts...

Sorry my mistake but i think it is a waste of points. I have a Paladin on foot with enchanted shield and sword of might that is realy useful and more importantly, expendable. He stays with M@A's accepts challenges and fights the good fight but he keeps the line together.


I already explained the Morning Star - it's because I was short a single point for the Lance, and took something to boost my strength (he relies on Killing Blow, which is irrelevant of Strength, to kill the Monsters - the Star is just back-up, as I couldn't afford the Lance). ..

Try and avoid relying on the roll of a 6 to hit, it becomes rarer than you think (especially when you need it). You will kill more mosters by knocking wounds off it, beating it, then running it down!


Offensive Magic isn't too bad - ..

No it sucks, law of life is quite good for disruption spells, not much else. Read 'Magic 101' which is sticky at the top of this forum.

Treadhead_1st
08-04-2008, 16:52
My point was not that the Paladin jumps BETWEEN units, but rather is situated so that the radius covers ALL the units. As an enemy unit approaches, he gallops out of the charge arc of said enemy unit, so they can't take him on easily. Being static wouldn't be too much of an issue, as he would be sitting with 2 units of M@A, the Damsels, the Trebuchet and the Archers - a fair investment of points that I don't want legging it off the field too easily. I feel if I intend him to be static, and is geared for that role, it won't be too costly.

Since my Empathy Paladin is also the BSB [thanks to the 4-'regular'-Character limit of the army list] 1) I am unsure if he can carry the Enchanted Shield (as he can't take a normal shield, etc), and 2) I don't know if it will be worth it, as he can be easily picked on by enemy units (at least the Horse can out-run foot units) - who, round my way, like killing the BSB. 3) he can never be expendable, due to the "Capture Banner" bonus.

On Foot could be an option to shave points though. I just like having the "Bravely he fled" option [but before the enemy arrives so that I don't loose the Blessing]


If I can skimp enough points (reducing the Archers) I will certainly take a Lance on the Pegasus Paladin. The extra strength is useful. And the Grail Vow, just so I don't fail a Fear/Terror test at an inopportune moment.


I like both Beasts and Life lores, and find them to be rather potent - use them rather often with my High Elves (multiple mages, one uses High Magic, other alternates between Lores depending on what I feel like). Different playstyles I guess.

Casting is the only issue with Bretonnians - unless a Prophetess or the Fey Enchantress are included alongside a couple of Damsels. I wanted a choppy Lord though. I don't count on getting too many spells off, I just have a plan for if I can [lite-magic enemy, or I've killed the Mages] :)

Treadhead_1st
10-04-2008, 10:04
I've just had a thought - what IS the best weapon for a Pegasus-Mounted Paladin?

Given the Mount can easily go down, and he needs the Str. boost, the Lance is possibly not as effective (can't be used afoot).

So that leaves a Hand-Weapon, a Flail or a Great Weapon (with correct Vow).

GW give the same boost as a Flail while mounted, is better when afoot and has a permanent boost to strength. But goes last, and prevents the use of a shield, limiting armour afoot.

The Flail increases strength and can still be combined with a shield, plus doesn't "always strike last", but the Str bonus is only in the first round of combat (whether charging or charged).

Lance provides good strength on the charge, but is useless afoot (isn't mentioned under Infantry weapons, so I assume it can't be used - funny image if it can, however).


What do you think he should take?

Donga666
10-04-2008, 13:23
I always give mine Grail Vow, Lance and Virtue of the Joust as a bit of an all comers character.

Replace with Wyrm Lance when facing hords/flamable/trolls

Either way a lance, I never work on protracted combambats or getting the peggy killed.