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Easy E
12-10-2005, 05:01
I was reading a thread about changing the Fantasy background, and I decided to blatantly steal it for the 40K forum.

If you were given creative control over the 40K background, what would you change about it?

I would bring back the Brainboyz and the story of the Blood Axez once being the dominant clan until the Big Party caused their overthrow. I would remove Orks from the War in Heaven.

I would also change the Blood Angels away from their berserkers in training and back towards humanities stalwart defenders, lovers of the fine arts, and looked upon as near saints, but with a curse of madness that haunts them.

I would add alot more Xeno Empires, another Human/Abhuman Realm, and Mercenary Groups to the background.

I would focus on the corrupting power of Chaos as more of a threat than that of the Chaos Marines themselves. More Chaos Guard, Chaos Mechanicus, and a true Chaos Cult list.

Genestealer, Warp Entity, Alien, and Chaos Cults for all!

Anyone else?

Anything you guys would change?

violenceha
12-10-2005, 05:13
well you pretty much took them all!
i'd actually flesh more of it out, the only thing i really hate is all this "mystery", it does not make it more interesting!

Colonel Kebab
12-10-2005, 05:45
I would change the fact that at present the Imperium is so evil it is getting ridiculus. It's like the bad guys in James Bond. They have such high ambitions it gets all ridiculus.

Make the Imperium less unnecissarily evil and make it into something we can relate to. And make the artwork less "cool" and make the Imperial servants appear human.

C. Langana
12-10-2005, 06:10
Stop making everything Rare/dying out/impossible to reproduce. If you've read IA: Rhinos you'll know what I mean.

Sikkukkut
12-10-2005, 08:08
A few thoughts, mainly to do with general direction and probably overlapping one another.

I'd go the opposite way to violenceha. I'd fuzz over the Horus Heresy and fuzz over the War in Heaven even more, to make them great and terrifying disasters, casting their shadows down the ages but only visible now through a haze of fearful half-memory and mythology.

I'd also go the opposite way to Colonel Kebab. I'd make things weirder, more disturbing, less full of comforting action-flick cliches. No human societies or governments or lives or attitudes that are just our own society transplanted into the future. I'd work to increase the surreal, hallucinatory strangeness of the 40Kverse and extend it right through the setting: people should read even the smallest bit of background text and put it down with wide eyes thinking "whoa, that is messed up". People who want optimistic sci-fi full of pioneer spirit and upward progress can go watch Star Trek; people who want unambiguous wisecracking heroes (who would fit right into a contemporary cop or army movie) are spoilt for choice about other settings to choose from. The background and art should send a clear message that you're not in Kansas any more.

I'd try to play down the "WWII in space" feel that seems to have crept into the background, the idea that conflict in the 41st Millennium is defined by a clearly-defined war between several huge, monolithic and united entities. "OK, so there are The Humans (who have The Space Marines, The Guard and The Inquisition), then there are The Orks, The Eldar, The Tyranids, Chaos, The Necrons, and they all meet and have great big pitched battles, see?" Well, no, or only sometimes. I'd portray the galaxy as not just a theatre of war between half a dozen mega-forces, with clearly defined battle-lines and definite noncombatant areas and populations. I'd shift the portrayal to a galaxy on a constant low boil; almost anyone is as likely to be a potential enemy as an ally. And I would definitely try and arrest the trend to group the sides into Good Guys (usually Human/Eldar/Tau) and Bad Guys (Chaos/Nids/Necrons/Dark Eldar) and try to imply that those two groups are going to gravitate into giant coalitions that will take each other on.

Following on from that, I'd de-emphasise the meta-plot. Not just chop it off, but try and fade it into the background and uncouple it from what the game is about. Like others on this forum, I'd emphasise setting over story, the idea that this is a giant, sprawling backdrop for your own stories to play out against. I'd have lots of relatively small-scale campaigns for people to play in and read about, like the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, the Gryphonne IV war that some fans are refighting, or the Cerberus Shroud war that the BFG Yahoogroup did a couple of years ago.

There are plenty of individual tweaks I'd give it, but that's probably enough to be going on with.

(BTW, question for Easy E: when you say you'd bring back the Brain Boyz, do you mean you'd restore them to the orks' history or you'd actually resurrect them in the setting?)

CELS
12-10-2005, 08:36
What Sikkukkut said.

I'd also take a look at Chaos versus other races. Right now, Chaos seems to be mostly the nemesis of humans. You don't hear much about chaos corrupted orks, tau, eldar, necrons, tau, etc, because GW seems to suggest that they're almost immune to the stuff. Well, I think nothing should be immune to chaos, not even necrons. If Chaos can possess a tank, then why can't it possess a Necron Lord?

I'll take "Chaos did it" over "The War in Heaven did it" any day of the week.

Also, I'd try to tone down the impact of Space Marines in the galaxy, just a smidge :)

Nurglitch_PS
12-10-2005, 09:06
I'd kick out the Necrons and everything they've brought with them and replace Dark Eldar with Chaos Eldar from the Eye of Terror. I'd give the Tau more worlds.

Sojourner
12-10-2005, 09:18
Oppposite to CELS. Chaos is and always has been a human problem. Eldar deal with it in their own way, Orks and Tau are both largely invulnerable for different reasons. Chaos is a metaphor for a human being's 'dark side'.

I'd defocus on the intrique and grand plots, and put the emphasis back on faceless, dragging bureaucracy and eternity of carnage and endless slaughter a la 2nd ed. There are no heroes in this world.

cailus
12-10-2005, 11:14
Sikkukkut has hit the nail on the head.

CELS
12-10-2005, 11:42
Oppposite to CELS. Chaos is and always has been a human problem. Eldar deal with it in their own way
Funny, I thought the decadence of the ancient Eldar led to the birth of a new Chaos god. I guess that is one way of dealing with it :) [/sarcasm]


Orks and Tau are both largely invulnerable for different reasons. Chaos is a metaphor for a human being's 'dark side'.
I don't agree. Besides, GW hints that there are chaos orks. I believe Adrian Woods has a chaos ork army, and Codex: Daemonhunters mention the possibility of fighting Chaos Eldar and shows artwork of Chaos corrupted orks. And of course, back in the old days, you had Chaos genestealer cults. On top of that, you have the races that Dan Abnett created which were connected with Chaos.

A human problem? I beg to differ ;) But I guess I'm going off topic here. Sorry.

Haarken
12-10-2005, 12:03
I'd bring back the Squats, keep CSMs in the eye of terror, make space marines operate in legions and tone down the Space Vampires and Space Werewolves.

Iracundus
12-10-2005, 12:07
Orks are not invulnerable but overall as a species they fall less commonly than humans to the lures of Chaos. Likewise while there are truly Fallen Eldar, the Eldar for the most part have found their own means of avoiding the clutches of Chaos, either through the Path system or through the consumption of souls in the case of the Dark Eldar. The Tau have their Greater Good ideology, and have weak warp presences and lack of psychic ability which leaves them much less vulnerable to possession and reduces their desirability as targets for daemons.

The biggest change I'd favor would be shift away from ridiculous focusing on Marines, whether loyalist or Chaos, and more on the average human fighting forces, Guard and Chaos cultists/non-Marine Champions. Also I'd favor more focus on alien races, beyond the overdone "kill the alien" blather spouted by the Ordo Xenos or the Imperial fanatics. Yes we know the Imperium is xenophobic and xenocidal, but let's go beyond that into actual details about aliens and their societies and internal factions. Aliens should be portrayed as more than caricatures or simple fall guys for the Imperium to blow up.

Luke
12-10-2005, 12:51
as mentioned before, kick the necrons out on their arses. bring back the idea of the brainboys, re-invent the orks as a race at the pinnacle of their evolution and culture.
eldar, fine the way they are
chaos, need to stop skulking around and launch a massive assault on the imperium
the nids need to crawl back into whatever hole they came out and become that "shadow" that threatened to unmake covilization from the inside out.
GREY KNIGHTS! rememebr when all they did was turn up for one turn, kick a demons ass then dissapear? i thought that was lovely, really gave the grey knights a sense of mystery and awe-inspiring power. not now though

"hey, were the grey knights, got trouble with orks? let us help!, ill bring my power armoured mates along to help and we'll stick around to get all the glory..."

BaronDG
12-10-2005, 13:54
I would lose the necron the way they are now, instead turning them into the "men of iron" from imperial myth. Robots, still operating on imperative from terra but that had somehow become corrupted and are now just making their way home...

The ctan could be turned into deamon princes, nightbringer to nurgle, deciever to tzeenge. Are there anymore?

Brother Othorio
12-10-2005, 13:58
i'd hardly call a two page picture of nurgle-orks a 'hint'!

myself, i would un-virusbomb Stalinvast (that was a cool planet), redesign space marine chapters, undo the destruction of Gryphonne IV, make the Soul Drinkers a bit less technologically retarded and orbital assault focused, make the Alpha Legion green again and give IG their Land Raiders, Beastmen Auxiliaries, Jump Pack Assault Troops, Dreadnoughts & Combat Robots back

Iracundus
12-10-2005, 14:21
As I said above and in previous threads where the susceptibility of other races to Chaos came up, Orks falling to Chaos is possible but nowhere near as common as humans falling to Chaos on the galactic scale. Compared to the teeming numbers of normal Orks in the galaxy, that bunch of Nurgle Orks in the picture are an aberration and rarity.

40K humanity has the unlucky distinction of having a large enough warp presence to be a tasty target for daemons, while not having sufficient internal willpower or psychic training (like the Eldar) to be too hard to crack and being numerous enough to be a staple diet for daemons. Again, this is at the species level, on average, discounting individuals of unusually strong resistance. Eldar may be a greater prize but they're harder to get, and there are a lot fewer of them. Orks may be more numerous than humans but their straightforward minds are more difficult to break into and offer less reward for the effort involved.

Centurion Cajun
12-10-2005, 15:24
I personally want them to continue to flesh out the universe in any way. The new codexes make me giddy with excitement simply for all the fluff they are filled with. I would also like to have a map of the galaxy where we actually have a general idea where things are. Sure, the major worlds (Terra, Macragge, Gryphonne IV) are shown but what about places like exactly where Guant's Ghosts are and such.

I also want to keep the trend of realistic artwork that they have now. Those cartoon like pictures they used to have gave me headaches.

Apollyon
12-10-2005, 15:33
I would hire a manger of continueity(sp?) who made sure all the fluff matched and flog Gav about not making the fact that "Angels of Darkeness" was told from the traitors point of veiw clear enough. I would also make orks no longer plants. I think youe ideas are an awesome start. Perhaps we should all by stock and bring this up at the share holders meeting???:D


I was reading a thread about changing the Fantasy background, and I decided to blatantly steal it for the 40K forum.

If you were given creative control over the 40K background, what would you change about it?

I would bring back the Brainboyz and the story of the Blood Axez once being the dominant clan until the Big Party caused their overthrow. I would remove Orks from the War in Heaven.

I would also change the Blood Angels away from their berserkers in training and back towards humanities stalwart defenders, lovers of the fine arts, and looked upon as near saints, but with a curse of madness that haunts them.

I would add alot more Xeno Empires, another Human/Abhuman Realm, and Mercenary Groups to the background.

I would focus on the corrupting power of Chaos as more of a threat than that of the Chaos Marines themselves. More Chaos Guard, Chaos Mechanicus, and a true Chaos Cult list.

Genestealer, Warp Entity, Alien, and Chaos Cults for all!

Anyone else?

Anything you guys would change?

Hlokk
12-10-2005, 16:07
What I'd do

1:Slap down the C'tan. Gods have no place on the battlefield, they should only be in the fluff. If we go down that road, we might as well do rules for the emperor, khorne and eldanesh and have done with it.

2: Remove the whole "war in heaven" crap. I would undo the way the c'tan were shoehorned into the background, making them responsible for everything from assassinating JFK to creating the tau. I would make it expressly clear that

a: The Machine god is not a c'tan (Have it as something else, but not a c'tan)
b: The C'tan did not create the tau
c: The deciever is not responsible for every little war or failed civilisation like the codex implies

3: Keep space marines the way they are, but focus on developing the background for new chapters. If the BTs get their own codex, why not the Minotaurs, raptors or space sharks? Im not advocating developing full codicies, but a bit more background wouldnt hurt.

4: Bring Ynead, the eldar god of the dead into mainstream background. Make it clear that they want to resurect him.

5: Make the eldar a little more sinister than they are now. A bit like the dark angels in that no-one is ever sure of their real motives.

6: Lets have the imperial guard actually win a few major battles without 99% of the soldiers getting slaughtered.

7: I'd make more crusades launched by the imperium. Like the one done by mecharius, I'd slot in a few more, just to show the imperium isnt prepared to sit back and take it.

8: Leave the orks as they are. I like the idea of the beast unleashed.

9: Tau can never have enough mercinary races.

Brother Othorio
12-10-2005, 17:45
I would also make orks no longer plants. oooo, i would have said that too but i am in denial about it..

malika
12-10-2005, 17:58
Keep the Ork biology as it is, I kinda like it. However try to flesh out more on Ork technology and culture. No a race cannot create a powerful military simply by looting from the enemy they would first have to conquer!

Keep the War in Heaven and the C'tan, I dont really mind them...however keep them out of the wargame. The Eldar might have sort of forgotten about the C'tan or considered to be legends, then Slaanesh came and the Eldar got all scared (you know the story), then again later they see that the Necrons and C'tan are waking up, realising that the legends were true...the Eldar get very scared/worried. Adds more drama to them I guess.

No C'tan on Mars...I would rather see something else there, perhaps a Necron weapon or something?

mesmile
12-10-2005, 19:25
Ok, here goes:

I. Boost up the military forces. Space marines chapters 1000 strong? Actually, they´re more or less 100 000 each. Same thing with Titan Legions and deployed IG regeiments. There should be millions of IG during most conflicts.

II. Chop-chop, no more C´tan or Necrontyr. Necron tombs stays, though knowledge about them is very limited.

III. Degofyfie (new word) the Orks. No Dakka Dakka dis crap works bicause we thinkz it doez. They are the god domn plague of the universe, not The Space Barbarians with Funny English from Star Trek.

IV. Pull back the tyranids a bit. Yes, they WILL eat the galaxy. But it may still several thousand years til that.

V. No CSM as playable armies (maybe as HQ choice). After 10 000 years they are RARE.

Goatboy
12-10-2005, 19:41
For the Necrons I'd tweak the dates given for the war in heaven, making the end of the conflict more recent(about the time the first humans appeared). Move the C'tan off the table top and into the background by having them still sleeping in there tombs. I'd then change the Necrons SC's to Necron lords who are high priests or avatars of there respective C'tan. I'd also like to give the standard lords more personality with there own goals and agendas beyond blindly serving the C'tan.

For the Tau I'd do more about how they view the rest of the 40K universe, not just Humans, but the other alien races and its stranger aspects and legends(the warp, Necrons ect)One thing I've always thought would be cool is a scene where a Ethereal or Fire warrior commander is given a top secret intelligence report showing casualty figures for a major Imperial conflict like Armageddon, and just refuses to believe that the Imperium has so many troops. A bit more emphasis on the darker aspects of there society would be welcome, as it would shut up all those people who bitch that the Tau are "good guys".

More Dark Eldar fluff

For all the non Imperial races have more background about them fighting some one other than the Imperium.

For the Marine's less of the the "a single chapter conquers a entire planet by itself". And more background showing the Marines as a surgical strike force used alongside the rest of the Imperiums armed forces.

For the Guard I'd show that they are more than just cannon fodder. That they are for the most part well trained professional soldiers. But I'd also show just how outmatched the average guardsman is on the battlefields of the 41st millennium when they are fighting any enemy other than other unmodified humans.

Easy E
12-10-2005, 22:53
(BTW, question for Easy E: when you say you'd bring back the Brain Boyz, do you mean you'd restore them to the orks' history or you'd actually resurrect them in the setting?)

Sorry it took so long to respond. I meant that I would want them back into the background and not as a playable unit. Although I wouldn't mind some snotling's as wargear/units.

I would also like to expand on how the Orkology works. This fits in decently with the partially plant thing we have now. i feel that can stay, as it explains how there are so many Orks nicely.

C'tan as playable units have to go. They can stay in the Background,just like the Laughing God and the Primarchs can.

I would also increase the size of Chapters to a more realistic size, if we want to believe they can take planets.

I would also want a more pro-active Imperium.

Dark Eldar fluff. Really anything at all would be an improvement!

Great stuff! Keep it going guys.

Khaine's Messenger
12-10-2005, 22:59
If you were given creative control over the 40K background, what would you change about it?

Frankly I think that "changes" would just end up being a reboot once everyone's ideas and flat attempts at creativity once again start to clutter up the setting again. Even the "Lovecraftian Mythos" got strung together by external powers and started sliding down the slope of quantifiability and continuity despite being supposedly incomprehensible to the human mind.

What would I change, though? The role and attitudes of Space Marines, the nature of the C'tan and the extent of their influence, the timeframe of the War in Heaven and the nature of the Great Plague, the setting beyond the 41st millenium (this might require doing "period" armylists for various armies, but that's game-side), the Imperium's loneliness as a galactic superpower, Orks in general...to be honest, by the time I would get "done" with it, it is quite likely that it would not be 40k anymore, which is kinda not the point of this thread. In the most general case, I wish I could just expand peoples' views of 40k beyond snappy one-liners. Get them away from the codex and the armylists which inevitably feed back into the background itself. Sadly, the BL materials are poorly put-together for this task, imho, but not many people bother anyway....in any event, I would try to encourage the publication of myriad RPG-style sourcebooks which one hopes would attract attention to "other" aspects of 40k. BL is doing its darndest, of course....

Goblinardo
12-10-2005, 23:16
I'd keep the C'tan in the tabletop, but not as the Star Gods themselves. Something more on the lines of a C'tan "avatar" would be just right, and would explain better why there are so many Deceivers and Nightbringers running around.

EDIT: Yes, a 40K RPG would do wonders for the fluff, as it would force it to expand in non-military/grand history directions.

Freak Ona Leash
12-10-2005, 23:30
I'd make SM chapters much larger. 1,000,000 or so Marines sounds good. And the legions should've been...oh, ten times that, or thereabouts. Actually, I already view Chapters as one million Frateris strong. Whenever I read 1000, I just mentally add a few zeros ;)

TitusAndronicus
12-10-2005, 23:31
I like 10,000 actually. That makes more sense.

Freak Ona Leash
12-10-2005, 23:38
But, if we had a million Chapters of a million marines, we wouldnt need any pansy Guardsmen running around. Its a win-win situation :D

Brother Othorio
12-10-2005, 23:53
regarding marines:
pre-heresy legions at 100,000 strong average (which they have already done with the revised HH fluff)
post heresy chapters = use the Horus Heresy era Space Marine regimental organisation from WD136ish, only give them an extra battalion or two (speaking of which does anyone actually have that article? my only knowledge on that comes from a conversion site for EPIC40k)

oh and bring back brother-lieutenants..

Cosmic_Girl
13-10-2005, 00:17
Hello,

Eldrad's death. I thought that was kinda rude the way they wrote off such an interesting character. I really think he deserved a better death than that, unless they plan to bring him back somehow.

I know this is totally unrealistic, but I just wish they could come up with a genuinly original idea. I quite like reading, especially older stuff like english literature classics, Dorian Gray, Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment etc... and SO much of that stuff comes up in 40k. Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov, Fyodor is Dostoyevsky's first name, and he also wrote a book called "the Brothers Karamazov" and also one about an inquisitor. There's also an inquisitor character called Dorian Black.

Even Edgar Alan Poe is directly quoted (quoted is the wrong word since it wasn't referenced, rather it was outright plaguerised) in the Eye of Terror Codex, where a quote of Eldrad's appears. At least one or two lines come directly from "The Raven" I think.

The whole Emperor Vs Horus seems like it comes from the Bible regarding the conflict between God and Lucifer (whose sin was also pride). The Eldar smith god Vaul who is crippled is a direct comparison to Haephaistos from Greek mythology who is also a crippled smith god and Cypher should just carry around a guitar case and speak with a spanish accent. (Antonio Banderas, top 10 sexiest men alive)

I'm sure if I were to think about it, I could find a lot more references.

C-girl.

sulla
13-10-2005, 01:36
I'd have less black and white and more grey... I want multiple conflicting stories for great events, not some god's eye truth.

I'd get rid of the idea of 'good' aliens. Sure some aliens may ally with the imperium for a certain campaign but neither side should really be ideologically alligned. The imperium should really have found common cause with ork and DE factions just as often as craftworld eldar and tau.

DURENDIN
13-10-2005, 01:45
I definately have to agree with a lot of what has been said.

The Imperium is becoming so evil it'll soon be safer in the Eye of Terror! It isn't the best human regime ever, but it's loosing it's noble side as well.

What C. Langana said about everything becoming rare and hard to replace. What are all those bloody Forge Worlds making then? Toasters? (That's world sized factories! Hundreds of them!) You can bet there's a Rhino on every street in the Imperium!

I for one am glad that the concept of keeping Chaos as a forbidden secret is fading away. It was just silly. What the hell are the Adeptus Ministorum ranting and raving from the pulpit about then? Follow the Emperor, just because? You can bet they would be big on the "fire and brimstone" method of decrying Chaos. Hard to explain the Heresy without it.

I'm also grateful that in the 4th Ed book we see Orks as "The Beast!" I hated the cartoony aspect they had taken on. They should be brutal and nasty, all of them.

I secretly have high hopes about the up and coming Horus Heresy novels. At least they will be "cannon" and we can hopefully answer some questions that have been thorns in the sides of many debates for years. Was Horus taken over by a Daemon or a pure traitor? Did everyone and his dog from Magnus the Red to Eldrad Ulthran warn the Emperor? That sort of thing.

Centurion Cajun
13-10-2005, 04:39
Oh, something else I forgot to add. I seriously hope that they continue to make Index Astartes articles and releasing them as books. In my opinion this is one of the greatest things done in recent years. This way we get all the good fluff about Space Marine chapters, equipment, personnel, etc. without having to have a bunch of codexes.

Now, if they would start to do some articles about various Imperial Guard regiments or the forces from various worlds that would be even better.:D

Can you tell I loves the fluff?:p

Cosmic_Girl
13-10-2005, 06:07
Hello,


Original ideas are rather hard to come by though. There's only so many themes to go around, and only so many variations on a theme that can be played.

Yeah, but come on, that one's REALLY blatant. At least credit the man "some material taken from external sources" clause somewhere. The way its written they're trying to pass of the work of great authors as their own.

"...of a demon's that is dreaming,
And the lamp-light o'er him streaming throws his shadow..."

Excerpted from "The Raven" by Edgar Alan Poe

"...of a demon that is dreaming, casting its shadow..."

Excerpted from the Eye of Terror codex..

The only reason they changed it is because it would have sounded trite to write that passage in rhyme. They may as well have called the character Eldrad Alan Poe. To be honest I prefer the original version.

That isn't borrowing a theme loosely based upon someone else's work, its outright plagerism. Those names I've just mentioned and the line from that passage (at least part of it) has been directly quoted from another author's work.

C-girl.

Centurion Cajun
13-10-2005, 06:32
I don't see it so much ripping off great writers. It's kinda a
"wink wink nod nod" thing. Just look at Inquisitor Torquemada. That is a just lifting the good old Spanish Inquisition whacko into 40k. I think it's worked out quite nice so far.:cool:

Bauglir
13-10-2005, 08:32
I would lessen the focus on the C'Tans and pull back the Tyranids a few sectors. And yeah, I would just like to see some slight glimmer of hope for humanity now and then.

Sometimes the entire 40k setting just reminds me of Girs (Invader Zim) song. It goes something like this: "Dooom, doom, dooooom, doomdoomdoom, dooooooom, doomdomdidoomdidoom"

And yeah, I would fire half of the Black Library writers for writing rubbish.

Vosk
13-10-2005, 09:26
I would make sure every last bit of Necron/C'tan fluff had the following disclaimer...

This fluff is ambiguous, shrouded in mystery and generally unclear, therefore the conclusions you draw are entirely what you want them to be. If you want to C'tan to be behind everything (ever) then they are, or you could choose to see them as being influential on the galactic stage but not overly so. Therefore, if you find yourself getting angry about the apparent shoe-horning of the C'tan into the fluff then this anger is entirely your own fault, since you interpreted the fluff in that way and have not decided to remedy your anger by seeking alternate views. Happing whinging.

That should just about do it.


Dawn of War has the Orks about right I think - though they still talk in a semi-stupid manner there is no denying that they are brutal and very, very dangerous. Every last one of them. Their speech is just a good, direct way of showing that they aren't as "refined" as certain other races think themselves to be. Therefore, I'd make the Orks a lot more brutal in the fluff - fighting great battles is good, but we also need Orks ravaging civilian populations and crushing small children under their boot.


Any expansion on what happens after the Eye of Terror campaign would be nice - they had a lot of potential there but nothing ever really came of it.


But over all I'm not particularly annoyed at any of the fluff out there. Some of it could do with some tweaking or refining, but it's not half as serious as some people seem to think.

Hlokk
13-10-2005, 10:42
Sometimes the entire 40k setting just reminds me of Girs (Invader Zim) song. It goes something like this: "Dooom, doom, dooooom, doomdoomdoom, dooooooom, doomdomdidoomdidoom"

And yeah, I would fire half of the Black Library writers for writing rubbish.

Agreed, the depressing, gothic aspect is all well and good, but you need something to balance it out. Thats why I love the Tau background, they really were a badly needed breath of fresh air to the background.

One Idea I was thinking of was to have a part of the imperium as some sort of area free from war, maybe just to show how the imperium works when its not at war.

Aside from that, which BL writers do you think write rubbish (apart from Gav, obviously)

DURENDIN
13-10-2005, 10:51
Agreed, the depressing, gothic aspect is all well and good, but you need something to balance it out.

Churches or Cathedrals in my neck of the woods are very gothic in style, but still remain houses of hope. A state of constant misery isn't going to make men charge machine guns! That's what the Imperium lacks. Hope!


One Idea I was thinking of was to have a part of the imperium as some sort of area free from war, maybe just to show how the imperium works when its not at war.

Probably most of the Imperium just gets on with it and doesn't see much conflict. Given that a well organised country at war has about 15-20 people behind each fighting man, Emperor knows how many support the Imperial bureaucracy. I remember reading in a GG novel that Gaunt was musing that the Imperium was like the city he was in. A golden, dense centre slowly getting worse as you got to the slums and the wastes on the outside.

malika
13-10-2005, 12:07
I see that people want more Space Marines so that they can take over planets. I think people have a very bad view of how Space Marines are currently used by the Imperium, they are a surgical tool, the Imperial Guard go take over entire worlds and wage large scale wars, the Space Marines take out certain difficult positions. Compare them to elite forces such as the Navy Seals.


Therefore, I'd make the Orks a lot more brutal in the fluff - fighting great battles is good, but we also need Orks ravaging civilian populations and crushing small children under their boot.
Very true, just make them very mean and nasty, however they are clever enough to build their own warp engines.

Another thing that bugs me is the rarity of technology in the Imperium. The Imperium is very able to produce warp engines and plasma weapons, dont give me this "its so rare boohoo" crap!!!:mad:

People want a more friendly Imperium? BURN YOU HERETIC!!! The future should be a place you dont want to live in, the nicest possible place might be the Tau Empire if you are lucky, the rest of the galaxy is a mean and nasty place where you can only find war and suffering.

Do something about Abaddon, yes yes he is the nastiest Chaos Warmaster, but still he remains static, he doesnt evolve or grow.

Apollyon
13-10-2005, 15:12
Some character for the Crons would be great but Marines are supossed to have 1 chapter take a planet the problem is the rules don't reflect the fluff ....I'd really like to see that change where a SM army would only be one ore two squads.



For the Necrons I'd tweak the dates given for the war in heaven, making the end of the conflict more recent(about the time the first humans appeared). Move the C'tan off the table top and into the background by having them still sleeping in there tombs. I'd then change the Necrons SC's to Necron lords who are high priests or avatars of there respective C'tan. I'd also like to give the standard lords more personality with there own goals and agendas beyond blindly serving the C'tan.


For the Marine's less of the the "a single chapter conquers a entire planet by itself". And more background showing the Marines as a surgical strike force used alongside the rest of the Imperiums armed forces.

Vosk
13-10-2005, 16:05
Marines are supossed to have 1 chapter take a planet the problem is the rules don't reflect the fluff ....I'd really like to see thant change where a SM army would only be one ore two squads.

Are you serious? Space Marines don't wage planet-wide war. They used to, but they were called Legions back at the time. Space Marines are used to handle the tough, critical or terrifying jobs that the Imperial Guard can't handle. Surgical strikes, critical defences, breakthroughs and so on.

It would seem that you've taken the "omfg! SM are teh win!!" image that the regular grunts of the Imperium are fed by the propaganda machines to heart. The Imperium likes to portray the image that Space Marines never lose, and that their arrival ensures victory (helps with morale, and keeps the Marines in their role as terror weapons)Believe me, there are plenty of fluff descriptions of Marines being overwhelmed and slaughtered wholesale by all manner of foes in all manner of circumstances. They are far from unbeatable, and the notion that a thousand of them (really there would be less - Chapters are never committed completely) could handle the jobs the propaganda describes them as doing is laughable.

If anything, I would like to see more fluff describing how great Space Marines are, side by side with fluff showing them in an altogether more mortal role (preferably describing the same events). This would go a long way towards showing just how much spin the Imperium well, spins.

Apollyon
13-10-2005, 16:49
First I need to proof read second, the fluff that Marine are uber badassed look at the Deatwing for example 1 squad of Termies liberating a genestealer infestion. Took the rules are the failing not the fluff.



Are you serious? Space Marines don't wage planet-wide war. They used to, but they were called Legions back at the time. Space Marines are used to handle the tough, critical or terrifying jobs that the Imperial Guard can't handle. Surgical strikes, critical defences, breakthroughs and so on.

It would seem that you've taken the "omfg! SM are teh win!!" image that the regular grunts of the Imperium are fed by the propaganda machines to heart. The Imperium likes to portray the image that Space Marines never lose, and that their arrival ensures victory (helps with morale, and keeps the Marines in their role as terror weapons)Believe me, there are plenty of fluff descriptions of Marines being overwhelmed and slaughtered wholesale by all manner of foes in all manner of circumstances. They are far from unbeatable, and the notion that a thousand of them (really there would be less - Chapters are never committed completely) could handle the jobs the propaganda describes them as doing is laughable.

If anything, I would like to see more fluff describing how great Space Marines are, side by side with fluff showing them in an altogether more mortal role (preferably describing the same events). This would go a long way towards showing just how much spin the Imperium well, spins.

malika
13-10-2005, 16:52
IIRC it was a single squad that survived liberating that world from the Tyranids...

Mother_Mercy
13-10-2005, 20:18
What I'd change? Simple.

More mystery, more misery. :evilgrin:

Return the Chaos Marines to a mysterious, terrifying foe. Granted, not on the "mindscrub/genocide"-style of old, but put them in a position fitting 10.000-year old traitors of dark legend. When faced with CSM, I'd want a guardsman to go:
"The Iron Warriors? But...but...but weren't they among those who turned during the Horus Heresy?"
"Yep."
"But...but...but didn't the Emperor banish them forever into the Eye of Terror? Aren't they supposed to dead since ten millennia?"
"I guess they came back."

Same goes for the regular Marines. Turn them into the rare, near-mythical superhumans they're supposed to be, and shift the focus of the game to the regular human warriors.

Like others have already said, get the C'tan off of the tabletop. They're supposed to be gods, dammit!

Get rid of the notion of "nobility". Imperial saints should preach hate, intolerance and blind obediance. Commissars should not be harsh but fair fatherly figures, but evils sods who'll kill you for not polishing your boots well enough. Marines should not be noble knights, they should be remorseless killers who'd shoot an unarmed civilian to get at the enemy combatant behind her. Imperial citizens should live in perpetual fear and oppression. The Eldar should not be good guys, they should be selfish and arrogant bastards. Races like the Tau shouldn't be "pure and innocent", just yet to have their ignorance shattered. The 41st millennium should be a horrible, horrible place void of hope and peace.

I'd like to instill a feeling that doomsday has already come and gone, that any hope mankind had for a future died long ago and that the corpse has just not stopped twitching yet.

And on the misery-note: More Chaos Xenos. Everyone's corruptible.

Yeah, perhaps I'm a tad morbid, but hey... :angel:

Ivan Stupidor
13-10-2005, 21:16
What I'd change? Simple.
Return the Chaos Marines to a mysterious, terrifying foe. Granted, not on the "mindscrub/genocide"-style of old, but put them in a position fitting 10.000-year old traitors of dark legend. When faced with CSM, I'd want a guardsman to go:
"The Iron Warriors? But...but...but weren't they among those who turned during the Horus Heresy?"
"Yep."
"But...but...but didn't the Emperor banish them forever into the Eye of Terror? Aren't they supposed to dead since ten millennia?"
"I guess they came back."

Agreed. A veteran Guardsamn should be able to fight the Enemies Within, Without and Beyond on the right foot - since birth, he's been told that the Traitor, the Xenos and the Daemon are his foes, and he knows how to defeat them - trust in his comrades and faith in the Emperor. But when the Traitor Legions show up, he's terrified, because, under their blaspheming armour and twisting runes and leering helmets, they are Marines, the Adeptus Astartes, the mightiest warriors in the Emperor's armies... and they're coming to kill him.



Same goes for the regular Marines. Turn them into the rare, near-mythical superhumans they're supposed to be, and shift the focus of the game to the regular human warriors.

See above. The Adeptus Astartes is a terrifying force, built up through millenia of legends and propaganda, Angels of Death most likely viewed as images in stained glass in cathedrals. When they arrive, their allies know victory is at hand and their enemies know that the end has come.

(Now I have this image of a council of Imperial Generals standing around a map of a battlefield, too awed and fearful to question a Chapter Master's plans for their forces and looking sheepishly at their jackboots like a bunch of nervous schoolboys. Of course, such senior officers will be a bit more blase about Space Marines than most, so this shouldn't happen that often, unless the Chapter Master is one of the Imperium-wide legends, like Marneus Calgar or Logan Grimnar.)

Apollyon
13-10-2005, 21:34
No, it was only a few guys, Weisel Feirce, Sergio Lame Bear, Two Tongues (or was it Two Faces???) and like 2 or 3 other guys.



IIRC it was a single squad that survived liberating that world from the Tyranids...

Inquisitor Maul
13-10-2005, 21:55
No, it was only a few guys, Weisel Feirce, Sergio Lame Bear, Two Tongues (or was it Two Faces???) and like 2 or 3 other guys.

Two head talking actualy (might be a little wrong there)

He was a Librarian ;)

kd7svh
13-10-2005, 21:58
You can bet there's a Rhino on every street in the Imperium!

Yep, every world will have an Abartes outpost and that means Rhinos.

Kage2020
13-10-2005, 23:04
Hmmmn... For me?

GW needs to stop pussy-footing around with Imperial-centrism. It's an excuse that can be slapped over everything and, to be honest, for me it is getting downright boring. Okay, maybe not entirely true since at the moment it is about the only way to get some decent movement out of the 'fluff', at least in the direction that I'm after.

Eldar need a complete revamp, from my perspective. They're either 'human with pointy ears' or they're 'too mysterious for anyone to understand' and represented in the most horrendous manner.

Similarly, the Space Marines need a return to their roots.

While Sikkukkut's strike a nerve, so I tend to agree with them, I would also move away from the 'completely surreal' (read: not plausible) universe and into something slightly more... workeable. Abnett goes some distance but also tends to represent it a tad too much Star Wars/Star Trek.

Kage

Brother Othorio
13-10-2005, 23:38
just to clarify, the Deathwing didnt save an entire planet from a full scale tyranid invasion, they liberated the primitive planets only city from a genestealer brood, the brood apparently possessed industrial steam engines but no firearms and yet still managed to kill 24 of the 30 Terminators who entered the city

(the only named survivors were Lame Bear and Cloud Runner, Weasel Fierce got a stealer claw through his chest and Two Heads Talking died of multiple before the rest even entered the city)

kd7svh
13-10-2005, 23:44
While Sikkukkut's strike a nerve, so I tend to agree with them, I would also move away from the 'completely surreal' (read: not plausible) universe and into something slightly more... workeable. Abnett goes some distance but also tends to represent it a tad too much Star Wars/Star Trek.

While I would never want 40K to be anything like SW/ST, I think that if it was really anything like a lot of the darker fluff makes it out to be it would cease to exist for lack of inhabitants, what with all the mass suicides that would probably take place! ;)

I haven't read any of Abnett's work (yet), but the Sandy Mitchell Ciaphas Cain novels do a great job of putting the Imperial part of the 40K universe into terms that I think make sense. Sure it's a dark and gritty world with lots of war, but your average citizen is just going about their normal life just like us. It feels much more realistic. The two Arbites novels (Crossfire & Legacy) by Matthew Farrer also do justice to a more realistic Empire in my opinion.

Personally I could do with less of the doom and gloom "Eternal war" BS but I can understand why others would want more of it.

Lockjaw
14-10-2005, 03:56
I'd have more fluff from an alien's point of view, rather than just the imperium's point of view of that alien. bring back brain boyz, ork genestealer hybrids, tinboyz, and all the other cooler stuff with orks and their fluff. no more 'ork weapons work because they think they do" crap, and no more 'orks are plants" crap. mercenary armies. another human kingdom/empire seperate from the imperium, with a different way of doing things than the imperium (but not necciserily 'good guys' either), maybe decendants of human explorers from pre-imperium times returning to the galaxy. fluff for the dark eldar. non human chaos armies (orks, eldar, tau). necrons as robots (men of iron, that sort of thing). the return of the squats. less war in heaven. less focus on space marines, more on IG and xenos. less "eternal war in the dark future there is only darky darkness" crap, yes there are wars all over the galaxy, but it's not much different from earth in this day and age. less dying races, if eldar were dying out, they'd be dead by now. and i'd have less of a mystical view of technology, keep the admech's praying to their toasters and guarding the secrets of their tech, but your average john smith imperial citizen should just look at it and just see a toaster, I don't know all the inner workings of my ps2, but i don't think it's powered by spirits, even if the repair man says so.

Chi
14-10-2005, 04:16
I actually think the warhammer 40k lore is pretty damn good.

Its the warhammer fantasy lore that kind of sucks.

Philip S
14-10-2005, 10:47
need a complete revamp, from my perspective. They're either 'human with pointy ears' or they're 'too mysterious for anyone to understand' and represented in the most horrendous manner.
I agree…;)

Philip

Mother_Mercy
14-10-2005, 11:53
...less "eternal war in the dark future there is only darky darkness" crap...

Nonono! More misery! Moooore! *Gibbers madly*

Seriously though, why does people want to lighten 40K up? The way I see it, the dark feel is what makes 40K 40K. It's supposed to be all the worst parts of the Dark Ages on a galactic scale.

Vosk
14-10-2005, 13:01
Indeed, part of what makes the 40k setting so great is that it is set at that critical time just before the big crunch of the Apocalypse (which could come from any number of sources really). Everything is ready to spill over and engulf mankind in true darkness for all time, but it never quite will, for these events are still a little way on.

How would people lighten it up anyway? Pull the Tyranids back? Reduce the impact of the C'tan? Bottle Chaos up in/around the Eye? All this would do is shame the forces of darkness. "We're really bad news for you! Blaaaargh!! But erm... we don't actually have any way to demonstrate this because we have very little impact in the fluff now, so people can enjoy a more Star Trek-esque happy lovey dovey Galaxy where Space Marines hold hands with the Imperial Guardsmen and boldly split infinitives that no man has ever split before". (A cookie to anyone who can place that mis-quote).

Lockjaw
14-10-2005, 13:15
i don't mean lighten it up, i just mean knock off the whole 'there's only war' stuff, obviously there's more in the galaxy than war, otherwise there'd be no imperium, tau empire, or eldar craftworlds

Vosk
14-10-2005, 14:50
i don't mean lighten it up, i just mean knock off the whole 'there's only war' stuff, obviously there's more in the galaxy than war, otherwise there'd be no imperium, tau empire, or eldar craftworlds

Why wouldn't there be? Given such a prolonged state of galactic warfare, each and every race involved would by now have built it into their very culture. Look at the Imperium - "Kill the alien. Kill the heretic. Kill the mutant." - that sort of philosophy is common to every region of the Imperium. To me that says "these problems are vast and present no matter where you go".

And ultimately... this is a war game.

Dr Death
14-10-2005, 16:06
I think rather than lighten up, what needs to happen is change the all pervasive invasions of doom into something a little more gritty- Have the imperiums wars with their enemies (particularly any Xenos species such as orks and nids) more of a meat grinder, have more logical battle dynamics and logistics than the ever increasing spate of "if this one single action fails the galaxy's doooooooommmmmmed!"

I agree with pretty much anyone who says go back to a more 2nd ed state of affairs because that will increase the above. I particularly dislike what they've done with the marines these days turning into knightly paragons, heroes and saints revered by all. I far prefer a more monk like veiw of marines where the individual lives, while not irrelevant are certainly not worth revering enless the individual has done something quite stunningly even by marine standards over and beyond the call of duty.

What i love about 40k is the idea that you have this huge, grinding, neverending eternal conflict with the imperium against the rest of the universe and then under that the idea that even that couldnt be made possible without the compleatly unsung sacrifice of the silent heroes such as the inquisition and the grey knights. Nowadays, their sacrifice is far far from unsung.

Dr Death

Bookwrak
14-10-2005, 16:15
I'd go back about ten years before the Horus Heresy, take the Emperor and all the Primachs, and have them spend a good, long time in group therapy.

kd7svh
14-10-2005, 16:30
I'd go back about ten years before the Horus Heresy, take the Emperor and all the Primachs, and have them spend a good, long time in group therapy.

/me trying to stop soda pop coming out my nose from laughing!

I can see it now:

[Therapist] Horus, did what the Emperor say hurt your feelings?
[Horus (crying)] All I ever wanted was your love! Why can't you just accept me the way I am?
[Therapist] Thats it, let it all out.
[Emperor (rolling eyes, mumbling under breath)] Big baby.

:evilgrin:

Chi
14-10-2005, 16:42
have more logical battle dynamics and logistics than the ever increasing spate of "if this one single action fails the galaxy's doooooooommmmmmed!"


Read Dan Abnett.


I particularly dislike what they've done with the marines these days turning into knightly paragons, heroes and saints revered by all

I actually like this perspective and it makes sense. One space marine is basically like the worlds greatest athlete + worlds greatest soldier + virtuous, pure, honorable. Not to mention the Space Marines (to outsiders) are members of organizations that are seemingly exempt from Imperial control. Imperial control that dominates nearly every aspect of imperial society. They seem to be "above the law" if you will. In addition, lets not forget that the Emperor is revered as a god, and from the time an Imperial citizen is aware, this fact is constantly drummed into their minds. The Space Marines are the closest living representations of the Emperor. Thus, people see in them living remnants of their god. Now after you have considered all of the previous arguments, also consider that the Space Marines have constantly beaten back every known enemy to man, have liberated thousands of worlds in the name of the Imperium and have limitless battle honors and mystique that have built up over the centuries. But all of the previous points are just tips in the ice berg. I would conjecture that the real reason the Imperial citizens revere Space Marines so much is that in this dark time of chaos and evil, the Space Marines are seen as a beacon of light and hope to the people of the Imperium. Something that gives them comfort when doubt and dispair threaten to consume their minds. Like children taking comfort at night if they think Super man or Batman watches over them. These things are why the Space Marines are revered.

- Chi

Khaine's Messenger
14-10-2005, 17:26
The main issue does not stem from whether or not the Space Marines are perceived as knights in shining armor or the members of an angelic warhost, which I think is perfectly fine. It stems from a lack of imagination about the underlying means and creeds of knights and angels...paragons they may be, but they are still trained (and in the angelic case, perhaps born) killers, and the presence of the members of an angelic warhost with weapons drawn inevitably means something is going to die, and it might be you. Most people don't think this way, because angels are glorious and would never harm a devout follower...any punishment is only fitting and deserved (indeed, a magnificent gift!), for nothing an angel can do would contravene the natural order...it is simply impossible in the devout believer's mind for such a thing to happen (see, for example, the citizens of the forgeworld in the Blood Angels duology who happily threw themselves on the guns of the Blood Angels to receive the "Blood Gift"; in Deathwing, a person who rats out a Tzeentchen Cult to the Inquisition is still put to death as the "reward" for his actions). And it's that firm opinion that is really what makes even conceiving of the Traitor Legions to be so horrific to Joe Imperial...and so it would be good to make them rare (in the sense of background). Indeed, Space Marines are usually not seen as oppressors even though they are part of a fairly oppressive system. But they are rare enough that their appearances can be candy-coated and clouded by the human mind. They are only feared as the dogma of "fear of God."

It would, however, be proper for those who have risen to positions of authority that allow them a study of history or politics to have a different view of Marines.

What people in the Imperium fear in a way we understand today is the Adeptus Arbites and the Enforcers of the planets on which they live...for the Arbites and the Enforcers are far more omnipresent and far less tactful in their operations, their appearances and actions far too common to be sugar-coated or even molasses-dipped, even if the Imperium makes the effort to dress up their Thought Police in eloquent terminology on public address/propaganda systems. This is why I think a lot of failed Imperial revolutions focus primarily on what the rebels are convinced the Emperor would have wanted--they perceive the Emperor (and his angelic warhost) as omnibenevolent, this simply clashes with their immediate perception of society, and therefore they either justify this discontinuity to themselves or simply rebel because they see the Emperor's purported policies in too rose-tinted a manner. Sometimes such revolutionaries are bolstered by infiltrator cults like GSC or Chaos, leading most Imperial scholars to simply dismiss most "what the Emperor would have wanted" cults out of hand as infiltration of undesirable ideas.

...but I imagine that's another thread entirely, isn't it?

Putting effort into logistics would be good, too. That's something that's always slightly miffed me...it's just one of those things that's often glossed over.

Kage2020
14-10-2005, 21:51
I agree…;)
But they look fine. No weird knees are needed! ;)

Kage

Dr Death
15-10-2005, 12:06
I actually like this perspective and it makes sense. One space marine is basically like the worlds greatest athlete + worlds greatest soldier + virtuous, pure, honorable. Not to mention the Space Marines (to outsiders) are members of organizations that are seemingly exempt from Imperial control. Imperial control that dominates nearly every aspect of imperial society. They seem to be "above the law" if you will. In addition, lets not forget that the Emperor is revered as a god, and from the time an Imperial citizen is aware, this fact is constantly drummed into their minds. The Space Marines are the closest living representations of the Emperor. Thus, people see in them living remnants of their god. Now after you have considered all of the previous arguments, also consider that the Space Marines have constantly beaten back every known enemy to man, have liberated thousands of worlds in the name of the Imperium and have limitless battle honors and mystique that have built up over the centuries. But all of the previous points are just tips in the ice berg. I would conjecture that the real reason the Imperial citizens revere Space Marines so much is that in this dark time of chaos and evil, the Space Marines are seen as a beacon of light and hope to the people of the Imperium. Something that gives them comfort when doubt and dispair threaten to consume their minds. Like children taking comfort at night if they think Super man or Batman watches over them. These things are why the Space Marines are revered.

Well i think that is a fairly 2d and innaccurate representation of the true astartes. Most imperial citizens dont even know the Astartes exist let alone know their faces. If you read the texts in codex space wolves, you will realise that the idea of a member of a clan or group being taken to serve as a "star warrior" is virtually myth. So many of the imperiums worlds are primitive that the idea of these virtually immortal super humans would be considered tall tales at the least.
In that respect i agree, marines would seem like some form of super hero, some unbeatable force which is keeping things you dont understand from eating you away. However once you join the guard and actually possibly see a marine "in the flesh" you would realise these arnt quite the shining paragons of virtue always there to save your bacon you once thought them to be.
For instance, if you were fighting in the guard alongside blood angel or pretty much any of their successors you would probably hear rumours of members of regiments being taken in the night and never seen again. Dark angels you never know whether they'll be there for you or not. Iron hands are like commissars only worse, the list goes on.

My point is that the super-hero splendour of marines as the eternal defenders of mankind is extremely misgiven and that rather than being the driving motovation behind their character, is a veiw held only on the tiniest fraction of actual knowledge, albeit held by the greatest number of people.

Dr Death

Tomothy
15-10-2005, 12:20
I'd make it so that the novels written are canon fluff. Because there's nothing more annoying than making a point and referencing a 40k novel and having someone ignore you (especially in favour of their own interpretation) because "that's not canon fluff".

I agree with more aliens (I've been tempted to start writing a short story about an Inquisitor chasing a criminal through a Star Wars-esque multi-racial port-world at the edge of Imperial Space), and more chaos in relation to aliens races and normal non-SM humans. It's been a while since I read the necron codex but I like the history between the necron and the old ones, I'm just not a huge fan of the C'tan.

I think I wouldn't add or subtract from the major mysteries so much, but I would definitely appreciate some things being a little clearer, like how much the general populace knows about chaos, aliens, space marines etc. I understand that it varies from world to world sure. But I'd like some examples, eg on an educated world they still believe in the God Emperor, and they know what Space Marines are, but they don't know about the Horus Heresy and they don't know that there are Chaos Space Marines. They understand that mutants are bad and need to be killed because they are bad. But they don't know about chaos or daemons or any of that. Do they view psykers as bad? If so what about sanctioned psykers?

Sorry, it's been bugging me for a while. But then since there's no definitive answer I can just interpret it how I want I guess.

malika
15-10-2005, 12:29
Perhaps GW should use MvS' 40k pre history article, that thing is simply amazing!

simonr1978
15-10-2005, 12:41
One thing I would change is the random introductions every few years of yet another race/species that everyone forgot to mention in earlier editions/books...

malika
15-10-2005, 13:02
I dont really mind that actually, I mean I really like the Tau and the Necrons. The Necrons need a few tweaks and twists, but MvS' war in heaven story if really good for that I think.

The Eldar seriously need to be updated since they are a mixture of really old fluff with crammed in 'war in heaven' fluff, which isnt too bad, but some parts are kind of contradicting each other at this moment. Make the Eldar more alien, some mystery yes, but let the background for the Eldar be written from an Eldar perspective.

That might be something very interesting, to see the background of each race written from their perspective. So the Eldar would have this very arrogant view of the galaxy, the Ork see everything as a potential challenge for battle, the Tau try to unite everybody under their Greater Good etc etc.

And please..try to move as far away from the good guy-bad guy motive as fast as possible!!!

Vosk
15-10-2005, 15:56
One thing I would change is the random introductions every few years of yet another race/species that everyone forgot to mention in earlier editions/books...

Space is big. Really big. Really, really big. You just won't believe how vastly mind bogglingly big it is. I mean you might think it is a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space! Listen... (and it goes on like that)

Anyway. These races aren't random new introductions. They've always been there - we just haven't explored them yet in the fluff. Or did you think that the Rogue Trader fluff described everything in the galaxy, ever?

Brother Smith
16-10-2005, 14:28
I'm all for more variation. At the moment it seems like every system in the Imperium uses the same equipment, transports etc...

Why can't system A have their own brand of transport? Why do all the Imperial guard regiments use identical equipment? I know about the AdMech etc, so this isn't ranting of that kind.


It's quite a hard thing to get across!

Edit: I think what I meant was that 40k is a setting, as has already been said.

Sojourner
16-10-2005, 14:52
Why can't system A have their own brand of transport? Why do all the Imperial guard regiments use identical equipment? I know about the AdMech etc, so this isn't ranting of that kind.

They do. It's just impossible to put forward in modelling because of the obscene expense.

Kage2020
16-10-2005, 14:55
Perhaps GW should use MvS' 40k pre history article, that thing is simply amazing!
It is interesting, but memory seems to say that it gets glitchy for one reason: it subscribes to the horrendously long timeline imposed in the 'fluff'. The great voids that are created as a result of this do not do the rest of the work justice.

Kage

Bookwrak
16-10-2005, 15:11
Space is big. Really big. Really, really big. You just won't believe how vastly mind bogglingly big it is. I mean you might think it is a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space! Listen... (and it goes on like that)

Anyway. These races aren't random new introductions. They've always been there - we just haven't explored them yet in the fluff. Or did you think that the Rogue Trader fluff described everything in the galaxy, ever?

A million inhabited worlds in the Imperium, and that's only a fraction of the galaxy.

simonr1978
17-10-2005, 16:05
Space is big. Really big. Really, really big. You just won't believe how vastly mind bogglingly big it is. I mean you might think it is a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space! Listen... (and it goes on like that)

Anyway. These races aren't random new introductions. They've always been there - we just haven't explored them yet in the fluff. Or did you think that the Rogue Trader fluff described everything in the galaxy, ever?

I don't have a problem with the new races arriving, the thing I dislike is the way that they're suddenly there and apparently have been for ages.

What I would prefer would be to see the storyline advanced 100 years or so (For example) every once in a while to take into account the appearances of new races.

Phunting
18-10-2005, 15:52
I would change the fact that at present the Imperium is so evil it is getting ridiculus. It's like the bad guys in James Bond. They have such high ambitions it gets all ridiculus.

Make the Imperium less unnecissarily evil and make it into something we can relate to. And make the artwork less "cool" and make the Imperial servants appear human.Nooooooo! Don't you dare! I do relate to the bad guys in James Bond! The fact that the protagonists are really the bad guys is the one and really only reason I love 40k and it's universe. In every film, book and other piece of popular culture there are trite morals about doing the right thing and heroics and honesty and other pap. Let us have one thing that doesn't pander to such rubbish.

I'd like to see the Imperium as a bit more antiquated. I think it can look a bit too pulp sci-fi for my tastes. Black Templars seem to be a step in the right direction, taking imagery from knights and not just being supermen in high-tech armour. I'd like to see the IG look more like a C19th army and have some ridiculously dressed nobles in full C17th garb with wigs, canes and powdered faces.

Apollyon
18-10-2005, 21:49
Have you actually read the story? They arrived in a Thunderhawk so 15 Termies max. In the game Deathwing the have the heraldry iirc there were 12 and to paraphrase from the story "we could not count the number of our enemy"



just to clarify, the Deathwing didnt save an entire planet from a full scale tyranid invasion, they liberated the primitive planets only city from a genestealer brood, the brood apparently possessed industrial steam engines but no firearms and yet still managed to kill 24 of the 30 Terminators who entered the city

(the only named survivors were Lame Bear and Cloud Runner, Weasel Fierce got a stealer claw through his chest and Two Heads Talking died of multiple before the rest even entered the city)

Slazton
18-10-2005, 22:52
I would give Abaddon a right kicking the knees and bring forth a true Champion of Chaos that conquerors Chaos, I would allow the Orks to devour Armageddon, I would then allow the Tau to expand outwards, more Necrons awakening, I would then call forth the Tyranids and more of their swarms, finishing with any other possiable alien threat I could find.

Ahriman would become a God, destroying the Eldar in the process and forever owning the Dark Eldar. They would become his puppets as they kill for him.

The Imperium would collaspe and everything would go to heck and back.

Suddenly the Emperor would be reborn and then we get the true 40K, the ultimate fate.

Come on people, we want to fight that last battle and by rights, 40K is already a 'dying' game, so lets just replay its deaththrows over and over!

Jonus
18-10-2005, 23:02
If i could change the fluff then i would change the core of the universe. Imho the balance between good and evil must be restored. A universe that only harbours war cannot exist.

Life is precious and space is void.

Every race should get a strong good side, because nothing - not even chaos - can only be evil. This good side should be like a glue that keeps the universe toghether and opposes the forces which try to tear it apart.

There have to be more of the things called "love","trust" and "friendship" in 40k.

*ducks and runs away loughing*

Mother_Mercy
18-10-2005, 23:46
The lack of contrast really makes it dull.
I would argue the opposite. In fact, the lack of contrast is what makes 40K fascinating. There is no "seeing things from the other person's point of view", there is no cooperation, there is no search for understanding, there is no respect for life. There is only brute force and mindless tyranny.

The moral spectrum of 40K is very nuanced, but it only ranges from rain-cloud grey to pitch black. And I like that, because I'm so bloody tired of heroes! Anyone who claims to be one of the good guys is lying.

Bmaxwell
19-10-2005, 00:45
a hundred years in 40k is nothing a scout might have just gotten his tacial squad assingment or a inquistor reached that rank i think 1,000 years would be a better jump or at least have that wirteen some where that what would have happened

if anyone knows d&d theres a campagin mod made where the mutilverse collaspes tru its not used often but its kindof cool to know what would have happened

Brother Othorio
19-10-2005, 04:00
Have you actually read the story? Why yes, i have thankyou, have YOU? because nowhere in the story does it mention what type of dropship Deathwing is, it certainly doesnt state that its a Thunderhawk, and Cloud Runner specifically states:

“We number only thirty, against possibly an entire city of Stealers.
The Codex is quite clear on situations like this. We should
virusbomb the planet from orbit,” Cloud Runner said, listening to the
silence settle. Lame Bear and Weasel-Fierce looked at him, appalled.

Hlokk
19-10-2005, 16:53
Lame Bear and Weasel-Fierce looked at him, appalled.

Your joking right? :eek:

Crap names, another thing i'd change in 40k.

Mother_Mercy
19-10-2005, 19:03
It's from the waaay old fluff when Dark Angels were indians instead of monks. Check out the classic DA captain (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=9947010105005&orignav=301117), and you'll see what I mean.

The problem with names and such (as I see it) is that the first editions of 40K were at parts really dorky, with things such as the Jokaero, Space Elves/Dwarves/Orcs (yes, they were actually called that), not to mention names like "Lion El'Johnson" and similar. But as the world evovled into less "D&D in space" certain things had to remain because they were already worked into the background.

LostTemplar
19-10-2005, 19:16
*Preps to commit what can be called heresy in what regards to wh40k*

I'd change these things:

1. The Adeptus Mechanicus, unlike what people seem to think, are not, and CAN not be stupid.

Even the most dumb monkey can build something, but monekys can't probably -fix- it. I'd like to see this more emphasised. Basically, what you have in warhammer 40k, is engineers without scientists. instead they have arqueologists. Thats the only difference.

I love the holy grail relationship they have with the STC, but you -can't- hope to make a sci-fi reader, especially one whom is studyign in any technological field, that the AM doesn't know what it is doing. You always need a very basic compreension of what you have, if you are expecting to build and maintain it for millenia. However...

I can also understand how the decaying of knowledge could happen, especially with the loss of previous technological basis. For instace, only a handful of modern day armers can produce a bronze cannon. the knowledge isn't mainstream.

2. Wether people like it or not, this is a Sci-Fi universe. Although I can understand the current hole GW has blaliantly placed itself in in what regards to the Imperium Armed Forces, they coudl have some more believable designs. The new rhino and predator were things that look advanced. A leman Russ, does -not-.

I'd propose that they somehow, durign the course of a new edition, remodeled this aspect. they'd have to take the timeline a two or three thousand years forward. But thats ok. the universe is a gigantic place, everythign looks slow.

3. Whats this with the current Tyranid speed? Last I heard they floated from system to system. Nwo they have freaking warp drives that allow them to move faster than every other army save for necrons?

4. Show what the Tau are. A repressive system no better than the Imperium, composed of races whom are the Imperium's enemies. Not the Tau's allies. See the difference? i certainly do.

Freak Ona Leash
19-10-2005, 19:46
*Preps to commit what can be called heresy in what regards to wh40k*

I'd change these things:

1. The Adeptus Mechanicus, unlike what people seem to think, are not, and CAN not be stupid.

Even the most dumb monkey can build something, but monekys can't probably -fix- it. I'd like to see this more emphasised. Basically, what you have in warhammer 40k, is engineers without scientists. instead they have arqueologists. Thats the only difference.

I love the holy grail relationship they have with the STC, but you -can't- hope to make a sci-fi reader, especially one whom is studyign in any technological field, that the AM doesn't know what it is doing. You always need a very basic compreension of what you have, if you are expecting to build and maintain it for millenia. However...

I can also understand how the decaying of knowledge could happen, especially with the loss of previous technological basis. For instace, only a handful of modern day armers can produce a bronze cannon. the knowledge isn't mainstream.


Agreed. Yes, the AM is a religous organisation but just becasue of that, it doesnt mean they have to be idiots. No matter what anar says ;)



4. Show what the Tau are. A repressive system no better than the Imperium, composed of races whom are the Imperium's enemies. Not the Tau's allies. See the difference? i certainly do.
Nope, cant od that. All the Tau fanboys wil lsay "No, no, the Tau cant be evil! NOOOOOOOOO!!!!111!!11 We are teh good guyz!" :rolleyes:

Apollyon
19-10-2005, 21:22
I saw that but wasn't 100% sure if that refered to the thirty Termies or thirty uncorrputed members of their tribes (themselves included), rerereading this a total # of 30 Termies seem to be correct but still against the hordes of stealers! The post 2nd ed Termies do not accuratly reflect the fluff. (RT era Deathwing had a 2+ on 2d6 AND +5 feild save.)



Why yes, i have thankyou, have YOU? because nowhere in the story does it mention what type of dropship Deathwing is, it certainly doesnt state that its a Thunderhawk, and Cloud Runner specifically states:

“We number only thirty, against possibly an entire city of Stealers.
The Codex is quite clear on situations like this. We should
virusbomb the planet from orbit,” Cloud Runner said, listening to the
silence settle. Lame Bear and Weasel-Fierce looked at him, appalled.

Kage2020
19-10-2005, 22:31
Now that I think about it, the entire HH CCG 'fluff' would go in the scrap pile...

Kage

Phunting
20-10-2005, 14:46
2. Wether people like it or not, this is a Sci-Fi universe. Although I can understand the current hole GW has blaliantly placed itself in in what regards to the Imperium Armed Forces, they coudl have some more believable designs. The new rhino and predator were things that look advanced. A leman Russ, does -not-.

I'd propose that they somehow, durign the course of a new edition, remodeled this aspect. they'd have to take the timeline a two or three thousand years forward. But thats ok. the universe is a gigantic place, everythign looks slow.But, whether people like it or not, it is originally a Fantasy in Space game. Now whilst we obviously don't want it totally down this road, this is one of the elements I like about 40k and one that makes it unique. I like the fact it doesn't look like Star Trek.

Nazguire
21-10-2005, 11:28
I would change the Adeptus Mechanicus only slightly. I would like them to start inventing new things, or at least a growing faction that does that. Also this whole not knowing how to build anything without blueprints, but somehow manage to keep things maintained for millennia is getting old. Real fast.

LostTemplar
21-10-2005, 15:09
Sadly, those days are, or should be over with. Fantasy in space works fairly well when relating to races. But you can't say that new ships are built (And they are, according to the BFG book) and then, say that you can't build somethign fairly simple.

Here's what I think: The AM can replicate/understand all they produce. But they can't advance it, because its already so advanced, way way beyond mine or your dreams, that only a really talented, interested and genial Tech-Adept can research to improve it. its my belief that the AM wouldnt' be surprised by a today's automobile. Its fairly simple. For a today's computer.

But they'd be impressed, if the computer could speak and do all it wanted for himself, without any aid, AND it was as detailed and structured as a biological being. You can't build ships and make the BFG'er believe that you can't understand simple cog wheels and explosions.

However, my idea of what the AM doesn't understand goes to microscopical technology levels, akin to parts with integrated circuits so fine, that they lack, not the ability to make them, but, the devices to make them.

Does it dismistifies Warhammer 40.000?

Hell no.

Does it get more trekky? No.

But its get coherent.

Vosk
21-10-2005, 15:50
Is it not possible that they understand how things work (but use lots of fanatical religious zeal when explaining it) and are more than capable of employing this knowledge to change or improve upon what they have. However, they don't, since that would be heresy. The machines, as they are, are sacred and perfect in the eyes of their beholders. They see no need to improve upon what is already a divine creation.

Simply put, its not that they can't, but that they won't. That is very interesting, and really stresses just how deep the cult of the machine (and other Imperial cults) can be.

Kage2020
21-10-2005, 19:49
Exactly, the "Adeptus Me-won't-icus", but not necessarily due to some sycophantic relationship with machines. Increase the complexity of the 40k universe rather than keep everything rather simple and Image-laden. Erm.

Yes, well. Just a way of saying that I broadly agree with what was said but find it also more complex. For me there are wide philosophical and factional groups/theories within the adeptus mechanicus, from puritanical (holy machine) types to the more radical (research, STC isn't everything) versions. TechPriests are indoctrinated in knowledge by their place in the hierarchy, so you go from 'Adeptus Me-can't-icus' at the lower echelons to 'Adeptus Me-can-icus' at the upper echelons, with a continuum in between.

But there we go. Take it all with a pinch of salt since interpretetation and preference with the 40k universe are everything.

Kage

kd7svh
21-10-2005, 20:01
Take it all with a pinch of salt since interpretetation and preference with the 40k universe are everything.

One of the best points yet made Kage. That is the great thing with both 40K and FB, you as a player can make it what you want. It isn't pushed as hard as it was in the RT book, but I think at heart GW wants players/groups to use their own vision to play in. The fluff and even the rules are just a framework for us to build on in our own way.

Kage2020
21-10-2005, 20:59
I would say that, most definitely, GW's "vision" of the 40k universe has refined over the years and become far, far more 'future fantasy' than its origins. Orks, the hamfisted 'Progenitor' races being responsible for everything, the really big 'War in Heaven' timeline there to give a sense of 'uniminaginable time', etc., etc. In this case, however, it is a 'what you want to use it for' situation. As a backdrop to a wargame I would imagine that it is more than sufficient. I don't use it as a wargame background, though, so my expectations are a bit higher.

But there we go.

Kage

Shaper Shakra
22-10-2005, 17:00
The Black Library. Doesn't it hold the secrets of the chaos gods? How come no one ever tries to say....find it? If someone had a stock pile of information on me (the great and holy gov't excluded :rolleyes: ) I'd try to find it. I mean, I know there are uber solitaires guarding it, but I think that with the resources available to a GOD they would probably be able to overcome that hurtle if they wanted to. (btw if someone already posted this sorry, didn't have the energy to read all the pages)

Xir
22-10-2005, 20:43
Ahriman did try to find it in the Eye of Terror campaign. He was stopped by the Solitare, if I remember correctly. A concerted attempt by the hordes of Chaos might draw Imperials to it as well.

Let's not forget the Eldar have a god of their own, and I imagine he would struggle mightily to prevent Chaos from taking the Library.

Vosk
22-10-2005, 23:59
The Black Library. Doesn't it hold the secrets of the chaos gods? How come no one ever tries to say....find it? If someone had a stock pile of information on me (the great and holy gov't excluded :rolleyes: ) I'd try to find it. I mean, I know there are uber solitaires guarding it, but I think that with the resources available to a GOD they would probably be able to overcome that hurtle if they wanted to. (btw if someone already posted this sorry, didn't have the energy to read all the pages)

Just because something has the label "God" attached to it doesn't mean that it can instantly do anything it wants, or indeed is even cpable of "anything". That is one of the good things about 40k - even the Gods have their limits, quirks, flaws and general character-building traits.

Tanith Ghost
23-10-2005, 04:02
hmm....
A lot's already been said, but I have a few ideas.

Marines- With over a thousand chapters at large in the galaxy, there's room
for all types of marines. From the nobe and saintly Blood Angels to the, as Mother Mercy put it, 'shoot a non-com to get to the hostile behind her'
Marines Malevolent, the Astartes have a variety of additudes and customs.
Marines can be as nasty or heroic as you want them to be.

Imperial Guard- They carry the weight of the Imperium, and bring the fight to the enemy on their turf in great conquering legions. The IG deserve more wins in the fluff, without apocolytic casualties. The IG should also have options galore, in the list and fluff, with converting being the order of the day. IG land raiders. Beastmen cannon fodder. Squat auxiluries. Dreads would be nice. Ogryns with more developed fluff and emphasis on their faith being their credential to be full fledged imperials. These guys eat the dogmatic sermons of confessors for breakfast. They have no doubts whatsoever in the Emperor's divinity, that should count for something with the Ecclesiary.

Chaos- Less mystery and gloom on their part. Less of this 'lovecraft' thing people toss about like everyone should know about it. They should be portrayed as the failible mortal men and marines they are. They have reasons
for what they do, and the atrocities they commit.
And like loyalists, variety. Everything from feindish piety, such as the Word Bearers, to calous pirates like the Night Lords and Astral Claws.

Orks- Release the beast! The orks are going in the right direction. Bestial, tribal, and ferral. The ever present threat. Insane enough to board space hulks and take them where the currents of the warp chance to move.

Eldar-The only issue I have is their list. They shouldn't have meatsheild troops.Their population is dropping. They can't afford attrition wars for any reason. A swift striking elite force would suit them better.

Dark Eldar- If they are to be dropped(unlikely but still), hand em over to the many enemies they're racked up. Eldar, IG on many worlds, White Scars, ork pirates, and even Tau. Otherwise, make them darker and more feindish, a true evil race.

Tau- don't give them more planets. Take a few away if anything.
Show their naive veiws getting them into trouble with dark powers and sinister forces they can't begin to comprehend the true nature of(The story where the tau commander thinks he killed Slaanesh was good). Some scalding defeats would also serve to wisen them up too(A full on ork WAAGH or a proper hive fleet for example).

Nids- Make it clear what kind of backup will follow Leviathan. Clear up if they have planty more waiting to get into the proverbial resturant, or are they on their last gasps, with no more big hive fleets left. If the former, scale back their gains. The Imperium is tough prey to say the least. Even the weakest agri-world fights back like a bear robbed of it's young. If the latter, show that
elusive glimmer of hope. Show that the night is almost over, and things are at their darkest, rightbefore dawn. If Leviathan was the last of the great hive fleets, it should be shown that while the splinters ravage far and wide,
they can be defeated.

All that strikes me for now.

malika
23-10-2005, 11:51
I feel like commenting on your post, but please dont take offense since I dont want to offend you:)


Marines- With over a thousand chapters at large in the galaxy, there's room
for all types of marines. From the nobe and saintly Blood Angels to the, as Mother Mercy put it, 'shoot a non-com to get to the hostile behind her'
Marines Malevolent, the Astartes have a variety of additudes and customs.
Marines can be as nasty or heroic as you want them to be.
Very true, however Im tired of the constant "goodie marines who love humanity so much bla bla" and the "these marines have a terrible secret muahahha bla bla", there can also be marines who are between this. The Marines Malevolent are a great example, they dont have their "dark secret" but they do see themselves as superior and justified in killing inferiors.


Imperial Guard- They carry the weight of the Imperium, and bring the fight to the enemy on their turf in great conquering legions. The IG deserve more wins in the fluff, without apocolytic casualties. The IG should also have options galore, in the list and fluff, with converting being the order of the day. IG land raiders. Beastmen cannon fodder. Squat auxiluries. Dreads would be nice. Ogryns with more developed fluff and emphasis on their faith being their credential to be full fledged imperials. These guys eat the dogmatic sermons of confessors for breakfast. They have no doubts whatsoever in the Emperor's divinity, that should count for something with the Ecclesiary.

Hmm not everything should be pulled back in there. Beastmen are great, but Land Raiders and Dreadnoughts should be kept with the Space Marines...well Land Raiders can be in the Imperial Army (pre heresy) but not in the Imperial Guard (post heresy). Keep the Squats out for now since they are officially dead! (please dont start the whole Squat debate). Ogryns should be developped further though. I suggest checking out this thread in the Anargo Sector Project: Ogres- Erm, I mean Ogryns (http://anargo-sector.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=118) Join up if you like


Chaos- Less mystery and gloom on their part. Less of this 'lovecraft' thing people toss about like everyone should know about it. They should be portrayed as the failible mortal men and marines they are. They have reasons
for what they do, and the atrocities they commit.
And like loyalists, variety. Everything from feindish piety, such as the Word Bearers, to calous pirates like the Night Lords and Astral Claws.

Hmm I suggest a smaller focus on the Space Marines and more on the cults, traitor guard, mutants, chaos aliens, daemons. More interesting I think! I would definately add a level of bitter insanity amongst the Chaos Space Marines, they might have reason and ideologies they follow, but in the 10.000 years spending in the warp twisted their minds. Iron Warriors who keep on building and upgrading siege machines over and over and over until they lost the original idea, but they still keep on going:chrome:
I think we should remove the Astral Claws as a Chaos force, let them be a force outside Chaos and the Imperium, more like the megalomaniacal Space Marines who believe themselves to be the true rules of the Imperium, not the weak human bureaucrats.


Orks- Release the beast! The orks are going in the right direction. Bestial, tribal, and ferral. The ever present threat. Insane enough to board space hulks and take them where the currents of the warp chance to move.
They should still be capable of making their own stuff, I prefere to see them as how GW has currently portraited Khorne...uselessly bloodthirsty, mercilessly killing everything. And Khorne should be more a honourable God like back in the day, warrior's pride and all that, so not killing unarmed civilians and stuff like that.


Tau- don't give them more planets. Take a few away if anything.
Show their naive veiws getting them into trouble with dark powers and sinister forces they can't begin to comprehend the true nature of(The story where the tau commander thinks he killed Slaanesh was good). Some scalding defeats would also serve to wisen them up too(A full on ork WAAGH or a proper hive fleet for example).

I think growth would be a great thing, a cool contrast to the rest of the 40k universe, everybody is sort of dying and weakening, but the Tau are new and growing! However a very nasty Ork invasion would be great, but it would only strengthen the Tau in the end:evilgrin:


Nids- Make it clear what kind of backup will follow Leviathan. Clear up if they have planty more waiting to get into the proverbial resturant, or are they on their last gasps, with no more big hive fleets left. If the former, scale back their gains. The Imperium is tough prey to say the least. Even the weakest agri-world fights back like a bear robbed of it's young. If the latter, show that
elusive glimmer of hope. Show that the night is almost over, and things are at their darkest, rightbefore dawn. If Leviathan was the last of the great hive fleets, it should be shown that while the splinters ravage far and wide,
they can be defeated.

It is rumoured that the current Hive Fleets attacking our universe now are nothing but a scouting force of the real deal:D