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kris_kapsner
07-04-2008, 02:23
In my last tournament I ran into two situations of "clipping" that I wanted to ask about. Both took place in the same game against a vampire counts player.

1) I leaped a bloodthirster over newly created zombie units into the flank of a unit of skeletons containing his general and two other necromancers (all in the middle with a skeleton on each side). He charged a unit of zombies from behind the skeletons and was barely able to reach my bloodthirster with a corner of his unit. He couldn't collapse down on my flank because his newly created zombie units were still sitting there right behind my bloodthirster. So, he "clipped" my demon with just a corner of a unit of 40 zombies. Then, he moved the other newly created units out of the way and I allowed him to close the gap with his unit and to maximize. After 4 rounds of combat with the bloodthirster flanked, he finally "popped" when I rolled a 10 for a break test when I lost by one. Yikes!

So, did we do that right? Should the zombies have been able to charge my bloodthirster when they could barely touch an angled corner to him when his own units were in the way?

2) The second one I was more frustrated with. I charged into a unit of grave guard with khorne chosen knights. We were both 5 wide so my unit was hanging out each side. I won combat and many of them fell. He charged a unit of zombies into the front corner of my knights. I won again and many crumbled. In fact, the rest of the grave guard went away as well as many zombies. Then, since I had won combat and we were only touching corner to corner with our units still in combat (my knights and his zombies) I wanted to "reform" to slide over to maximize against his unit. He said I could reform but couldn't slide over. So, I was stuck in a "clipping" situation for the next turn of combat where I of course couldn't do enough wounds with one knight to overcome his static combat resolution and "auto-broke" due to being out numbered by a fear causing enemy.

So, is that correct? Is a unit not supposed to maximize in 7th edition to keep a ridiculous situation like this from happening? It seems absolutely insane that the knights or zombies wouldn't slide to fight things out, that only one zombie would fight one knight while the rest just stand there and watch! I thought 7th edition got rid of those stupid things from happening.

xragg
07-04-2008, 04:43
My book is in the car, so dont quote me, but i am pretty sure you are right on both accounts. If a unit cant fit cause of its own unit is in the way, then it cant make it. If at the end of combat, a "clip" has occured, the winner can reform onto the loser as long as it is only fighting one unit and brings more models into contact by doing so.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-04-2008, 05:01
So, did we do that right? Should the zombies have been able to charge my bloodthirster when they could barely touch an angled corner to him when his own units were in the way?

If a unit can reach it's target it's a charge. It doesn't matter how much or how little you can actually get into contact, if you can reach, it's a legal charge. Just about the only thing wrong was that you let the zombies slide into combat after the other unit was away. That is not covered by the rules.




So, is that correct? Is a unit not supposed to maximize in 7th edition to keep a ridiculous situation like this from happening? It seems absolutely insane that the knights or zombies wouldn't slide to fight things out, that only one zombie would fight one knight while the rest just stand there and watch! I thought 7th edition got rid of those stupid things from happening.


Perfectly correct. There is no sliding in Warhammer!
It's something you can do if you both agree on it, but it's clearly against the rules. What you can do is expand your frontage if you win, but that's likely impossible in this situation(no back rank in the knights). There is no 'reform' into combat or anything like that. You can expand the front rank by bringing models from the rear rank forward(as long as you can still make a legal formation), or you can turn to face an enemy to the flank, but by the rules there are no reforming and no sliding.

Lordmonkey
07-04-2008, 05:20
I leaped a bloodthirster over newly created zombie units into the flank of a unit of skeletons containing his general and two other necromancers (all in the middle with a skeleton on each side). He charged a unit of zombies from behind the skeletons and was barely able to reach my bloodthirster with a corner of his unit. He couldn't collapse down on my flank because his newly created zombie units were still sitting there right behind my bloodthirster. So, he "clipped" my demon with just a corner of a unit of 40 zombies.

This really needs a diagram, but I can vaguely see what is going on here - if the zombies could not move during the charge such that they would bring more models into combat, then they cannot bring more models than this into contact. However, if they are in range, and if it is possible for them to contact your bloodthirster within their charge range, then the charge will succeed.


So, did we do that right? Should the zombies have been able to charge my bloodthirster when they could barely touch an angled corner to him when his own units were in the way?

If the zombies cannot physically fit through to meet your 'thirster, then they cannot charge. It's the same when dealing with interposing terrain, AFAIK. The unit would first need to reform in order to squeeze through the gap.


Then, he moved the other newly created units out of the way and I allowed him to close the gap with his unit and to maximize.

Nope - expanding frontage is the closest thing to this, but the models can only come from rear ranks. So he could have brought more models into contact, but he would have to sacrifice rear ranks in doing so.


He said I could reform but couldn't slide over.

He was correct.

xragg
07-04-2008, 05:39
After looking into it, I guess its not official rules. But if you look at pg 6 of the FAQ
http://us.games-workshop.com/errata/assets/warhammer_v7_faq.pdf
it addresses how clippling should be resolved in friendly games.

Famder
07-04-2008, 06:19
There is no rule for sliding, but the guy was being a real **** if he didn't let you slide after you let him slide his zombies against your Bloodthirster.

Gabacho Mk.II
07-04-2008, 06:57
There is no rule for sliding, but the guy was being a real **** if he didn't let you slide after you let him slide his zombies against your Bloodthirster.





Seconded.

[we have all played against this type of player at one time or another]

warlord hack'a
07-04-2008, 08:30
or to quote the FAQ:



In all these extreme situations, if you want to play
literally by the rules, you have to live with the clipping
and continue with the game.
However, you should also feel free to agree with your
opponent upon any gentlemanly solution which could
avoid clipping situations. The best solution is normally
to slide sideways the chargers (or the unti that won the
fight), in order to bring more models in to the fight.
This is not technically allowed by the letter of the rules,
but if both players agree to do this, the game will benefit
in realism and fun (you get to roll lots more dice!).
The important thing to understand when you come
across this sort of situation is that clipping is not in the
spirit of the game and every effort should be made to
avoid it. It just looks ugly!

so basically: either no shuffling of units or shuffling of units in both situations.

Milgram
07-04-2008, 08:56
for the first situation a diagramm would be needed. but as I understand the situation, I would like to add something:

a unit can only do a charge to the flank, if they start their move in the flank of the charged unit.

(it sounded a bit odd to me: zombies start behind the skellies and then try to flank a BT that is in front of the skellies?)

warlord hack'a
07-04-2008, 08:56
and to avoid confusion, the thing that is NOT allowed, regardless of the agreement you make with your opponent regarding 'shuffling': when unit A and B are already in combat (eg. the above mentioned chaos knights and grave guard) and unit C (eg. the above mentioned zombies) charges into the already ongoing combat, then NOTHING is shifted, shuffled or reformed and you stay as you are.

DeathlessDraich
07-04-2008, 11:24
Should the zombies have been able to charge my bloodthirster when they could barely touch an angled corner to him when his own units were in the way?

When moving chargers 2 conditions are needed for a successful charge
a) They do not exceed their movement allowance when the chargers *first* comes into contact with the charged unit *in the right zone* - a corner should be sufficient
b) the chargers should 'fit in' i.e. there is sufficient space allowed by terrain and other units to allow at least one model to be in base contact and the rest of the unit to rank up correctly.

So the zombies' charge was successful


He couldn't collapse down on my flank because his newly created zombie units were still sitting there right behind my bloodthirster. So, he "clipped" my demon with just a corner of a unit of 40 zombies.

No choice there but it is still alright to mutually agree to maximise.


Then, he moved the other newly created units out of the way and I allowed him to close the gap with his unit and to maximize. After 4 rounds of combat with the bloodthirster flanked, he finally "popped" when I rolled a 10 for a break test when I lost by one.

Not sure what happens here but it seems you have agreed to shift units in order to maximise.
Strictly speaking, this should not have been allowed since part of the game is to correctly judge, not just distance but 'allowable space' when declaring chargers.
Most players will discuss the possibility of 'clipping' and how it should be resolved during the charge declarations sub phase.

Your opponent gains from this and in fairness he should then balance it by conceding other similar situations in your favour later in the game.


2) Then, since I had won combat and we were only touching corner to corner with our units still in combat (my knights and his zombies) I wanted to "reform" to slide over to maximize against his unit. He said I could reform but couldn't slide over. So, I was stuck in a "clipping" situation for the next turn of combat

The rule here is Free Manoeuvres.
The combat winner is allowed a free *change in formation* - increasing the size of the front rank only.
A reform is not allowed and sliding is also not allowed

There is a way out of your situation:
As soon as one knight is killed remove the knight in base contact and the unit of knights will be disengaged from combat - pg 46

Milgram
07-04-2008, 11:52
There is a way out of your situation:
As soon as one knight is killed remove the knight in base contact and the unit of knights will be disengaged from combat - pg 46

nope, fighting models are removed last. well, you could argue that 'every knight is in the fighting rank', but... they're not.

EvC
07-04-2008, 11:55
It's true, if you're caught in a clipping situation, you probably won't be able to get out of it (especially if your troops are only in one rank). Could really do with an errata allowing troops in the front rank out of combat to slide over.

warlord hack'a
07-04-2008, 12:25
now, as per the FAQ, it is by mutual consent.something to discuss before deployment would be my suggestion.

Atrahasis
07-04-2008, 12:56
nope, fighting models are removed last. well, you could argue that 'every knight is in the fighting rank', but... they're not.

Combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting casualties, ie models are removed evenly from both ends of the rearmost rank. In single ranked units, this can mean that the normal process of casualty removal results in the units becoming disengaged if clipping is going on.

Masque
07-04-2008, 15:38
Combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting casualties, ie models are removed evenly from both ends of the rearmost rank. In single ranked units, this can mean that the normal process of casualty removal results in the units becoming disengaged if clipping is going on.

BRB, Page 46, Redress The Ranks
"If a unit is engaged from its rear, or if a unit in a single line is engaged to the flanks, removing casualties could force some enemy units to lose contact with the unit. In these rare cases, move these units forward to keep in contact with the models they are killing (see Diagram 36.2)."

I think this principle should be applied even when the units that lose contact need to be moved sideways rather than forward to maintain contact.

brotherk
07-04-2008, 16:25
a realistic solution would be to twist each unit around its centre til they both faced square on. And then move each fwd into contact.

Borthcollective
07-04-2008, 19:14
Realism has no place here.

Delmont
07-04-2008, 20:24
For some it does and in friendly games its all about both sides having fun.

This however was a tournament. The rules should be followed as they are written. Both of the above examples are against the rules, his units that were in the way should not have been shuffled and the knights can't slide over. Kris was nice to let him do it with his zombies and his opponent didn't return the favor. Says something about his opponent.

Greyfire
07-04-2008, 20:35
It seems a little disproportionate, the way he behaved. Your were nice enough to allow an entire unit to be "pushed" out of the way to improve the combat, but he wouldn't follow the advice from the FAQ?

Doesn't sound very sporting, at least to me. But tournaments can make nice people mean, sometimes.

Seems like an odd play to me, too, since you weren't going to break his undead. He could have moved that zombie unit out of the way on his turn and then followed up with a charge from a better position on the following turn, or even during the magic phase if he was lucky, giving him a much better chance of winning combat, and all legal to boot.

Then again, someone tried to charge a unit of mine, and during the charge move 4" straight into a different unit that had just fled that turn, perform his one time wheel there to aim back at the charged unit and then finish his 6" charge. I couldn't find anything against that other than it would not have resulted in maximizing the models (one of mine would have been stranded). It seemed a little cheesy, too.

Famder
07-04-2008, 21:06
Then again, someone tried to charge a unit of mine, and during the charge move 4" straight into a different unit that had just fled that turn, perform his one time wheel there to aim back at the charged unit and then finish his 6" charge. I couldn't find anything against that other than it would not have resulted in maximizing the models (one of mine would have been stranded). It seemed a little cheesy, too.
He can't do that. He didn't declare the charge against the fleeing unit so he can't move into them. And if he did then he couldn't charge the other unit because it was a viable target before he declared his charge and therefore not able to be redirected into.

Atrahasis
07-04-2008, 21:23
Famder, you're playing by 6th ed rules.

kris_kapsner
08-04-2008, 18:36
A lot of good opinions here. Both from a rules stand point and from a sportsmanship/common sense standpoint. I started the post and hadn't actually read the FAQ before. So, I read the section on "clipping" and I was pleased to see the following paragraph in there.

"The important thing to understand when you come across this sort of situation is that clipping is not in the spirit of the game and every effort should be made to avoid it. It just looks ugly!"

That's exactly how I felt about it.

The nice thing is that even though my bloodthirster "popped" out of existence because he was scared of the bunch of zombies on his flank and my chaos knights broke and were lost automatically due to being clipped by another zombie unit, I managed a tie for that game. In my other two games I scored a maximum win for battle points and scored well for my painting and sportsmanship scores.

I pulled out a "Best Overall" finish! Woot! :)

But, I just wanted to check on the clipping issue for future games. The first one I didn't mind at all. It didn't make sense to me for his unit to have to stay there angled against my bloodthirster with only a single corner touching him. But, not being able to continue to maximize for combat didn't rest well with me when it came to my knights. It just didn't make sense to me. I know that the rules don't allow it. But, one should always try to strive for the "spirit of the game" as GW puts it and get as many models fighting in combat as possible. :)