PDA

View Full Version : Tactica: Daemons



Pages : [1] 2

John Vaughan
07-04-2008, 02:44
Okay, lets gt this started since there are many of you who have access via GW to the new Daemons rules.

For starters, since I am a Tzeentch player, I need to get out my idea. I have played a few games with the new rules, which are amazing. Heres a rough idea of an army list for 2000pts that combines both Daemons and Mortals for magic nastiness:

Lord of Change
-2 heads
-Master of Mortals

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

Chaos Chariot
-Mark of Tzeentch

10 Chaos Warriors
-Mark of Tzeentch

10 Chaos Warriors
-Mark of Tzeentch

10 Chaos Warriors
-Mark of Tzeentch

10 Chaos Warriors
-Mark of Tzeentch


Okay, this looks like a lot, and that's because it is. Essentially, I would have a lvl 4 caster, 3 lvl 2 casters, and 2 lvl 1 casters (the two horrors units). All of the marks and power vortexes together would total to 20 power dice each magic phase. Ouch. Not to mention it is all from the Lore of Tzeentch. The idea behind this army is to produce buckets of magic, and then to use the flying casters to pound the crap out of ranked units with magic. I tried a list similar to this, and it was devastating against the Slaan armyI was facing.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Edit: My bad, that totals to 21 power dice

SilverWarlock
07-04-2008, 03:22
well then

It's a good thing that you can't mix mortals and demons under the new demon rulebook (possibly you can add demons to mortals later on when mortals are reedited).

Master of mortals is also no longer an option (actually I'm pretty sure it never was on the LOC).

Still, good initiative starting the demon tactica thread.

John Vaughan
07-04-2008, 03:28
Actually, master of mortals is in the new book (unless I am horribly mistaken), and the Lord of Change has no less than 8 other upgrade options in the new rules.

Sidequestion: What is rumored of the new mortals? I havent heard anything.

SilverWarlock
07-04-2008, 03:49
you are horribly mistaken, go check the rumor roundup on page 84 of the demon rumors

there is no mixing of mortals and demons for this demon codex

the mortals are getting a white dwarf list in the summer and it is not yet known whether they will be allowed to take demons.

John Vaughan
07-04-2008, 03:55
Ouch. I wish you were a cruel horrible liar, but seeing how that is unlikely...that makes me sad...
Well, it's not really worth me soap-boxing that right now.

Back on track to a NEW daemon (wish)list:

Lord of Change
-2 heads
-Master of Mortals

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

Herald of Tzeentch
-Winged Horror
-Power Vortex

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

10 Horrors
-Icon of Sorcery

If there are points left, flamers are a good option. This list works similarily to the erronious one listed above, but there are less power dice and more despel. I suppose thats cool with me. Anyone else have army ideas? I feel like I'm talking to thin air...

SilverWarlock
07-04-2008, 04:34
my slaaneshi army is posted

I really am not sure about your list. Super super fragile if anything comes into hand to hand.

how do you deal with multiple knight units (brets) or a gunline (empire, they deploy back, your horror dice and most of the other dice are wasted for a turn or two, they get to shoot which means you quickly lose spell casting ability, and then they might even have knights or a tank around that you would have trouble killing at the best of times).

Your damage output is high, but I am not sure the extreme fragility isn't worse. Not to mention that magic is pretty random.

Quick look at your list versus my slaanesh list, you get 1 turn of magic within 18 inches (and you cant play around with the heralds leaving their units because there are way too many mage hunters). In that turn you have to destroy a keeper of secrets (otherwise he will just munch a herald and a unit a turn, or the LOC if he catches him), 2 units of seekers, 2 lone fiends, 15 furies. Because any of those units can hit your lines and kill horrors in a bad way. Also note that 5 furies can hold up your LOC for a turn (with my general within 12 inches) to set up a charge for the keeper, and that is bye bye LOC.

So yes, it is a decent list but very one dimensional, and as such has problems against the following:
-excessive speed (because combat effectively shuts down a lot of your magic)
-high toughness or armor (because your magic missiles wont cut it anymore)
-heavy shooting (because your units are fragile and will take serious damage from shooting)

John Vaughan
10-04-2008, 05:15
I can argue the second point, though your others are valid. The weakest posible strength if a Tzeentch magic missile is 2, and that's if I roll crapshots. The highest is 10. I dont know anything that can stand up to that kind of punishment, and especially not 2D6 hits at AT LEAST str 5. (I had fun demolishing a saurus unit when I rolled box cars on both rolls!). So I agree that this is a very fraile army, and I know that. The reliance is entirely in the characters, whihc doesnt work so well against empire or skaven. Against heavily ranked armies though, it worked like a charm for me.

I have been mulling over recently how to cope with mortals AND daemons, and I think that it will simple come downto me playing both armies. With a pure daemon army, I think I might want bloodletters and horrors. Thats about it. I already have 6 (!!!) juggernaughts from the Storms of Chaos, so I might use those.

TIZNE
10-04-2008, 07:57
I don't try to be mean but IMHO, a "Deamonic Tactica" should discuss about other kinds of topics, something more generic or theorical. Not an army list, or at least not yet.

Let us first find the weaknesses and strengths of each unit in the army, then we could talk about armies.


John Vaughan, by making a "Horrors only" list, the weakness of your amy can be indicated only by pointing out horrors' weakness (paraphrasing what has already been said):
-they badly s*ck in close combat
-combat effectively shuts down a lot of your magic
-your units are fragile and will take serious damage from shooting

But hey, your last idea is good: if horrors are poor close combat fighters, lets pair them with close combat mosters! Juggernauts!
That will make an army much more difficult to disrupt, but, do they really get along well?......
Discuss! Lets unravel the new powers of the Ruinous Four!

oCoYoRoAoKo
10-04-2008, 09:12
hi all,

to get the ball rolling, ive done a quick modification of the slaanesh tactica on daemonic legion, brought it up to the new rules set and changed a few bits that arent availiable as troops now. its not great but some of it is still viable under the new book:

Down the Dark Path Number One:
This is the method that relies on numbers in combat (to a point anyways) and thus is infantry based. In my opinion slaanesh daemons are one of the few armies that can pull this off effectively due to the fact that the infantry is faster than average and the support of the infantry is blindingly fast as well. As we all know the movement phase wins the game.

In this army typically a bunch of choices are made for you already. IE the first thing you need is a solid center (solid for non-nurlge daemons anyways) and this will be composed at least two blocks of daemonettes and very often 3. Usually these blocks will be run 16 or 20 strong with a standard and a musician. The size of the unit depends on how you want the infantry to preform. 6x3 gives you slaanesh's magic number (which will surely make him/her happy) as well as give you fairly good killing power. If you instead choose to run 16 strong they'll be in a 5x4 formation and chances are you'll be a player who feels the extra dices of killing power is not worth the loss of a rank bonus. I may point out at this point you might as well bite the bullet and go for the killing power. Why? because against anything barring knights and armoured tanks (IE iron breakers and chosen warriors) your likely going to get that extra wound to make up for the loss of a rank. Also if you run 5x4 after you lose a single model you lose that third rank bonus anyways. I also know what else said players are thinking. Your now going to ask why can't I run 5x4 and as soon as a lose a model or two reform them. Well the answer is you could, for a great deal of wasted time and more exposure to your easy to kill units (I'm refering to the result of open missile on said units). Why in a fragile and fast army are you going to sit there and lose time and the intiative of the game? As soon as you do that your reacting to your opponent instead of making him react to you which is excatly what you need to do should you want to win with slaanesh IMO.

At this point I'd also like to explain the command structureof daemonette units and why I never take champions. Frankly it all comes down to for the cost of another daemonette I'd take that rather than a champion. You don't need to accept challanges and the only instances in which you would (like a ridden monster) that's what your prince is suppose to be taking care of. It's really that simple for me.

Thus your first real choice is how strong of a center you want, IE 2 or 3 units of daemonettes. The second choice by way of playing with infantry is made for you. You will need a herald for those combats in which you lose by a single pip and thus have a chance to go pop. Personally any chance to go pop is not one I'm willing to risk so if I can't ensure I'm winning combats I want to know I can survive losing a round or two. So a herald with the BSB is a must.

Next you need to figure out your support units for the daemonettes. Each infantry unit needs at least one supporting unit or character is the golden rule. Now since our characters are not really fighters (heralds) or are off doing more important things (princes and Greater Daemons) every one of your daemonette units is going to require support. Now the descion becomes what type of support. Personally I'd go with a single unit of pleasure fiends and two units of mounted daemonettes. Instead I'm going to leave you hanging until my unit evaluation so you can choose what you want to fulfil the support roles depending on your playing style. The same infact goes with characters.

Thus the overall tactics of such a style is too run your daemonette units up as fast as possible and engage in combat. By that time your support units should have eliminated missile threats and should be coming back to help out your combat blocks for quick combats. Also with the herald don't be afraid to sit and accept a charge if it means your support can charge in next turn rather than charging in and having to go 2 combat rounds before your support comes in.

Down The Dark Path Number Two:
Now this is the path I play and it's based on our extremely fast "support" troops, which are frankly what wins the battles anyways. Thus in this style foot daemonettes are used for a couple of reasons. The first is too take up the core spots, the second is too be bait. If you lucky then a third reason is to mop up but usually mine are dead by the time there's stuff to mop up.

Personally I find a single prince good enough but some people seriously depend on their characters. If any event my recommendation is fore three foot units of 10 models. Don't bother with any command, said units are there to be a distraction and die not to kill things.

Support choices really come down to two things. Mtd ettes and Fiends and frankly there's no need to choose since you'll be using all of them. 2 units of fiends and 3 of mtd ettes is what I've found to be the best set up.

This army is like elves, easy and fun to play once you know what to do but incredibly frustrating until you do. Picking targets and combinding charges is an art, one you'll have to master to use this successfully. The army pics it's self so instead of rambling on any more about this I'll just jump to the troop section.

Troop Overview

Daemonettes:
Ah the blessed little nymph's that make up the true core of our list. Useful blighters and then again they aren't. Daemonettes are the epitome of the rest of the army. Fast, graceful, fragile and unequipped with can openers.

Like elves they excel at killing low to mid toughness troops with no to little armour (think elves, Orcs, skaven, Zombies) and are the daemons counter to the horde army assuming you can keep them from getting flanked. Rear charges are fine though as it usually means you get more kills than the rear bonus provided. They can hold their own but don't expect them to take a charge or charge knights or grave guard and the like and win. They will usually be pounded back into the warp in short order. This is why I'm leary of taking a foot heavy daemonette army as many armies these days have lots of cav attachted and your prince can't be everywhere.

Pros:
Fast Infantry, lots of attacks, Ward Save, Armor Piercing
Cons:
No toughness, shot down easily, cannot be counted on against any elite troop, loads of points for a decent size

Mounted Daemonettes
Ahhhh my favorite troop type. Before the daemonic legion lists I was known to take armies of 6 or 7 units of these plus a prince and an exalted. It didn't do well but was a blast to play with and against heh. Instead of curb my enthusiasm of these puppies and only take 3 such units. m10 with fast cav is brilliant. It allows you to remove a great lot of missile units which are a huge threat to the rest of your army. I use them as missile unit and warmachine killers. If they're still alive after than then use them for rear charges but don't try and set up flank charges with them unless there's nothing else for them to do. Also keep in mind how brilliant they are at hunting down lone wizards and such.

Pros:
Blinding Speed, enough attacks to down other light units, fast cav, cheaper then they used to be
Cons:
Easy to kill with missle/magic fire

Fiends
Frankly I can't get enough of these guys just like Mtd daemonettes. They can't do as much but what they do, they're better at. What do they do? They flank charge people and brilliantly too. With US3 per model it allows you to start off with a mear unit of 3 and be confinded when they hit combat they'll still remove ranks. Also because they aren't fast cav they are better at doing flank charges since they can't dipsy doole through your opponents lines, espcially with that big base size.

In a pinch they can go after missile units as well however only do this if you've got a straight line to the target. If there's any march blocks or things in the way your unlikely to get there with all the huge wheelings you'll have to do.

Lastly delight in their T4 unlike the res of your army barring characters

Pro's:
Fast, US3, T4
Con's:
Base size, lack of fast cav

*article contributed by Ratrek, modified by oCoYoRoAoKo*

Cy.

LKHERO
10-04-2008, 09:55
Sweet, let's do Daemons. I'll do my favorite: Khorne!

Let's go over some of my favorite setups and unit combinations atm:

Here are the exact Bloodthirster stats taken directly from the Book:

Fly, Terror, Large Target, Daemon.

M8, WS10, S6, T6, W5, I9, A7, LD9

If I was to take a Bloodthirster (and I will in 2250 and a rarity at 2000), I will be giving him his full 100 points worth of Daemonic Gifts. That includes Immortal Fury (re-roll all misses), Obsidian Armor (all magical weapons in base contact become mundane and gives him a 3+ Armor save), and Axe of Khorne (Killing Blow). For things that are extra tough and absolutely need that +1 Strength to Str7 (like vs. Treemen), I will be taking Firestorm Blade instead of Axe of Khorne (since it counts as Flaming too). Vs. Karl Franz + 2x Steam Tanks, Awesome Strength + Immortal Fury is enough to rip heads off anything. Awesome Strength makes me S10, enough to rip through any armor in the game as well as wounding everything on 2s.

With the new Book, I will only consider three key combinations:

Bloodthirster (Obsidian Armor, Axe of Khorne, Immortal Fury) = 550
Bloodthirster (Awesome Strength, Immortal Fury) = 550
Bloodthirster (Obsidian Armor, Firestorm Blade, Immortal Fury) = 550

The first combination is the overall best: This allows me to get out 7 attacks at WS10 with Killing Blow, re-rolling all misses. Any magical weapon in base contact with me is completely nullified; Tyrion, Grimgor, Karl Franz, I laugh at you.

The second combination is to deal with ridiculous threats such as Karl Franz + 2x Steam Tanks. Steam Tanks basically pop to a Bloodthirster with Aweome Strength.

The last combination is your answer to Wood Elf Treeman. 7 Flaming attacks at S7 , WS10 re-rolling all misses means you laugh at any tree in the game (or Tomb Kings even).

I would never tool my Bloodthirster out defensively. His job is to run into a unit or character and utterly smash it into the ground (as if our other units don't do that well enough). Hence why the runner up combination is:

Bloodthirster (Immortal Fury, Axe of Khorne, Firestorm Blade, Armor of Khorne)

The only thing that I absolutely loathe is depending on luck. 7 attacks from the Bloodthirster is good enough. Why chance it with Dark Insanity for 55 points? (in case you didn't know, Dark Insanity replaces the BT's attacks with 2D6+2).

Now.. the Skulltaker:

He can Killing Blow ANYTHING in the game regardless of unit size. Dwarf Lord with Shieldbearers? Dead on a 5+. Star Dragon? Dead on a 5+.

A Skulltaker on Juggernaught is 200 points of pure awesome. 14" charge with 0+ Armor save and MR(2). Did I mention he's WS9, S6 and Hatred? (Hatred applies to his Jugger too) Yeah, he's awesome.

What I absolutely love about him is his ability to kill any size model on a 5+ for 200 points. Any tooled up Lord-class hero has to be very very careful while the Skulltaker is on the field.

Last are the Heralds of Khorne.

What can I say? For 100 points, they're amazing. Throw on a 50 point upgrade for a Juggernaught and give them a 0+ armor save with Armor of Khorne (15 point upgrade). They can also give Hatred to the Bloodletters unit he's in, as well as his mount with his Locus of Khorne ability.

Take a BSB and give him some Khorne-lovin' magic banner such as this one:
Great Standard of Sundering - After deployment (after spells are selected), but before the roll for first turn and the beginning of the game, pick a Lore of Magic. All spells cast from that Lore have a -2 Penalty to their Casting rolls. Additionally, all spells cast from the Lore of Light will miscast if you roll double 1's, double 2's, or double'3 (instead of just double 1's, which is the usual).

Great stuff.

Furies are great, Bloodletters aren't worth it (unless you take them in blocks of 20+ with Skull Totem (always march)), Fleshhounds should be considered in every list you make, and Khorne is all about the Skulltaker and the Heralds (Juggernaught upgrade is a MUST). And the Bloodcrushers of course!

(Juggers have 2 WS5, S5 Killing Blow attacks by themselves. 2 wounds each and MR1).

Your Mum Rang
10-04-2008, 12:08
Want to know the key to success with the new Daemons? Mix marks freely. Simple as that really.

EDIT: Let me expand.

I've been thinking a lot about the strongest setups for each of the slots.

Characters
Obviously you take what you want but I am looking for the greatest level of synergy here. For me there are 2 options. One is the cheap route and that is a lone Bloodthirser or Heralds. As the cheapest of the GD's he can be a bargain, allowing you more points on troops.

However, I think that if you're not opposed to really mixing it up, a Slaaneshi character section is strongest. Lvl 4 Keeper has great spells but also awesome combat ability. 6 S6 ASF attacks with Armour Piercing can hurt! Add to this the mega cheap Masque and your opponent really needs to worry about Terror checks on his prize units. Then, you need a BSB. You could also do with supporting your Kipper so a Tzeentch BSB will do nicely with Master of Magic to allow him to choose a good support Lore. The -2LD banner will add to your LD manipulation.

Troops
First thing I would like is an anvil. There are only 2 choices here; Plaguebearers and Horrors. Now I have a Tzeentch Herald so I think that Horrors will give the most support to the army as a whole. 40 is ideal because they can take some punishment with their 4+ ward and give the list another lvl 4 caster so we now have 10 levels of magic in the list.

Second thing I would like are some flankers and since I think Daemonettes are rubbish with S3, 2 small units of Bloodletters can flank the Horrors and devour anything they tie up.

Also, since you plan to be scaring things away with LD manipulation. A unit or 2 of Furies to set up crossfires can be priceless!

Special
Again only 2 stand out for me. The first are Flesh Hounds who are simply the best. They can dish out terrible amounts of pain and take a fair bit too! 2 units, one on each flank can be scary for an opponent. They are mean on the flank and can take over where the Bloodletters fail.

Along with these I would go for a unit of 6 Seekers with the Siren banner. Being able to charge units from 20" away and deny them a flee move or stand and shoot, these are a real asset to the army as they can deal with fast cav, skirmishers, missile troops and other annoyances with ease.

Rare
Only 2 things stand out here; Bloodcrushers and Fiends. I say Fiends because adding a single one to a combat involving your Keeper makes it much easier for him to run the enemy down. He can also hurt Fast Cav too. He is there to charge with the Seekers or Keeper.

After this I think a unit of Bloodcrushers are deadly witht he +D6" banner. They are vulnerable but hit like a ton of bricks.

----------

So there you are, I have tried to identify what I think are the strongest elements of the new list and a good way of putting them together with synergy in mind. It is not final as I am still playtesting (and a list without a GD too!) but hope it can help.

Icarus
11-04-2008, 02:59
Bloodletters aren't worth it,

Thought your post was good and informative but im wondering about this. What makes you say Bloodletters aren't good? Admittedly they are fragile but they pack a hell of a punch, and have Killing Blow and MR, so they look pretty good to me. I'm planning on making an all-khorne army and I want to include a fair amount of these guys, mostly cos of the cool models.

LKHERO
11-04-2008, 05:08
Did you read past those 4 words?

I said they're not worth it unless you take big blocks of them with Skull Totem. :S

lokigod
11-04-2008, 06:18
Want to know the key to success with the new Daemons? Mix marks freely. Simple as that really.

EDIT: Let me expand.

I've been thinking a lot about the strongest setups for each of the slots.

Characters
Obviously you take what you want but I am looking for the greatest level of synergy here. For me there are 2 options. One is the cheap route and that is a lone Bloodthirser or Heralds. As the cheapest of the GD's he can be a bargain, allowing you more points on troops.

However, I think that if you're not opposed to really mixing it up, a Slaaneshi character section is strongest. Lvl 4 Keeper has great spells but also awesome combat ability. 6 S6 ASF attacks with Armour Piercing can hurt! Add to this the mega cheap Masque and your opponent really needs to worry about Terror checks on his prize units. Then, you need a BSB. You could also do with supporting your Kipper so a Tzeentch BSB will do nicely with Master of Magic to allow him to choose a good support Lore. The -2LD banner will add to your LD manipulation.

Troops
First thing I would like is an anvil. There are only 2 choices here; Plaguebearers and Horrors. Now I have a Tzeentch Herald so I think that Horrors will give the most support to the army as a whole. 40 is ideal because they can take some punishment with their 4+ ward and give the list another lvl 4 caster so we now have 10 levels of magic in the list.

Second thing I would like are some flankers and since I think Daemonettes are rubbish with S3, 2 small units of Bloodletters can flank the Horrors and devour anything they tie up.

Also, since you plan to be scaring things away with LD manipulation. A unit or 2 of Furies to set up crossfires can be priceless!

Special
Again only 2 stand out for me. The first are Flesh Hounds who are simply the best. They can dish out terrible amounts of pain and take a fair bit too! 2 units, one on each flank can be scary for an opponent. They are mean on the flank and can take over where the Bloodletters fail.

Along with these I would go for a unit of 6 Seekers with the Siren banner. Being able to charge units from 20" away and deny them a flee move or stand and shoot, these are a real asset to the army as they can deal with fast cav, skirmishers, missile troops and other annoyances with ease.

Rare
Only 2 things stand out here; Bloodcrushers and Fiends. I say Fiends because adding a single one to a combat involving your Keeper makes it much easier for him to run the enemy down. He can also hurt Fast Cav too. He is there to charge with the Seekers or Keeper.

After this I think a unit of Bloodcrushers are deadly witht he +D6" banner. They are vulnerable but hit like a ton of bricks.

----------

So there you are, I have tried to identify what I think are the strongest elements of the new list and a good way of putting them together with synergy in mind. It is not final as I am still playtesting (and a list without a GD too!) but hope it can help.


hmm some of this I tend to like some I dont......

first off let me talk about all the gd...
1. GUO - awsome surviveability, best lore in the book, and if ya want a caster thats ok in combat and that can survive here is your guy! point denial is your friend!
2. bloodthirster - combat monster really nasty for his price!
3. keeper - is somewhere between thirster and LOC jack of all trades master of none.
4. LOC- like magic look no further he is just as good as in SOC, but is really blah on combat.

Heralds-
1. nurgle- Best locus and best all around gifts.... he can kill and stick around with t5
2. Khorne- great herald for combat run him with some juggers for pure slaughter
3. slaanesh- meh asf for a horrible unit and yes I know there fast but goblins are about all that will fear there daemoneete friends!
4. Tzeentch- once again great for magic has a decent shooting attack with gift and is very mobile with disc
special charachter heralds are all good and will all dish out a world of pain if used correctly

core-
1. plaguebearers- (used these last week) they are best anvil in the game right now with a herald.... and they can kill alot with poison str 4..... put a herald in them for regeneration and add slime trail with vapors! Now you have a unit that is stuborn pratically, enemy gets no bonus for rear and flanks, and 3 guys on the other side in the front rank always strike last! TAKE THAT SWORD MASTERS :)

2. bloodletters-(used last week) bleh is all I can say.... t3 means if you get charged ya might get 1 or 2 attacks back from them.... so I would say take PB instead they own them in comabt and as a anvil.

3. daemonettes- msu all the way maybe to kill gobo's and maybe fast cav if your lucky.....

4. horrors- There great at what they do but ya better support them with some combat or cheese will be all you hear.

5. furries- units of 5 for 60 points... can ya say a god send! they are excellent march blockers,war machine hunters, rear hitters for the +2 cr, and more for 60 points :)

special
1. flesh hounds - omg used these guys last week and there worth there weight in gold...fast,durable, and are nasty in combat!

2. nurglings- decent but are not as good as they used to be even with scout and poison(1 unit= great... anymore and It was a waste for me)

3. seekers- havent used them but look decent on paper but really pale in comparsion of flesh hounds....

4. screamers- hmm they are still great!

rare-
1. beasts of nurgle- lost 1 in 3 games and they shred everything they come in contact with..... that many attacks with poison was netting me a average of 7 to 8 wounds a round. t5 regeneration with a ward save and 4 wounds is awsome even for 100 points a base!
2. blood crushers - hmm they look a little weaker on paper but are still good although at 70 points I still would rather dish out 30 more for the beasts!
3. fiends - hmm look good and really cheap but pale in comparsion to all the other rares!
4. flamers - wow oh wow these guys are nasty! I was running 5 of them and there like salamanders that dont misfire now! If you dont move at long range or about 18 in ches away max they hit on 4+ and do d6 per flamer shots. they skirmish so you can dance and shoot and do alot of damage to rank and file. Mine held down a whole flank by them selves!

So far it seems to me nurgle and tzeentch are the best when mixed and maybe a dash of khorne.....Slaanesh could be good but it requires tricks that people will catch on too very fast and shut down afterwards....

These are my thoughts after 3 massacre's last week facing vc, nurgle beast herd heavy, and orcs and gobbo's

Your Mum Rang
11-04-2008, 10:15
My post was tending towards getting the best synergy in a list and as always might not be 100% spot on.

I wasn't saying other options weren't worthwhile though. I think the GUO is awesome but the Keeper pips him to the post because of his greater M and WS.

My main tip (and I've said this everywhere) is don't take Daemonettes :P

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 10:44
lol when the new chaos mortals arrive i doubt any of you will be able to field deamons ( well of any considerable force )

also beasts , e.g. trolls, beastmen, shaggoths etc will be harder to use, however with some kind of ' totem ' and some kind of ' chalice ' in the magic items list allies can be fielded , however we / i dont know whether there will be a points value on the amount of allies you can use

hellcannons are coming back allthough they take up 2 rares :cries:

and so are cultists, there has been some controvosy on these zealots ( to me there zealots ) and it seems either a set of minatures for these are coming out or u have to convert empire flagellants :eek:

knights are moving to specials ( i dont see what the big fuss about this is, chaos cavalry are much better than there empire counterparts )

and also it seems all new sorcerers of any kind shall all be tzeetch ( which seems reasonable because tzeetch is the only real magic using god )

new hounds + new chariot coming out, however not known whether mauranders are getting an update :confused:

Icarus
11-04-2008, 12:02
Did you read past those 4 words?

I said they're not worth it unless you take big blocks of them with Skull Totem. :S

Er, yes i did funnily enough, i was just wondering what your reasoning was.

To me it seems unnneccessary expense to take a large block of these guys when they are going to win by kills, not standard combat res. Yes they are a little weak at T3, but to me that just means use a little finesse. They are relatively fast, have magic resistance and are accompanied by faster nastier things that will distract enemy shooting. All you should have to worry about is getting charged first. Personally I was thinking of taking more, but smaller units of Bloodletters to use as flankers and support for my beefier stuff, maybe units of 12.

But yeah, the Skull Totem is a must! :evilgrin:

crazywhiteboydance
11-04-2008, 12:29
I'm personally having trouble with what to kit out my LoC with. I wont give him 2 heads until i can model it, so any ideas?

TIZNE
11-04-2008, 19:52
Thoughts about Horror's spells:

(6-15 horrors) Flickering Fire of Tzeentch 4+
Magic Missile 18" D6+1 hits at Str D6+1
Makes good use of that last remaining dice in your pool, specially with the baner of sorcery (+1 to cast). Very random, and while its stronger than Red Fire of Alteration, it's range is not that good.

(16-25 horros) Gift of Chaos 9+
Each enemy unit (even in CC) within 12" suffers d6 Str d6 hits
The only that's not a magic missile! This spell is important, becuase this makes your horrors always useful. They don't need LOS and can hit various units, but not your own. You can field your horrors in the center, in order of take advantage of this spell during the midgame.You can also reform our unit to get a wider range hehe. I can see tarpits of plaguebearers supported by this spell.

(26-35 horrors) Bolt of Change 12+
Magic missle range 18" 2d6 Str D6+4
Our most devastating spell, but you are probably geting this off only once or maybe twice before you get charged. Mv 4 is not getting us a good LOS.

(36+ horrors) Tzeentch Firestorm 13+
Magic Missle with range 24", causes 2d6 Str 5 hits. Every 3 unsaved wounds creates a new Horror. These form a new unit worth 50vps. Withing 3" of old unit.
Every 3? Come on, thats just lame. I really hope that part is not true. If you kill full twelve models you get 4 horrors. wooooot and they give 50 VPs! You are probably not wanting to cast a lot of times this spell.
What this new unit of horros can do, and do it well, is march block.
And this spell has the best range in the lore, you could get in range after the first march, yours or your opponents.

---------------------------
Conclusion:
Tzeentch firestorm is good to get a 'unit' behind your opponents line to march block. After that and if in range, you are better casting Bolt of change. Once your opponent gets to close combat Gift of chaos hitting mulple units would be awesome.

---------------------------

Break down of the cost and benefit ratio.

12pts x 10 = 120pts . . . . . . . . . . +1PD +1DD . . . . . 60pts each Die
((plus 6 points per die, for each horror added between 11 and 15)

12pts x 16 = 192pts . . . . . . . . . . +2PD +1DD . . . . . 64pts each Die
((plus 4 points per die, for each horror added between 17 and 25)

12pts x 26 = 312ts . . . . . . . . . . +3PD +2DD . . . . . 62.4 pts each Die
((plus 2.4 points per die, for each horror added between 27 and 35)

12pts x 36 = 432pts . . . . . . . . . . +4PD +2DD . . . . . 72pts each Die
((plus 2 points per die, for each horror added)


Also think about the spells you get from the different amounts of horrors.

---------------------------

You could try to beef up more the unit stregth but very little will be gained.The unit of horror is probably going to get shot before it cast its first spell, because warmachines have longer range.

So, when deciding how much horrors you want, you must ask:

Which spell I want? (this one is up to you)

How many horrors I have to field to maintain that Level of wizardry to cast that spell at least once? (As much as you think your opponent would kill before you get in shooting range.)

Is maintaining that level worth that many points?
(Probably your opponent is getting enough kills if he hits your unit with a warmachine shot anyway. Also probably your opponent will aim at your chariots or your greater daemon, so it may be unnecesary.)


Comments?

Your Mum Rang
11-04-2008, 20:12
TBH only a fool uses Firestorm. It's gifting your opponents 50VP every time.

Lijacote
11-04-2008, 20:20
TBH only a fool uses Firestorm. It's gifting your opponents 50VP every time.

Well it IS good for march blocking I suppose... I'd pay 50 points for a march blocker on the first turn, especially when it does 2d6 strength 5 hits on arrival. The range is good enough for this purpose.

Gralph!?!
11-04-2008, 22:50
hmmmm being a litle bit of a slaanesh fan i would say that some of the things that can be done are utterly filthy. a unit of seekers led by a herald with many armed monstrousity and a siren banner will easily over come any missile unit it charges since it will do alot of damage with theheralds strength 4. they may also be very handy when charging the flanks of swordsmen or even against tough units like chaos warriors or similiar. in the flank they already have less save so the herald and the normal attacks can still cause alot of damage so long as you can wound.

the fiends are freaking cool for what they do, against they have the same uses like the herald on steed in that they flank charge well and with there speed you should be able to get them into a flank easily.

tzeentch are necessacery for a little extra magical protection, a unit of horrors are 120pts basic and they count as a level 1 wizardbasic, for an already expensive army already i will always take a single unit of 10 horrors since i will then be able to protect my daemonic **** from a few flames here and there.

heralds of tzeentch on the discs get the slash attacks so massing them with the missile weapon and some screamers will cause a whole lot of paint for units since he is also a level 2 caster.

nurgle beastss are really scary but against armor you may crumple a little badly if you roll badly for your attacks. cool model though.

khorne units i think are gonna workas small flanking units over being units of dedicated kill all regiments. sure they are nasty but with a single attack and toughness 3 they will get hit back and at least 1 will die statistically from a unit of empire swordsmen.

i am liking the idea of a daemon prince more than a greater daeon personally since they are cheaper, can hide better than a greater daemon and can support very well. i am planning on a slaanesh with wings and ethersword so i can take on knights which is a major problem for me to fight.

unless you have some khorne units having something that canignore armour ought to be in every army.

TIZNE
12-04-2008, 06:26
TBH only a fool uses Firestorm. It's gifting your opponents 50VP every time.

That's pretty much true, except in the case the enemy troops are still out of range of your more powerful spells. If you are spending 300+points on a unit that happens to have the only function of being a wizard, then you want to be casting spells from the beginning.


On bloodletters, I agree. They will be great as a small hammer unit, flank charging what charges your anvil.

Dux Ducis
12-04-2008, 12:37
Is it worth Slaaneshi or Tzeentchian heralds to take a chariot? How would they be used - infantry line support?

One other thing that I've been mulling over is the fact taht MSU could work really well with Daemons of Chaos. I mean, really well. More so than most other races. I suppose you gotta watch out for crumbling :p


I'm personally having trouble with what to kit out my LoC with. I wont give him 2 heads until i can model it, so any ideas?

Use Galrauch, the First Chaos Dragon (http://oz.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.oz?do=Individual&code=99110201141&orignav=13). Maybe trim the body down a bit and make it a little skinnier. Viola, two-headed LoC (Nevermind the fact Galrauch is actually possessed by a Loc).

SilverWarlock
12-04-2008, 18:27
I think chariots are a silly idea except for khorne. The other heralds are too fragile and will get picked off. It also slows both tzeentch and slaanesh heralds down given they can fly or have a M10 steed.

Yes MSU is I believe the way to go, which is why I think demonettes aren't all that bad, with M6 and 2 attacks each they can do well in MSU I think (units of 10, 6 wide). The immunity to panic makes them quite valid and still a pain with fewer of them.

Other great MSU units we have are the fleshounds (those things are so damn good), seekers, furies.

All very fast and work in small units.

I think every unit except plaguebearers and horrors want to be in small units to max out on attacks, so yes, MSU all the way.

rolly_321
13-04-2008, 02:23
I don't see what everyone has against the poor old Bloodletters, sure they die quick and have only one attack but compare them with other infantry that you can get for 12 points. For example, Wood elf Eternal guard, with them you get 2 strength 3 attacks + a spear from behind (basicaly 3 attacks) and a 5+ armour save with T3 also at WS5, Bloodletters get + 2 strenth and -2 attacks, their save is batter as it won't get nagated by strength and they have the same WS and T. For their price I'd say they're exactly where they should be.

I just reckon when you use them you need to make sure you put them into the right ememy, against high armoured opponents which will usual only have 1 attack also its a fair match. Like say dwarf Longbeards (also 12 points i think actualy...), on the kill ratio Bloodletters should come out infornt, but they probally take a few wounds on the way to shooting. Add a flank with demmonettes and your set.

Just because not every unit can give you stats of 10 across the board for the price of a zombie doesn't make them uselss, infact I'd say its a better part of the game that powergmers and whiners forget, tis call Balance. As cool as Blood and Chaos Knights are, its dull when thats all that gets fielded, somthing I hope GW wont forget.

Malagant
13-04-2008, 03:05
About Bloodletters, are they 25mm or 20mm bases?

SilverWarlock
13-04-2008, 03:36
all 25 mm

there isn't a demon on a 20mm I dont think

rolly_321
13-04-2008, 06:10
Demmonettes might be, they seem a bit slim for going on 25mm bases without looking awkward.

Dux Ducis
13-04-2008, 07:32
No, all are on 25mm, even daemonettes.

Your Mum Rang
13-04-2008, 19:38
Add a flank with demmonettes and your set.

Those Daemonettes will kill nothing with t4 :P

SilverWarlock
13-04-2008, 20:00
Those Daemonettes will kill nothing with t4 :P

compared to bloodletters they have double the attacks and half the chance to wound (a 5+ rather than a 3+) and a difference of only one on armor modifier.

So stats are, they will kill almost as much as an equivalent number of bloodletters (and more on t3, less on T5 and up). And quite honestly, I prefer the movement bonus.

oCoYoRoAoKo
14-04-2008, 08:54
Those Daemonettes will kill nothing with t4 :P

i think you have somewhat of a bias against slaanesh troops :P from a 5 wide frontage you are likeley to get 6-7 hits (hitting on 3s), with 2-3 wounds (wounding on 5s). compare that to a blood letter and we get 3 hits (again hitting on 3s against most troops) and, oh look, 2 wounds ( wounding T4 on 3s and assuming no champions and stuff). they actually cause more wounds. after saves you are likeley to get the same amount of kills, more so if you have mounted 'nettes because of the 5 extra poisoned attacks.

against T3 troops, the odds rack up largeley in favor of the 'nettes causing 3-4 wounds vs 2-3 from the 'letters. the only real place it goes downhill is against T5+ but how many T5 troops per army are there really? - and i dont mean giants and large monsters, they are reserved for the KoS.

Cy.

Your Mum Rang
14-04-2008, 12:07
It's based on experience but even still, I prefer the models so a unit will still end up in my army :D

Icarus
16-04-2008, 13:23
What are people's opinions on Skulltaker? Is he worth the extra points and how would you use him? Personally I'm quite taken with the idea of using him in 2000+ games, stick him on a Juggernaut and use him to cut down enemy Lord choices. Could wipe the smile off my friend who loves to field a tough-as-nails vampire on a Zombie Dragon!

theblackmage
16-04-2008, 13:30
Nurgle can have lots of very tough units, but watch out for putting all your eggs in one basket! Nurgle 'anvils' make this even worse by relying on the bonuses given by a herald (regen, gifts, and bsb) - if he gets taken out by a killing blow or multiple wound weapon, or flaming attacks, the unit loses loads of its value as an anvil, and all of it as a hammer. Watch out for character killers!

jahorin
16-04-2008, 14:03
That's pretty much true, except in the case the enemy troops are still out of range of your more powerful spells. If you are spending 300+points on a unit that happens to have the only function of being a wizard, then you want to be casting spells from the beginning.


Giving up 50 VP is nothing compare to the face your opponent will make when all his fanatics are force to be released out of their parent unit :)

March blocking is a good use. But also it might divert a cannon shot to your greater deamon, or even tied up an elven bolt thrower for a turn. Anyhow, there are some utility to the spell. IF, and I put a big IF on that, so if you cast the spell multiple times on the same target are all the horror created in the same unit, or you create a new unit every time you cast the spell?

neXus6
16-04-2008, 16:42
Basicly Your Mum Rang has the unluckiest Daemonettes alive, don't worry about him. ;) :D

I recon running them in units of 18 with command would work, at worst they will hold an enemy unit for 3 turns allowing plenty of chance for a flank charge. In a mixed army I will agree they seem a bit without a role. But in Slannesh only, and Slannesh/Tzeentch armies they should do okay as line troops while the big boys/girls/its of Keeper and Fiends tear things appart. :D

TIZNE
16-04-2008, 17:35
Giving up 50 VP is nothing compare to the face your opponent will make when all his fanatics are force to be released out of their parent unit

March blocking is a good use. But also it might divert a cannon shot to your greater deamon, or even tied up an elven bolt thrower for a turn. Anyhow, there are some utility to the spell. IF, and I put a big IF on that, so if you cast the spell multiple times on the same target are all the horror created in the same unit, or you create a new unit every time you cast the spell?

I'm with you, a unit behind the opponent's lines is able to cause a big mess, even if it's a small unit. Just put that unit out of sight, so your opponent has to spend a whole turn dealing with it, and probably sacrificing his army formation or line. Or at least diverting some missile fire from your really important targets as you said. Everything is nice for us until here: We spend a magic fase killing a few models, messing a little his plan, and holding up a unit for 50 VPs.
But how about for 200 VPs? Not that juicy for us. So the more you cast this spell, the least advantage we get. If your opponent is already sending a detachment to hunt the newly creatd unit, then what he's not sacrificing anything for those extra points. And consider that its a 13+ spell!! We are already spending a lot of PD, and getting nearer to a miscast.

And yes, Firestorm says "create a new unit", so I think it won't be possible to beef up a previosly created one.
--------

Talking about detachments...
Mounted 'nettes are going to be a nice addition to any army, just like marauder horsemen once were.

Your Mum Rang
16-04-2008, 17:52
Basicly Your Mum Rang has the unluckiest Daemonettes alive, don't worry about him. ;) :D


I am exceedingly bitter about my girls.

isidril93
16-04-2008, 18:09
daemonettes are strong unit

they will make excellent flankers with their high M

but i think they must be fielded in small units between 10 and 15 like letters

they will be extremly helpful to bearers who should have big units

without kills enemies will have to face a 6+ resolution

TIZNE
16-04-2008, 19:08
What are people's opinions on Skulltaker? Is he worth the extra points and how would you use him? Personally I'm quite taken with the idea of using him in 2000+ games, stick him on a Juggernaut and use him to cut down enemy Lord choices. Could wipe the smile off my friend who loves to field a tough-as-nails vampire on a Zombie Dragon!

Slaying the opponent's army general is his role. Even under 2000 points, against highly costed heroes he will be amazing. If he strikes first, he is taking down anyone, so I'll also be putting him on a Juggernaut.

What's not to love?

Rikkjourd
17-04-2008, 07:31
I will not be using special characters ever. No matter how many enemy army generals he can kill per turn!

I will use Plaguebearers. They seem simple to use since they can take alot of punishment and still stick around for more. I will have two largeish regiments with a herald each. Then I will use juggers, hounds and a thirster to flank and rack up kills. And maybe some fiends and those little flying buggers whatever their name was, to take out war machines, missile troops and wizards.

Btw, regarding that gift that gives 2d6+2attacks. That is amazing! It is only one in six that you end up with less attacks than 7, and one in nine that you end up with exactly 7. Those odds are totally worth it, I will always use this on my thirster.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
17-04-2008, 20:46
I'm with you - I intend to try out the Dark Insanity gift extensively.


Couple it with Immortal Fury (Always re-roll missed hits) and Armor of Khorne for the 3+ Armor Save, and you are set.


You can roll up 8-10 attacks, let's say....you'll hit on 3+ (WS-10) and wound on 2+ (STR-6, -3 Armor Saves) against most things in the game. Then any misses you rolled, you get to RE-Roll thanks to Immortal Fury !


When it comes time for them to try and damage you...if they are regular troops of WS-4 or less, they can only hit you on 5+ ...then most troops would need 5+ or 6+ to Wound you...then you'd get a 3+ Armor Save and an additional 5+ Ward Save to prevent the damage.


Pretty darn versatile and resilient, I'd say !


With this set-up, a Bloodthirster can finally challenge a fully-ranked unit - from the front - with it's fancy +5 Static Combat Res - and have a decent chance to prevail...assuming you don't roll like crap for your number of attacks. If you get 8+ attacks, you can...on average.....get 6-Wounds through and defeat his SCR, breaking the enemy unit and likely running them down with your 3d6 pursuit distance.

:evilgrin:

Da Black Gobbo
18-04-2008, 13:59
Hmm...i'll play with heavy slaanesh, 2-3 units of 'nettes at 15 models each full command, a Keeper of Secrets, 2 heralds of Slaanesh and one of Tzeench with lore of beasts in a unit of horrors (a little one 10-12 guys) then 2 units of mounted daemonettes (5 each) a little unit of furies and 2 units of 2 fiends (speeeeeeeed....). In my opinion each god is similar to some armies see Slaanesh-Elves, Khorne-Chaos warriors/Ogres, Tzeench/¿?¿?¿?, Nurgle/Dwarfs.

Icarus
22-04-2008, 16:52
Slaying the opponent's army general is his role. Even under 2000 points, against highly costed heroes he will be amazing. If he strikes first, he is taking down anyone, so I'll also be putting him on a Juggernaut.

What's not to love?

My thoughts exactly, although personally I dont think i'll use him under 2000 points. Against the heroes of most opponents, a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut (Fulgrim's "Daemonic Steroids" version :evilgrin:) should be more than enough for both character killing and general mayhem. Where Skulltaker will shine is for taking down tough Lords and big gribblies.

AhSmiteMe
22-04-2008, 18:36
I'm with you - I intend to try out the Dark Insanity gift extensively.


Dark insanity is NOT worth it. It is only available
to the khorne greater daemon. 2d6 +2 attacks, is on average 9 attacks, only 2 better than he starts at.

It is expensive, and it is not much better than what he comes with.

I would rather go with:

Axe of khorne
firestorm blade
Immortal fury
khorne armour

For 7 str7 attacks with kb and rerolls.
and the 3+ armour save

Rikkjourd
22-04-2008, 19:36
It's totally worth it. +2 attacks on average for 50pts? Nice. also, compared to his original 7 attacks it is very very rare that he rolls less than that (1/6).

Killing blow is not worth it for this guy. I intend to use him to kill rank and file dudes anyway, they only have one wound and reduced armour thanks to strength. Most characters will be afraid of a challenge without killing blow.

3+ armour save is good but not necessary. Low strength shooting will not wound him easily. high strength/armour piercing will remove most of the armour anyway. since he is fast and manouverable he should do the charging which means that there won't be much left to strike back at him when he hits CC, therefore no need for armour. Poisoned shooting will be a bitch but then again skinks are a bitch to anything...

I will use dark insanity and the reroll to hit.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
22-04-2008, 19:49
One other thing that I've been mulling over is the fact taht MSU could work really well with Daemons of Chaos. I mean, really well. More so than most other races. I suppose you gotta watch out for crumbling :p

How does MSU work if you cannot flee from charges? This is an honest question. I have played many MSU lists with my Dark Elves, but it relies on fleeing from charges. If you can't flee, how does it work? Just by tarpitting and counter charging?

Dux Ducis
23-04-2008, 10:16
How does MSU work if you cannot flee from charges? This is an honest question. I have played many MSU lists with my Dark Elves, but it relies on fleeing from charges. If you can't flee, how does it work? Just by tarpitting and counter charging?

I've wondered about the effectivness of mounted daemonettes since they can't flee as a charge reaction. Kinda irritating to be honest - why they are priced at 24pts with only T3 is beyond me (and yes, I know each model has 3 attacks. I don't think it sill justifies 24pts).

oCoYoRoAoKo
23-04-2008, 13:50
lets break down the mounted 'nettes shall we?

For 24 points (cheaper then their old daemonic legion price) you get 2 WS5 armor piercing attacks, 1 WS 3 poisoned armor piercing attack, a 6+ armor save (they are mounted remember) 5+ ward save, light cavalry status, and movement 10 to boot. quite a bargain if you ask me. compare that to some other light cavalry (which almost all also have T3 and the same armor - the ward) and you get a model which is faster, has more attacks, and better stats in general.

Cy.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-04-2008, 17:13
I've wondered about the effectivness of mounted daemonettes since they can't flee as a charge reaction. Kinda irritating to be honest - why they are priced at 24pts with only T3 is beyond me (and yes, I know each model has 3 attacks. I don't think it sill justifies 24pts).

M10 is pretty damn awesome too. I actually loved these guys in my Cult of Slannesh list. I thought their price was fair (at least relative to Dark Riders). They were still very mobile. They were ItP. They caused Fear - huge for War Machine hunters. They had an equivalent save to most Fast Cavalry. But I also had Dark Riders to use in the "baiting charges" role, so I was still able to use "traditional" MSU tactics in the list.

Do they exist in the new Daemon book? Or are they now just show pieces (albeit gorgeous ones)?

Your Mum Rang
23-04-2008, 17:41
They do. They also have access to a abnner which stops the enemy from fleeing or using Stand and Shoot.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-04-2008, 17:54
Interesting, because I couldn't find the models anywhere on the online store. Good to know. I love them...

Your Mum Rang
23-04-2008, 19:15
Apparently, GW might be dropping anything with a nipple.

I'd just convert the new plastic ones anyway.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
23-04-2008, 19:31
I'm sticking with the old ones. I hate the new Daemonettes. :p

isidril93
23-04-2008, 20:01
i quite like the mounted nettes but what do you people think are better, nettes or fiends
1 fiend=bit more than 2 nette
4a=6a
ws4=ws5,3
t4=t3
3w=2w

but you can field fiends in units of 1+ while nettes in 5+

Dux Ducis
24-04-2008, 12:30
GW has indeed stopped manufacturing the mounted daemonettes.

Hopefully the second wave of daemon models will be on the horizon very soon.

Icarus
24-04-2008, 13:11
Hopefully the second wave of daemon models will be on the horizon very soon.

We can but hope. I've got to say its very frustrating that the releases for daemon models seem to be coming in two waves. Hopefully we won't have to wait too long.

Bertolac
24-04-2008, 19:47
I've wondered about the effectivness of mounted daemonettes since they can't flee as a charge reaction. Kinda irritating to be honest - why they are priced at 24pts with only T3 is beyond me (and yes, I know each model has 3 attacks. I don't think it sill justifies 24pts).

Try comparing them against Wild Riders (which are 26 pts, and also ItP, and T3). They only lose out on strength, especially on the charge, but it's a rare occasion that you send Wildr Riders into heavy armour/high toughness troops. Combine the stats with a better Ward and causing fear all the time and they'll be just as useful a Wild Riders, for less points.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
24-04-2008, 20:00
I need to get on Ebay and buy me up some more Mounted Deamonettes before they're all gone! :p

Da Black Gobbo
24-04-2008, 21:14
Today i had a look to the 40k book and i got amazed, it's an incredible army! and personaly I can see a Nurgle army with Epidemus rocking so hard, Slaanesh daemons are great, Le masque's special skill is incredible, you can move away (or to you) a unit from 3' to 18' inches...hot, Daemonettes, 3 attacks WS4 I6 ludicrous! I see a lot of daemon pain...

TIZNE
25-04-2008, 05:44
I'll take mounted 'nettes over fiends of slaanesh because of the banner "your opponent only stands a charge reaction."
Daemonettes are made to take down those core troops with light armour and low To, and it's a fact that they also happen to be missile troops on most of the armies. A 20inches charge range with that banner is going to be amazing.

shartmatau
25-04-2008, 14:32
Well I got my spearhead and while it is great there are a few complaints on my part.
First of all the special characters are metal and in plastic containers as well as the fleshhounds. But the pieces were all over the place, not neatly contained. So it took a little while to sort them all out. Second the size of some of the characters is a bit exagerated for my taste, epidimius is kind of ridiculous looking. But whatever minor complaints on a good box set.

I think I'm very much going to enjoy this army. I just noticed that all the greater daemons are the same price. LoC starts as level 2 and can buy lvl3 or lvl4, keeper and GUO are lvl 1 and can buy higher lvls.
Daemon prince doesn't really seem worth it unless maybe you are conserving points, you can save 150-200pts by taking a DP. But if you are doing that taking named characters or more heralds is proably better.
Oh and skultaker model is ******* sweet. I hadn't seen his back before which is completely covered in skulls and he's a biggin. Cheers.

Soul of Iron
28-04-2008, 14:57
Has anyone had the opportunity to playtest a Khorne demon list? I've been using a Tzeentch list for the last 4 weeks but a khorne list is really peaking my interest.

TIZNE
28-04-2008, 16:43
Do you mean an All-tzeentch list?:D

I am very interested in hearing about your experience. how does the special characters perform? Max number of characters? Minimun size of horror units? With banner of sorcery? What do you do when the opponent's cavalry reach your lines?

I have not tried this, but I have the idea of using Nurgle units as a tarpit, to keep your horror units out of combat (then with the most models), and position them for a greedy Gift of Chaos.
But if I do that, I fear that the Gods of fluff and Tzeentch himself will turn me into a Spawn.

Your Mum Rang
28-04-2008, 16:48
Neh, fluff is all about Daemons fighting together. Try every single Great War against Chaos.

Soul of Iron
28-04-2008, 20:11
Do you mean an All-tzeentch list?:D

I am very interested in hearing about your experience. how does the special characters perform? Max number of characters? Minimun size of horror units? With banner of sorcery? What do you do when the opponent's cavalry reach your lines?


I played in an escalation tournament for the last 4 weeks. It started at 1500 pts and ran to 3000 pts. Each week you were allotted 500 extra points but whatever units you paid for and fielded had to be in the subsequent armies.

I wanted to focus on an overwhelming magic and shooting phase so that’s how I built my lists. I felt no need to bring a LoC as heralds are very cheap and make for nasty mages.

All my horror units started at 15 models. I chose 15 so that my opponents would have to kill 10 to silence the unit. At 3k points I had 3 units of 20 and 1 of 10 (I meant to field 4 units of 20 but I ran out ).

My screamers I fielded in packs of 5. I felt that number was enough to cause serious pain on what they flew over, but small enough to maintain maneuverability. I started with 2 packs of 5 and ended with 4 packs of 5. ~Awesome moment~ 2 packs of screamers flew over a giant and a unit of 3 dragon ogres. Both units were untouched. The giant died and the other 10 hits killed the last DO (Bolt of Change mangled those poor bastards…).

Flamers are worth their weight in gold. Repeat that ad nauseam. I ran packs of 6 with a pyrocaster, kept them in the woods, and used them to nuke massed infantry marching towards my horrors or warmachines. I stared with 1 pack of 6 with a pyro and ended with 3 packs of 6 with pyros. ~Awesome moment~ A unit of 18 skeletons lead the Vamp general was marching towards my lines. My flamers were at long range but had not moved. I rolled three 6’s and two 5’s for my normal flamers and a 6 for my pyro. After the smoke cleared there was 1 skeleton and the vamp left, and my characters had not fired yet…

I love Tzeentch Heralds. I gave all my boys shooting, made 1 the BSB with the Standard of Sundering, and gave my general herald sorcery. When placed into units, these characters make horror units hard as nails. A 4+ ward save on an infantry unit is hilarious. The GSoS is a must have for tournament play as it brings successful spells in a safe range for dispel dice. I started with the sorcerer and my BSB at 1500 pts, and ended with 4 heralds at 3k.

The Blue scribes are so worth their points. My opponents really didn’t get to many spells off due to my dispel dice, but when they did the extra power dice were really nice.

I was very fortunate not to have any encounters with cavalry so I have nothing to report there. I went 4-0 and won a 25th anniversary rule book (the $175 one!).

Game 1 Vs Dwarfs – Massacre
Game 2 Vs Vamp Counts – Massacre
Game 3 Vs Beastmen – Solid Victory
Game 4 Vs Dwarfs – Solid Victory

Dux Ducis
29-04-2008, 02:26
How do the new daemons keep their t3 and t4 core infantry from being shot-up by massed handgun, crossbow and arrow fire?

How would the screamers be used effectively? I heard that their profile was trimmed down considerably.

What's the unit strength of a flamer?

Kerill
29-04-2008, 07:44
I’ve also been running a pure Tzeentch list (with one unit of furies). Had two battles on sunday:

http://z2.invisionfree.com/herdstone/index.php?showtopic=14541

As you can see my list was fairly soft (I delieberately didn't min/max horrors to flamers)

Screamers are very very powerful, although if you are using their rules correctly zig-zagging does serioucly reduce their range (because every screamer has to overfly for its attack to count). Flamers are also a very useful support troop- they do less damage than screamers but are tougher and allow more options.

The Tzeentch spells and master of sorcery is just awesome. At 1500 points with two heralds my opponents had to make a difficult choice of whether or not to dispel my boons of Tzeentch (i rolled one die at them). Bolt of change is awesome but is a little bit out of the casting range of a level 2 caster (3 dice for 12+ isn't quite enough). On the other hand it is fairly easy for a level 3 unit of horrors with icon of sorcery.

Heralds on chariots are also incredibly flexible and powerful units and create tremendous pressure on your opponent. I was fairly unlucky with bolt of change (did little damage) but in each battle I must have killed 20-40 troops with gift of chaos. Glean magic was also very very useful since for a 7+ spell you can take your pick of your opponents spells. That together with the scribes means that the more magic your opponent takes, the better your situation is.

Horrors are best either in big blocks or small blocks I think, mid sized blocks aren't very useful. In the second game 3 bloodknights with FC, warbanner and a vampire bsb with dread knight smacked my unit of 28 and killed 14 with attacks and combat res. Next turn I was able to combo charge the flank. After their demise my opponent conceded since he had no way whatsoever of avoiding the turn after turn damage from magic, screamers and furies whilst being march blocked the whole time.

One major learning point- Tzeentch Heralds on foot are very easy to kill, 4+ ward or not. Unless you are accessing beasts, fire of light lore its best to remove them from units before combat hits (as I found out in the first game where my general got thwacked to death by an orc champion in a challenge).
One minor learning point- Heralds with flames of Tzeentch don't do much damage with shooting, although I would like to keep them for the flexibility it was the first thing I dropped from my 2000 point list.

On that issue, Tzeentch works very well at 1500 points, relatively less well at 2000 and fine again at 2250. I found the third compulsory core in the 2000 point list to be a real thorn in the side.

In those games I had 4 flying units which really is awkward for your opponent to deal with. In 2000 I’ll have 6.

Your Mum Rang
29-04-2008, 11:34
How would the screamers be used effectively? I heard that their profile was trimmed down considerably.

I use Furies in 2 ways.

- 2 units of 6 to set up crossfires and march block.
- 1 unit of 10 to tie up nasty things like a Greater Daemon. So far these guys have held for 4 turns against a Keeper of Secrets and once won combat against a Bloodthirster who had Beast Cowers on him.

Chris_Tzeentch
29-04-2008, 12:07
I used my Nurgle Legion for the first time against a Slaanesh Deamon Legion, 2250 points. I won a minor victory, but it was a tough game.

Here are my findings.

I had two staff of Nurgles in my army, and to be honest I only managed to get one off for one turn in the entire game. This is a shame, as I thought the low toughness on the Deamonettes would have earned me a load of wounds. They did inflict a few, but Plague Wind was far superior.

I was impressed with Epidimius. Having poisoned attacks on a 4+ is godlike. It murdered the deamonettes, and the Palanquins are vicious. Especially as practically all my army is Nurgle. There is just so much synnergy with Epidimius tally ability, its unreal. It was fairly easy to start racking up the wounds, and by turn three, I had the 29+ wounds for the full +5 to cast Nurgle spells.

Palanquins are nasty, but really rather fragile with the one wound. I would still take them though, because of the large number of attacks over a small frontage.

I had a unit of Flamers I was dying to try out, but the Masque put the Dance of Dreaming on them hit then with Slicing Shards. With such a heavily reduced leadership, all 4 died really easily.

The Masque is a total bargain for Slaanesh generals I have to admit.

Having Regeneration on Plaguebearers is fantastic. The amount of damage they were ignoring was incredible.

For my Great Unclean One, I gave him Trappings of Nurgle, and the Staff of Nurgle. The Staff was useless as it was easily dispelled, and I had put him in combat at the earliest opportunity to pin down a Keeper of Secrets. Trappings of Nurgle was ok, but I kept on messing up my Regeneration rolls, and couldn't benefit from the armour save anyway. In future, I might run with a Balesword. My Great Unclean One got killed because I miscast, then rolled a double 1. He got sucked back into the Warp, losing me a large number of victory points in the process! What are the odds!!!

Nurgle magic is impressive. Plague Wind is awesome, and made it easy to generate lots of Nuglings all over the place.

I should also talk about banners. My army standard had the D3 Combat Resolution banner, which I thought was a bargain for 50 points.

In my main unit of Plaguebearers, I took the Standard of Seeping Decay. This was a complete waste of time, because by the time I had got to use it, Epidemius had the 4+ poison ability in play, so all my attacks which were hitting were auto wounding due to poison anyway.
If I had used the Icon of Eternal Virulence, I would have won the big central combat at least a turn earlier, as the combat res you rack up due to poison attacks is massive.

Overall, I was very impressed with the way the army performed. Nurgle FTW!!

oCoYoRoAoKo
29-04-2008, 12:10
I use Furies in 2 ways.

- 2 units of 6 to set up crossfires and march block.
- 1 unit of 10 to tie up nasty things like a Greater Daemon. So far these guys have held for 4 turns against a Keeper of Secrets and once won combat against a Bloodthirster who had Beast Cowers on him.

how did they do that? if we consider a basic Keeper, hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s (3 wounds after saves) followed by a Ld test on a 2 (average 7) gives 5 more wounds from crumble - 8 dead. the 10 furies would hold up for 2 rounds of combat at most.

in my view, their only usefull uses are warmachine/lone mage hunting, and the uses in your first point.

Cy.

Rikkjourd
29-04-2008, 12:24
Palanquins are nasty, but really rather fragile with the one wound. I would still take them though, because of the large number of attacks over a small frontage.



If the palanquin only has one wound, would not that make it a one-wound-mount in the same way as a horse, therefore unkillable and instead adding 6+ save to the rider?

Chris_Tzeentch
29-04-2008, 12:24
Nurgle can have lots of very tough units, but watch out for putting all your eggs in one basket! Nurgle 'anvils' make this even worse by relying on the bonuses given by a herald (regen, gifts, and bsb) - if he gets taken out by a killing blow or multiple wound weapon, or flaming attacks, the unit loses loads of its value as an anvil, and all of it as a hammer. Watch out for character killers!

I put two Heralds in one unit of Plaguebearers. My opponent wept. The unit was hit by two large units of Deamonettes (with a Herald), plus a flank charge from a Slaanesh Herald in a chariot. They beat them all off in two combat turns. The Nurgle Anvil is a nasty anvil indeed.

Chris_Tzeentch
29-04-2008, 12:25
If the palanquin only has one wound, would not that make it a one-wound-mount in the same way as a horse, therefore unkillable and instead adding 6+ save to the rider?

Mmmm good point, I wll have to check out my rulebook. If you are correct, then that makes them awesome indeed.

Your Mum Rang
29-04-2008, 13:31
Having your LD by the Furies is how they survive. Kipper will kill 3, if you're lucky you'll not lose any more to the LD test (I have a BSB too).

Synergy

oCoYoRoAoKo
29-04-2008, 14:31
what with this tactica going on, i'd like to pick your brains on the use of Daemon Princes. are they really as usless as i think they are? (tooled up they are more then a cheaper GD with worse stats). i have been thinking for one to go with my KoS for heavy character hunting in larger games (vampire lords in units for example), but wont another greater daemon (probably a blood thirster or lord of change) do the job better?

Cy.

jahorin
29-04-2008, 14:52
what with this tactica going on, i'd like to pick your brains on the use of Daemon Princes. are they really as usless as i think they are? (tooled up they are more then a cheaper GD with worse stats). i have been thinking for one to go with my KoS for heavy character hunting in larger games (vampire lords in units for example), but wont another greater daemon (probably a blood thirster or lord of change) do the job better?

Cy.

I was thinking the same thing last night. Why would I use a deamon prince? Even more... why would I choose to use a god aligned one!

If you tool him up with full gift allowance, god aligned, and level 2 mage. His point cost comes really near to what a greater deamon could do and be better at it!

Sure you could put him slaneesh aligned with many armed monstrosity and etherblade, but still... A keeper of secret bare bone will hit harder than this and be faster, etc.

The only purpose would be to put him tzeentch aligned in a mono-tzeentch army, just to have somebody without flaming attack to deal with the Dragon prince unit of doom™. You build him with etherblade and soul hunger, winged. With careful movement you could easily charge the unit of doom on the side and mostly wipe them on the spot.

I'm curious to see what others have to say on this matter.

Soul of Iron
29-04-2008, 16:44
DP's are not worth it for me and I play Tzeentch.

I had an idea for a lvl 2 DP with Armed Monstrosity and hatred to run around in my backfield or follow my screamers into my opponents DZ, but I felt that would be alot of points for a distraction and it would really suck if he died. I even have the model built but can't bring myself to paint him when I know he may never see any serious play.

Soul of Iron
29-04-2008, 17:05
I just remembered something else. Do DP's even cause terror anymore? I heard a while back that they don't have terror listed in their rules.

javaguru
29-04-2008, 18:06
I just remembered something else. Do DP's even cause terror anymore? I heard a while back that they don't have terror listed in their rules.

They no longer cause terror.

javaguru
29-04-2008, 18:14
I used my Nurgle Legion for the first time against a Slaanesh Deamon Legion, 2250 points. I won a minor victory, but it was a tough game.

Here are my findings.

I had two staff of Nurgles in my army, and to be honest I only managed to get one off for one turn in the entire game. This is a shame, as I thought the low toughness on the Deamonettes would have earned me a load of wounds. They did inflict a few, but Plague Wind was far superior.

I was impressed with Epidimius. Having poisoned attacks on a 4+ is godlike. It murdered the deamonettes, and the Palanquins are vicious. Especially as practically all my army is Nurgle. There is just so much synnergy with Epidimius tally ability, its unreal. It was fairly easy to start racking up the wounds, and by turn three, I had the 29+ wounds for the full +5 to cast Nurgle spells.

Palanquins are nasty, but really rather fragile with the one wound. I would still take them though, because of the large number of attacks over a small frontage.

Overall, I was very impressed with the way the army performed. Nurgle FTW!!

Palanquins are cavalry mounts, pg 42 DoC.

Soul of Iron
29-04-2008, 19:04
They no longer cause terror.

Then what the hell am I paying 300 ***** points for then?

javaguru
29-04-2008, 19:10
Then what the hell am I paying 300 ***** points for then?

Isn't that the million dollar question, at least give him wings to start with but we actually have to purchase them from gifts! I'm considering running all herlads at anything less than 2,250 points.

Soul of Iron
29-04-2008, 19:16
I fielded heralds all the way to 3000 pts and had lots of fun. 4 heralds + the scribes is pure win.

javaguru
29-04-2008, 19:24
I fielded heralds all the way to 3000 pts and had lots of fun. 4 heralds + the scribes is pure win.

A Nurgle herald on palanquin is dangerous and with regeneration very survivable, equal to a 3 wound model. Plus their gifts really bolster the rank and file daemons. I was looking into the scribes for my tzeentch force and it's almost a must take IMO.

TIZNE
29-04-2008, 19:34
Soul of Iron, I think that you'd be better playing that DP as a herald. xD

Thanks to every one who posted reports of your armies! It seems that this new book will bring great glory to the Ruinous Four!

andy10k
29-04-2008, 21:01
Hmm I've been thinking about the Lord choice situation for a while now too, as even though each of them are monsters at what they do, it doesn't free many points for anything else :( Do people reckon that just a few Heralds leading the field would be fine? Up against competitive armies that is.

javaguru
29-04-2008, 21:11
Hmm I've been thinking about the Lord choice situation for a while now too, as even though each of them are monsters at what they do, it doesn't free many points for anything else :( Do people reckon that just a few Heralds leading the field would be fine? Up against competitive armies that is.

That's my plan, Heralds of Nurgle are pretty resilient for a 2w model.

isidril93
29-04-2008, 21:16
a deamon prince will be useful to help a greater daemon
imagine a keeper of secrets M10
a flying daemon prince

about 300 points cheapoer than 2 greater daemons

Gralph!?!
29-04-2008, 21:35
personally i will be using slaanesh daemon princes, the reaons being that i will give it flight, siren song and fly it up to a flank of a low leadership army or behind an elite one. use the ability and cause a string of panic tests which ought to be rather amusing.

the daemon prince is cheap, can hide unlike greater deamons and has some more survivability against missiles and such unlike heralds. if not then give a daemon prince the etherblade and thats all, then you will have a 350 point model that is still rather hard and has a very decent charge range and then go knight hunting. i would be alot happier to use them if the marks of chaos actually gave benefits instead of being allowed to take gifts from the other greater daemons hich would be a little better.

Chris_Tzeentch
29-04-2008, 21:52
Palanquins are cavalry mounts, pg 42 DoC.

Yes, I have just checked the rules. Palanquins FTW!

Soul of Iron
30-04-2008, 02:56
I think DP's for all the gods but Tzeentch may be worth their points. If I do a Khornate demon list I will definitely be fielding a DP.

Flying nurgle croakers landing behind units and puking on them is real fun

Chris_Tzeentch
30-04-2008, 11:58
I think DP's for all the gods but Tzeentch may be worth their points. If I do a Khornate demon list I will definitely be fielding a DP.

Flying nurgle croakers landing behind units and puking on them is real fun

The resilience issue bothers me - not sure on the points at the moment (book at home), but I suspect that trapping of Nurgle, wings and a blast template ability would cost too much.

Mind you, if you could do it, casting plague wind and generating some Nurglings in the units rear would be really amusing.

Personally, I would seriously miss having a Lvl 4 mage. The GUO is far more resilient, plus the model is too good to miss out on.

Out of interest, how are you Nurgle guys equipping your GUOs?

oCoYoRoAoKo
30-04-2008, 14:10
you couldnt afford all of it - trappings and the wings come to 70 points total, and you only have 5 points left (and a full greater daemon upgrade allowance)

heinrichvoncarstein
30-04-2008, 15:42
i know this is off topic but.... can gd(large targets) join units

Gralph!?!
30-04-2008, 16:33
i think you can join units as nothing stops you at all but you can always be targetted and you can only join a unit with your own mark. in most cases it is rather pointless as your faster than the rest as well so the only unit that may be best in a unit is the great unclean one but again he is much faster by himself.

javaguru
30-04-2008, 16:41
i know this is off topic but.... can gd(large targets) join units

No, pg 30 DoC lower right "Daemon Characters."

javaguru
30-04-2008, 16:45
The resilience issue bothers me - not sure on the points at the moment (book at home), but I suspect that trapping of Nurgle, wings and a blast template ability would cost too much.

Mind you, if you could do it, casting plague wind and generating some Nurglings in the units rear would be really amusing.

Personally, I would seriously miss having a Lvl 4 mage. The GUO is far more resilient, plus the model is too good to miss out on.

Out of interest, how are you Nurgle guys equipping your GUOs?

Every list I've seen or made has a GUO with trappings of nurgle, I think it's the default must take.

Chris_Tzeentch
30-04-2008, 17:52
My biggest issue with the GUO is the lack of attacks, and no rerolls to hit available, although when Epidemius is doing his thing, its easy to get the poisoned hits going.

Wargamejunkie
30-04-2008, 20:54
I was thinking about starting a pure Nurgle list and wanted to know what was the average amount of troops/characters people have.

The basics of my first run Nurgle list were

GUO
2X Herald (1 BSB)
Nurgle Special Character
3X units of Plague Bearers
2X units of Furies
1 unit of Nurglings

I personally love the Nurgle Magic list and wanted to give it a try which is why I am going character heavy.

javaguru
01-05-2008, 00:36
I was thinking about starting a pure Nurgle list and wanted to know what was the average amount of troops/characters people have.

The basics of my first run Nurgle list were

GUO
2X Herald (1 BSB)
Nurgle Special Character
3X units of Plague Bearers
2X units of Furies
1 unit of Nurglings

I personally love the Nurgle Magic list and wanted to give it a try which is why I am going character heavy.

That looks similar to a lot of lists I've seen people post on the net. It looks like most are maxing characters to take advantage of the locus of nurgle rule. Unfortunately, something the talleyman doesn't have.:(

javaguru
01-05-2008, 00:44
My biggest issue with the GUO is the lack of attacks, and no rerolls to hit available, although when Epidemius is doing his thing, its easy to get the poisoned hits going.

I plan on using him to cover my exposed flank. His strength is sheer resilience and ability to "wear down" units that will threaten your flank. With trappings, noxious vapors and a BSB nearby he can hold a flank almost indefinitely while wearing down units. Don't forget, Miasma of Pestilece is your friend. Some plan on running a beasts of Nurgle unit with him to make him harder hitting.

anuburos
01-05-2008, 04:23
In my 2000pt nurgle list I'm running 2 units of 2 beasts. One unit will definately be next to my GUO for hitting power. I plan to put the GUO centered in the action so he will be a HUGE tarpit.

How is everyone arming their GUO? Mine's a lvl 3 wizard with trappings, and slime trail for 595. I wanted Pestilence mucous but he starts getting expensive and not too much better.

Other characters will be 2 heralds: One is a battle standard with slime trail and the banner that's -2 casting for 200. The other is a lvl 1 wizard with the staff of nurgle for 215.

heinrichvoncarstein
01-05-2008, 12:46
I will either start a nurgle or khorne army depends when I see the book really. But as far as i know this will be my 2000 pts list(don't have the book yet so i'm just guessing):
1 guo
bluescribes
epidemius
khorne herald
2xPlague Bearers
1xfuries
1xbloodletters
2xbeasts of nurgle
1xbloodcrushers(2 of them in one unit)
1xscreamers

Thalenchar
01-05-2008, 19:23
hello my fellow daemonists,

I just had a quick question that I couldn't clearly get from reading this wonderful tactica. How does it work now with mixing marks? Do we still have the rule from the mortals book that we can't include other marks than undivided and the general's mark? Or could I use a bloodthirster, plaguebearers, seekers and flamers (for instance?

Thanks :)

Nightsword
01-05-2008, 19:42
hello my fellow daemonists,

I just had a quick question that I couldn't clearly get from reading this wonderful tactica. How does it work now with mixing marks? Do we still have the rule from the mortals book that we can't include other marks than undivided and the general's mark? Or could I use a bloodthirster, plaguebearers, seekers and flamers (for instance?

Thanks

You can use any combination of marks you like. A lord of change can be general of an army that contains bloodletters and plaguebearers for instance. Anything goes.

Nabeshin1106
01-05-2008, 23:45
hello my fellow daemonists,

I just had a quick question that I couldn't clearly get from reading this wonderful tactica. How does it work now with mixing marks? Do we still have the rule from the mortals book that we can't include other marks than undivided and the general's mark? Or could I use a bloodthirster, plaguebearers, seekers and flamers (for instance?

Thanks :)

The only mark restriction is that Heralds can only join units of their own god. Slaanesh Heralds can only join Daemonettes and Seekers, Nurgle Heralds can only join Plaguebearers, etc.

Dux Ducis
02-05-2008, 01:36
Which makes perfect sense really - the Chaos powers work together, but only up until a point.

Your Mum Rang
02-05-2008, 11:07
This is my current Undivided army. It's headed for 2250pts and I have filled 1925pts so far. I've playtested it a lot though the Daemonettes and Nurglings are new. Here it is...

Characters:
Herald of Nurgle: Palanquin - BSB - Standard of Sundering - Slime Trail - Noxious Vapours @ 270pts
The Masque @ 90pts

Core:
20 Plaguebearers: Full Command - Standard of Seeping Decay @ 295pts
10 Daemonettes @ 120pts
10 Daemonettes @ 120pts
10 Furies @ 120pts

Special:
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
4 Nurglings @ 140pts
4 Nurglings @ 140pts

Rare:
6 Flamers @ 210pts

1925pts

So, what do I need. This list (aside from the Nurglings and Daemonettes - always testing!) has many of the things I've found to be awesome in games. The Plaguebearers are an amazing anvil. The Flesh Hounds are capable of taking weaker troops to the front and are horrific on the flanks. The Flamers are beasty too, being able to guard my lines from Great Eagles or hop into a building and blast away.

Anyway, any suggestions for the last 325pts?

RobG
02-05-2008, 12:45
With the cost of the units it seems hard to make a competitive list at low points values. I prefer to play smaller games around the 1000 point mark.

I see nobody is really taking skulltaker here, why is that? He seems a great option for his points cost considering the 5+ killing blow.

I'm looking at:

Skulltaker
Nurgle Herald

1 Unit Plaguebearers
1 Unit bloodletters

Screamers
Nurglings

Flamers

Read the book today but can't remember exact points costs for unit numbers, waiting on my pre-ordered army book.

Gralph!?!
02-05-2008, 12:57
the skulltakers has killing blow ofn a 5+ ONLY in a challenge.
yes he is cool and all but not that great at what he does as if someone refuses then he is then the same as a normal herald.

now for the lists that people are making, i would suggest small units of loodletters instead of the daemonettes, they move a little faster than plaguebearers and so can guard flanks and cause alot more damage in them than a daemonette. isf some people are usig small units in there army i really strongly suggest that they make them to be 15 strong wih command so they can act independantly if need be. all it takes is for someone to charge the daemonettes instead nad out goues your battle plan quite easily. with unit strength 15 they still have some combat res and canat least hold a couple of turnseven if theylose combat and take a horrible leadership test killing most, they would still be there. my opinion is that daemonettes and bloodletters are **** weak if you keep them at such unit sizes as a bog standard unit of anything that has full ranks and such pretty much auto beats you.

Your Mum Rang
02-05-2008, 14:09
I kinda agree.... I have the points to bulk them up too.

How's this?
Characters:
Herald of Nurgle: Palanquin - BSB - Standard of Sundering - Slime Trail - Noxious Vapours @ 270pts
Herald of Slaanesh: Siren Song @ 115pts
The Masque @ 90pts

Core:
20 Plaguebearers: Full Command - Standard of Seeping Decay @ 295pts
18 Bloodletters: Full Command - Banner of Endless War @ 271pts
17 Daemonettes: Full Command - Banner of Ecstasy @ 259pts
10 Furies @ 120pts

Special:
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
3 Nurglings @ 105pts
3 Nurglings @ 105pts

Rare:
6 Flamers @ 210pts

2250pts

SPYDER68
02-05-2008, 17:46
Any openions on Karanak ? he seems like a very nice option to the Khorne dogs for only 75 points.

Famder
03-05-2008, 03:09
He's an overpriced champion. For those points he gets very little and one of his best traits is only effective against one character the entire game.

Gralph!?!
03-05-2008, 03:17
I kinda agree.... I have the points to bulk them up too.

How's this?
Characters:
Herald of Nurgle: Palanquin - BSB - Standard of Sundering - Slime Trail - Noxious Vapours @ 270pts
Herald of Slaanesh: Siren Song @ 115pts
The Masque @ 90pts

Core:
20 Plaguebearers: Full Command - Standard of Seeping Decay @ 295pts
18 Bloodletters: Full Command - Banner of Endless War @ 271pts
17 Daemonettes: Full Command - Banner of Ecstasy @ 259pts
10 Furies @ 120pts

Special:
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
6 Flesh Hounds @ 210pts
3 Nurglings @ 105pts
3 Nurglings @ 105pts

Rare:
6 Flamers @ 210pts

2250pts

the cheecky way would be to have 16 plague bearers in the unit as the palanquin would then make it up to the unit size 20. you won't be out numbering easily but it will still be cheaper to get the extra ranks.

a single unit of nurglings is sufficient on what there task is, to sit around annoying the hell out of some enemy units and stops things from marching. i would try to get a unit of the really hard hitting things in the army. say a unit of 3 blood crushers or the cheaper rout of 3 fiends of slaanesh who can take on an entire unit if you flank charge them.

Dux Ducis
03-05-2008, 07:24
I'm thinking -

Characters:
LoC
The Masque
Herald of Slaanesh + extra arms
Herald of Tzeentch BSB

Core:
12 Daemonettes: 6 wide, full command
12 Daemonettes: 6 wide, full command
15 Bloodletters: 5 wide, full command
6 Furies

Special:
5 Mounted Daemonettes: musician
5 Screamers
5 Screamers

Rare:
5 Flamers
5 Flamers

Should hopefully come in around 2250. Add in a unit of 12 or 15 horrors to bring it up to 2,500. I think that Tzeentch+Slaanesh have a great synergy (as Khorne+Nurgle).

Your Mum Rang
03-05-2008, 11:50
a single unit of nurglings is sufficient on what there task is, to sit around annoying the hell out of some enemy units and stops things from marching. i would try to get a unit of the really hard hitting things in the army. say a unit of 3 blood crushers or the cheaper rout of 3 fiends of slaanesh who can take on an entire unit if you flank charge them.

Are you kidding? Flesh Hounds are ridiculously hitty. I'd take them over Bloodcruchers any day. 12 T4 wounds vs 6 T4 wounds. They've been consistently badass in every game I've played.

I will take your suggestion and have only 1 unit of Nurglings though. 4/5 should do. Then I can add another unit of Fleshies!!!

RobG
03-05-2008, 16:07
Why are people taking furies over screamers?

Your Mum Rang
03-05-2008, 17:24
Furies are cheaper and Screamers are now very fragile.

Lijacote
03-05-2008, 17:46
Not to mention they fulfill a different role. Screamers are pretty large and fragile for their size while furies have a smaller base size. You could, for example, hide a unit or two of screamers behind your (possibly fragile) infantry and threaten anything trying to get within charge range while still staying out of sight of deadly missile fire. Furies... well, I don't know too much about them but they seem really, really good mage/warmachine hunters. Just keep your general near them if you want them to survive instability.

Am I in the wrong?

Your Mum Rang
03-05-2008, 18:09
Not at all. You're spot on.

If you're gonna take Screamers, take em in large numbers. A pure Tzeentch list with 4 x 5 Screamers sitting behind blocks of Horrors is a nasty prospect. You need to charge them to silence their magic but to do that you're facing 20 S5 hits on possibly more than 1 unit.

Aaron Chapman
03-05-2008, 22:27
I have found that Bloodletters in groups of 35 still take massive casualties from shooting and definitly need to be big in order to reach the enemy. Their apparent weakness in combat is quickly removed by adding a Herald on a Juggernaut who costs the same as 4 'letters and takes up the space of 4 too and adds 2 attacks to replace the 2 front models it takes away. So the Jugger is essentially "free" and your Herald gets his attacks in addition to the normal attacks a unit would have without him making it much more killy. Meanwhile he has a 0+ save and great strength/ws and boosts leadership. The hatred is pretty darn powerful if you can make a charge withthe unit and pretty much garuntees you'll win by a wide margin. Hatred however means the enemy might be able to draw you off a bit through the forced pursuit/overrun, but this will only apply in a few situations against very good opponents who know how to manipulate enemy movements. For the most part the addition of the Skull Totem will mean the standard delay tactics won't work against the bloodletters since they can't be march blocked, making it a max of 3 turns until these units are in combat.

I'm really liking these units their cost-to-effect ratio is very high. Small units of 10-15 might be good enough, but I expect you'll find they die too fast to be of use unkless the rest of the army is extremely fast and engages the enemy missile/magic units early on.

Tuch
03-05-2008, 22:39
I'm really liking the Bloodletters as well though in blocks of 16 and 20 with a juggernaut. 35 is just to many points for a single unit.

Gralph!?!
03-05-2008, 23:49
I have found that Bloodletters in groups of 35 still take massive casualties from shooting and definitly need to be big in order to reach the enemy. Their apparent weakness in combat is quickly removed by adding a Herald on a Juggernaut who costs the same as 4 'letters and takes up the space of 4 too and adds 2 attacks to replace the 2 front models it takes away. So the Jugger is essentially "free" and your Herald gets his attacks in addition to the normal attacks a unit would have without him making it much more killy. Meanwhile he has a 0+ save and great strength/ws and boosts leadership. The hatred is pretty darn powerful if you can make a charge withthe unit and pretty much garuntees you'll win by a wide margin. Hatred however means the enemy might be able to draw you off a bit through the forced pursuit/overrun, but this will only apply in a few situations against very good opponents who know how to manipulate enemy movements. For the most part the addition of the Skull Totem will mean the standard delay tactics won't work against the bloodletters since they can't be march blocked, making it a max of 3 turns until these units are in combat.

I'm really liking these units their cost-to-effect ratio is very high. Small units of 10-15 might be good enough, but I expect you'll find they die too fast to be of use unkless the rest of the army is extremely fast and engages the enemy missile/magic units early on.

i think your math is a bit screwy. a herald of khorne on a juggernaught will cost at least 150pts and the 4 letters you wuld take cost 48pts. so a unit of 16 with fulll command would cost 222pts and then another 150 for the juggernaught simply for the purposes of having hatred and an extra strength 5 attack over taking a unit of 20 with a herald on foot. this to me seems pointless as the jugger option costs you 372 points for 16 letters with juggermounted herald leading the unit. while a unit of 20 with a herald would be 370pts. now you get an extra attack over the the 20 letters but there are things you sacrifice for it. you pay 2 more points and you will have less unit strength for out numbering, you will have less models in the unit to soak up fire power effrectivly making it much easier to lose your over all rank bonus. if the herald is challnged then you will lose most of your attacks for the unit.

a unit of 15 will be the optimum sizes for me as if i charge i will be wanting to lay the hurt on the enemy units instead of breaking them not to mention they would have flesh hound or fiend support.

Dux Ducis
04-05-2008, 01:01
Ay, units of 15 Bloodletters should fit the bill, Daemonettes work best in small units of 10 and 12, and plaguebearers in units of 20.

Horrors can be in many different combinations, depending on what your army is comprised of - they are best used as a support unit.

Tuch
04-05-2008, 01:19
a herald of khorne on a juggernaught will cost at least 150pts and the 4 letters you wuld take cost 48pts. so a unit of 16 with fulll command would cost 222pts and then another 150 for the juggernaught simply for the purposes of having hatred and an extra strength 5 attack over taking a unit of 20 with a herald on foot. this to me seems pointless as the jugger option costs you 372 points for 16 letters with juggermounted herald leading the unit. while a unit of 20 with a herald would be 370pts. now you get an extra attack over the the 20 letters but there are things you sacrifice for it. you pay 2 more points and you will have less unit strength for out numbering, you will have less models in the unit to soak up fire power effrectivly making it much easier to lose your over all rank bonus. if the herald is challnged then you will lose most of your attacks for the unit.

My unit of 16 is with bearer and musician (210) + herald on juggernaut with armor of Khorne (165) for a total of 375. I don't tend to take champions in units with fighty heroes and in a challenge our herald mounted juggernaut should win most with a nice overkill bonus to make up for lost attacks on RnF.

I also consider the points spent on hatred to be worth while as it helps increase the odds of hitting and therefore, hopefully, outnumbering. US 18 is not that bad as opposed to US 20 on such a strong hitting unit IMHO. Though 4 models vs 1 does go a ways in helping soak up ranged attacks so your way is probably more optimum if facing allot of missile fire. Though I am also noticing that their appears to be a lot of units with Daemons that our opponents will want to shoot at however good or bad that is for us.

shartmatau
04-05-2008, 04:42
I've been thinking about how to stop or lessen the number of shots coming in on our poor daemon friends. And then I saw fateweaver. While he is absolutely horrible in combat his magic choices are amazing. You can choose spells from any lore making him able to set up combos of spells with amazing ability. Even if you don't take him you can use a standard LoC and get the Howler Wind spell. Keeping several units near the LoC will eliminate all small arms fire to those units. It sounds like a decent plan that I am going to try out in a large game where I can get two lords.

Dux Ducis
04-05-2008, 05:27
I like that idea.

Daemons lack cheap skirmish screens to protect their units from enemy fire - non-magic heavy armies will have a tough time against shooty Dwarf, Empire and Elf armies.

Max zero
04-05-2008, 06:08
I have found that Bloodletters in groups of 35 still take massive casualties from shooting and definitly need to be big in order to reach the enemy. Their apparent weakness in combat is quickly removed by adding a Herald on a Juggernaut who costs the same as 4 'letters and takes up the space of 4 too and adds 2 attacks to replace the 2 front models it takes away. So the Jugger is essentially "free" and your Herald gets his attacks in addition to the normal attacks a unit would have without him making it much more killy. Meanwhile he has a 0+ save and great strength/ws and boosts leadership. The hatred is pretty darn powerful if you can make a charge withthe unit and pretty much garuntees you'll win by a wide margin. Hatred however means the enemy might be able to draw you off a bit through the forced pursuit/overrun, but this will only apply in a few situations against very good opponents who know how to manipulate enemy movements. For the most part the addition of the Skull Totem will mean the standard delay tactics won't work against the bloodletters since they can't be march blocked, making it a max of 3 turns until these units are in combat.

I'm really liking these units their cost-to-effect ratio is very high. Small units of 10-15 might be good enough, but I expect you'll find they die too fast to be of use unkless the rest of the army is extremely fast and engages the enemy missile/magic units early on.

Since when do Juggernoughts count as 2 models for the purposes of rank bonus? The rules says 5 models not 3 models and a extra big guy.

Anytime you hear the phrase " So the Jugger is essentially "free" " alarm bells should be ringing.

By that logic I should be able to stick a 100 point Corpse Cart into my Grave Guard unit and get it for 'free' since its 2 x 4 and I can drop 8 Grave Guard right?

Tuch
04-05-2008, 06:46
Since when do Juggernoughts count as 2 models for the purposes of rank bonus? The rules says 5 models not 3 models and a extra big guy.

If the model's "proper" base fills the ranks (a juggernaut takes the space of 4 bloodletters) then the rank bonus applies. However the herald on a juggernaut is only US 2 not 4 so in a 5 wide x 4 rank unit the total US is only 18 not 20.

lokigod
04-05-2008, 07:07
I like that idea.

Daemons lack cheap skirmish screens to protect their units from enemy fire - non-magic heavy armies will have a tough time against shooty Dwarf, Empire and Elf armies.

hmm furies do a pretty good job for drawing fire :) A matter of fact 3 units of 5 only cost you 180 points and can cause major march blocking and shooting screens for you :)

Other than that pb will be really good to soak up pain and point denial!

Max zero
04-05-2008, 07:15
If the model's "proper" base fills the ranks (a juggernaut takes the space of 4 bloodletters) then the rank bonus applies. However the herald on a juggernaut is only US 2 not 4 so in a 5 wide x 4 rank unit the total US is only 18 not 20.

Where is this from? Not that i'm saying your wrong but I would like to see where (BRB, errata, etc) it says this.

Tuch
04-05-2008, 07:39
The best I can find atm: Page 38 BRB Extra Rank, "if your unit's formation is at least 5 models wide you may claim a rank bonus"

Bloodletters are on 25x25 mm bases. Juggernauts are on 50x50 mm bases. ranked like this:

bbJJb
bbJJb
bbbbb
bbbbb

the unit is 5 wide, regardless of the fact that 4 actual spaces are being filled by a single model.

Max zero
04-05-2008, 08:09
But your saying that one model counts as 4. If that Jugger was on its own would you count it as 4 models?

Page 8 of the BRB under cavalry:



A cavalry model is treated in all respects as a single model.


Does the Jugger have one or two wounds (don't have the book). If its counted as a monstrous mount the following is said:

Page 59 of the BRB under monstrous mounts:



A monster and its rider or riders count as a single model in the same was as a cavalry model, although different rules apply.


Under the different rules there is not mention of counting as anything other then a single model.

andy10k
04-05-2008, 09:06
Yeah the jugger doesn't supply you with 3 extra free models for RaF bonuses, it just counts as 1 in the front rank, so you would need to be effectively 6 models wide to get rank bonuses in the second rank. The only exception to this is the Lizardsmen Slann rules, where it actually says it takes up 4 models where the base covers, for rank and file purposes.

Latro
04-05-2008, 09:54
AFAIK nothing has been rules/FAQ/errata'd on these situations so everything depends on personal interpretations ... which means no one is more right than the others.

From what I remember (but you might want to search the rules forum for that) the general agreement is that models on a large base counts as a model for determining rank bonus in each rank they displace the regular models.

So in the Juggernaut + Bloodletter unit it can provide a full rank in the first and second rank if at least 4 Bloodletters are present beside (and 4 in the second rank of course).

But nothing is official (not even the arument that it just counts as one model in just the front rank).


:cool:

Tuch
04-05-2008, 15:14
I knew I had seen a picture and explanation of large bases counting as ranks before :).

http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/chronicles/assets/Q&A2003.pdf
bottom of second page

True this was 6th edition but these rules haven't really changed.

BTW I have never seen this topic argued in actual play before, for whatever that is worth.

There is also an older thread on this topic in the rules forum so in order not to hijack this thread any further I guess we should either move the discussion to there or start another.

Max zero
04-05-2008, 16:28
Well well well just when I thought it was clearcut its not. While that is directly on point its also 5 years old. You would think the FAQed answer would appear in the current rulebook if its been an issue before.

But grats on finding some rules on this.

andy10k
04-05-2008, 17:19
When it says "characters.." does this mean that a corpse cart wont give you an extra 6 RaF?

This is quite interesting :D

Max zero
04-05-2008, 17:31
When it says "characters.." does this mean that a corpse cart wont give you an extra 6 RaF?

This is quite interesting :D

Depends if the ruling only applies to cavalry mounts or monstrous mounts too.

The examples shown seem to show it does.

Latro
04-05-2008, 17:59
It's clear enough to use as a guideline ... if people complain you could always ask them to point the rule in the book that says you can't use character/mounts with a large base this way.

So yes, it's an interesting and effective way to bring more power to a unit for a minimal amount of points.


:cool:

BoosterX
06-05-2008, 13:09
I wonder how daemons are going to handle dragons such as star and sun dragons..

Or even bret charges...

Max zero
06-05-2008, 13:27
I wonder how daemons are going to handle dragons such as star and sun dragons..

Or even bret charges...

To be honest not to well. Daemons have fantastic troops but they are expensive. Static CR is not their forte.

Daemons are the epitome of the phrase 'can dish it out but can't take it'.

BoosterX
06-05-2008, 13:28
Daemons are the epitome of the phrase 'can dish it out but can't take it'.

Explains why my x-wife runs hell.

foehammer888
06-05-2008, 14:44
I wonder how daemons are going to handle dragons such as star and sun dragons.. Several ways:

1) Magic
- Bolt of change: will blow a dragon into next week with 2D6 Str D6+4 hits, unless it rolls really low on both dice. On average its 7 Strength 7.5 hits. That's wounding on 2-3 with no armor saves.
- Nurgle Spells: there are several which severly limit the effectiveness of units in base contact.

2) Poison - all nurgle attacks are poisoned, meaning they can do bad things to large creatures

3) Greater daemons - they are basically dragons that are often also wizards, and can take 100 points of special abilities.

I think daemons are actually better aligned to taking out dragons than most armies. One of their biggest benefits is they get ward saves, not armor saves. Its true its only a 5+ (sometimes 4+) ward, but unlike a 4+ or 3+ armor save, its always a 5+, even when faced with S6/7 dragon attacks.

Foehammer

SPYDER68
06-05-2008, 14:53
Just a little to report from my game last night.

was a 1k point game.

Bloodletters were meh, they did ok but nothing special, then again they were against Knights, i did enjoy them thou, when i was able to get 2 killing blows at once it was well worth it.

Daemonetts with a Battle Standard Herald weilding an etherblade was great, the squad with first strike was very effective in a squad size of 16, was able to keep up a pretty good combat resolution vs the Britonian knights.

Flesh hounds i didnt get to use so much, i had 5 and was going to counter charge as soon as one of his 2 squads broke throu one of my daemon squads but they didnt get the chance.

And the allstar of the game was my Herald of Tzeentch with power vortex and Disc.
Flew 20 inches across the board in front of some archers and did the hits all units within 12" with d6 str d6 hits. of course didnt scratch the archers but it hit a squad of pegasses knights and they ran off the table first turn.

And later i killed 5 knights in 1 turn with this spell, and a few misc models throu the game.

Overall thou, i loved the army, Daemonetts are wonderful with first strike, they wouldnt of lived long without the herald vs the knights.

Re-rolling the instability tests was very very nice to be able to do also to avoid wounds when i did lose combat.

Gaftra
06-05-2008, 16:25
has anyone looked at taking a no lord, all herald list? looking at:
Herald/skulltaker on bloodcrusher
Herald on palanquin
Herald on disk
Herald on disk

Putting the khorne and nurgle heralds in units with the disks running back up and covering your magic phase along with the nurgle herald. i think this can be a fair potent combo since you arent sinking 500+ points in one model but rather making 2 or 3 hammer units. but might have trouble with monsters.

Wargamejunkie
06-05-2008, 16:34
That is the only problem that I have really thought about the daemon list.

The only way to effectively take out monsters is too bring our own.


I have been toying with an all nurgle list but I have yet to find a way to deal with a lord on a dragon without hoping I get that LV1 spell off. And besides it may work once but I bet you they would hold all their dispell dice for it next time.

SPYDER68
06-05-2008, 17:01
Khorne herald with bloodcrushers could take out some monsters.. maybe.

Herald with Firestorm blade and Armour of Khorne.

Gaftra
06-05-2008, 17:12
in an all nurgle list its worth it to take epidemius and try to put off the lord on a dragon battle for a turn or two until you can cause some casualties. The GUO is a amazing tar pit (even if hes an over priced tar pit) but he can definitely stand toe to toe with any character until you can smash him with another unit.

also beasts of nurgle are great. for reals.

Stouty
06-05-2008, 17:59
I know some people really don't like taking DoW for whatever reasons, and that it might seem a bit odd going by the background to daemons to hire more soldiers but I was having a thought.

Gav Thorpe basically said that even though DoW won't be appearing as a rare choice in new armybooks if the DoW rules tell you that you can take them, go right ahead.

So I was thinking, Duelists serving as screens for expensive but fragile(ish) daemon infantry. You could model them as just some other form of Daemon (I'm sure there are more than 5 types of nurgle daemon) but they could be remarkable useful.

A unit of 10 sets you back 50pts. A unit of 20 sets you back 100pts. That's 8 plaguebearers in real terms.

For 100pts you could shield your unit of bloodletters or plaguebearers for as long as you needed. Considering the general with Ld 8 or more is likely to be nearby, and the BSB in your anvil unit as well, the chances of them passing a panic test are quite high. Also they do not cause panic in the rest of the army, so the risk is minimal.

You see most missile fire is only useful for taking ranks off of infantry and tipping the odds in your favour.

It takes 180 Shots from handgunners at long range to kill off 20 duelists, skirmishing+mass wounds really are that good. Or 90 shots at close range. That's about 20 bloodletters on average.

Also if they survive their mission in operation Meatshield they can hide themselves away quietly, badgering wizards, blocking march moves, cross firing or (more realistically) contesting table quarters.

To me, they seem like the perfect way to round off some daemon lists, even if they do have to contest for a rare slot. I'm still ticking over how viable they are in my head, this is really just a brainstorm.

mark.
06-05-2008, 18:12
You should take into account that screens are only maginally effective, they block out the strong daemons thus hamper their movement, also some war machines will be able to shoot over the screen.

Your Mum Rang
06-05-2008, 18:31
Actually, the idea was for the DoW list to say who can use DoW. It doesn't say Daemons can.

Stouty
06-05-2008, 21:07
You should take into account that screens are only marginally effective, they block out the strong daemons thus hamper their movement, also some war machines will be able to shoot over the screen.
Effectiveness varies a lot from situation to situation. Against lots of things the 5pt duelists die significantly slower than the 12pt bloodletters. All of the time they die at a very close number of pts per turn. Many situations they just die slower than the daemons do anyway. You did raise my main concerns though:

-Getting shot over rendering them pointless

-Slowing the army down (though I designed them to protect equally paced plaguebearers it is for these that their usefulness as the screen is most debatable)

-Taking up a rare choice (I <3 Bloodcrushers)

As I have some zombie models I'm probably going to end up playtesting these at some point, I'll let you know how it goes.


Actually, the idea was for the DoW list to say who can use DoW. It doesn't say Daemons can.
It does say that Chaos can. Considering that there's never been a "Chaos" armybook I thought that meant it would stretch to Hordes of Chaos, Beasts of Chaos and Daemons of Chaos. Could be wrong there though.

Your Mum Rang
06-05-2008, 21:12
Good old GW...

Kerill
07-05-2008, 03:59
Indeed DOW are perfectly legal (and a reasonable way to represent your other chaos minis). I play without a GD and don't feel too disadvantaged by it, also allows me to invest fewer points in heroes:

Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, chariot 200
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, spellbreaker 165
Herald of Tzeentch, master of sorcery, chariot, BSB: 225
Blue Scribes 81

671 points in total.

As for dragons and big gribblies magic and some of the harder troops can also give them a go (beasts of nurgle), flamers can shoot then close and try to kill the rider and larger blocks of daemons can have a nice tasty +5CR as well- you don't need a GD to combat them (although it would make it easier). The changeling is worth a mention as well.

Chris_Tzeentch
07-05-2008, 12:19
In the Hordes of Chaos list, I am pretty certain that DoW were not permitted if the army general is deamonic. Although I agree, there is nothing in the new deamon book to explicitly prevent you from using DoW.

SPYDER68
07-05-2008, 14:11
Doesn't the book haft to say you can take dogs of war ?

I know it doesnt have the entry in the new daemon book, the old chaos book had the entry .. Not the new daemons thou..

Soul of Iron
07-05-2008, 14:25
The DOW rules state which army can use what so that's all the rules needed.

On demons, I'm trying to figure out what to do with my army. I'm a mono-God player and my Tzeentch army rocks hard but Khorne is my 2nd favorite deity and the new models are unbelievably cool (to me at least). I would love to build a Khorne list with a thirster, juggers, and hounds tearing down the battlefield, but that army suffers so terribly from lack of magical defense it's frightening (at least on paper). There are lots of magic heavy armies where I play and MR1 is completely useless. Imagine having to fight a VC army with MR1 and 2 DD. You would get pwn'd.

I have no idea what to do moving forward.

BoosterX
07-05-2008, 17:31
Mix and match. The whole point to daemons is that they usually fight together...

Personally if I was going to play against someone with a daemon list and he started to bring out DoW I'd walk away.

Kerill
07-05-2008, 20:17
Why? Its one of the few ways we can represent hordes of chaos and beastmen on the tabletop and its not as if you are improving your army any, what DOW unit can you find that it better than an equivalent daemon unit?

isidril93
07-05-2008, 20:19
The DOW rules state which army can use what so that's all the rules needed.

On demons, I'm trying to figure out what to do with my army. I'm a mono-God player and my Tzeentch army rocks hard but Khorne is my 2nd favorite deity and the new models are unbelievably cool (to me at least). I would love to build a Khorne list with a thirster, juggers, and hounds tearing down the battlefield, but that army suffers so terribly from lack of magical defense it's frightening (at least on paper). There are lots of magic heavy armies where I play and MR1 is completely useless. Imagine having to fight a VC army with MR1 and 2 DD. You would get pwn'd.

I have no idea what to do moving forward.

you could always do khorne with 1 herald of tzeentch and 2 small units of horrors

Stouty
07-05-2008, 20:25
Personally if I was going to play against someone with a daemon list and he started to bring out DoW I'd walk away.

Why? I can understand some things, like the general frustration over the old "cannon with my undead horde" thing, but usually they're a far from game breaking addition to a list. They cost a rare slot, they're usually slightly overpriced or perfectly priced for what they do, and they are unbelievably average in all of their abilities.


It's not like I sugguested taking shooting to bulk out your daemons, just a skirmishing screen. Considering the variety of daemons in the background I would think it would be perfectly valid to use the count as rules to let you use some other suitably demonic models, it seems silly to say "a daemon would never be like that".


Also DoW would be one of the few ways to bring something back of the old mixed armylist in 2k or under, even if they wouldn't be as good as they used to be. All chaos daemons players prior to the new book used mortal and beast choices as well, so why the hell shouldn't they continue to get some sort of use out of their models, even if it does mean counting your chaos knights as generic heavy cavalry, or taking norse marauders on 25mm bases (technically illegal but I can't see how you'd exploit any sort of advantage out of it). Other examples include a friend who plays VC but wants to do the Sylvanian undead/alive mix so took some pikemen to represent the normal standing army, forgoing Banshees and Coaches to do this (old VC armybook).

Gah! Sorry for the small rant, it just really bugs me when people cry over DoW like it makes an army unfair by default. Usually what people actually mean is
"I don't want to face a cannon if it isn't in his armybook"
You could debate the validity of this comment at length. However I won't, it's entirely beside the point, the cannon is ONE CHOICE ONLY out of the entire dogs of war list.

1 Choice not more than that. One. Uno. Un. Ein. Een. En. Один. 一. Ένα. رقم واحد
(and now somebody will probably come in and say "I dislike crossbows too" but that's not really the point)


From duellists to ironguts to desert dogs to some flaming halflings with a fighting cock. If you would walk away as soon as you saw the opponent had taken any DoW then you are the other sort of player that is ruining warhammer. Not the "must win even if I have to hold the other guy's mum hostage" tournament player who only derives pleasure from winning itsellf. No, you are the self sure sort of player who has it his mind that there is no other way warhammer should be played other than the sort he read on some internet forum and that anybody that does differently (regardless of what's in the rules- everyone knows that people who play by the rules are just heartless tournament players) is doing it wrong, and that you have some sort of moral high ground that means that actually, it was the other guy who was acting like a jack ass all along. I'll call this hypothetical player the Warseer player.


Sorry for that. I don't know what came over me:angel:

EDIT: Beaten to it by Keril! :D

isidril93
07-05-2008, 20:31
yep and a rare slot means one less unit of crushers/fiends/beasts/flamer which are the most powerful units in the list (besides GDs)

Neknoh
07-05-2008, 21:41
Much too tired to read all of this text, however, I bought the book today, and I must say... is it just me that feels that Nurgle is THE thing to play coupled with some Khornate units for destructiony goodness?

First of all, the Lore is a lot more devastating than that of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, it's "continious damage" spell goes for Toughness rather than Ld and as such doesn't require several other spells to be effective. The "New unit" thing is insanely good with the Nurgling Infestation as well and it's "everyone in btb goes sissy" default is nice as well.

Appart from this, the Great Unclean One+Herald+Epidemus list with loads of Nurglings and Plaguebearers looks nothing but nasty, nasty, nasty. Especially with the commulative effects of the Tally of Nurgle.

RobG
08-05-2008, 07:55
Quick question: Do the named heralds (Skulltaker, Epi, Masque) grant the herald bonus to the unit they join? Ie. The regen for plaguebearers if Epidermus joins?

Nabeshin1106
08-05-2008, 08:53
No, the named characters don't carry the Locus of their gods, so they don't grant the special ability on the unit.

Max zero
08-05-2008, 09:30
Much too tired to read all of this text, however, I bought the book today, and I must say... is it just me that feels that Nurgle is THE thing to play coupled with some Khornate units for destructiony goodness?

First of all, the Lore is a lot more devastating than that of Slaanesh and Tzeentch, it's "continious damage" spell goes for Toughness rather than Ld and as such doesn't require several other spells to be effective. The "New unit" thing is insanely good with the Nurgling Infestation as well and it's "everyone in btb goes sissy" default is nice as well.

Appart from this, the Great Unclean One+Herald+Epidemus list with loads of Nurglings and Plaguebearers looks nothing but nasty, nasty, nasty. Especially with the commulative effects of the Tally of Nurgle.

Agreed Nurgle looks like its the only force that can field anvils and take a hit. Khorne and Slaanesh seem to composed of nothing but flankers while Tzeentch seems to be about casting and shooting units.

Many of the Daemon army lists so far seem to consist of nothing but heroes/wizards and about half a dozen units each of 3-10 models. You just wonder how on Earth is that army meant to win.

BoosterX
08-05-2008, 11:44
Why? ...

Because all the units in the army book fit the theme to the army. I want to play against X army. Not X army and a bit of Y thrown in for balancing or advantages.

Either make a DoW army or use them in an Empire army. Perhaps High Elves, DE, but it better make sense.

Daemons with mercenaries...ya...OK :wtf: Sure as hell won't see that in Warhammer online.

Max zero
08-05-2008, 12:10
DoW in Chaos Daemon armies is a bit suss.

I wish we had to old 'warband' style of Chaos but in the absence of that 'Chaos only' armies are fine.

The latest Daemon book already threw the Chaos rivalries out the window. Daemonettes rubbing shoulders with Bloodletters is bad enough but then watching someone trying to explain how they are now supported by cannons would be pretty equal me walking away.

SPYDER68
08-05-2008, 13:50
Agreed Nurgle looks like its the only force that can field anvils and take a hit. Khorne and Slaanesh seem to composed of nothing but flankers while Tzeentch seems to be about casting and shooting units.

Many of the Daemon army lists so far seem to consist of nothing but heroes/wizards and about half a dozen units each of 3-10 models. You just wonder how on Earth is that army meant to win.

I did 2 heralds, 20 bloodletters 16 daemonetts and some flesh hounds and had no problems winning with daemons in the one game i played.

Stouty
08-05-2008, 17:27
Because all the units in the army book fit the theme to the army. I want to play against X army. Not X army and a bit of Y thrown in for balancing or advantages.

Either make a DoW army or use them in an Empire army. Perhaps High Elves, DE, but it better make sense.

So you're telling me the concept of crazy skirmishing, cowardly and insane little daemons that die remarkably easily couldn't possibly fit into the idea of a gibbering daemonic horde?

Personally I'll be using the duellists to represent the old pink horrors- I've always missed them. Or maybe some humans that are half way to turning into plaguebearers (if we get plastics that could be very fun to convert). To me they're not mercs from Tilea, they're just a unit with those stats. It's the wonderful thing about DoW (not RoR mind)- they're all so generic that even the smallest amount of imagination can fit most of the units into most of the armies with the appropriate models.

I suppose if you're so insistent that an a list of units that can be included in other armies, must never be used in other armies for fear of compromising theme, then that's just your opinion. Still, I think you're not giving enough credit to your fellow gamers, not all of us are nasty people out to screw you over and ruin your game.;)


DoW in Chaos Daemon armies is a bit suss.

I wish we had to old 'warband' style of Chaos but in the absence of that 'Chaos only' armies are fine.

The latest Daemon book already threw the Chaos rivalries out the window. Daemonettes rubbing shoulders with Bloodletters is bad enough but then watching someone trying to explain how they are now supported by cannons would be pretty equal me walking away.

DoW=/=Cannon but I guess you didn't say they did. To be honest I'd be pissed if I saw the a cannon in a daemon army- although it fits in better with the ancient fluff than you might imagine. Walking away might be a bit much though, game could still be interesting (as long as it wasn't every match you had to play).

ANYWAY
I'm thinking about my 2000pts list and I'm having real difficulty deciding what to take as my hard flankers- blood crushers or flesh hounds.

As I see it the advantages for the flesh hounds in this role is
-They get 2 wounds for every wound of blood crusher
-Faster and more maneuverable due to base sizes.
-Magic Resistance (3)
-Less competition in my list for special spots because I'm really tempted by fiends

Whereas Bloodcrushers
-Have an armour save
-Have killing blow and 2 strength 6 attacks
-Can have command+icons
-Can be joined by a herald
-Can act more independently of the main units

Any opinions or experience as to which would/has served you better?

Max zero
08-05-2008, 17:49
DoW=/=Cannon but I guess you didn't say they did. To be honest I'd be pissed if I saw the a cannon in a daemon army- although it fits in better with the ancient fluff than you might imagine. Walking away might be a bit much though, game could still be interesting (as long as it wasn't every match you had to play).

ANYWAY
I'm thinking about my 2000pts list and I'm having real difficulty deciding what to take as my hard flankers- blood crushers or flesh hounds.

As I see it the advantages for the flesh hounds in this role is
-They get 2 wounds for every wound of blood crusher
-Faster and more maneuverable due to base sizes.
-Magic Resistance (3)
-Less competition in my list for special spots because I'm really tempted by fiends

Whereas Bloodcrushers
-Have an armour save
-Have killing blow and 2 strength 6 attacks
-Can have command+icons
-Can be joined by a herald
-Can act more independently of the main units

Any opinions or experience as to which would/has served you better?

Well I can't help you with how they played (I played against them as VC) but I can give you opinions on how they came across.

Bloodcrushers are powerful on the charge and are great versus non undead. In my games against them they ended up getting bogged down and then KBed. 0+ AS ain't much good when your head gets chopped off.

Flesh Hounds seemed to be much more effective. They have a easier time getting the US to break ranks from flank attacks. They are also less vulnerable to Cannons/Bolt Throwers (from the games I saw) and KB.

Kerill
08-05-2008, 18:19
... what stouty said.

DOW units don't have to be mercs they can be chaos followers, cultists, beastmen- you name it. You don't take a paymaster. I see DOW as a way to use my other chaos models or do something different for a change. Also I have a Tzeentch daemon force which my opponents are finding somewhat frustrating to play against so I can add in DOW occasionally to give them something a bit different. I don't have enough other daemon troops to run undivided and won't buy another GW Chaos model until 8th edition comes round.

Your Mum Rang
08-05-2008, 18:58
Flesh Hounds are amazing.

L192837465
08-05-2008, 19:34
how about 2 big blocks (of 10) DoW heavy cavalry, on top of the flesh hounds and big fear causing units.

THATs why DoW should not be allowed in a deamonic army. not just from the cannon, but from tha halfling hotpot (far more rediculous imo) and heavy cav in an army that is almost devoid of armour saves.

John Vaughan
08-05-2008, 20:07
I personally vouch for bloodcrushers, with Skulltaker on a juggernaught leading them. I just think its kool to see a unit romp across the battle field right up to a dragon, and then proceed to have the crushers take the head off the rider, while skulltaker snips the head off the dragon...enough reason for me!

Coenono
08-05-2008, 20:38
Either I misread something or im the only one who noticed it (Im guessing misread ue to no one else posting it in the two pages since the pdf link), but In the q&a does this mean that a character on mount cannot have the look out sir rule and also able to be picked out in the unit he joined?

This would sure suck for people useing orc on a boar in a unit of orc or goblins. IE ME.

As far as the dogs of war debate. Why do they have to be paid? The could just be lured by the gods of chaos to do there biding... just a thought.

More of a rant here, but is it me or does it seem everytime there is a battle box or a spearhead it has completely useless models in it. The demon spear head is a rip off.. You get the four special characters, so unless your going to play at 3k your getting screwed out of a GD. And you get 3 rare items so right of the bat you have a useless model in most games unless you play alot of large games. And unless i didnt add things up right you save a whole 20 bucks for buying the spear head vs buying what you want. WOOOOOOOO!!!! What a saveings. Also there is no good reason why they couldnt have all the core counldnt be plastic other than lazyness and poor foresite/management skills. If freaking amazed gw has been around as a company as long as they have.

I havent seen to much on the Birdfather has anyone used him. Im wondering which GD to buy if i make a deamon army since mortals looke like there going to take the staff of change up the a$$.

studderigdave
08-05-2008, 20:42
so skulltaker can take a jugger, does that make his scaly skin save a 0+? 3+ base plus a 3 bonus for the jugger? or am i reading to far into the rules?

shartmatau
08-05-2008, 21:16
thats right. Skulltaker on a jug has 0+ and 5+ ward.

Stouty
08-05-2008, 21:57
how about 2 big blocks (of 10) DoW heavy cavalry, on top of the flesh hounds and big fear causing units.

THATs why DoW should not be allowed in a deamonic army. not just from the cannon, but from tha halfling hotpot (far more rediculous imo) and heavy cav in an army that is almost devoid of armour saves.

Firstly I don't think the cavalry thing would be that effective really, 10 cavalry is just 4 too many for flanking and about 6 too few to be a proper block, but point taken.

More importantly I find it amazing how little faith everybody has in each other, I must have forgot the paranoia because I never remember it being like this a year ago. Why do you believe that every time you give someone a friendly option they will take it to its extremes and try to exploit it and screw you over. Maybe in tournament play I can understand (though that's really in the hands of the organizers- though I guess it's fair in a way if everybody's trying to be the best) but why so much fear over normal, friendly play. Don't you people play with your friends?:confused:

Dux Ducis
08-05-2008, 22:23
Do flesh hounds have killing blow?

Oh, and I get annoyed whenever someone mentions a 0+ save - you can't get anything better than 1+, as stated in the BRB.

Esco Thomson
08-05-2008, 22:49
Do flesh hounds have killing blow?

Oh, and I get annoyed whenever someone mentions a 0+ save - you can't get anything better than 1+, as stated in the BRB.

No.

Also, for the record you can get saves better than a 1+, it is simply that a roll of 1 always fails. It matters for purposes of high strength armor save modifiers.

Stouty
08-05-2008, 22:55
Do flesh hounds have killing blow?

Oh, and I get annoyed whenever someone mentions a 0+ save - you can't get anything better than 1+, as stated in the BRB.

No, they don't, and it's a big consideration. Generally Bloodcrushers are going to be better against tougher troops and better armour saves but for their point hounds are much more effective against your T3 4+ armour save infantry man.

I think I'll be testing flesh hounds first, proxying a couple games shouldn't be a problem really.

Also: Has anyone noticed stream of bile? For 25pts I think a strength 4 breath weapon is pretty amazing on paper, my only worry is that the template is only about 8" long, so it'll be pretty rare that it will be used at its best. Shame you can't give it to Tzeentch Heralds:evilgrin:

Neknoh
08-05-2008, 23:44
Aye, it'll be really a rare use item except for on Daemonprinces. If we are talking about gifts, then I must say Soul Hunger+Siren Song on a Keeper makes for THE ultimate Knight killer.

He's got a -4AS modifier, strikes first at I10 and rerolls rolls to wound that fail. Add in the abillity to force a charge on turn 1 by moving toward the enemy lines. If he's got the Gaze and Musk as well, then the (prefferably knightly) unit he takes on will be gone. Either a charge into 6 strength 6 attacks with a save mod of -4 and not being able to use your own leadership AND discarding the highest roll when fleeing.

Best part yet, the keeper is only worth 550 points and doesn't need slaaneshi magic to aid it, and it's not even a one trick pony, since forcing charges on cavalry units that then flees off the table or are destroyed is a wonderful thing, and after the song is used, the keeper is still very, very potent

shartmatau
08-05-2008, 23:48
Firstly I don't think the cavalry thing would be that effective really, 10 cavalry is just 4 too many for flanking and about 6 too few to be a proper block, but point taken.

More importantly I find it amazing how little faith everybody has in each other, I must have forgot the paranoia because I never remember it being like this a year ago. Why do you believe that every time you give someone a friendly option they will take it to its extremes and try to exploit it and screw you over. Maybe in tournament play I can understand (though that's really in the hands of the organizers- though I guess it's fair in a way if everybody's trying to be the best) but why so much fear over normal, friendly play. Don't you people play with your friends?:confused:

You have to remember that this is only internet people.

Personally I don't like DoW in armies because I like to play with what the army book has in it, meaning playing within the restrictions of that book. But I don't have any problems with others using them.

SPYDER68
09-05-2008, 00:15
In the DoW thing it doesnt list Chaos Daemons as being able to take any DoW ?

They are all maked with a * as in.. you cannot take them with daemons.

Stouty
09-05-2008, 01:17
They are all maked with a * as in.. you cannot take them with daemons.

Where? Where? It'd be nice to know before I started hacking up some old plaguebearers :D

SPYDER68
09-05-2008, 13:58
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/assets/dogs_of_war.pdf

It says from the older Hordes of Chaos book, but from the looks of it, its not meant to be for a deamon army to take non deamons in it.

Stouty
09-05-2008, 18:40
http://us.games-workshop.com/games/warhammer/gaming/dogsofwar/assets/dogs_of_war.pdf

It says from the older Hordes of Chaos book, but from the looks of it, its not meant to be for a deamon army to take non deamons in it.

Curses! No wonder I couldn't find it on the uk website, it wasn't there.

Oh well, I have 100pts to play around with now, shame I can't use those conversions.

More on topic: How many units of furies do you think is too many? I think I have a problem, every time i sit down to build a list I find myself thinking "another unit of furies wouldn't hurt". I love these guys so much! Only the best defended of dwarven war machines isn't going to autobreak from these guys, and 2 units attacking the same target almost guarantees success. They can block marches, hunt mages and hold table quarters. The best thing is they're a core choice!

So how many units do you take of them? (0 is an unacceptable answer unless you play with slaanesh :D)

kdh88
09-05-2008, 19:14
how about 2 big blocks (of 10) DoW heavy cavalry, on top of the flesh hounds and big fear causing units.

THATs why DoW should not be allowed in a deamonic army. not just from the cannon, but from tha halfling hotpot (far more rediculous imo) and heavy cav in an army that is almost devoid of armour saves.

How is that different from using the old HoC demonic army in and using chaos knights? Heck, those only required specials instead of rares like the DoW heavy cav.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
09-05-2008, 19:23
Right...as Esco pointed out ...when you've got a 0+ Armor Save (as Skulltaker or any Herald of Khorne with Armor of Khorne/Obsidian Armor and a Juggernaut can)....you can laugh off units that previously would have seemed terrifying.

White Lions with STR-6 ! Yikes ! That big -3 Armor Save modifier only results in you going from 0+ --> 1+ --> 2+ --> 3+ !

You still get a 3+ Armor Save and a 5+ Ward Save against STR-6 attacks !

That's amazing resilience.


Arrows or standard STR-3 troopers ? Please ! 2+ Armor Save...followed by the 5+ Ward Save ! :evilgrin:

If you handle him correctly, Skulltaker should be around for a loooong time (assuming you don't make a habit of rolling 1's or 2's too often - lol).

Max zero
09-05-2008, 19:25
Shoot him with a Cannon ball.

Malagant
09-05-2008, 20:29
Yeah Ward Save! :)


Shoot him with a Cannon ball.

fubukii
09-05-2008, 20:53
ah great cannons sigmars answer to kill anything.

ChaseyBoy27
09-05-2008, 21:02
you cannot mix the three armies of chaos in warhammer any longer

Neknoh
09-05-2008, 23:01
We are well aware of this, which is the reason we've been discussing pure daemons for the last couple of pages.


Now, in order to get BACK to tactics on Daemons, I might as well kick start a discussion, I'll be adding my views later, but now, I need to go check other stuff out:


Greater Daemons in 2000 points, yes way or no way?

Reinnon
09-05-2008, 23:08
Hi hi

I'm interested in a tzeentch themed army to make use of fateweaver as the general, mainly because i've never really used a special character before and fateweaver looks seriously fun.

Fateweaver speaks for himself, but its the rest of the army i'm having trouble with - and i want to be tzeentch heavy.

my thoughts were either the horror swarm supported by bloodletters - large blocks (or block, as horrors in large numbers get silly) throwing around some serious spell damage. Support this with heralds and fateweaver to create a truly shocking magic heavy force.

My trouble is fitting it into 2000 points, while still having some close combat ability - horrors are fragile and your looking at 500 odd points for a lvl four group.

anyone have any experience with tzeentch?

Damian
10-05-2008, 01:15
Reinnon, this could help:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=3911

and here:

http://z7.invisionfree.com/wyrmling_x/index.php?showtopic=3863

Nabeshin1106
10-05-2008, 04:42
We are well aware of this, which is the reason we've been discussing pure daemons for the last couple of pages.


Now, in order to get BACK to tactics on Daemons, I might as well kick start a discussion, I'll be adding my views later, but now, I need to go check other stuff out:


Greater Daemons in 2000 points, yes way or no way?

Yes way. My Keeper has been wreaking havoc left and right. I realize he's more than a quarter of my army, but he's well worth it.

jahorin
10-05-2008, 11:08
I'm having trouble as well, in investing a quarter of my army in a single character. I play mono Tzeentch and I can get 3 herald on in a chariot for almost the price.

I will have to try it sooner or later, but when I play another god. The lord of change is just not good enough in close combat to justify taking only him as a character in my army. I would be more incline to do so with a Kipper or a Thirster.

Dux Ducis
10-05-2008, 12:55
I feel that a Keeper or Bloodthirster are well-worth their points costs in most games - the GUO and LoC are more 'tailored' GD, only really good for specific roles.

Your Mum Rang
10-05-2008, 14:13
Hey Alex,

I know what you mean about fitting in everythign you want. Here's how I'd do it.

Kairos costs a LOT. He is uber flexible but can't fight his way out of a cage made of babies. Anyway, I'd go points denial with the army. Kairos and 2/3 flying Heralds is your HQ. These are your damage dealers who are fast enough to avoid enemy troops.

Then go min on your Horrors. 3 x 10 is perfect. Use these to make the enemy attack you. Then I like to have 20 or so Screamers around them in ambush ready to fly over anyone trying to get at them.

A unit of Flamers is also great for plonking in a wood or house and annoying the hell outta the enemy.

Lijacote
10-05-2008, 19:49
Greater Daemons in 2000 points, yes way or no way?

I tried playing without a Greater Daemon today. It's a Tzeentchian daemonic army (bite me, I like Tzeentch and magic... besides, the enemy had a 2nd gen Slann, but I digress!) and the hero level characters just couldn't get close enough to cast anything useful in time. You just can't expect to cast the Bolt of Change with 3 dice. Not to mention a str6 t6 flying monster with 5 ws6 attacks is pretty overpowering. The other Greater Daemons are also great in what they do by the looks of it. So, YAY. Big yay. VERY.

Reinnon
10-05-2008, 19:57
Thanks for the links.

In between b*tching about my railguns at a 40k tournie (why oh why can't they ever hit!?) i've been giving some thoughts to tzeentch, and decided on two lists - one involving fateweaver on mum's VP denial tactic and the other involving "how many power dice!?"

2000 Point Fateweaver Vanguard

Kairos Fateweaver
Total: 625
Herald of Tzeentch: Power Vortex, Winged Horror
Total: 165
Herald of Tzeentch: Power Vortex, Winged Horror
Total: 165
10 Horrors: Standard with Icon of Sorcery
Total: 147
10 Horrors: Standard with Icon of Sorcery
Total: 147
10 Horrors: Standard with Icon of Sorcery
Total: 147
4 Screamers
Total: 120
4 Screamers
Total: 120
5 Flamers
Total: 175
5 Flamers
Total: 175

2000 point pure tzeentch - zero close combat ability makes the army a bit fragile, but it has serious magical potential - 15 power dice standard, a potenial 21 dice with some tzeentch spells. This army however isn't really very competitive due to its zero close combat power. Also strikes me as a fluffy to use, as i could imagine fateweaver leading such an army

The next army is a more refined mix of khorne and fateweaver:

2000 Point Alliance of Blood and Change

Kairos Fateweaver
Total: 625
Herald of Tzeentch: Power Vortex, Winged Horror
Total: 165
The Blue Scribes
Total: 81
U’zhul, The Skulltaker
Total: 150
10 Horrors
Total: 120
10 Horrors
Total: 120
10 Horrors
Total: 120
6 Flesh Hounds
Total: 210
5 Flesh Hounds
Total: 175
7 Flamers
Total: 245

Yes, its based upon reading the forums linked, aims to counter the weakness of the first list with some khorne, not as much magic but more balanced. Strikes me as if tzeentch and khorne were meant to work together as they fill in the gaps of the army very nicely

and finally, an amusing horror horde army:

2000 Point Tide of Change

Herald of Tzeentch: Power Vortex, Winged Horror
Total: 165
Herald of Tzeentch: Power Vortex, Winged Horror
Total: 165
Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery, Spell Breaker
Total: 165
Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery, Winged Horror
Total: 165
31 Horrors: Standard with Icon of Sorcery
Total: 399
10 Horrors:
Total: 120
10 Horrors:
Total: 120
5 Flesh Hounds
Total: 175
5 Flesh Hounds
Total: 175
5 Flamers
Total: 175
5 Flamers
Total: 175

not sure if this will be effective, but it does have a level 3 horror unit in it for a base 17 power dice. Fun but i don't think its particularly effective.

Damian
10-05-2008, 20:14
Your second list is illegal as it only has 2 core choices

Reinnon
10-05-2008, 20:19
bulls, er...hang on

that will teach me to actually read the rules, ok fixed

Your Mum Rang
10-05-2008, 20:36
I like em. Have you thought about having 4 Heralds on Chariots?

I have a 2250 army that looks like....

*EDITED TO CORRECT TYPO*

Characters:
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot - Master of Sorcery @ 200pts
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot - Master of Sorcery @ 200pts
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot - Master of Sorcery @ 200pts
Herald of Tzeentch: Chariot - Master of Sorcery @ 200pts

Core:
10 Horrors @ 120pts
10 Horrors @ 120pts
10 Horrors @ 120pts
6 Furies @ 72pts

Special:
5 Screamers @ 150pts
5 Screamers @ 150pts
5 Screamers @ 150pts
5 Screamers @ 150pts

Rare:
6 Flamers @ 210pts
6 Flamers @ 210pts

2252pts

Go near the Flamers and face 20 S5 auto hit on anyone I can fly over >:D

Reinnon
10-05-2008, 20:43
if i can convince people at club to play 2250....

EDIT: mum, check your points value, horrors don't cost 200 points for ten

Dux Ducis
10-05-2008, 22:16
They do if you are including full command plus magical standards.

Gralph!?!
10-05-2008, 22:39
I like em. Have you thought about having 4 Heralds on Chariots?

I have a 2250 army that looks like....



Go near the Flamers and face 20 S5 auto hit on anyone I can fly over >:D

your horrors units even with command and the magic banner that gives +1 casting is still only 175pts and the flamers DO NOT auto hit, you still need to roll to hit but you do not get the -1 for multiple shots.

oh and your heralds on chariots are also over pointed as they themselves are also only 190pts with that set up.

Lijacote
10-05-2008, 23:17
flamers DO NOT auto hit, you still need to roll to hit but you do not get the -1 for multiple shots.


I'm pretty sure he was aware of that. He was most likely talking about Screamers, you know, considering Flamers don't do s5 shooting.

TheMav80
10-05-2008, 23:50
Man is it hard to fit everything I want into an army. :(

I suppose that's a good thing though, in a way. Means Daemons aren't lacking for great selections.

But I really can't figure putting a Greater Daemon as a Lord in 2000 pts. I'm no stranger to high pointed single models (points to his 2nd gen Slaan coming in over 600 pts), but I can't seem to get it to work out. Could be I am going with the wrong daemon. I wanted a GUO, but good lord is he expensive.

I was thinking of doing Nurgle/Slaanesh. Using Plaguebearers as my anvil and Daemonettes to flank. Use Nurglings to screen the Daemonettes from shooting, while a unit of Seekers with the Siren Banner chases down whoever is doing the shooting.

I'm going to be grossly outnumbered though. And with very little magic. Trying to get the GUO to be a Lvl 4 wizard is just way too expensive. I was thinking of making him level two and giving my Nurgle Herald the Banner of Sundering to boost my magic defense. But then I figured if all i am going to have is one level 2 mage and maybe another level 1...what's the point? They would almost never get anything off.

I'm probably just limiting myself too much on which daemons I take.

Gralph!?!
11-05-2008, 00:23
I'm pretty sure he was aware of that. He was most likely talking about Screamers, you know, considering Flamers don't do s5 shooting.

i really ought to think a little more before i post as i am looking like a bit of a prat.

thanks for clearing that up then.

RobG
11-05-2008, 00:25
Are you finding the chariot works better than having a disk? Do you often use the chariot in combat? I was planning on just keeping the herald out of danger using the disk to zip around and keep good positioning.

Your Mum Rang
11-05-2008, 09:21
Gotta love a typo!

Also, you are extremely wrong about Screamers. They ARE auto hits. (Oops...I see you were talking about Flamers)

Anyway, Chariots are great as they break ranks! One in each flank can be nasty with a unit to the front. You are wrong again on the points cost...

115 + 25 + 60 = 200pts

So many mistakes in one post...

I managed to fit a GD AND 2 Chariots into one army. I call them the Soul Hunters...

Characters:
Keeper of Secrets: Lvl 4 - Spirit Swallower @ 670pts
Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery - Chariot @ 200pts
Herald of Tzeentch: Master of Sorcery - Chariot @ 200pts
The Masque @ 90pts

Core:
10 Daemonettes @ 120pts
10 Daemonettes @ 120pts
10 Horrors @ 120pts
6 Furies @ 72pts
6 Furies @ 72pts

Special:
6 Seekers of Slaanesh: Siren Banner @ 181pts
6 Seekers of Slaanesh: Siren Banner @ 181pts

Rare:
2 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 110pts
2 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 110pts

2246pts

If it playtests well I will have a reason to include Belial in the army!

Belial: http://www.rackham-store.com/site/medias/BELIAL_V2_A_GD.jpg

TheMav80
11-05-2008, 17:48
This is what I think I will plan on. Hopefully I can playtest it tonight proxying with other Chaos models or something.

Lord: 655
GUO - Level 4, Trappings, Noxious Vapours, Slime Trail

Hero: 265
Herald of Nurgle - Staff of Nurgle, Icon of Despair

Hero: 190
Herald of Slaanesh - Level 1, Many Armed

Core: 205
14 Plaguebeaers - Standard of Seeping Decay

Core: 181
12 Daemonettes - Standard of Ecstasy

Core: 165
12 Daemonettes - Standard

Special: 181
6 Seekers of Slaanesh - Siren Standard

Rare: 165
3 Fiends of Slaanesh

For a total of 1996. Though I think I might make room for some Nurglings. I play WE alot and the Nurgling should help me keep his skirmishers from hiding in the woods too much. Need something to go in after those way watchers.

Emeraldw
11-05-2008, 17:53
This is what I think I will plan on. Hopefully I can playtest it tonight proxying with other Chaos models or something.

Lord: 655
GUO - Level 4, Trappings, Noxious Vapours, Slime Trail

Hero: 265
Herald of Nurgle - Staff of Nurgle, Icon of Despair

Hero: 190
Herald of Slaanesh - Level 1, Many Armed

Core: 205
14 Plaguebeaers - Standard of Seeping Decay

Core: 181
12 Daemonettes - Standard of Ecstasy

Core: 165
12 Daemonettes - Standard

Special: 181
6 Seekers of Slaanesh - Siren Standard

Rare: 165
3 Fiends of Slaanesh

For a total of 1996. Though I think I might make room for some Nurglings. I play WE alot and the Nurgling should help me keep his skirmishers from hiding in the woods too much. Need something to go in after those way watchers.

Way watchers end up in places that you can't get too with normal scouts so that might be a futile effort.

Your army is very fast, but I might steer you away from the plaugebearers if you know you fight WE's. Reason being, they will just be march blocked and avoided. No point in fighting that till the rest of your army is dead, same with the GUO.

Slaneesh units are very very vulnerable to bows, be careful with them as this army is very easily outnumbered in units, even elves can have 3 or more units than you will.

LooseMoose
11-05-2008, 18:59
I'm going to be grossly outnumbered though. And with very little magic. Trying to get the GUO to be a Lvl 4 wizard is just way too expensive. I was thinking of making him level two and giving my Nurgle Herald the Banner of Sundering to boost my magic defense. But then I figured if all i am going to have is one level 2 mage and maybe another level 1...what's the point? They would almost never get anything off.

I'm probably just limiting myself too much on which daemons I take.

You can roughly build your army as you said, if you're open to Special Characters the Bluescribes would also benefit you quite a bit. It makes a good determent to your opponent and in magic heavy games should net you a few more dice a turn. Another way to boost your magic would be to take your GuO as a level 3 and have a Herald of Tzeentch with Power Vortex for a much more points effective magic phase.

MrBigMr
11-05-2008, 22:21
God I hate this new book in terms of using my pure Slaanesh list. But like I said way before it even arrived, I'm not backing down. I've worked far too long and hard for this army to turn in into some daemon circus in favour of a couple more wins.

Daemon Prince - Lvl. 2, Winged Horror, Unnatural Swiftness = 430pts.
Herald of Slaanesh - BSB = 115pts.
Herald of Slaanesh - Mount of Slaanesh = 115pts.
Herald of Slaanesh - Chariot of Slaanesh, Lvl. 1, Torment Blade = 220pts.
5x Furies (of Slaanesh, kekeke) = 60pts.
10x Daemonettes of Slaanesh - Musician = 126pts.
13x Daemonettes of Slaanesh - Full Command = 186pts.
17x Daemonettes of Slaanesh - Full Command = 234pts.
6x Seekers of Slaanesh - Standard Bearer, Siren Standard = 181pts.
2x3 Fiends of Slaanesh = 165pts.
= 1997pts.

I so wanted to have two units of seekers, but they won't make up for the loss of power in the 'nette blocks. Mounted and BSB heralds will fill the 13 and 14 'nette blocks while the last one will be left as a mere "had to get something, but won't settle for crap" unit.

I know this list is full of crap, but it's not my fault GW decided to make it so. I won't take a GD and with the chaper Exalted gone, I have no other choice. I've worked too hard for the model to just toss it aside. I've also worked on the chariot as well, so that'll stay as long as needed. Fiends are pretty much the only unit in the list that I'm happy with. They've worked quite well as my Pleasureseekers and with more for the same price I'm expecting them to do even better.

Well, next saturday should let me know whether there is still hope in the future or if I'm to cut down on my WHFB time till the next daemon armybook.

SPYDER68
12-05-2008, 00:44
Herald of Slaanesh with the Etherblade and a battle standard in a block of 15+ nettes can handle / take out a charge from even Britonians.

Maybe try a bigger block for a higher combat resolution etc. Thers no reason why slaanesh mono cant work, may even toss in a Greater Daemon.

More first strike in your Nettes squad would be better thena chariot unless you want the model.

The furies are also imo a waste of points (just having the 6), another Fiend would do better id think.

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 06:35
Maybe try a bigger block for a higher combat resolution etc. Thers no reason why slaanesh mono cant work, may even toss in a Greater Daemon.
My prince model isn't that big to begin with and I've spend a while converting a 40mm base for her, so I don't like the idea of ripping it down. And I don't really fancy having a GD (at least in such a small games). I've had good success with the Exalted as a more of a supporting unit, causing terror and buzzing around with magicks. I've rarely tossed her into combat (maybe to flank bigger monsters), but with more wounds and no fear of puffing in a cloud of logic, I might give it a try.


More first strike in your Nettes squad would be better thena chariot unless you want the model.
I really, really, really want to have it, at least in bigger games. Since daemons don't have their own chariots and I had to work on that one for a good while, especially as I'm quite proud of the model, it's a real shame to let it gather dust on the shelf.


The furies are also imo a waste of points (just having the 6), another Fiend would do better id think.
I was going to use them with the Prince. They get her Ld. and can screen her from enemy fire. And having more S4 attacks can't be bad. They are the first unit I planned to axe, but I get so little from them to get anything fancy. I could exchange them for more 'nettes, but nothing else much. I can always get them back for bigger games.


But I'll have to see after next weekend, when I get to air them out.

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 10:31
Ok, I did some modifications to my list after having another go at the book.

Moved some 'nettes around and now I got a 17 'nettes with a BSB (total of 18 models in 6x3 block), which I've fielded before, though with the Unholy Icon and its 4+ save for them all (once had the standard bearer fight for 3 round straight all alone against cold one riders and a block of sauruses and even managed to drop the lizards down to hald strength before finally biting the dust).

The 13 'nette block will house the mounted herald (a fluff choice, so can't do much about it) so all in all it's a 15 US block. The 10 block is now something to be sacrificed to slow the enemy if needed and give flanking units a chance to circle around. Dropped the musician from the Seeker unit in favour of a Torment Blade for the chariot. If I use it against something big, there's a chance that it'll live longer as the enemy won't get to hit back.

Chris_Tzeentch
12-05-2008, 12:35
I am adding a small Tzeentch contingent to my Nurgle army for tonights game - I am playing Khornate Deamon Legion. I intend to set up deep into my deployment zone, which will force the Khorne player to move forward. I will blast him with all my lovely Nurgle spells, plus I am taking a Tzeentch herald on Disc with Master of Sorcery and the flamer shooting ability. I got 10 horrors just for the extra blast ability, and to use up another core choice (I had used 10 Plaguebearers on their own in the previous game, but they weren't very successful). Once I have thinned out their numbers a bit, I intend hitting them with a really nasty unit of Plaguebearers containing a Herald on Palanquin and Epidemius. I need to have caused some casualties from Nurgle magic in order to make use of the Tally ability. I have also taken a unit of 6 flamers, which gives me a total of 7D6 Str 4 attacks on some poor unit.

I have decided to run my GUO with two beasts of Nurgle, and I will position them together so its unlikely that you can charge one without hitting the others.

I will report on how I do later.

SPYDER68
12-05-2008, 18:46
My prince model isn't that big to begin with and I've spend a while converting a 40mm base for her, so I don't like the idea of ripping it down. And I don't really fancy having a GD (at least in such a small games). I've had good success with the Exalted as a more of a supporting unit, causing terror and buzzing around with magicks. I've rarely tossed her into combat (maybe to flank bigger monsters), but with more wounds and no fear of puffing in a cloud of logic, I might give it a try.


I really, really, really want to have it, at least in bigger games. Since daemons don't have their own chariots and I had to work on that one for a good while, especially as I'm quite proud of the model, it's a real shame to let it gather dust on the shelf.


I was going to use them with the Prince. They get her Ld. and can screen her from enemy fire. And having more S4 attacks can't be bad. They are the first unit I planned to axe, but I get so little from them to get anything fancy. I could exchange them for more 'nettes, but nothing else much. I can always get them back for bigger games.


But I'll have to see after next weekend, when I get to air them out.


The daemon Prince only causes fear :( the only ones that cause terror now is the Greater Daemons.

isidril93
12-05-2008, 18:54
oh come on...let him use the daemon prince
i like the daemon princes and i think they have some thing which greater daemon do not have which come in usefull like the fact that they are not large targets, they are much cheaper, they can take non daemonic lores, some amazing models (like be'lakor) and actually make more sence fluffwise since they will probably have more of a story than a greater daemon

MrBigMr
12-05-2008, 19:15
The daemon Prince only causes fear :( the only ones that cause terror now is the Greater Daemons.
*rereads the book, drops to his knees and bellows at the sky*
MENDOZA!!!
...
Bring me my gun... It's open season on developer ass...


oh come on...let him use the daemon prince
i like the daemon princes and i think they have some thing which greater daemon do not have which come in usefull like the fact that they are not large targets, they are much cheaper, they can take non daemonic lores, some amazing models (like be'lakor) and actually make more sence fluffwise since they will probably have more of a story than a greater daemon
Well, these are good points that put emphasis on my reason for a Prince:
-1. The model (http://www.labyrinth-productions.com/Pics/daems4.jpg). It's on a 25mm base in the pic and a daemonette reaches it up to the arm pit. Not very GD. I have her on a custom 40mm base pydamid made from a GW 40mm base and Rackham 38mm base. Looks nice, like a trophy really.
-2. Wings. Gots to have wings. Even more so with the current fluff for the wings that happens to go 100% with the fluff of my legion.
-3. The fluff. My army is loosely based on a web comic and the main character happens to be an average young woman turned demon by accidental use of magic. She has wings that come out of her back, just like it states in the DoC book under the wings. And she has white skin with black stripes and purple hair. Nor to mention a golden nipple ring. What can be more Slaanesh than that?
-4. KoS has no wings, nor do heralds (apart from Tzeentch, and that's a pencil pushing geek that'll get his **** kicked in CC).
-5. Pure Slaanesh. Undivided will do as well, but as pure as it can be. No "well, if I just" here. All or nothing, dammit! My 40K legion will be exploiting GWs new twist on Chaos like a man hellbat out of the Warp.
-6. Fire. Fire good. Fire fluffy. You! Fire! *someone spontaneously combusts*


At the moment I'm pondering on switching the Furies for the "pick a lore" banner and some more torment blades. But the question at the moment is, does a "lore" mean any magic list or just the 8 big ones, and whether or not torment blade grants an extra attack or not.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-05-2008, 21:36
aAmost everyone is playing it that you name one of the Magical Lists from the other Armies in Warhammer - as though they are called different specific names "Dark Magic" - or "Skaven Magic" or "Gut Magic" they are still "LORES" of Magic, strictly speaking.

Many ARE still actually called LORES, like "The Lore of Athel Loren" or "The Lore of Vampires" so there would/should be no debate on those, in any case.

References/proof for the idea that all spell lists are, effectively, "Lores of Magic", even if they don't include the word "Lore" in their title is found on page 111 of the main rulebook.

Some specific points:

Wizards usually know only one magical lore.

The Warhammer Army books describe exactly which kinds of lore are used by the different Warhammer races...

Players must declare which Lore of Magic each of their Wizards is using before generating any spells.


----------

Clearly if you declare you are using High Magic...you are declaring which "Lore" you are using for that Wizard, even though the word "Lore" doesn't specifically show up in the name "High Magic". If it were otherwise, you would not be able to comply with the "declaration" part mentioned above from page 111.

Indeed...common sense and general play has always been that when you are declaring your "Lore" for the game, it's a Lore regardless of it being called Gut Magic, as opposed to "The Lore of Vampires" - etc.


Apparently GW is planning on FAQing this to be 100% clear anyways, in a while (a few months, at the longest).

Icarus
12-05-2008, 21:59
In the interest of injecting some Khorne-love into this thread, here's what I'm playing around with for a 2000 point army (based on the models I have right now).

Herald – Juggernaught – Obsidian Armour – 200
Herald – Juggernaught – Armour of Khorne – Firestorm Blade – 190

15 Bloodletters – Full Command – Skull Totem – 235
15 Bloodletters – Full Command – Skull Totem – 235
10 Bloodletters – Full Command – Skull Totem - 175
5 Furies - 60
5 Furies - 60

5 Flesh Hounds – 175
Karanak - 75

3 Bloodcrushers – Full Command – Icon of Rage – 285
3 Bloodcrushers – Full Command – Icon of Rage – 285

I have toyed with idea of putting in a Bloodthirster, but rejected on that grounds that
a) it would be rather unfair against a couple of my friend's armies who would have little or no way to deal with it.
b) it would severely deplete my numbers in an already elite army. Greater daemons best saved for 2500 and up i reckon!

Chris_Tzeentch
12-05-2008, 23:38
Well, I played against the Khorne deamons and chalked up another victory. It was quite a game!

My main unit got charged in the flank by a bloodthirster and a unit of flesh hounds and beat them senseless, killing them both. I put Miasma of Pestilence on the Bloodthirster which really ruined his day.

The flamers were ok, but got charged by the Bloodthirster in the second turn, although by then they had destroyed three bloodcrushers.

The Horror unit was dissappointing. I will probably drop these. They couldn't get the basic spell off at all, and eventually got charged and destroyed by bloodletters.

I used a Tzeentch Herald riding a disc of Tzeentch with master of sorcery and the flamer ability. I must admit I was impressed. The extra magic dice came in handy, and bolt of change was very useful.

My magic was rather stifled by the annoying Khorne banner that reduces your casting dice by -2. This meant I couldnt get the Tally started till rather late in the game.

Highlight of the game was when the GUO and my silly unit of Plaguebearers, Epidemius and a Herald on Palanquin charged Skulltaker and his Bloodletter bodyguard. The unit had already been damaged by Tzeentch magic and Plaguewind, and then got charged by these boys, plus two stands of Nurglings in the flank, and the Tzeentch herald in the rear. The GUO was challenged by Skulltaker. The GUO caused a wound, and Skulltaker did nothing. The other Nurgle stuff caused immense damage from poison. After working out combat resolution, I managed to beat him by 30! Never before have I achieved such a high combat resolution!

After that, my opponent conceded.

I got the Undead next week!

lokigod
13-05-2008, 04:16
got love nurgle in the new book :)

SPYDER68
13-05-2008, 16:13
Well, I played against the Khorne deamons and chalked up another victory. It was quite a game!

My main unit got charged in the flank by a bloodthirster and a unit of flesh hounds and beat them senseless, killing them both. I put Miasma of Pestilence on the Bloodthirster which really ruined his day.

The flamers were ok, but got charged by the Bloodthirster in the second turn, although by then they had destroyed three bloodcrushers.

The Horror unit was dissappointing. I will probably drop these. They couldn't get the basic spell off at all, and eventually got charged and destroyed by bloodletters.

I used a Tzeentch Herald riding a disc of Tzeentch with master of sorcery and the flamer ability. I must admit I was impressed. The extra magic dice came in handy, and bolt of change was very useful.

My magic was rather stifled by the annoying Khorne banner that reduces your casting dice by -2. This meant I couldnt get the Tally started till rather late in the game.

Highlight of the game was when the GUO and my silly unit of Plaguebearers, Epidemius and a Herald on Palanquin charged Skulltaker and his Bloodletter bodyguard. The unit had already been damaged by Tzeentch magic and Plaguewind, and then got charged by these boys, plus two stands of Nurglings in the flank, and the Tzeentch herald in the rear. The GUO was challenged by Skulltaker. The GUO caused a wound, and Skulltaker did nothing. The other Nurgle stuff caused immense damage from poison. After working out combat resolution, I managed to beat him by 30! Never before have I achieved such a high combat resolution!

After that, my opponent conceded.

I got the Undead next week!

With all the tzeenth how many nurgle units did you have ?

And just making sure only wounds caused bye nurgle effect the nurgle counter for poisin wounding on a 4+.

SPYDER68
13-05-2008, 16:14
oh come on...let him use the daemon prince
i like the daemon princes and i think they have some thing which greater daemon do not have which come in usefull like the fact that they are not large targets, they are much cheaper, they can take non daemonic lores, some amazing models (like be'lakor) and actually make more sence fluffwise since they will probably have more of a story than a greater daemon

I like the daemon princes :P I was just pointing out if he is just using it for terror, it wont work.. since he doesnt cause terror.

MrBigMr
13-05-2008, 16:39
I like the daemon princes :P I was just pointing out if he is just using it for terror, it wont work.. since he doesnt cause terror.
Used her for terror. I haven't had any time to use her in the new book.

Chris_Tzeentch
13-05-2008, 16:58
With all the tzeenth how many nurgle units did you have ?

And just making sure only wounds caused bye nurgle effect the nurgle counter for poisin wounding on a 4+.

Well aware of the Nurgle wounds only counting towards the Tally.

In fact, because he was countering my Nurgle magic so well in the early game turns, I was getting a little concerned.

This is my army list :-

1 Great Unclean One
1 Level 4 Wizard
1 Noxious Vapours
1 Nurgle's Rot
1 Trappings of Nurgle

1 Epidemius

1 Herald of Tzeentch
1 Disk of Tzeentch
1 Flames of Tzeentch
1 Master of Sorcery


1 Herald of Nurgle
1 Level 1 Wizard
1 Palanquin
1 Noxious Vapours
1 Slime Trail
1 Army Standard
1 Banner of Unholy Victory

16 Plaguebearers
1 Plagueridden
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence

10 Horrors of Tzeentch

10 Plaguebearers
1 Plagueridden
1 Standard Bearer
1 Icon of Eternal Virulence

2 Beasts of Nurgle

6 Flamers of Tzeentch

It comes to 2255 in total (five points over - bad Chris!)

Ludwig von Rictoven
13-05-2008, 18:06
The list I used last night was

Blue Scribes
Herald of Tzeentch - Master of sorcery
Herald of Tzeentch - Master of sorcery
Herald Of Nurgle - Staff of Nurgle, BSB, Std of Sundering

15 Horrors
15 Horrors
20 Plaugebearers - musician, standard, Std of seeping decay

5 Flesh hounds
5 Flesh hounds

5 Flamers
5 Flamers

I was playing against dwarfs, and the horrors did nothing of interest. The flamers killed more in combat than they did in from shooting! The flesh hounds got more then their points back, and the blue scribes kicked ass with a timely drain life.

The best item in the list has to be the Staff of nurgle in a unit with the banner of seeping decay - for 25pts to reroll failed wounds it was absolutely awesome!

Chris_Tzeentch
13-05-2008, 18:09
I found the staff of nurgle a little too easy to dispel. I had two of them in my list and only caused about 6 casualties with them in 6 turns.

Chris_Tzeentch
13-05-2008, 19:27
That is far too character heavy for my tastes. I've been running 2 Heralds and a ******** of troops. This seems far too little even for Daemons.

What is lacks in quantity it more than makes up for in sheer resilience and quality.

Your Mum Rang
13-05-2008, 19:40
I guess I like having more options troopwise.

Though PB's in large units with a Herald are golden.

Ludwig von Rictoven
13-05-2008, 22:26
I found the staff of nurgle a little too easy to dispel. I had two of them in my list and only caused about 6 casualties with them in 6 turns.

Unlucky but true it is easy to dispel as are most bound items - during the game i think I got about 18-19 dwarf warriors (10 in one turn! yes thats right they failed a toughness test!)

What I normally do with any bound items in any of my armies is not use them in the first and maybe second turns just for that extra surprise.

But when I was casting

Boon of tzeentch
Boon of tzeentch
Flickering fire
Flickering fire
extra spell (depending on boon)
extra spell (depending on boon)
Flickering fire
Flickering fire
Scribes
Staff of nurgle

He had 6 dispel dice & as more bothered about dispelling boon

So I got away with it

Znail
14-05-2008, 03:08
A quick question. I want to be sure that wounds from Iridescent Corona affects combat resolution. Its during combat, but before normal blows, so it should be part of the combat resolution.

Dux Ducis
14-05-2008, 11:15
A quick question. I want to be sure that wounds from Iridescent Corona affects combat resolution. Its during combat, but before normal blows, so it should be part of the combat resolution.

Can't see why not.

LooseMoose
14-05-2008, 12:59
A quick question. I want to be sure that wounds from Iridescent Corona affects combat resolution. Its during combat, but before normal blows, so it should be part of the combat resolution.

It'll work like Chariot Impact Hits do to combat, so yes it does.

Znail
14-05-2008, 15:29
Pretty good on a Tzeentch herald on a chariot then, for extra 'impact hits'. Not very high strenght on either hits thou so I guess its mostly good against low armored units.

Firebreather
14-05-2008, 19:53
Even still, Znail, it's not half bad! I hadn't thought about Corona in that potential use before. Not that it's a massively powerful game-winner or anything, but it's a nice little tool. Consider it duly noted and thrown into the bag of tricks for later use;)

Your Mum Rang
14-05-2008, 20:28
I rate Tzeentch Heralds in chariots a fair bit. Mainly because of the awesome Glean Magic and that they are a flying, rank cancelling chariot for less than 200pts.

isidril93
14-05-2008, 20:41
corona is ok...good aginst weak low strength units

Firebreather
14-05-2008, 20:45
Indeed, I'm currently loving the Tzeentch Heralds, in at least a couple of the forms they've been mentioned in here. I hadn't considered using Corona all that much until the thought of combining it with a chariot came up. Chalk another one up for Tzeentch. It's certainly yet another push for my to finally convert up a suitably impressive Herald of Tzeentch riding a Burning Chariot.