PDA

View Full Version : Need a New Fantasy Army



Captain Jeffrey
07-04-2008, 05:29
Hey, I haven't posted much about Fantasy, but the group I am in plays it on occasion and at some point I would like to collect another army.

I have Dark Elves, but I want to get rid of them to someone. Why-

1) IMO, they are *seriously* under-powered. Imperial Soldiers fight better and cost less. High Elves cost a point more and resoundingly kick their butts. Though I have never *faced* High Elves, the "paper" pre-judgement (as well as watching some games with them) seem resoundingly in the High favor. Though the guy that play HE's is a bit of a butterfingers, I would only win on probably serious luck and mental out-foxing.

Essentially, I have noticed that I cost almost as much as a High Elf, yet, despite far older and far more experienced in terms of background (many Dark Elves left over from Ulthuan's civil war,) don't strike first, don't fight as well, and don't have a great-use-general-purpose unit (such as Swordmasters, which are GOD for 15 points.) I do have "Hatred", but I haven't ran into that. I think it would do little to help. Though I do get the 2+ Ward Save Witch King Malekith on a Black Dragon, but seriously, a 950 point model isn't showing up any time soon in any of my games.

Maybe I should hold out and pray for a Dark Elf book. Though for some sick reason I think GW's going to ignore that, despite revising the High Elf army book like five times in the last two years, every version better than the previous. I wonder if High Elves are now 40K's Chaos/Space Marines- whose rules are *deliberately* tilted to favor such players because GW's designers have a fluff and rules fixation with Space Marines and that it deliberately wants humanity to win the galaxy-wide war, and that Chaos is just "cool" (and that they are also Space Marines.)

(To prove that point, one more hardcore gamer explains that better- Google "Codex Not Marines" and read the article. Not only is it hilarious, but it has MANY good points in it.) ("This is no surprise, as, obtained from GW, 50% of GW's sales are Space Marines. Another 10% to 20% are, guess what? Their evil twins!" :D ) "The Tactical Squad plastic box set is by far the #1 seller."

Anyway-

I don't play armies in 40K or Fantasy for their rules, but I get frustrated when it seems as if GW "doesn't care" about some army players, and that no revisions are in sight.

That, and that many of the Dark Elf models designed by Chris Fitzpatrick (who no longer works for GW to my knowledge) are absolutely terrible. I commented last year, harshly, that some of his models "looked as if he sculped them with his X-acto between his buttcheeks."

2) EXPENSIVE MODELS-

I'm dead serious. And I don't just mean points. I mean money. Dark Elves will kill your pocketbook- FAST. Everything bar obscenely priced $50 Cold Ones and plastic Dark Elf Warriors (the only good deal), to my knowledge, are *ALL* metal. 10 Corsairs ran me like $50-60.

There have been "price war"/"unfair prices" threads all over in the past, but, I need to be serious- GW needs to seriously start making some cheaper, plastic models for Dark Elves. Dark Riders are $10 American a model, and I *refuse* to pay that. I picked up the Wood Elf box and converted them with green stuff and ingenious crossbow bits left over from the regular box, which is a steal for that many guys for that price.

Though I'd rather see someone at the company actually care and power-up the DE's and put out some actual, decent models. Get that guy that designed High Elf models (Jes Goodwin and some other man who makes good minis, and I can't think of the name off the top of my head, but his name sounds Spanish/South/Central American.)

3) GW will never be able to live down Adam Troke's High Elf army book. Where the opinion is essentially the joke line of, "I wrote this army book after listening to the thoughts that one guy told me that elves should have."

Always strike first? Yeah. Right. Okay. That eliminates out-maneuvering and tactics. Final Fantasy battles (as comparison, I haven't played anything past 9) aren't challenging at all if you Gameshark and put in the code that you always get "PRE-EMPTIVE!" or "FIRST STRIKE!!!" every single random encounter.

It's that simple. I rarely play Fantasy, but enjoy it when I do. And the mass opinion by anyone I discuss it with is an extremely negative opinion about the High Elves. The opinion of the guy who also plays High Elves at the club (who has a tendency to cheat in both 40K and Fantasy, and he uses very meta-gamed lists) is also extremely negative.

4) Is it okay to use "Ravening Hordes"?

I still have those rules (well written- all by Rick Priestly and a few feedbacks) and they're nice. They're great "generic" lists. They'd be good to "use what you want to field" (which is the recommended spirit of the game) rather than "what the tabletop effectiveness is". It's good to give things a shot with proxies in a casual friendly before you blow $30 on the Army Book.

To me, they seem perfectly fine to use. Tournament style rules and rules-lawyering is reserved for one thing- tournament games (where the second will kill your sportsmanship even if you are right.)

RH are highly "genericized" and "simplified" rules. Sure, a few point costs might change (1 or 2 points cheaper or more expensive), but it avoids Wood Elf Skirmisher Madness (little challenge to play), High Elf Madness, Empire Gunpowdery Goodness, for example, and avoids Herohammer, but, all in all, if you use Ravening Hordes other than a race's Army Book, I think, as a whole, you're playing with a hand tied behind your back.

If your opponent does the same, you can probably have some great games. The troop choices are simple, and the wargear choices are really limited. (If I get The Heart of Woe, though, I'll stick with Dark Elves- only for the deliberately suicidal Assassin!)

5) New Army. Tired of Dark Elves. And they were an impulsive buy and recommended by three other players. That and the rulebook hasn't been revised.

What do *you* recommend?

Personally I am leaning towards-

1) The Empire (I wanted to do this but someone else had them. He no longer shows much/if at all) and the models are awesome.

Also- just being called "THE Empire" is clearly #1. If you have "THE Empire" as your army name, you are clearly the Undisputed Superpower of the Old World. Sure, you might lose games (Empire seems to be a great, balanced list), but if you do, you can just say- "There are hundreds of thousands of more Imperial Soldiers."

2) Demon Host-

Want this purely just to try something new. And that I need 40 models to play a 2000 point game- something I would majorly lean to since that's not a lot of money at all (my estimate is less than $250) or painting time invested (if I painted 200 Tyranids in a month, I could to 40 demons.)

I hear word is no Beastman/Chaos Warrior mix like you could do. Though things aren't set in stone until they're set in stone. That, and exceptions can be made for friendlies. After all, a rule for Warhammer and 40K truly is that you may alter any of the rules that you wish if you and your friend/opponent know each other and you both agree to (Andy Chambers, brilliant developer that he was, says this directly at the back of 3rd Ed's 40K rulebook in Ultimate Secrets!!- "We reserve the right to alter these rules-- and so should you!!")

This is how gentlemanly (or lady-like, if you are the opposite in gonads) agreements in games are made, how you make *real* friends, and how you learn that this is only a children's-level board game that is played by crazy adults like us.

Warseer/Portent has had good rumors, but you have been wrong in the past (3rd Ed. Eldar Codex had some major revisions.) I put little stock in them in any case until it actually happens.

As well as the "Trial Assault Rules" for 40K, which were ludicrous and ended up almost nothing like 4th Ed's hand to hand combat rules. Maybe I should PM Icedcrow sometime (this is also a joke, BTW, though the quote *is* real,) who commented four to five years ago on Portent- "These are what these rules will be, so you might as well just get used to them." and just say- "Wow, you were totally wrong on that one, weren't you?"

It was a topic where I brought up some absolute absurdities in them, mostly the fact that over-running was impossible, that crossfire got eliminated, and that every single unit in the game got ATSKNF for free at close quarters- if caught, they just turned around to fight you again.

They finally found a very good happy medium- the Initiative roll. I enjoyed the 2D6 pursuit/flee/wipeout from 3rd Ed., but 4th's are do-able.

You also couldn't charge, for some reason, if you shot in the shooting phase. Anyway-

But I'm sure nobody would begrudge my wish to use *one* unit of Chaos Warriors as a Rare or Special choice. And by Chaos Warriors I mean Chaos Warriors. Not Chosen (aka Pimped Out Death Machines.)

Second- A Greater Demon. I don't care about game effect (though you get a machine for 400 points or so), but am leaning towards Khorne. I'd like to get ahold of the Trish Morrison version of the Bloodthirster and go nuts on that one.

Sure, it's not like 4th Ed. Warhammer where I could face away from your army, fly high in turn 1, and then land on top of your units in the second turn, killing you instantly in a first-strike with over 20 Attacks (IIRC Frenzy used to *double* your Attacks- it did in 2nd Ed. 40K), but the 20" move is still simple and extremely nasty. That and if a Greater Demon hits your line, you are probably SCREWED, unless you have something in your sleeve.

Third-

What demons? Leaning towards Khorne for the fun factor or Nurgle simply so I can use units with T-4 (tired of fragile Elves) and also the fun of painting sickly browns and green colors.

I don't know what the new models look like, but the plastics, from what I *heard*, seem as hommages back to the pewter Chaos Demons from 4th Ed. Fantasy before the ones meant for both 40K and Fantasy came out.

I do enjoy the old Bloodletter models. And painting them would be extremely easy- just use watered down Scab Red for a flesh wash. Easy!

3) Other armies-

Dunno. What do you recommend? Skaven is off the table (far too much expenditure in money and time to paint that I am willing to invest), Chaos Dwarves are... hmm, too "ancient"/"unofficial" (does GW even sell them anymore?), Dwarves are too fat, Dark Elves are far too weak rules-wise, Beastmen are far too ugly, and Wood Elves are too commonly played/frequently skirmish/trees cheapness loaded.

I *may* consider High Elves (the models are flippin fantastic), though I would use the OLDER rulebook (not the one written by Adam Troke) as a gentlemanly agreement to people playing me and also as a political-GW-game statement that I think the High Elf current rules are absolute poo and that a seven year old could write something better.

Then again, maybe not. Because kids cry when they lose.

What about Orcs? Might be good for a laugh (Fanatics seem like randomly hilarious, especially if they crack the kneecaps of a Giant or murder a Dragon). Would I get brownie points for using Hick Orcs (aka Savages?)

"I get a ward save because I prefer to paint my face with blue paint and pray to a pagan god daily. Yep. It works." (translated)

I must say I do enjoy the "puzzled"/"scratching the head"/"DURRR..." poses. Though expensive, it'd be funny.

So, all in all, my top pics for serious consideration are-

Demon Host, The Empire (slangly called "The Umpire" by me at times), Orcs and Goblins, and High Elves (under older rules), though High Elves are monetarily also expensive (lots of metal.)

Anyway, that's all I got. Thanks for checking out and seeing a newbie-Fantasy player's viewpoint and questions/comments, mostly through observations/watching games (though I have serious WH40K experience- 11+ years, I have very, very little Fantasy.)

-Jeff

JayMack
07-04-2008, 05:52
You shouldn't have long to wait on the Dark Elves revised codex, their book is due out next. Early summer methinks (August?)

adreal
07-04-2008, 08:21
Wow somee's the fitzpatrick sculpts, they are seriously better then the crap high elves got for 6th (except for phoenix guard).


Anyways, Dark elves got a revision in 6th edition (you know, from when their book was relased) which made them slightly better then the high elves of 6th edition (which were mainly the fun fun cav seer council), so they went from utter drek to passible while high elves, played anything other then cav, remainded utter drek.

High elves are GW fantasy love child, in 5th ed atleast (that was a sick book), in 6th though they were treated like the ugly step child (although less ugly then the DE untill the DE got a revision) so for you to say the GW doesn't care about DE, it's just very wrong.

I'm not going to touch your rant on princes, as that's pretyt much dead on, DE are expensive, but alot of people think how they look is worth the money.....you don't so meh.

I'm not adam troke, so I ca'nt say why he gave high elves what he gave them, but I can only assaume it was to make high elf infantry more attractive, seriously, the high elf lists of 6th ed featured tones of silver helms, backed up by mages and RBT's or eagles. you might have a problem with the rules, and untill DE get a 7th ed book, the gameas will be very much in the high elves favour, but in 6th ed all high elves had was immune to panic and guess who the general is today rules, that's it.

][nquist0r
07-04-2008, 08:30
I dunno, why dont you use your dark elves using the High Elves rules. They have escaped from the witch king by a upstart who preaches reconsiliation... LOL

mrtn
07-04-2008, 22:51
As JayMack says, the dark elves are the next army after daemons to get a new armybook, so if you already spent the time and money to collect an army this seems like a good time to not sell your army. Just wait some month and see what the new AB is like. :)

Captain Jeffrey
08-04-2008, 06:22
Oh, wow.

The Dark Elf book is supposed to come sometime this summer?

I didn't know that. (I don't keep up with Warhammer or 40K's rumors until they hit the shelf.) Since I play this mostly for fun, and am into it, I'm not "IN" to it. As in I don't get hyped up about new releases and post all over Warseer about rumors/rules/interesting "what could be"s. There are many here that are (there's nothing wrong with that, though- it just means I'm not as enthusiastic about new releases as most are.)

Must be my personality. None of you probably care, but I'm the kind of person that usually gets things much later after they come out and lose their glitter. Must be because I'm stingy. You know, I, like, get video game systems 2 or 3 years after they've hit the market and are less than half their original release price. Things like that. (Only with GW that trend isn't that true.)

Okay, I'll hold on to my Dark Elves for the time being and then see if I like their new mods.

In actuality, I have whatever their previous army book was, and have been using the "free PDF" FAQ from their website. For instance, my book is filled with incorrect listings, many incorrect point costs (almost everything more expensive than what it should be) and as one example, it says that my Executioners have Light Armor.

(Gav Thorpe- "Executioners actually have Heavy Armor. It's a misprint. Seriously, just look at the models!!")

I have actually played several games without that FAQ and the comments I get from the club boys are "you are playing with a hand behind your back."

All right. Didn't know that their book was due out next after Demons. Two armies I'm interested in (one I already have.) So, okay, I'll take all your advice and wait it out.