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View Full Version : Is it me or are humans not fit for the galaxy?->40k Background



take19
07-04-2008, 12:52
Hey guys,

I was thinking about this last night.. and to me it seems that humans are just not physically/mentally up to scratch for conlonising space. Think about it:

They're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space.

They're not as good as tyranids, as some tyranid organisms can withstand the 'harshness of the void' whereas humans instantly die.

They're not as good as orks, as orks can stand freezing cold temperatures.. and humans need to protect themselves.

They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.

They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them.

They're as good as dark eldar, as they aren't feared as much by other races.

They're not as good as necrons... well... i'd say it's kind of evident seeing as necrons almost never die.

Some points aren't as strong as others, i'll admit but even still, humans appear to be the lesser of all the races when it comes to bettering themselves in the 40K universe. What do you think?

onlainari
07-04-2008, 12:57
Humans makes lots of babies.

take19
07-04-2008, 13:01
So do hive queens lol?

Partisan Rimmo
07-04-2008, 13:12
I'm not entirely certain where to start on this, so I'll take the easy option.

Humans have the Emperor for one thing. They built the Imperium, the most stable empire in the galaxy. And human technology at its peak is near perfect. Eldar grav tanks for all their whizzing about still fear the human plasma gun. Human technology is like the AK47. It may not be tremendously hi tech, but its simply so well designed that it still does the job admirably.

=][= Lord
07-04-2008, 14:25
Myself and several million Imperial Guardsmen respectfully disagree here's why:
1. Because humans have so many psychers they will be naturally more vulnerable to the warp, but chaos practically relies on them to be a threat, as most of their servants are humans.
2. Human ingenuity has created machines so that we don't have to survive the void of space, and the use of other machines makes u for physical deficiencies.
3. Same as above, as well as humans tend to have more cunning then the orks, and tend to be more altruistic.
4. Human technology does advance, just at a very slow rate which when the tech is working fine is perfectly acceptable. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
5. besides being able to out-reproduce the eldar, humans sometimes use alien technology (i.e. c'tan phase blades used by Calladius assassins.)
6. agreed
7. Humans could kick a necron's ass in a foot race though (at least if the proposed changes go through)

Theola
07-04-2008, 14:37
Hmm... I thought part of the whole point of the setting was that humanity was slowly losing. Humanity has expanded probably as far as they will ever go, and with stagnating technology in the face of so many threats, it's now at the point where the Imperium is starting to shrink back on itself.

So, maybe during the Dark Age of Technology humans were more adapted to space, and the only reason humans haven't fallen off entirely by now is because they're living off of the borrowed conquests and technology of a different age.

Short answer, maybe humanity was once much more adapted for the galaxy, but not so much anymore.

take19
07-04-2008, 15:18
[= Lord;2503433']Myself and several million Imperial Guardsmen respectfully disagree here's why:
1. Because humans have so many psychers they will be naturally more vulnerable to the warp, but chaos practically relies on them to be a threat, as most of their servants are humans.
2. Human ingenuity has created machines so that we don't have to survive the void of space, and the use of other machines makes u for physical deficiencies.
3. Same as above, as well as humans tend to have more cunning then the orks, and tend to be more altruistic.
4. Human technology does advance, just at a very slow rate which when the tech is working fine is perfectly acceptable. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
5. besides being able to out-reproduce the eldar, humans sometimes use alien technology (i.e. c'tan phase blades used by Calladius assassins.)
6. agreed
7. Humans could kick a necron's ass in a foot race though (at least if the proposed changes go through)


Sorry,

*Not as good as dark eldar

Typo,

Good point about the phase blades.
I disagree with your 4th point strongly though. If you compared a Leman Russ to a Hammerhead.
A hammerheads main weapon has 50% more distance and is generally better in every way, concerning a tank fight.
The only thing the Leman russ has over it is better frontal armour. Which the Hammerhead will still penetrate on a 4+.
Wouldn't that be a big enough incentive for the Imperium to produce better weaponry?

I even recall it saying in the old tau codex:
"Their main weapons punched through our tanks like our armour was paper" Or something very similiar.

Lord Damocles
07-04-2008, 15:33
Look at it this way perhaps:

If hamans weren't fit for the galaxy, would they have
1. Colonised so much of it during the Golden Age?
2. Re-colonised so much of it during the Great Crusade?
3. Been the only race other than the Eldar (as far as I'm aware) to move any apprechiable (sp?) distance around the galaxy during the Age of Strife?
4. Still be around in M.42?

igenstilch
07-04-2008, 15:33
Humans aren’t really fit for living in the arctic, but we have Eskimos. why? Because humans are stubborn and determined to succeed, despite the crappy conditions. Seriously, why the $%^& would you chose to live where the average temp is -10 degrees? Because we can, and we hate being told we can’t. So we will do it just to prove them wrong.

Reminds me of when my carnifex was a turn away from assaulting a guard squad that had only 3 models left (one was his HQ I think). My opponent looked at the scene then turned to me. “I know you’re going to win that fight, but I’m going to ram that plasma pistol down his throat before it’s over.” Sure enough, I took a wound from shooting and 2 from the combat (my dice hate me).

Adra
07-04-2008, 15:58
we are not exceptional in most areas but humanity is good in alot of areas. we breed faster than alot of races, and although we are phisicaly weak we can adapt well to most environments, and thouse we cant we use technology to deal with.

our tech isnt amazing but we make up for it with scale of production. the russ may not be that great but we can roll out so many of them its a moot point.

our biggest strength is our desire to expand and our drive to dominate all else. we spread across the galaxy like a plague, but unlike the orks its a plague with direction and purpose. we adapt and plan and bend things to our will, or let them break. the imperium is a great beast and although the tiny flies may bleed it dry eventually does not stop it being a force of unimaginable power.

take19
07-04-2008, 16:01
Well, my point is where some very, very determined humans may live in extreme locations, they aren't actually suited to them. In other words if they got caught outside without protection in the artic they would freeze, an ork wouldn't.

doomscape
07-04-2008, 16:15
Orks for the win, as per the usual ;)

biggreengribbly
07-04-2008, 16:21
Hey guys,

I was thinking about this last night.. and to me it seems that humans are just not physically/mentally up to scratch for conlonising space. Think about it:

They're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space.

They're not as good as tyranids, as some tyranid organisms can withstand the 'harshness of the void' whereas humans instantly die.

They're not as good as orks, as orks can stand freezing cold temperatures.. and humans need to protect themselves.

They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.

They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them.

They're as good as dark eldar, as they aren't feared as much by other races.

They're not as good as necrons... well... i'd say it's kind of evident seeing as necrons almost never die.

Some points aren't as strong as others, i'll admit but even still, humans appear to be the lesser of all the races when it comes to bettering themselves in the 40K universe. What do you think?

Okay,

1: who says worshippers of Chaos are Sane? Relatively speaking, the simple act of being a Chaos worshipper automatically bars you from the 'sanity club' in my book.

2: Granted, but there's no real Need to get out there in deep space most of the time, and when they do need to, humans have enough doohickeys to compensate for their weakness. And if you're thinking of what happens when... say a hole gets blown in your ship, what good is a Tyranid's ability to survive in a vacuum while they just float around in the endless void of space unable to contact anyone who cares, or acheive anything?

3: So what? Central heating and thermal underwear aren't just for show you know :p And don't forget, the conditions a human requires to reproduce in are a Lot more varied than the Mushroom men.

4: okay, misguided, but you still made my day for noting they Don't make technological advancements, rather than the common misconception that they Can't.

The thing about the Ad-mech is, they believe everything worth inventing has already been invented, they just need to find the blueprints (re: the shenanigins around the Predator Annihilator "oh... it was part of the design all along...yeah..") So while they may be capable of innovation, they avoid it, since they don't see the point, or may even think it criminal or blasphemous in light of all the undiscovered wonders they could be spending their time unearthing. In exceptional circustances, they have of course been 'persuaded' to come up with new things. Either way, just because the Tau are R&D whores doesn't mean they are de-facto better than humanity. Let's not forget the Dark age of Technology and the Age of Strife. We were like them once, and look where it got us :evilgrin:

5: ...whut? Now if you'd said "They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they venerate them." or "lock them up in a forgeworld somewhere and hide them" then you might have had a point. But unless you have utterly taken Gaunt destroying the STC and production facility for "Iron Men" entirely out of context, I have no idea what you are talking about.

6: ...Is that all you could come up with? Out of all the things the DE might be said to have going for them, people being scared of them is all you've got. I'm disappointed.

7: Necrons also almost never think, reproduce, innovate etc. Being functionally immortal in the long term is not a guarantee of your suitability for dominance.

So yes, some of your points are stronger than others. But every one is based on a gross oversimplification of the culture, phisiology, psychology and the capabilities generally of the races in question.

Blue Orphen
07-04-2008, 16:47
Just something I found humorous...

You say humans are inferior because they are inferior to the other species in the universe.

But you compare humans to each species' strength.

I may be wrong, but neither eldar, tau, nor orks can exist in space without some sort of technology.

So because humans can't handle freezing cold without help and orks can, humans are inferior to orks in every way?

How about this:

Chaos isn't as as good as humans, because chaos worshipers are all crazy.

Tyranids aren't as good as humans because they can't write things down. And because they don't think on their own.

Orks aren't as good as humans because they can't create reliable technology or shoot straight. And good luck if you're an ork and you need to sneak up on someone.

Tau aren't as good as humans because they only have four fingers and couldn't punch the broad side (no pun intended) of a barn. They also suck because they aren't driven by concepts like self-survival.

Eldar aren't as good as humans because they reproduce at a really slow rate, and can only learn one job at a time. And if they decide to learn a different job, they forget how to do everything from their other jobs. Oh, and their souls might get eaten when they die. And they're ridiculously arrogant.

Dark eldar aren't as good as humans because of the stuff above. And because they can't afford clothes that cover everything.

Necrons aren't as good as humans because they are made of metal and walk slow. They also don't think for themselves, and have no sense of self-preservation.

Gee, humans look pretty good now!

=][= Lord
07-04-2008, 17:17
Sorry,

*If you compared a Leman Russ to a Hammerhead.
A hammerheads main weapon has 50% more distance and is generally better in every way, concerning a tank fight.
The only thing the Leman russ has over it is better frontal armour. Which the Hammerhead will still penetrate on a 4+.
Wouldn't that be a big enough incentive for the Imperium to produce better weaponry?

I even recall it saying in the old tau codex:
"Their main weapons punched through our tanks like our armour was paper" Or something very similiar.

Yes, I agree that Hammerheads are better tank killers when they have their railguns, but I believe russes are better infantry killers, especially against necron and marine infantry (not so much against liths) Besides russes are meant to be jack-of-all-trades tanks, some of the forgeworld variants are pretty good tank killers themselves.

AfroCelt
07-04-2008, 17:22
something else humans do well: organize and collaborate. look at the way IG interlink. They can be played very well when you use each unit to cover the other's deficiencies. They rely on it much more than other armies...the other armies all have units that can just steamroll individually.

penguin663
07-04-2008, 17:37
Humans did create the Space Marines, who as far I know are the most adaptable of all the races.

hey're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space. Grey Knights sure as hell don't!

They're not as good as tyranids, as some tyranid organisms can withstand the 'harshness of the void' whereas humans instantly die.- So does nearly everything else!

They're not as good as orks, as orks can stand freezing cold temperatures.. and humans need to protect themselves. Yeah but so can Marines

They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.Ain't broke so don't fix it

They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them. Marines still use milenia old armour, which i think stands testiment to the warranty they get on power armour:evilgrin:

They're as good as dark eldar, as they aren't feared as much by other races. Cough* Angels of Death *Cough

They're not as good as necrons... well... i'd say it's kind of evident seeing as necrons almost never die. Ah but when they do die thats then gone marines don't have this problem, just need to make another marine!

chinnfrequent
07-04-2008, 17:38
Mankind has the largest empire in the galaxy and has survived constant sieges from within and without for thousands of years.

Yeah, we're fit enough.

kikkoman
07-04-2008, 17:39
Some points aren't as strong as others, i'll admit but even still, humans appear to be the lesser of all the races when it comes to bettering themselves in the 40K universe. What do you think?

yes! this is all true. Humans have no advantage, every other alien race is bred for warfare or actively enjoys it. Humans have to suffer, suffer suffer and die pointlessly.

Organization? Half of the Imperium tore itself off to fight for Dark Gods of crazy power. Warp storms can silence chunks of the empire for centuries, generaitons.

Breeding? Orks and Tyranids are natural warriors. Even the 'dying Eldar', they ain't dying out for a looong time.

Technology? The Eldar and Necrons are far more advanced. Orks naturally create technology and recover very quickly.

Even the "humans are smarter than them" races (orks), humans really aren't smarter
Even the "there's more humans than them" races (Eldar), the Eldar pick every fight and every battlefield, and there's still a ton of craftworlds out there.

Even tiny empires like the Tau, they show how overstretched the Imperium is. They could be squashed easily, if the Imperium didn't have to hold off Ork and Eldar marauders, Chaos uprisings and giant reality blotting waves of Tyranids.

The Imperium has no LOGICAL means to fight or survive. But Emperor Willing, they WILL! And what do they have?


What they do have, from the poor guardsmen with only his flashlight and a prayer in his heart, to Inquisitor Lords with knowledge of the full scope of their galactic struggle, they have Faith, Faith in the Emperor.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war, war without end, but there is the idea of hope, there is the faith in humanity that their meaningless lives have a purpose, that the death of one guardsmen out of billions has meaning. Games Workshop creates with 40k a setting that, god damn humans are totally ****ed

but you know what, **** that, I have the Emperor, and we'll persevere.

Firaxin
07-04-2008, 17:40
...You obviously haven't looked at a guard codex in a long time.

The hammerhead's main gun and the basic russ's main gun have exactly the same range.
The hammerhead's is Str10 AP1 + 1d6. The Leman's is Str8 AP3 +2d6 (pick the higher). And simultaneously kills the infantry standing next to the tank. And rolls on a better damage table. And has a better chance of hitting. (which I will explain if you don't believe me)

Then, you have to consider that the russ is the basic all rounder tank. Look at some of the specialist tanks the IG have. Like the leman russ annihilator, or the destroyer, or the vanquisher. Or the basilisk. Hey, tau tanks suck, because they have to actually get close and put themselves in danger, while IG can engage from several boards away.

And the punching through like paper was when they ambushed a convoy, shooting through the side of a tank.

take19
07-04-2008, 17:43
Okay,

1: who says worshippers of Chaos are Sane? Relatively speaking, the simple act of being a Chaos worshipper automatically bars you from the 'sanity club' in my book.

2: Granted, but there's no real Need to get out there in deep space most of the time, and when they do need to, humans have enough doohickeys to compensate for their weakness. And if you're thinking of what happens when... say a hole gets blown in your ship, what good is a Tyranid's ability to survive in a vacuum while they just float around in the endless void of space unable to contact anyone who cares, or acheive anything?

3: So what? Central heating and thermal underwear aren't just for show you know :p And don't forget, the conditions a human requires to reproduce in are a Lot more varied than the Mushroom men.

4: okay, misguided, but you still made my day for noting they Don't make technological advancements, rather than the common misconception that they Can't.

The thing about the Ad-mech is, they believe everything worth inventing has already been invented, they just need to find the blueprints (re: the shenanigins around the Predator Annihilator "oh... it was part of the design all along...yeah..") So while they may be capable of innovation, they avoid it, since they don't see the point, or may even think it criminal or blasphemous in light of all the undiscovered wonders they could be spending their time unearthing. In exceptional circustances, they have of course been 'persuaded' to come up with new things. Either way, just because the Tau are R&D whores doesn't mean they are de-facto better than humanity. Let's not forget the Dark age of Technology and the Age of Strife. We were like them once, and look where it got us :evilgrin:

5: ...whut? Now if you'd said "They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they venerate them." or "lock them up in a forgeworld somewhere and hide them" then you might have had a point. But unless you have utterly taken Gaunt destroying the STC and production facility for "Iron Men" entirely out of context, I have no idea what you are talking about.

6: ...Is that all you could come up with? Out of all the things the DE might be said to have going for them, people being scared of them is all you've got. I'm disappointed.

7: Necrons also almost never think, reproduce, innovate etc. Being functionally immortal in the long term is not a guarantee of your suitability for dominance.

So yes, some of your points are stronger than others. But every one is based on a gross oversimplification of the culture, phisiology, psychology and the capabilities generally of the races in question.

1. Well better put, while viewing the warp would make a normal human a gibbering mess, it would make one chaos worshiper insane, but he's still have the ability to conquer planets.

2.Put it in the context of a boarding action, the humans are flying a cross in a pod, or whatever transport, and a massive whole appears in the side. Everyone inside would die, should they be able to survive in space they would not die.

3. Well yeah you have a point lol, but it just shows humans aren't naturally suited for those environments

4. Well one of my points here is, it is literally an offense in the imperium.. you can compare to Copernicus saying that the earth wasn't the center of everything, he was so scared to speak out at it, as he would be deemed a heretic/criminal he waited till he was on his death bed to speak his mind. This shows that the imperium are so strict on things, they're actually holding themselves back.

5. My point is if anything you can find in the deamonhunters codex see's one, they would destroy it without a question, unless, they were radical.

6. I will concede here, i've not studied DE in depth.

7. Yes, but there are countless necron tombs on worlds that have not beem found, and probabbly never will.

bobmiester
07-04-2008, 17:45
Remember that while all those races may have passing advantages over mankind, none of them have the true potential to replace humans. Tau have better tech in alot of regards, but worse in others. They have no psykers so they can't use true warp travel. In their own little empire the planets are close together so they're fine, but they could never run a true galactic empire.

The Eldar may have many things going for them (tech, psykers, gods) but they are entirely unsuited to survive in a galaxy full of things trying to kill them. Where as humans have the stubborn nature and tenacity it takes to not conquer the galaxy, but to keep it.

Chaos is strong, but completely dependent on mortal psykers. If humanity was gone there would be less emotion in the warp, the chaos powers would quickly wane. Not to mention their source of followers would dry up hella quick.

And Orks, Tyranids and Necrons may have a number of things going for them, but none could make any permanent gains in the galaxy. Necrons have no will, they could never expand because their can never be any more of them. If you think human technology has peaked look at necrons. A Tech Priest may choose not to experiment, but a necron can't even remember his name let alone how to build an antimatter containment field.

And the worse schism in human history is nothing compared to the infighting among Orks. A Warboss can't lay claim to a solar system for more then a couple decades, they could never claim the galaxy, even if they were unopposed.

And Tyranids, as killy and cool as they may be, will never achieve anything. Say they eat the imperium, they would quickly overwhelm the other races, save the c'tan and necrons (no flesh to eat), then they would move on. Soon after the C'tan would die-fall asleep, with no soul food, and the galaxy would be an empty pointless place.

So I guess my point is that mankind is the greatest race, every xeno species can claim one thing or another that they are better at, but there is always other ways that mankind is superior to them. Mankind is the jack of all trades that can handle anything. The humans are the only race with that magic mix of attributes that allowed them to conquer the galaxy and keep it for thousands and thousands of years. Don't player hate just cause your puny races eat the table scraps of the galaxy. You just lack the divine human form, and the guiding light of the only true god.

Imperium FTW.

Nidhogg
07-04-2008, 17:53
You mention that humans have bad technology but, you have you considered the noble space marines?

They are the pinacle of technology and are the match for any other race's warriors. Can Orks go weeks with out eating or sleeping and still carry on fighting? Would an Eldar carry on fighting after losing 70% of its blood? How do tau or tyranids fare when their commanders are killed? SMs will only fight harder to retrieve the bodies.

ASFAIK despite the tau being dubbed technologicaly advanced they still cant warp travel.

We may seem weak but we can counter-act any of our weaknesses. We need warriors so we create SMs. We are fractured and divided so the Imperial creed was introduced and a million people on a million worlds would all fight and die together for the same cause.

I think that humanity is the only race with the inginuity and adaptibility to rule the universe.

Nidhogg

Skeltergeist
07-04-2008, 17:54
Imperium FTW.

That pretty much sums it up.

take19
07-04-2008, 18:00
Remember that while all those races may have passing advantages over mankind, none of them have the true potential to replace humans. Tau have better tech in alot of regards, but worse in others. They have no psykers so they can't use true warp travel. In their own little empire the planets are close together so they're fine, but they could never run a true galactic empire.

The Eldar may have many things going for them (tech, psykers, gods) but they are entirely unsuited to survive in a galaxy full of things trying to kill them. Where as humans have the stubborn nature and tenacity it takes to not conquer the galaxy, but to keep it.

Chaos is strong, but completely dependent on mortal psykers. If humanity was gone there would be less emotion in the warp, the chaos powers would quickly wane. Not to mention their source of followers would dry up hella quick.

And Orks, Tyranids and Necrons may have a number of things going for them, but none could make any permanent gains in the galaxy. Necrons have no will, they could never expand because their can never be any more of them. If you think human technology has peaked look at necrons. A Tech Priest may choose not to experiment, but a necron can't even remember his name let alone how to build an antimatter containment field.

And the worse schism in human history is nothing compared to the infighting among Orks. A Warboss can't lay claim to a solar system for more then a couple decades, they could never claim the galaxy, even if they were unopposed.

And Tyranids, as killy and cool as they may be, will never achieve anything. Say they eat the imperium, they would quickly overwhelm the other races, save the c'tan and necrons (no flesh to eat), then they would move on. Soon after the C'tan would die-fall asleep, with no soul food, and the galaxy would be an empty pointless place.

So I guess my point is that mankind is the greatest race, every xeno species can claim one thing or another that they are better at, but there is always other ways that mankind is superior to them. Mankind is the jack of all trades that can handle anything. The humans are the only race with that magic mix of attributes that allowed them to conquer the galaxy and keep it for thousands and thousands of years. Don't player hate just cause your puny races eat the table scraps of the galaxy. You just lack the divine human form, and the guiding light of the only true god.

Imperium FTW.

Very well put, thats a strong argument, so strong infarct i'll concede on Tyranids-well in a way they could beat humanity, but yes as you put it wouldn't achieve anything- Ork's and necrons.

Keep in mind eldar used to have a massive empire.

Good point on chaos, they could move onto another galaxy? [Like the tyranids apparently do?]

I wont give up on Tau, I think at the rate they progress, if left unopposed for any longer there technology will get to an unbeatable point. Yes, it's fair that they can't use warptravel, but who says they can't make allies with physkers? There empire does incorporate aliens, unlike the Imperium. Well the imperium will probably have aliens hidden within it's vastness, but if they were found they'd be killed.

take19
07-04-2008, 18:02
You mention that humans have bad technology but, you have you considered the noble space marines?

They are the pinacle of technology and are the match for any other race's warriors. Can Orks go weeks with out eating or sleeping and still carry on fighting? Would an Eldar carry on fighting after losing 70% of its blood? How do tau or tyranids fare when their commanders are killed? SMs will only fight harder to retrieve the bodies.

ASFAIK despite the tau being dubbed technologicaly advanced they still cant warp travel.

We may seem weak but we can counter-act any of our weaknesses. We need warriors so we create SMs. We are fractured and divided so the Imperial creed was introduced and a million people on a million worlds would all fight and die together for the same cause.

I think that humanity is the only race with the inginuity and adaptibility to rule the universe.

Nidhogg

Sorry I didn't see that reply.

I purposely didn't mention space marines as they are superhuman, not human:D

Nidhogg
07-04-2008, 18:12
Sorry I didn't see that reply.

I purposely didn't mention space marines as they are superhuman, not human:D

My point was that humans created them.

I was saying that though humans themselves maybe inferior to aliens in certain ways you've got to look at the big picture. A naked guardsman may lose a mud wrestling match to a naked ork(:eek:) but that doesn't reflect their aptitude at conquering the universe. In the same way imperial equipment is included in the equation so to must the space marines be included. They were created to protect humanity and if you start stripping off certain parts of the Imperium then this will return to a large naked brawl with last man/alien/daemon/robot standing winning.

Nidhogg

Luisjoey
07-04-2008, 18:19
Humans have a perfect weapon... SPACE MARINES!

take19
07-04-2008, 19:28
My point was that humans created them.

I was saying that though humans themselves maybe inferior to aliens in certain ways you've got to look at the big picture. A naked guardsman may lose a mud wrestling match to a naked ork(:eek:) but that doesn't reflect their aptitude at conquering the universe. In the same way imperial equipment is included in the equation so to must the space marines be included. They were created to protect humanity and if you start stripping off certain parts of the Imperium then this will return to a large naked brawl with last man/alien/daemon/robot standing winning.

Nidhogg

Good point. I didn't think of it like that I always used to view SM as a race to themselves :(

chinnfrequent
07-04-2008, 19:35
I wont give up on Tau, I think at the rate they progress, if left unopposed for any longer there technology will get to an unbeatable point. Yes, it's fair that they can't use warptravel, but who says they can't make allies with physkers? There empire does incorporate aliens, unlike the Imperium. Well the imperium will probably have aliens hidden within it's vastness, but if they were found they'd be killed.

The only reason the Tau are expanding is because their only real opposition is the weakest part of the imperium, the frontier worlds who are rarely even contacted by Terra. If mankind wanted to wipe out the Tau, they could. But there are more pressing matters to deal with and the Tau empire is small and far away.

take19
07-04-2008, 19:39
The only reason the Tau are expanding is because their only real opposition is the weakest part of the imperium, the frontier worlds who are rarely even contacted by Terra. If mankind wanted to wipe out the Tau, they could. But there are more pressing matters to deal with and the Tau empire is small and far away.

The resistance in the Damocles Gulf Crusade was quite intense by the tau.

DapperAnarchist
07-04-2008, 20:18
Humanity are the only race fit and destined for rule of the Galaxy of Mankind. Any deviation will be swiftly followed by Inquisitorial Purge.

Ahem... on more sane ramblings...

Humans have a lot going for them. For each relative weakness, they have a strength. Also, they haven't messed up the way some other species have. No creating Chaos Gods (well, RoC mentions it - but Necron Codex debunks that) [Eldar]. No being inherently built for combat, unable to do anything else [Orks, Nids, ordinary Necrons]. No getting tricked by Star Vampires into giving up everything except their life [Necrons/Necrontyr]. No abandoning all sanity for service to fickle and uncaring sentient warp storms [Chaos]. No getting taken over by proxy by the Eldar, using phermone implants [Tau. If this sounds odd, go read Xenology.].

They have the consistently fastest ships between systems (the degraded nature of the Webway slows the Eldar down a good bit). They have the most powerful living psyker (sort of. the Living bit that is). They have the largest organised empire. Any other race could be crushed - but its the Imperium that forms a buffer between all these races.

Demise Of Sanity
07-04-2008, 20:28
I think sayign not as good as ... is really fair , as eah them reasons listed above but surely Humans have some good aspects so really in some ways it's fair.

Sir_Turalyon
07-04-2008, 20:57
They're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space.

Eldar understood warp a one time... look how much it helped them.



They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.

They are no longer interested in advancing their technology. Humanity got past that stage, already had technology far superior to Tau, it already backfired on them, they already cast it away. Humans already know things about limits of technolgy that Tau have yet to learn hard way.



They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them.

Yet somehaw it's Eldar who created a chaos god and now exist as dying race, not humanity.

Besides, humanity has the Emperor. He spent last 48 tousand years guiding human race and protecting it from extinction. Between Emperor's guide and inherent human qualities, humanity spread through the galaxy with on scale rivaled only by Orks and maybe ancient Eldar. Humanity created only known galaxy-spaning empire, feat that may be rivalled only by pre-fall Eldar. Humanity has effective interstellar communication based on astropaths, and maintains Navigators and Astronomican that allows warp travel much faster or more precise theh that of other species, except Eldar and Necrons. In fact, Imperium relies on balanced mix of technology and psychic powers, without overrelience on and overdevelopment of one of these elements (like Eldar or Tau). Humanity is no longer in danger of it's psychic powers or technology backfiring and endangering the whole species(as happened to Eldar and will happen to Tau). And, humanity survived backfire of their technology (Age of Strife) in better shape then Elar survived the Fall.

Moriarty
07-04-2008, 22:32
Yep, da 'Umies is weak an' got nuffink goin' fer dem. But dey is jes too dumb ter know it.

azimaith
08-04-2008, 00:24
Hey guys,

I was thinking about this last night.. and to me it seems that humans are just not physically/mentally up to scratch for conlonising space. Think about it:

They're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space.

But they can remain in the materium infinitely while warp spawn must return to whence they came.



They're not as good as tyranids, as some tyranid organisms can withstand the 'harshness of the void' whereas humans instantly die.

For one, they don't instantly die, second, any human can withstand the harshness of the void using technology.



They're not as good as orks, as orks can stand freezing cold temperatures.. and humans need to protect themselves.

Humans terraformed worlds and build homes to withstand whatever temperatures they like, even keeping themselves comfortable.



They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.

They've superior eyesight and reflexes to tau and their technology currently doesn't need to advance with their current warfighting style.



They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them.

Yet they are more populous than the eldar and spread over the galaxy.



They're as good as dark eldar, as they aren't feared as much by other races.

Every race fears or respects the imperium should they have that capacity if for nothing else but its size and brute strength.



They're not as good as necrons... well... i'd say it's kind of evident seeing as necrons almost never die.

Except where the necrons aren't even alive in the first place. They still currently control more space than the necrons and present a sizeable threat(and currently insurmountable) to the nascent red harvest.



Some points aren't as strong as others, i'll admit but even still, humans appear to be the lesser of all the races when it comes to bettering themselves in the 40K universe. What do you think?
Humans adapt and use technology, they're tool users. That makes them better than beasts who can't.

They're spread all over the galaxy and extremely populous, if theres something that determines a species success it is the width and breadth to which they have spread.

They are the major power in the universe and are still surviving while fighting many enemies on many fronts.

Humans are well in the lead.


Remember that while all those races may have passing advantages over mankind, none of them have the true potential to replace humans. Tau have better tech in alot of regards, but worse in others. They have no psykers so they can't use true warp travel. In their own little empire the planets are close together so they're fine, but they could never run a true galactic empire.
That depends on whose ferrying the tau around.



The Eldar may have many things going for them (tech, psykers, gods) but they are entirely unsuited to survive in a galaxy full of things trying to kill them. Where as humans have the stubborn nature and tenacity it takes to not conquer the galaxy, but to keep it.

They aren't unsuited for it as then they'd be dead already. They just made a huge mistake that crippled their race.



Chaos is strong, but completely dependent on mortal psykers. If humanity was gone there would be less emotion in the warp, the chaos powers would quickly wane. Not to mention their source of followers would dry up hella quick.

Actually the warp doesn't much care one way or the other. There were warp entities well before there were crazy daemons floating around. They aren't really a race anyhow.



And Orks, Tyranids and Necrons may have a number of things going for them, but none could make any permanent gains in the galaxy.

Your way off base here. The Orks have already made permanant gains in the galaxy and beyond human reach. It was written that even when probes were sent out well beyond human space they'd pick up ork transmissions. Tyranids have no interest in permanant gains and the necrons have had "permanant gains" for the last 60 million years and still hold many.



Necrons have no will,

Not necessarily. Necron lords maintain personalities and they can even insert personalities according to the apoc book.


they could never expand because their can never be any more of them. If you think human technology has peaked look at necrons.

Where did you get this idea. The means by which the necrons were created still remain thus the idea there can be no more of them is only true in semantics (as there are no more necrontyr, they'd be humacrons or whatever you'd like to call them)



A Tech Priest may choose not to experiment, but a necron can't even remember his name let alone how to build an antimatter containment field.

Which is why they were building null field generating pylons in Medusa V? Necrons still build and maintain, they just don't need to research. The Tech priest doesn't research because its heretical most of the time.



And the worse schism in human history is nothing compared to the infighting among Orks. A Warboss can't lay claim to a solar system for more then a couple decades, they could never claim the galaxy, even if they were unopposed.

Of course orks as a race could claim the galaxy, the orks are a race. Gutzmeks Speed Freeks may never own a galactic empire but hes an ork, not the orks.



And Tyranids, as killy and cool as they may be, will never achieve anything. Say they eat the imperium, they would quickly overwhelm the other races, save the c'tan and necrons (no flesh to eat), then they would move on. Soon after the C'tan would die-fall asleep, with no soul food, and the galaxy would be an empty pointless place.

So on your scale eating all the life in a galaxy is achieving nothing?



So I guess my point is that mankind is the greatest race, every xeno species can claim one thing or another that they are better at, but there is always other ways that mankind is superior to them. Mankind is the jack of all trades that can handle anything. The humans are the only race with that magic mix of attributes that allowed them to conquer the galaxy and keep it for thousands and thousands of years. Don't player hate just cause your puny races eat the table scraps of the galaxy. You just lack the divine human form, and the guiding light of the only true god.

Imperium FTW.
Well depsite a great deal of what you said being wrong the only thing thats to be said about it is they currently control the universe. Thats all the explanation you need. Whether it will stay that way is uncertain.

Grimbad
08-04-2008, 00:49
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3. Same as above, as well as humans tend to have more cunning then the orks, and tend to be more altruistic.

Orks have a whole god for kunning, I thought I'd point that out before the kommando in your closet makes his move.

Sceleris82
08-04-2008, 07:41
There is a reason to that humans are at the very top of the food chain on earth.

Even though we suck at resisting cold, we have always since the stone age dominated nature forexample the mammoth, even though it is better adapted to the cold, that i was so much bigger and stronger, it still became the hunted.
There are alot of reasons for the human species being so succesfull.

As said above we reproduce alot, but another deciding factor is that we are so inventive and curious.

Human will never settle for things, we will always expand and we are a very aggressive species, combine that nature with the ability to invent and adapt to situations on the go and you have a extremly adaptive species.

So yeah maybe the imperium sucks atm due to religius stuff, but so did we in the dark ages. At some point it will end and them humans will own the face of 40k again. I hope so anyway =).

Remoah
08-04-2008, 07:47
They're not as good as chaos, because they go insane at the sight of warp space.
But we have ADAPTED. Gellar fields and the like still allow us into the warp.

They're not as good as tyranids, as some tyranid organisms can withstand the 'harshness of the void' whereas humans instantly die.
Those tyranid organisims are the size of a city and actually have thier own gravataional pull.

They're not as good as orks, as orks can stand freezing cold temperatures.. and humans need to protect themselves.
Again. Adaption, coats and hot food allow us to fight well enough in these tempratures.

They're not as good as tau, as they're never willing to advance there technology.
But we've GOT technology, think of it like this: The russian army didnt have all the fancy-pants technology, tanks and missiles that the US army did in the 70's. But it could've stomped them. Why? Numbers, willpower and tactics. You can have the bes guns and equipment in the world but if your generals are useless twits then you'll still loose.

They're not as good as eldar, as instead of using the ancient technologies they have, they destroy them.
Much eldar tech won't WORK without a psychic signal from another eldar. Thus a human can grab a shuriken catapult but still not use it.

They're as good as dark eldar, as they aren't feared as much by other races.
Two Words: Kreig. Cavalry.

They're not as good as necrons... well... i'd say it's kind of evident seeing as necrons almost never die.
Fluffwise humans have barely encountered the Crons. Give them time, we'll capture one and eventually find what makes it tick.

Adra
08-04-2008, 09:38
also necrons are not really a race at all, just a bunch of constructs controled by overlords. Its like saying a army of servitors are a race.

I agree that SM are the best example of humans adapting. Oh we aint as good at this this and this when fighting....lets make a human that is.

demiourgos
08-04-2008, 13:02
to succinctly answer the question, it is you who is not fit for the galaxy, the humans are just fine. :)

naturally i'm kidding...

Firaxin
08-04-2008, 16:58
Marine's aren't the ultimate example of mankind's adaptability... it would have to be the Custodes, or the Iron Men, or the imperial assassins.

Emperor's Avenger
08-04-2008, 17:05
Most of the problems listed, such as declining technology, aren't a trait of humans in general, just the Imperium and its dogma.

El_Machinae
09-04-2008, 14:57
Humans were really good at conquering the galaxy, under the old set of rules. Expansion, technological advancement, cohesive governments, etc. all allowed them to roll out with a fierce pride.

It's the fact that the rules have changed since the Emperor came to power (chaos being much more important, and the strangeness of the government since the Emperor was struck down) that hurts them. Nowadays there's merely making use of their old advantages and old infrastructure to tread water.

I feel like we're in a similar situation these days, too willing to rest on our laurels as the world decays around us.