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Latro
12-10-2005, 08:35
There are two spells in the Lore of Athel Loren that I'm not quite sure of what the effects are ... so if you have any idea about how they should work, or even better, if you know the official answer please let me know :)

The Hidden Path

The part that makes me wonder is "the unit treats all terrain as open ground". I read this as an effect that would make a unit be able to see and charge right through a piece of terrain that would normally block line of sight. Needless to say this would make it a very nice spell :D ...

The Call of the Hunt

Again, the part that I'm curious about reads "it immediately makes a 2d6 inch move towards the nearest enemy unit it can see". As far as I know, GW uses the word "see" to define the 360 degrees view around a model that isn't blocked by scenery or other models ... which would mean that this spell could make a unit charge something behind it (as long as it's within the 2d6 inch range).

So let me know if I'm reading this the right way ( ... or if GW ust produced another case of iffy wording)

:cool:

Atrahasis
12-10-2005, 10:16
The Hidden PathA lot of debate has been waged on this one, as the spell stands, yes the terrain counts as open ground for all purposes. When Q&A/errata arrive we'll see what the intent was.


The Call of the Hunt"See" means within LOS. LOS is defined as 90 degrees to the front for most units. If its a skirmishing unit, then it has no "behind", so I think you're misinterpreting "see".

Latro
12-10-2005, 10:27
"See" means within LOS. LOS is defined as 90 degrees to the front for most units. If its a skirmishing unit, then it has no "behind", so I think you're misinterpreting "see".

I'm not so sure of that. The reason for this is that scouts cannot be deployed where they can be seen ... staying away from "line of sight" is not the same as "out of sight".

To me this says that "see" and "line of sight" are two different things ... then again, it could simply be (yet another) case of fuzzy rules.

:cool:

Atrahasis
12-10-2005, 10:49
I'm not so sure of that. The reason for this is that scouts cannot be deployed where they can be seen ... staying away from "line of sight" is not the same as "out of sight".

To me this says that "see" and "line of sight" are two different things ... then again, it could simply be (yet another) case of fuzzy rules.

:cool:

The "out of sight" for scouts DID mean out of LOS until it was clariified that all units have 360 vision before the start of turn 1.

Latro
12-10-2005, 11:07
The "out of sight" for scouts DID mean out of LOS until it was clariified that all units have 360 vision before the start of turn 1.

... and what a beautiful "clarification" that must have been :rolleyes:

I can't say that I'm very convinced by it all, but I am sure I will use the spell only in the "safe version" now ... if there's anything I can't stand it's argueing about vague rule-interpretations during a battle.

Thanks!

:cool:

Avian
12-10-2005, 11:14
The Hidden Path

The part that makes me wonder is "the unit treats all terrain as open ground". I read this as an effect that would make a unit be able to see and charge right through a piece of terrain that would normally block line of sight.
A hill is open ground, but blocks line of sight, so there is nothing anywhere that implies that open ground does not block LOS.



The Call of the Hunt

Again, the part that I'm curious about reads "it immediately makes a 2d6 inch move towards the nearest enemy unit it can see". As far as I know, GW uses the word "see" to define the 360 degrees view around a model that isn't blocked by scenery or other models ... which would mean that this spell could make a unit charge something behind it (as long as it's within the 2d6 inch range).
What a model can see is defined on page 41, third sentence under "Facing".

Latro
12-10-2005, 11:47
A hill is open ground, but blocks line of sight, so there is nothing anywhere that implies that open ground does not block LOS.

So a unit under the effects of this spell would treat a hill as still being a hill (since it allready is open terrain) which ofcourse will block line of sight.

Clear as daylight.

... but I can't follow the logic of the same unit being confronted by some trees and still having no line of sight. The spell makes them treat is as open terrain, which allows line of sight unles it happens to be a hill, so they should be able to charge right through it ... it's not as if it suddenly has become very hilly open terrain.


What a model can see is defined on page 41, third sentence under "Facing".

I know, but I was under the impression that because of the ruling on deploying scouts this had changed to a distinct difference between seeing and having line of sight.

Apparently the only thing that changed was what units see before the first turn :wtf: ... which doesn't make much sence, but is a ruling anyway, case closed.

Avian
12-10-2005, 12:13
... but I can't follow the logic of the same unit being confronted by some trees and still having no line of sight. The spell makes them treat is as open terrain, which allows line of sight unles it happens to be a hill, so they should be able to charge right through it ... it's not as if it suddenly has become very hilly open terrain.
Open terrain, ruleswise, just means that you can move across it at full speed, it does not imply in any way that you can see through it. Rulebook p. 50, right column, second paragraph. Only movement is mentioned, LOS is not.

Examples of the opposite are lakes and swamps, which do not block LOS, but which are difficult terrain.

LOS and movement penalties are not related.


Even ethereal units, who ignore terrain when moving, cannot see through things. I imagine that units affected by the Hidden path see the wood as an area of fog - they can move through it as if it wasn't there, but they can't see through it.

T10
12-10-2005, 12:41
The "out of sight" for scouts DID mean out of LOS until it was clariified that all units have 360 vision before the start of turn 1.

In what context did this little gem pop up?

-T10

Avian
12-10-2005, 12:46
I think it was in the first Annual. Technically it's not neccessary, since the rulebook says you have to be in or behind interposing terrain.

Sinew
12-10-2005, 13:37
In what context did this little gem pop up?

-T10I don't know where it first appeared but I read it recently on the GW main site forums, there's a long standing Q&A thread with answers from Gavin Thorpe and other games designers.


A hill is open ground Really? I don't have my BRB on me at the moment, is that what it says? I would not call a hill open ground despite the fact that it has no movement penalties.

Avian
12-10-2005, 19:12
Really? I don't have my BRB on me at the moment, is that what it says? I would not call a hill open ground despite the fact that it has no movement penalties.
The Open ground paragraph on page 50 specifically mentions hills.

And "no movement penalties" is what constitutes Open ground.

god octo
29-10-2005, 19:14
For call of the hunt it also says, "if it can see no enemy unit, then it will move straight forwards, nominate a direction for skirmishers before rolling"