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brassangel
07-04-2008, 22:30
I'm not going to gripe about GW's prices, as I've finally come to terms with them and have started buying/collecting the game(s) once more. My complaint has to do with the points to dollar ratio of going from one army to the next.

For example: 10 Space Marines for US $35 vs 10 Space Orks for US $35. Those ten Marines will crush ten Orks. Am I wrong? And they fill up points quicker. Some people like to squeeze in as many guys as possible, but if I'm going to pay US $105 to get the same bang out of the Orks as I can get for $35 out of the Marines, I'm going to play Marines.

This, and countless other inconsistencies have made playing, and sticking with the game difficult for my playing group. It just seems financially unreasonable to play certain armies because of how few points/punch you get for the dollar in some areas. Bretonnians are another good example of this. Spend $35 on a Knights Regiment, add a character ($15), and you have the perfect lance formation, charge-in-to-crush-anything squad for around 250 points. Spend $35 on Night Goblins + $15 for a character and...well...yeah.

Am I the only one who encounters this problem? How do some of you guys/girls remedy this while maintaining a budget that doesn't dedicate itself to gaming?

RCgothic
07-04-2008, 22:34
It's one of the things I like about space marines. I've got a full battle company (90% painted). Collecting another army of similar strength would have been quite a challenge.

However, now that I have a full playable I'm moving onto IG. Because I already have a full playable army, I'm happier to take it slower this time around.

brassangel
07-04-2008, 22:40
That makes sense. I've talked to a lot of financial advisors, and am currently taking a class designed by one of the best, and I have everything budgeted. This means that I have a separate fund for "entertainment." I have to build an army slowly, which allows me the time to paint, and plan my next purchase well in advance.

I still find it difficult, however, to buy skeletons or zombies, for example, when I need 40 to make a playable squad, and then two more boxes to complete 2 Core choices, and I still haven't sniffed the amount of points of my opponents 20 Ogres, and I've spent 3x as much money.

Patience is the key, but if I want to play anytime soon, I have to look at the dollar to point ratio. I know it can't possibly cost them (GW) so much to make the plastic that they can't do a more point-to-dollar friendly pricing system. While the 5 Terminators are still ridiculous, the new Ork Boyz boxed set has to be pretty close to absurdity as well.

Thanks, RCgothic, for the reply.

Drugmoney420
07-04-2008, 22:43
I thought that 10 orks was $22.50 or at least that's what it was the last time I checked gamesworkshop.com. However, at that price it still seems like it's a bad deal.


EDIT: I just checked and on the website it's $22.00

eriochrome
07-04-2008, 22:45
I think you have entirely the wrong attitude. The dollar price should depend on the number of pieces/size/complexity of the models. It should have nothing to do with in game effectiveness or points value. If you want something like that go play a "collectable mini/card game". Getting any the army up to a 1000-2000 point level is not horrible with the battleforces/discounters. Now the time spent modeling is another question.

It is cheaper to play the elite armies as it should be since you are getting less physical pieces that something has to make/package/ship.

Victomorga
07-04-2008, 22:47
there really isn't any way around this.

some armies are way more expensive, although usually you'll find that horde armies actually end up being cheaper per-model than their elite counter parts. orks are actually 10 for $22, not 10 for $35. the gaunts / gants box for tyranids is 16 models for $35.

also, some lists can be played differently to fit your budget. an ork kult of speed for instance uses fewer models than a "hordes of boyz" approach.

(now to contradict my opening statement)

and another option is: never, ever buy anything from GW ever again. between ebay and discount sites like thewarstore.com and chaosorc.com you really never have to pay retail again unless you fall victim to an impulse buy.

thewarstore.com and chaosorc.com offer standard 20% or more off ALL GW merchandise, as well as solid customer support and cheap or free shipping. being patient and watching ebay will allow you to get large lots at a fraction of what the models would cost you new.

don't get discouraged; it is an expensive hobby, make no mistake, but there are ways around paying what GW is asking for everything. LEGAL ways.

incidentally, what army / armies are you looking to start?

brassangel
07-04-2008, 23:24
Orks are $35 at all three FLGS's within 50 miles of my home. The nearest GW store is 5 1/2 hours away. I don't shop on their website very often as paying retail seems to be the quickest way to go broke with this game, but if I want Ork Boyz, I'll go to one of the sites listed from now on. Thank you for the correction.

Gaunts are a horrible value because you get 8 and 8. Two boxes and you may have enough to warrant two core choices, but hardly. I used to play Tyranids, and never reached 2000 points (with a playable army) for less money than anyone around me.

Prices should be based on plastic and model complexity? Why in the world are Terminators $50 then? They are really the equivelant (or $5 less) of a Land Raider or Monolith in terms of complexity, and plastic?

@Victomorga: I took your advice on a Bretonnian Knights boxed regiment and got them for pretty cheap. 8 in a box seems odd simply because people almost always suggest 9, but it's still not a bad value (especially at 20% off). To answer your question, I'm starting Bretonnians in WFB, and I'm not sure in 40K yet because the rules are about to change which always creates an awkard stage of gameplay while older books rotate, etc.

I also prefer to play as realistically as possible. ie: one basic troop type that represents the bulk of the army, with a few support or hard-hitting units on the flank. I guess as a bit of a history buff, I always imagine 10,000 hoplites in a phalanx supported by a few cavalry, or supported by a few missile troops, but there's one main stay. I can't stand the White Dwarf style, or tournament style armies which have one of every type for the purpose of taking advantage of, or manipulating certain rules combinations. I prefer to act as a bit of a general. It's the geek in me. It's a part of what makes it difficult, financially, to validate playing more than half of the armies.

To an earlier comment: I do play a CCG, and it's far more economically sensible to build and play anything a person could want than this product could ever hope to be. That doesn't mean I'm going to just give up over a speed bump. That's why I posted this thread looking for advice. The variance in the replies has been helpful, and I can draw a little bit from each new post.

Thanks everybody, and keep it coming!

JLBeady
08-04-2008, 00:57
I reconciled myself long ago that choosing certain armies meant paying more than other armies. Of course, I remember the day when I could get 3 metal minis in a blister for $7 US :cries:

Obviously your budget will play a big role in what you decide to do, but in the long run if you are into the hobby, playing what you like even if it costs more to do Orks than say Space Marines and takes longer to build your dream army will benefit you more in the long run.

ankara halla
08-04-2008, 01:04
How do some of you guys/girls remedy this while maintaining a budget that doesn't dedicate itself to gaming?

It's really simple, I've simply stopped paying retail price. In the ~18 odd years I've been in the hobby the prices have never been as outrageous as they are now nor has the availibility of kits (second hand or brand new) for discounted prices from retailers of various sorts.

Seriously, just look at the models/kits you are interested in. Take a good long look and really consider if it's worth the money. If it isn't go look somewhere else. It really is that simple.


I think you have entirely the wrong attitude. The dollar price should depend on the number of pieces/size/complexity of the models. It should have nothing to do with in game effectiveness or points value.

GW thinks otherwise. It wasn't that long ago that they pumed up the prices of a lot of units in both WH and WH40k becouse of their "effectiveness" in the game... If it's a lot of points, it should cost more money. You can still see that policy today in a number of kits (they cost an arm and a leg, look cool but are next to useless when compared money wise to other kits with more than twice the modelling value, and sometimes points value as well...) but even so, you are seeing again the claim that "it's not the number of points in game terms, it's the modelling value!" regarding a number of the newer generation plastics kits.

Victomorga
08-04-2008, 01:09
yeah, brassangel, the web is a godsend to all collector-nerds.

regarding the pricing of GW models:

they aren't priced according to complexity and / or detail.

GW's pricing is a large, interrelated pricing structure which spans all their products. space marines are responsible for a HUGE majority of GW's profits. I've even heard (though this was admittedly hearsay and not fact) that SM sales earn more for GW than all of fantasy combined.

the point is this: because many products don't "pull their own weight," many other products need to pick up the slack, and things get complicated. terminators are expensive because they sell more of them. most companies can drop their weaker products and maximize their sales in doing so. GW can't because their products are all interdependent.

example: SM make the most money, so stop making everything else and concentrate on SM, right? wrong. without enemies to fight, the SM not only don't make sense, but they become boring. GW needs to support their mythos / fluff / whatever you want to call it order to bolster the brand-identity of their flagship products. so the lines they take the biggest losses on (the less-popular armies, or the ones which are more expensive for them to make / distribute) have their profit margin compensated by other models which sell better.

why would 16 tyranid infantry cost any less to manufacture than ten SM? they don't; they probably cost more (the mold is more complicated, they have more bits, etc.). but people need more models to play, and so terminators, which sell well, cost waaaay more than they need to in order to make up for the lesser profits on sets like the gaunts / gants box.

the further away from metal models GW moves, the wider their profit margins, and hopefully the more balanced their pricing. in the mean time, I think the cardinal rule is that the models you want / are most attractive in your range will be the biggest money-makers for GW (and worst deal for the consumer), and the best deals for the consumer (ergo the worst for GW) will be the meat-and-potatoes units you actually NEED for your given force (like the gaunts / gants mentioned above).

keep your head up! we all got into this to be wrapped up in the same imaginary world, albeit in different aspects; don't let inevitable griping by others (or yourself) turn your enjoyable pastime into a source of stress or frustration. that's the opposite of the purpose of any hobby.

JLBeady
08-04-2008, 01:22
As for the cost of casting, the things that would drive cost are the cost of the molds and the material used. Sure Tyranids looking complicated, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that it takes about the same amount of plastic to cast Tyranids as other sprues. That being said, if you are making 1000 SM sprues for every 1 Tyranid sprue, then economies of scale kick in and tryanids are priced to reflect the low volume product they are.

The other thought that came to mind is that the cost of the other armies is also based on the fact that people playing those armies are likely to be dedicated hobbyists and not casual hobbyists who are willing to spend the money to play those horde armies or less played armies (except DE who are just as said now as they were back when 3rd ed came out....sigh)

BTW I am not saying that SM players are casual hobbyists. Some of the SM armies I have seen speak for themselves in that regard. That said, I have always been very impressed by the player who fields a nicely painted horde army as that to me was a sign of someone who was committed to the hobby.

UncleCrazy
08-04-2008, 03:09
The real cost is in the molds themselves though.

Mitheral
08-04-2008, 03:12
and another option is: never, ever buy anything from GW ever again. between ebay and discount sites like thewarstore.com and chaosorc.com you really never have to pay retail again unless you fall victim to an impulse buy.

Agree with your point, just want to point out that not all models are available thru the discounters. I tried to buy some Tomb Spiders last year from the War Store and was unable to as they are a direct sales item only. I couldn't even buy them from a GW store. Managed to find an independent with some old stock and of course there is always eBay.

Hicks
08-04-2008, 06:14
For me GW's price had different effects at different times in my life. When I just started playing 40K, I really wanted to have a Catachan army (their codex was just coming out). Sadly, it didn't take long before I realized the poor kid I was could never buy enough minis for a viable army. I was pretty much pushed into playing Space Marines, because they had more plastic kits and higher point values than any other army. Note also, that at this time I didn't own a credit card and ebay and online stores weren't a solution for me.

After a couple of years, I wanted back in the 40K world. Things were a bit better though, I had a job and all my money was basically disposable income. At the same time, I became really involved in online trading as well as ebaying. Not only did I have more money, I also was able to get GW products for much less. It was at this time that I got the first chunk of my Steel Legion army.

Nowadays, I try to spend less on minis (the car, the GF and uni means much less disposable income), over are the days where I would switch armies on a whim.

I think everybody who plays this game for long enough will eventually get the army they really want, it's just a matter of time before the addiction makes you lose your mind completely.

Grimbad
08-04-2008, 06:31
If you're looking into Orks, try to make up for the cost of the infantry by building the vehicles from scratch. Thanks to the wonderful state of Ork technology, you can make some really nice characterful vehicles from a bunch of household materials, a few leftover bits, and a lot of time and effort.
As an example, I built my gargant's right arm out of pens, wood blocks, plastic toy parts, and these funky plastic video game arcade payment card thingies.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/grimbadgrotkikka/P3283699.jpg

Trickle
08-04-2008, 10:26
Spend $35 on Night Goblins + $15 for a character and...well...yeah.

Night goblins are actually quite cheep because of Battle for Skull pass. You see the 6th edition box set Orcs up for sale regularly. They also still remain at 20 per box + are massively discounted in the battalion and Army box sets. There is also a huge choice of 2nd hand models available online.

I've just started a fantasy O+G horde (all brand new plastic) because it was so cheap.

Space Orks don't seem very good value in comparison at the moment. No 100 ($185?) box yet etc. Perhaps wait for the 5th edition box set if you want to start them?



Am I the only one who encounters this problem?

Tyranids seem good value as a 40K horde army. I've got genestealers coming out of my ears from space hulk box sets and BFM. People sell them for pennies on Ebay. Battalion box set is good value too from discount places mention by other people on this thread.

Fay_Redd
08-04-2008, 11:48
"10 Space Marines for US $35 vs 10 Space Orks for US $35."

wait what, 10 SM are the same price as 10 orks, thats awsome.
over here in england an SM tactical squad is 6 quid more than a box of 10 orks, which makes orks the far better deal.

Victomorga
08-04-2008, 15:21
"10 Space Marines for US $35 vs 10 Space Orks for US $35."

wait what, 10 SM are the same price as 10 orks, thats awsome.
over here in england an SM tactical squad is 6 quid more than a box of 10 orks, which makes orks the far better deal.

nah, read the rest of the thread- it's the same here (in the U.S.) the OP's local store just marks them up and he can't get to an actual GW easily.

sukigod
08-04-2008, 17:49
nah, read the rest of the thread- it's the same here (in the U.S.) the OP's local store just marks them up and he can't get to an actual GW easily.

If the local gaming store in my area charged me the same price as the old 16 boyz box for the new 10 boyz box, I'd stop shopping there - immediately.

sephiroth87
08-04-2008, 18:05
yeah, brassangel, the web is a godsend to all collector-nerds.

regarding the pricing of GW models:

they aren't priced according to complexity and / or detail.

GW's pricing is a large, interrelated pricing structure which spans all their products. space marines are responsible for a HUGE majority of GW's profits. I've even heard (though this was admittedly hearsay and not fact) that SM sales earn more for GW than all of fantasy combined.

the point is this: because many products don't "pull their own weight," many other products need to pick up the slack, and things get complicated. terminators are expensive because they sell more of them. most companies can drop their weaker products and maximize their sales in doing so. GW can't because their products are all interdependent.

example: SM make the most money, so stop making everything else and concentrate on SM, right? wrong. without enemies to fight, the SM not only don't make sense, but they become boring. GW needs to support their mythos / fluff / whatever you want to call it order to bolster the brand-identity of their flagship products. so the lines they take the biggest losses on (the less-popular armies, or the ones which are more expensive for them to make / distribute) have their profit margin compensated by other models which sell better.

why would 16 tyranid infantry cost any less to manufacture than ten SM? they don't; they probably cost more (the mold is more complicated, they have more bits, etc.). but people need more models to play, and so terminators, which sell well, cost waaaay more than they need to in order to make up for the lesser profits on sets like the gaunts / gants box.

the further away from metal models GW moves, the wider their profit margins, and hopefully the more balanced their pricing. in the mean time, I think the cardinal rule is that the models you want / are most attractive in your range will be the biggest money-makers for GW (and worst deal for the consumer), and the best deals for the consumer (ergo the worst for GW) will be the meat-and-potatoes units you actually NEED for your given force (like the gaunts / gants mentioned above).

keep your head up! we all got into this to be wrapped up in the same imaginary world, albeit in different aspects; don't let inevitable griping by others (or yourself) turn your enjoyable pastime into a source of stress or frustration. that's the opposite of the purpose of any hobby.

Holy Crap. That actually made a lot of sense.

Victomorga
08-04-2008, 19:36
Holy Crap. That actually made a lot of sense.

thanks. I wasn't just pontificating; I went to school for this sort of thing. I don't pretend to know the specifics of GW's marketing strategies and production costs, but this is the way these sorts of things work.