View Full Version : The new VC vs. TK

08-04-2008, 00:34
Just curious if any veteran TK players here have played against the new VC, anything that works or doesn't? It seems the prob with VC is that they get bigger as the game goes on and there casters hit like bricks and ours well....we need not go there. J/c on any advice?

08-04-2008, 00:47
I haven't played a game against them yet and i don't much care to for these reasons:

They took away the unique version of raising for tomb kings; whereas vamps could only reraise skeletons and zombies we could reraise everything. Those days are gone so now they can raise the same as us...but better.

Even a LHP, 2 Priest combo can only raise 4 times, Vampires can go for 10 or 11 in a turn!

The vampires can now cast the same movement and raising spells over and over, taking away the unique nature of the tomb kings attrition style magic.
And they can march, so they're faster, even across units with the same movement.

The vampires have skeletons that are exactly the same as ours...but cheaper
And can be increased in size all for a 15 point Master Power that every Vampire can take.

The vampires have elite skeletons the same as ours...but with better armour and upgrades.

The wight king is now a tomb prince but with better leadership (AFAIK)
No magic on the Wight, but no killing blow on the Prince. Wight Kings are 25 points less, and can be the BSB. If TK want a BSB, they're stuck with the foolish and useless Icon Bearer.

AND they took an item which was originally a tomb king only item. I want my helm of commandment back damnit!

Tomb king crumbling is much worse than vampire crumbling; we dont get ward saves and regeneration and our best units aren't immune (unlike the varghulf, black coach, and blood knights)

Now don't get me wrong i think the new vampire book is a worthy addition to warhammer, BUT as a tomb king player i think we're in for a rough road ahead against our undead cousins until a new book comes out. Kind of sad considering i think our current book is one of the best balanced of the lot.

Kabal of The Ordo Mallius
08-04-2008, 15:11
TK are now like the Dark Eldar (until they get a new codex).

08-04-2008, 15:38
I'll admit that I was worried at first. I thought that our unique advantage had been seriously eroded. However, now that I've played my Kings against the new VCs a few times and got at least a draw each time (and that only only because my opponent was cheating with reckless abandon), I'm not so concerned.

We still have some definite advantages. TK spells still always go off unless dispelled. We are still undead and don't run from their fear. We have archers and a great catapult. The casket still works. Scorpions still kill Vamps deader (barring the occasional one wearing that anti-poison-and-killing-blow doohickey). Finally, we have great defense against Vampiric magic: A Tomb King army with the Casket and a Staff of Sorcery in it will shut the Vampires' one-die-casting shtick down... hard.

Kings can still beat other armies just as well as they always could -- and I'd give them at least even money against the VC.

Is it annoying that TK lost some of their uniqueness? Sure. Are TK players going to have to work a little harder to beat the new vamps than the old ones? Probably. Is it a huge deal? Not at all. We'll adapt, and all be laughing about the Vampiric Panic of '08 in a year.

08-04-2008, 15:59
TK are now like the Dark Eldar (until they get a new codex).

Any news on when that'll be?

08-04-2008, 18:36
we have great defense against Vampiric magic: A Tomb King army with the Casket and a Staff of Sorcery in it will shut the Vampires' one-die-casting shtick down... hard.

I agree. The casket is the key to a successful Tomb King strategy against the Vampire Counts. Not only does it shut down the vampire spell spam, but it will also impact their magic defense, making the liche's incantations more viable... because vampire units also tend to have pretty low leadership and the light of death will do severe damage if left unchecked.

The casket also lets the Tomb King player dictate the course of the game. The vampire is going to have to do something about it if he/she wants to stand a chance of winning. Unfortunately, the vampires have a wealth of units suited to casket hunting... and none of the Tomb King units seem up to the task of defenders in one on one situations. On the bright side, vampires and their elite units are expensive, so the defenders shouldn't have to face any uneven match ups alone. Cunning deployment will be the second key to victory.

Bloodknights should be baited into skellie tarpits by sacrificial fast cav.

Vargulfs should be countered by a gauntlet of undead constructs. A tomb scorpion wont take a vargulf alone, but some ushabti and a tomb scorpion will. Vargulfs can't fly, so if the ushabti are positioned to block them, it will either have to go through them or around them. A bone giant or some tomb scorpions should be waiting for it when it does.

Fell bats will be a big problem if your casket is on a hill, and it should be. While carrion seem like an obvious choice to counter, I put forth the proposition that chariots and light or heavy:rolleyes: cavalry be given the task, as those special slots should be used for more undead constructs.

The staff of ravening seems like a good choice for blasting away at everything from fell bats to cairn wraiths.

Skeleton archers might be useful for breaking down dire wolves and fell bats, but I think I'd try combat skellies the first few games as wolves aren't really a popular choice. I'd also forgo the screaming skull catapult in favor of a bone giant if there are points available.

I'm thinking Tomb Kings vs Vampire counts would be a more fun, challenging and exciting match up than I originally thought. Might be time to go dust of some of my ancient pieces...