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Spirit
08-04-2008, 11:50
Ok, a vampire item that allows you to sacrifice wounds during the magic phase to gain power dice.

The wording of the rule: "At any time during the magic phase the user may sacrifice a wound to gain a power dice"

No where does it say one use only, nowhere does it say once per phase, just "At any time..."

My questions:
1: Can it be used more than once per turn?

2: Could it be used at the start of the magic phase to gain a dice for your black coach?

3: Could you use it at the start of the enemy phase to gain a dice for your black coach?


It may seem silly to want to do the last one, but i'm using it with the blood drinker to get wounds back, so if he is in combat in the enemy turn, the lord will get the wound back in that turn anyway.

SuperBeast
08-04-2008, 11:58
1 & 2, I'd say yes.

As you don't - by definition - get power dice in your opponent's magic phase, I'd say no to 3.

Spirit
08-04-2008, 22:07
Ok, i can see where your coming from. I was thinking that just because you don't generate any, does not mean its impossible to get them. No?

Lordmonkey
08-04-2008, 22:38
1 and 2, both yes.

For 3, i'd say no. Even if you could, it would probably be quite the gamble for use with the coach.

Spirit
08-04-2008, 23:42
What do you mean gamble? If you mean because of the wound, it would only be used if the vamp was already in combat (thus probably striking first).

Lordmonkey
08-04-2008, 23:49
Well, not so much if hes got the Blood Drinker constantly restoring wounds, but what if you fluff your rolls? What if an enemy trooper then gets lucky and kills your general (if he is your general?). And even then, you have to roll a 6 on the one or two dice you get to make anything happen. I can see it being useful, but remember that the bearer gains the power dice, meaning your coach needs to be within 6" of him - a further limitation.

it's a cool idea though, even if you cant do it in the enemy phase. Perhaps used in a VC 'anti-magic' list?

Atrahasis
09-04-2008, 01:02
Heh, I saw the thread title and thought you were going to try and do something really broken with it.

Like take saves against the wounds, since the item doesn't prohibit them.

Yes, that's right, infinite power dice. Time to congratulate GW on another job well done :)

Oenghus
09-04-2008, 01:24
I'd argue that the word 'sacrifice' denies any attempt at a save. If they'd said 'risk' -- then yes. Sacrifice implies an exchange, rather than a gamble.

Lordmonkey
09-04-2008, 01:27
Heh, I saw the thread title and thought you were going to try and do something really broken with it.

Like take saves against the wounds, since the item doesn't prohibit them.

Yes, that's right, infinite power dice. Time to congratulate GW on another job well done :)


...the bearer 'sacrifices a wound...

Assuming there is no definition of 'sacrifice' that differs from 'inflicts on self':

Generates a dice, takes a wound, passes armour save
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, passes ward save.
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, fails ward save, passes regeneration save.
etc... etc... until:
Generates another dice, loses a wound, fails all 3 saves...
Casts IoN, heals the wound.

Jeez...

This should be FAQ'd to prevent saves. The Blood Drinker combo is a nice one, and makes sense.

T10
09-04-2008, 06:45
Heh, I saw the thread title and thought you were going to try and do something really broken with it.

Like take saves against the wounds, since the item doesn't prohibit them.

Yes, that's right, infinite power dice. Time to congratulate GW on another job well done :)

How so? You still only get the bonus power dice if you lose the wound. Or at least that is how I read it. If you save the the wound isn't lost and thus not sacrificed.

-T10

Revlid
09-04-2008, 07:00
Generates a dice, takes a wound, passes armour save
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, passes ward save.
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, fails ward save, passes regeneration save.
etc... etc... until:
Generates another dice, loses a wound, fails all 3 saves...
Casts IoN, heals the wound.

Jeez...


More like

Loses a wound, fails armour save, passes ward save, no wound taken, no dice generated.
Loses a wound, fails armour save, fails ward save, passes regeneration save, no wound taken, no dice generated.
etc... etc... until:
Loses a wound, fails all 3 saves, one dice generated.
Casts IoN, heals the wound.

Lordmonkey
09-04-2008, 07:24
How so? You still only get the bonus power dice if you lose the wound. Or at least that is how I read it. If you save the the wound isn't lost and thus not sacrificed.

-T10

It's all about interpretation. What i wrote was merely an example of how this can be Read As Written, if one were to take exploitation of the rules to the extreme. Obviously this is not the intention of the item. This, like most of the book, needs an FAQ to clarify it.

Atrahasis
09-04-2008, 10:51
The item doesn't say that the dice are only gained if the wound is lost.

I agree that no-one sane would intentionally create such an item, but as it stands, it's an infinite source of power for the vampire army.

The Clairvoyant
09-04-2008, 12:27
Assuming there is no definition of 'sacrifice' that differs from 'inflicts on self':

Generates a dice, takes a wound, passes armour save
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, passes ward save.
Generates a dice, loses a wound, fails armour save, fails ward save, passes regeneration save.
etc... etc... until:
Generates another dice, loses a wound, fails all 3 saves...
Casts IoN, heals the wound.

Jeez...

This should be FAQ'd to prevent saves. The Blood Drinker combo is a nice one, and makes sense.

The problem is, the only people who *need* the FAQ are the rules lawyers. The rest of us know how the rules work.
But it is funny when such things come up on these forums! :D

T10
09-04-2008, 13:08
The item doesn't say that the dice are only gained if the wound is lost.

I agree that no-one sane would intentionally create such an item, but as it stands, it's an infinite source of power for the vampire army.

And it doesn't say the power dice is gained if the wound is not lost. Wooh.

I'd be hard pressed to detail the proper procedure for this game mechanic called "sacrificing a wound".

-T10

EvC
09-04-2008, 13:21
Where wording is unclear, I tend to just go with the interpretation that seems less likely to be a loophole. It's a good rule for Warhammer and indeed life itself ;)

Spirit
09-04-2008, 22:34
Yay at least people like the combo. To be honest i'm not bothered about the coach, i use varghulfs. But 2 powerdice (and a powerstone on a vampire elsewhere) AND the hand of dust, is a nasty combo. The enemy never saves enough dispell to be sprung with 4 extra casting dice and a bound spell, so the 2d6 S5 usually gets in lol.

crimslain
11-04-2008, 20:42
I find it rather stupid that people look for anything to twist the rules in their favor. If you cant play the game in a fair/logical manor, then find another hobby, let us have fun in this hobby...........

_Lucian_
12-04-2008, 13:34
That is such a subjective sentance. If you cannot understand the essence of debate and desire to play the game fully, then find another topic, let us have fun in this forum........

athamas
12-04-2008, 14:01
there exists a nice combo with manfred using this item to generate 4 power dice, and another vamp with lifa magic casting healing spell that gives him all his would back... [you excahnge 2 power die for 4 effectivly!]

the_raptor
12-04-2008, 16:30
I find it rather stupid that people look for anything to twist the rules in their favor. If you cant play the game in a fair/logical manor, then find another hobby, let us have fun in this hobby...........

Who said people are twisting in their favour? Most theorycrafters I know do it for the fun of it and to stomp on rules abusers. Most of the time I find that following RAW screws me out of things that I should fairly be able to do. Also fair and logical are not synonyms. It is logical to figure out exactly what a rule means, and its implications and uses. Being ignorant of what a rule really means and just playing it "fairly" by gut instinct, is not logical.

Seriously, people in this thread are having a go at GW's poorly defined mechanics for this item (a common theme for VC magic items). Not putting forth serious suggestions as how to abuse it.


The problem is, the only people who *need* the FAQ are the rules lawyers. The rest of us know how the rules work.
But it is funny when such things come up on these forums! :D

Rubbish. Having an implied knowledge of how GW generally makes magic items work (and how they worked in previous editions), does not mean a FAQ is not needed. Not everyone who plays Warhammer is a multi-edition veteran. It would take a few sentences for GW to erase this whole contentious issue ("when a magic item causes additional wounds to a target or to the bearer or his unit, no saves of any kind are allowed unless explicitly stated").

Spirit
13-04-2008, 20:59
there exists a nice combo with manfred using this item to generate 4 power dice, and another vamp with lifa magic casting healing spell that gives him all his would back... [you excahnge 2 power die for 4 effectivly!]

Undead mage with forbidden lore cant take life magic..

DarkSpawnie
13-04-2008, 23:44
Even if he could the healing spells don't work on the undead.

athamas
13-04-2008, 23:57
ooo, i thought it was light you could not take...


wow,... will have to go look up what nasty things you can do with light now...

Spirit
14-04-2008, 00:22
Lol, scouting lord with "every unit within 12 takes d6S4 hits?" play a non khorne demon army and your laughing.

DarkSpawnie
14-04-2008, 00:27
D6 s5 don't you mean or d6 s6 against demons.