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Mercules
08-04-2008, 17:45
Okay all,

I watched a rather nice guy get slaughtered by my friend's Skaven. He played some 40k a while back and decided on Wood Elves for his army. He understands the rules fine, but need tactical advice(You know, like not moving forward into Warplightning range when he has a mass of archers with 6" more range.:rolleyes:

In any case a few of us are putting together WE lists to give him some ideas and to show him some tactics he can take advantage of. (That and WEs are my normal style of play... which is why I am playing Ogres:wtf:)

So I threw together a list that is mobile and dances around the enemy, which appeared to be what he was attempting to do in the different games he played, to see if I can help him.

Let me know your thoughts on it, remember it is Warband Rules.

Noble, Alter Kin @ 146
-The Hunter's Talon -Briarsheath -Sh -XHW

Glade Riders x5 @ 138
-Champ(Commander) -Mus

Glade Riders x5 @ 129
-Champ

Dryads x3 @ 36

Great Eagle @ 50

The Alter can move about on his own fairly quickly and still shoot. he is -2 to hit out in the open(-1 for the Briarsheath and -1 for being a lone figure) and as far as I can tell -4 in the woods(-2 Briarsheath in woods, -1 lone figure, -1 Soft Cover). Magic will hurt him though, so I'll have to dance him around at max range.

Glade Riders being Fast Cav can do all sorts of wonderful things like race past a unit and shoot at them from the flanks and then charge their flanks if need be. They can bait a unit into a charge, flee 3d6 through woods and then if they rally next turn they can move and shoot. They will be hard to catch but once caught they might be crushed.

The Dryads are point filler, but also make a good distraction charging 10" for 6 magical attacks. Maybe use them to target a character in the "Assassinate" Hidden Objective. They can charge in, 6 attacks at one character and if I loose them it is only 36 points. Then the Alter can pluck off any wounds left on the commander.

The great eagle is for that annoying "single warmachine" they can take, Cannons & Bolt thrower, or for a small shooting unit(I am seeing a bunch of 3-5 ranged models in a unit). Barring that it can march block or pick off wounded models by chasing them back through my higher US units.

So... ok hit and run army?

Malorian
09-04-2008, 18:42
The noble doesn't look the best but the rest is fine.

In small games the hail of doom arrow is king.

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 18:50
awww i was gonna say the hail of doom. Glade riders are abit over priced and i personally prefer a scout/wardancer type army. but hey its not abit list

Mercules
10-04-2008, 03:40
Well, I went with what I did because this Warbands campaign is very objective dominated.

If one player succeeds at their objective and the other does not then they take the territory automatically. Otherwise it goes down to VPs.

If you have looked at the Little War in the Warband rules you would notice that there are things like:
Assassinate - Kill the enemy commander
Invade - 1/3 of starting US, yes US not VP must be in the opponent starting zone
Capture the Colors - must capture a standard
Annihilate - 1/2 US of enemy must be destroyed/fleeing
Hold Territory - Control more quarters of the table, units must be at Min starting size(2 for cav)

So... my goal is to accomplish the Objective and prevent them from doing the same. For Assasinate I start off plunking arrows into his Commander with that silly noble. Invade I avoid and move around him. Colors I focus on one unit, destroy it and run. Hold Territory I scatter and avoid him. Annihilate will likely have me trying to split up and misdirect his forces while focusing on one.

I like Glade Riders because they are Fast Cav that ignore woods for movement. I can run circles around most troops all day and whittle them down. Mostly I prevent most of their objectives fairly easily by being evasive and mobile.

I did consider the Hail of Doom arrow or Bow of Loren to get lots of killy shots in, but with one of the objectives being Assassinate, even if I don't end up with that one, people seem to get antsy about protecting their Commander. I'm counting on fear being a factor for them.

Then again the guy I am trying to show a thing or two is into the big boom side of things. Bet he would love the Hail of Doom arrow.

Avaron
10-04-2008, 05:18
just look out for a few lists like the VC list of way too much summoning or as posted last week the Tzeentchian 6 magic dice list. its all turning and magic misstles till your dead. all backed up by 7 or 8 chosen with 3+ armor saves and a chariot.

KUMA
10-04-2008, 06:05
He cant have the alter hero because the cost of the unit champ would bring the total over 150. Honestly, wood elf warbands are the hotness with a ton of dryads and some glade guard

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 08:10
Im not 100% on the rules your using, however alter kindreds cant be the general? also minium unit size on dryads is 8. (Ignore these two statements if your campaing rules do)

What i would really worry about though is that all yours tactics rely on the fact that your Glade Riders wont die on the first turn.. If you were to come across any lvl 2mage/ multi-shot warmachine/10+archers it simply would be extremely difficult to achieve any of those objectives.

Mercules
10-04-2008, 10:51
He cant have the alter hero because the cost of the unit champ would bring the total over 150. Honestly, wood elf warbands are the hotness with a ton of dryads and some glade guard

The restriction is on heroes alone. Unit champs do not figure into the 150 points max restriction for warbands. You only total up the hero costs.


Im not 100% on the rules your using, however alter kindreds cant be the general? also minium unit size on dryads is 8. (Ignore these two statements if your campaing rules do)

Warband rules. Commander instead of General and it can be a hero OR a unit champion thus I can use the Alter who can not be Commander and pass that off to one of my Champions. Minimum size for units are thus(unless it is already less):
20x20mm - 25x25mm=3 models
25x50mm = 2
40x40mm+= 1



What i would really worry about though is that all yours tactics rely on the fact that your Glade Riders wont die on the first turn.. If you were to come across any lvl 2mage/ multi-shot warmachine/10+archers it simply would be extremely difficult to achieve any of those objectives.

Here is a question... unless I am rather stupid, how are my Glade Riders going to die on the first turn? There will be terrain somewhere on the board and I will likely set up behind/in it. I am also not stupid enough to plop myself in front arc of 10+ archers or in LoS of a warmachine at any point in the game. Mages are a concern, thus the Hunter's Talon and a unit of 3 Dryad. Exchanging 36 points for their wizard is favorable and it is only US 3 for the Objective purposes.

Mercules
10-04-2008, 11:01
just look out for a few lists like the VC list of way too much summoning or as posted last week the Tzeentchian 6 magic dice list. its all turning and magic misstles till your dead. all backed up by 7 or 8 chosen with 3+ armor saves and a chariot.

There is a VC list, but he went with the Varghulf(terror is a nightmare for some Warbands) so his raising ability is slightly less(still worrisome). The Varghulf itself will be a royal pain for this list, I'll need woods and to stick in the woods.

No Tzeentch... There is a Skaven list that managed two Engineers and 5 casting dice(plus those Warpstone bonus dice). That one is hard to deal with because he has 2 big blocks of troops with an Engineer in each and those wacky Skaven happily blast away at you even while you are in combat with their fellows.

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 11:40
Ok so you deploy your entire army behind a wood... you have to come out at some point. No matter how you think it will play out. Organ Guns, HBVG, Repeater Bolt thowers and other such terrors will be able to see almost the entire board if depolyed correctly. You will have to face them at some point unles you play a 2 hill, 2 wood, 1 building game.

I wish you the best, i feel you will need it

Mercules
10-04-2008, 12:17
Such "terrors" can only be present in a Warbands game as a single choice. You can have ONE war machine or chariot in your army. That is it. Notice the Great Eagle. So at most I will be facing -a- cannon, or -a- mortar, or -a- bolt thrower. That Alter Noble people are saying is so bad is -4 to hit whilst in the edge of a woods and can pick off repeater bolt thrower crew with that bow. Meanwhile the bolt thrower can't hit him.

because you can only have ONE warmachine there will be shadows behind terrain no matter how they deploy.

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 12:54
your noble is BS6, shooting at long range and picking out single targets with a -1modifier if i remember by book correctly. He should be hitting on 3's and killing on 4's. (against a human HBVG for example). 3 turns of shooting will provide 2 hits and 1 kill. The warmaching can still function fully untill it takes 2 casualties, even then it can function at a reduced rate. so by turn 5 if you are lucky you should have taken out 2. He would still get to fire on turn 6 as it is assumed they reloaded before the second casualty was lost. Sorry if i doubt the awesome sniping prowess of a single s3 shot per turn which still has to hit.

I'm not sure i ever indicated you would have to face 6 organ guns lol. even one would wipe out any of your unit which popped their pointy ears out from behind a piece of bark. Even a HE noble with reaver bow (a very popular choice) can pose more of a threat than your Crack Shot Sniper of Doom.

My opinion is my own. Obviously im unable to presuade you any different so i'll stop trying

Mercules
10-04-2008, 13:36
even one would wipe out any of your unit which popped their pointy ears out from behind a piece of bark.

So instead I go with a unit of glade guard for 3 points less. Now what? Oh, right... they die horrible to the Organ gun which can easily do 10 wounds to them as well.

Yes, I threw together a Treemonic Legion list for the warband but the person I am attempting to help wants elves in his army and LIKED the Glade Riders. So I put together a list using them. Gods forbid someone should play this hobby and use troops they like.:p

You have established that Organ Guns and such are nasty. Obvious statement. You never tried to convince me of anything. You stated you thought my choices were poor because of such things being fielded and then completely failed to give ANY advice or alternatives. You have stated that my units would die horribly to such a war machine if they stepped out of the woods. So what unit would you advise I use that won't suffer the same fate?

At least with the Eagle and fast cav I have a chance of getting around the main force and to that warmachine quickly so that I can send several units after it at once and while loosing one, clean up the organ gun's crew and then deal with the rest of the army.

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 13:46
The point im making isnt that you have a weak list. More that you have spent over half of your points on 10 riders with a 6+ save. Personally you can do as well with 1 unit and i dont understand why pay so many points for alter kindred if you plan to skulk about in a bush sniping chars? there is 35 points to save there which could contribute to your list as a whole. I understand you dont want to use the Hail of Doom and that is fine, but i feel it weakens you list. 8 dryads come in at a whoping 96points... they can hot foot it across the board fairly quickly and are far more resistant to enemy shooting (T4, 5+ ward, skirmishers). And will pack more punch when they arrive.

My main concern is i feel your army lacks substance, nothing which could get shot at by 10 handgunners and still walk out the other side not bloody and bruised. Or take a D6 S4 hits and not be a smear across the land scape

Also Glade gaurd have a 30 inch range, compared with the Organs 24. Plus you would have enough bows to force your opponent to come to you rather than vice versa. And an organ gun would be very lucky to kill 10, considering it only has a 1 in 6 chance of getting 10 hits, then not rolling a single 1 in 10 wounds.

Mercules
10-04-2008, 14:39
Well, I don't plan to skulk in the bush shooting characters. I have an -option- to skulk in the bush shooting characters. I can also charge them and use my 4-5 attacks to kill them off if need be. I built the list to give a lot of tactical flexibility(maybe too much). Knowing my opponents, if I plunk an arrow into their caster on the first turn they will probably spend too much time chasing down that Alter who can move rather fast. Originally it was a Noble on an Elven Steed but then he looses the 360 deg LoS so the Alter keeps his speed and his LoS.

I have considered Bow of Loren for 4 shots from him. I just have this gut feeling that "sniping" at their commander or a Wizard will throw their game into chaos, the threat will be more potent than the reality would ever turn out to be.

When this downhearted soul was blown to pieces by a Skaven army(despite advice from the Skaven player during the game that he was moving into range of the Skaven magic/Ratling Gun) he was about ready to hang up Warhammer and go back to 40k. I advised adding Dryads(much like you) but he wasn't very enthused about that. I chalk some of it up to not knowing the power of them.

So I built a list using the units he really liked, the Glade Riders, but including other options to show him the desirability of them. 3 Dryads, to show him that even 3 of them will pound a foe on the charge. An Eagle, to demonstrate march blocking and for picking off single targets/warmachines.

Personally, I would have probably gone with a Branchwraith, a unit of Dryads, a unit of Glade Guard, and a unit of Treemen. I like beatsticks like Treemen but I also like Fast Cav myself so maybe Dryads, Glade Riders, 2 Treemen. Hmmmm... Maybe I'll push him towards something like that... BRB with a list.

Mercules
10-04-2008, 14:49
How about this:

Glade Riders x5 -Champion(Commander)

Dryads x8 -Champ

Glade Guard x10 -Champ

Tree Kin x2

Harder hitting and tougher units, Okay ranged attacks, and plenty of speed? I can also show him the value of the Forest Spirits.

_Lucian_
11-04-2008, 09:25
Well if its an educational army he would need to learn an unfortunatly harsh lesson, using alot of glade riders doesnt work (to the best of my knowledge/experience) I much prefer the second list you wrote up. It has alittle bit of everything and enough shooting to pose a threat. If he still wants to use glade riders try introduce him into wildriders which are generally seen as far more formidable.

If your opponent was willing to give up on warhammer completely because he got badly beaten by a skaven army i would let him go. IMO if you like warhammer its because you like warhammer, win or lose.