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Lord_Sanguinius
19-04-2005, 23:47
ok, i'm posting this thread to clarify something, cause i'm not sure if i'm right or wrong about this:

From what i understand very early once the emporer came to power shortly before the dark crusade began and the horus heresy. i know that the emporer is one of the most powerful psykers to live, but i'm having a hard time understanding this. when he threw the strongest bolt of psychic energy with all his strength at horus the emporer was crippled and horus was dead. his soul dwelled somewhere in the warp and they built the golden throne to sustain him and keep him alive and somehow his soul, lost somewhere in the warp can link to the golden throne and his physical body. correct me if i'm wrong.

Minister
20-04-2005, 00:31
Circa M.-7 (~7000BC): the one who would become the Emperor is born, a result of the last of the old Shamans combining their psychic energy to create one soul which would be a light against the awakening gods of Chaos (awakening as far as Terra was concerned, in that the human race was begining to attract their interest. The Shamen had, untill that time, been reincarnating, but they found that the souls of their bretheren were being lost).

Up to M.29-M.30: The Emperor walks among the populace. Insert various claims about him being the truth behind various ledgends/religions (we shall say Merlin and leave it at that, yes?).

~M.4-M.20: The Dark Age of Technology (refers to the darkness of the soul, in terms of the advancment of tech itself it was a golden age, and some refer to it as such. No-one said it wasn't confusing). Much colonisation of other worlds and the first Alien Wars.

~M.20-M29: The Age of Stryfe, in which human civilisation crumbles and incidences of psyker activity and warp storms increase dramatically. This event is a combination of a large number of factors, which are secondary to this discussion. (Sufice to say that the Fall of the Eldar and unchecked psyker populations are factors.)

M.29-M.30: The Emperor begins his Great Crusade, first uniting Terra (at this point he creates the Primachs, who are scattered throughout the galaxy by the Chaos gods), and then working his way out. Space Marines are founded at this time. Over the course of the Crusade, the Primachs are discovered,, chief amongst which was Horus.

M.30: The Horus Heresy breaks out across the Imperium. Bad stuff happens, the details of which are another matter entirley. What matters is that Horus, filled with the power of the Chaos Gods, faces off with the Emperor on the bridge of Horus' Battlebarge over Terra at the closing act. The Emperor kills Horus (the detail is disputed, but it certainly took a lot of psychic clout whether it was by mind blast or force weapon). The Emperor himself, however, is mortally wounded. Rojal Dorn (Primach of the Imperial fists) brings his body back to the Imperial Palace. With the Emperor's will unable to hold his body together, the Golden Throne is constructed (it is possible that the Emperor ordered its construction, or else it was modified from some other technology. Records are lost).

M.30-M.41: The Age of the Imperium, in which the Emperor is immobile and (after the first short while) unable to speak with his subjects. The High Lords rule in his name. The Emperor's soul exists within the Warp still, tethered to his body andengaged in constant battle with the Chaos gods. There also, although it is allmostunknown to the Imperium, exists a fragment of the Emperor's soul known as the Star Child, which may one day become a true Warp God when the Emperor meets his final death and his mortal soul becomes one with the Warp (or may not, so don't try unpluging him to find out).

DantesInferno
20-04-2005, 07:33
Circa M.-7 (~7000BC): the one who would become the Emperor is born, a result of the last of the old Shamans combining their psychic energy to create one soul which would be a light against the awakening gods of Chaos (awakening as far as Terra was concerned, in that the human race was begining to attract their interest. The Shamen had, untill that time, been reincarnating, but they found that the souls of their bretheren were being lost).

Up to M.29-M.30: The Emperor walks among the populace. Insert various claims about him being the truth behind various ledgends/religions (we shall say Merlin and leave it at that, yes?).

I'd say take this with a grain of salt. It is very very old background which has seemingly been deliberately left out of 40k background since 1st edition. It also seems to me to be a rather dumb theory which has logical flaws, seems inconsistent with current background (cf. Lorgar - the Emperor doesn't seem to think of himself as a god) and which seems to me to take much of the irony out of the Emperor's unwilling deification. I mean, it isn't as ironic if the Emperor is incarcerated in the Golden Throne and deified to be the god of Humanity, in express violation of his wishes if he was indeed a god after all.

And, if he had 37 millennia of observing human society, surely he would not have made the appalling failures of judgement which he did during his brief tenure as the living Emperor of Mankind? But that, I suppose, is a question for another thread.

TheSonOfAbbadon
20-04-2005, 18:58
And, if he had 37 millennia of observing human society, surely he would not have made the appalling failures of judgement which he did during his brief tenure as the living Emperor of Mankind? But that, I suppose, is a question for another thread.

The Emperor's only human... oh no, wait...

Eversor
20-04-2005, 19:23
Since I feel like nitpicking and being irritating:
- It's Emperor, not Emporer
- The plural of shaman is shaman
- It's strife, not stryfe
- It's primarch, not primach
- It's Rogal Dorn, not Rojal Dorn

And DantesInferno... Just because the background is old doesn't mean it's not correct.

TheSonOfAbbadon
20-04-2005, 20:37
If it's replaced [eg: Horus vs. Emperor battle moved from bunker to battle barge] then the old fluff is incorrect, if it's not, then the fluff is true.

DantesInferno
20-04-2005, 23:21
And DantesInferno... Just because the background is old doesn't mean it's not correct.

Yes, but I would argue that the fact that the 37 millennia old shaman background has been seemingly deliberately omitted would show it is no longer a part of the background. They've had about 15 years or so to put it back in if they thought it was an intergral part of the background, but they have chosen not to. I mean, the Squats have been mentioned as living a lot more recently than the Emperor-shaman thing.

Besides, I would argue that it is indeed inconsistent with the picture we get of the Emperor during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Firstly, he doesn't want to be worshipped as a god. Surely he wouldn't mind if he were indeed a divine being. Secondly, he has such obvious failures of command which anyone who has been observing human society for 37 millennia for so long would surely not have made. Hell, he only needed to read Machiavelli to know what he was doing was suicidally stupid. It begs the question, did he just have his head stuck in the sand for 37 millennia?

Minister
21-04-2005, 00:12
Since I feel like nitpicking and being irritating:
- It's Emperor, not Emporer
- The plural of shaman is shaman
- It's strife, not stryfe
- It's primarch, not primach
- It's Rogal Dorn, not Rojal Dorn

And DantesInferno... Just because the background is old doesn't mean it's not correct.
It was half one in the morning. Such things are to be expected.

angelspast
21-04-2005, 01:44
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/emperor.shtml

should help ya some

Eversor
21-04-2005, 10:47
They've had about 15 years or so to put it back in if they thought it was an intergral part of the background, but they have chosen not to. <snip>
Sure, GW doesn't print it any more. But since the older books were first and better written, I go by them ;) Fight the revisionism!


Besides, I would argue that it is indeed inconsistent with the picture we get of the Emperor during the Great Crusade and the Heresy. Firstly, he doesn't want to be worshipped as a god. Surely he wouldn't mind if he were indeed a divine being. <snip>
Nowhere does it state that the Emperor was a divine being. The religions started in his name have all been started by others. His soul was a composite of all the shaman and he was an extremely powerful psyker, but he was still "just a man".

As for his "mistakes", those are what makes the story interesting. Basic dramaturgy ;)

EDIT: @Minister: I wrote that reply at like 3 in the morning, so I was a bit more grumpy than I should have been... Sorry ;)

DantesInferno
21-04-2005, 14:12
Sure, GW doesn't print it any more. But since the older books were first and better written, I go by them ;) Fight the revisionism!

Well, that's up to you. I was merely trying to point out that the shaman-theory is probably not in line with the current version of the 40k background, so claiming it is still canon is perhaps misleading. My own person hatred of this theory probably played a part too. But if you prefer it, by all means accept it.



Nowhere does it state that the Emperor was a divine being. The religions started in his name have all been started by others. His soul was a composite of all the shaman and he was an extremely powerful psyker, but he was still "just a man".

As for his "mistakes", those are what makes the story interesting. Basic dramaturgy ;)


Splitting hairs on the nature of "divine", aren't we? If he was the immortal composite of a group of Shaman, he was certainly not "just a man". Whether or not he was a god in the 40k sense (warp presence), he was still, according to this theory a supernatural being.

And I agree that the mistakes make the story interesting, but I don't see how the Emperor could stuff up so badly if he had been observing human society and government for 37 millennia......

Justice And Rule
21-04-2005, 16:12
Well, that's up to you. I was merely trying to point out that the shaman-theory is probably not in line with the current version of the 40k background, so claiming it is still canon is perhaps misleading. My own person hatred of this theory probably played a part too. But if you prefer it, by all means accept it.

What would make more sense? That he was simply born with knowledge of just about everything? ;)

Really, he lived at least a few hundreds of years in the current fluff without any sort of aging, I don't think it's that out there to look at the older stuff. I mean, we still have the "Star Child" stuff, which got a vague mention in the 3rd Edition book as a cult but we are oft to still believe that's part of the fluff still.

And hell, weirder things have happened. :P



Splitting hairs on the nature of "divine", aren't we? If he was the immortal composite of a group of Shaman, he was certainly not "just a man". Whether or not he was a god in the 40k sense (warp presence), he was still, according to this theory a supernatural being.

And I agree that the mistakes make the story interesting, but I don't see how the Emperor could stuff up so badly if he had been observing human society and government for 37 millennia......

I don't think you get what he's saying. He was still born the same way as all of us, even if he was a composite of all those shamans. He understood his own mortality, even though he was the model of perfection. Remember he nearly died fighting Horus.

And the failures are your own opinion. I don't want to start the debate again here, but you honestly didn't hold up the burden of proof on him. I say for all his wisdom, he got a bad break.

Minister
21-04-2005, 20:11
Remember, gods in the 40K universe can die. Look at the Eldar ones, for example. Admitedly, it's bloody dificult if they have any number of followers left, but still...

DantesInferno
22-04-2005, 00:26
What would make more sense? That he was simply born with knowledge of just about everything? ;)

Really, he lived at least a few hundreds of years in the current fluff without any sort of aging, I don't think it's that out there to look at the older stuff. I mean, we still have the "Star Child" stuff, which got a vague mention in the 3rd Edition book as a cult but we are oft to still believe that's part of the fluff still.

And hell, weirder things have happened. :P

Well, if we disregard the 37 millennia old theory, we know that the Emperor lived a millennium or so without aging. I don't think that is out of the realms of possibility for an extraordinarily gifted psyker, using all kinds of genentic augmentation could live for that long. Even the Space Marines of today, with their degraded gene-seed can still live that long (cf Dante). 37 millennia, on the other hand, is a lot more difficult to swallow.

And I'd also like to distinguish the "Star Child" stuff from the shaman theory. The question of if the Emperor is already dead, and if not, what would happen if the Throne were to be unplugged his raised in many places in recent times, the Inquisitor rulebook for example, without being specifically referred to as the "Star Child". However, the concept that the Emperor is a 37 millennia old conglomeration of shaman has been, IMO, deliberately dropped.

But who says he had knowledge of just about everything, anyway? I think it suits the background better if he is just an exceptional psyker, a warlord with a grip of genetics. But he was definately not omniscient, anyway. It's clear he didn't really have any idea of the corrupting power of Chaos, which is odd if he was specially created to fight them.



I don't think you get what he's saying. He was still born the same way as all of us, even if he was a composite of all those shamans. He understood his own mortality, even though he was the model of perfection. Remember he nearly died fighting Horus.

And the failures are your own opinion. I don't want to start the debate again here, but you honestly didn't hold up the burden of proof on him. I say for all his wisdom, he got a bad break.


"He was still born the same way as all of us, even if he was a composite of all those shamans" Huh? I don't know about you, but I was born the old-fashioned way. Somehow the Emperor's creation, according to this theory, seems somewhat different to a natural birth. I hardly see how a conglomeration of the souls of thousands of Shaman could ever possibly be termed "just a man". According to this theory the Emperor is the New Man, at the least a supernatural being and at the most a proto-god.

And yes, the extent of the Emperor's mistakes are indeed my own opinion, but I think that it is a pretty valid one, supported by the background . I don't see how you could possibly term him the "model of perfection" though. In any case, if you want to debate it further, by all means resurrect the "Was the Emperor a good leader" thread, and hopefully we can bash it out once and for all....