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Kahadras
08-04-2008, 23:03
My army has been sitting around for a couple of months now in a partialy finnished state. I've played plenty of games with it now and I'm planning for a last push up to 2000 points (and to get more of it painted). My eventual 2000 point plan looks something like this...

General + Sword of Power, Holy Relic, full plate, shield and Griffon = 380p
Captain + Doomfire Ring, full plate, shield, lance and Pegasus = 144p
Battle Wizard + extra level and the Rod of Power = 130p
Warrior Priest + the Silver Horn, light armour and shield = 129p

19 Swordsmen + FC = 139p
+ 5 Handgunners = 40p
20 Swordsmen + FC = 145p
+ 5 Handgunners = 40p
10 Crossbowmen = 80p
6 Knights + FC and Warbanner = 203p

5 Pistoliers + musician = 97p
5 Pistoliers + musician = 97p
Cannon = 100p

HBVG = 110p
Bronzio's Galloper Gun = 165p

= 1999p

The basic plan is to use a lot of manuverability to make life difficult for my opponant. I'll set up a center containing the two infantry blocks with the Crossbowmen, cannon and HBVG in support. I'll use my Pistoliers and Captain to marchblock and harrass enemy units as they move forward. The Galloper gun can be used to manuver into a position on the flank where it can threaten multiple units. My knights will provide support for my Pistoliers while my general uses his maneuverability to either support units with his leadership or to help him get stuck in where he's needed. 3 strength 6 and 4 strength 5 attacks on the charge is nothing to sniff at and could easily tilt the balance of the combat in my favour (he also causes terror as well which is a nice advantage)

I decided to try to go for a fairly strong magic phase (of course it won't win against a magic heavy or magic lock down army). My plan was to use multiple bound spells to draw out my opponants dispel dice. If my opponant really doesn't want any of my bound spells going off he'll have to devote at least 3 dispel dice to stop them (and even that won't be enough most of the time) and the Rod of Power should nicely support my single Battle Wizard's spells. Conversly if my opponant is going magic heavy I can 'turtle up' by pushing power dice into the Rod of Power to boost the number of dispel dice in my pool.

Kahadras

RavenBloodwind
09-04-2008, 03:36
I'm kind of struggling to see this work as well as you expect it to.

The temptation to get your general too far from the army to help may be rather overwhelming so be disciplined. Also he'll have a sizable target painted on his (or his griffon's) chest and his ward save won't save the flying lion.

Pegasus captain seems generally okay although Aldred's casket might be very helpful with your rather underwhelming magic phase. Bound spell is fine as well but could be carried by sparky the warrior priest.

I'm also scared to show up to a battle without at least one dispel scroll and I doubt I'm alone in this.

The troops seem generally fine in their build although 24-25 seems a more popular infantry size.

I don't really see a reason not to make the crossbows a detachment (or 2) given you have your minimum core covered.

Knights are fine.

I'm continually underwhelmed with the HBVG but that's just me, it certainly packs a psychological punch if nothing else.

I'd think about a unit of outriders in place of the galloper gun as this unit can also move to an advantageous position and then (unlike the galloper gun) shoot the living hell out of a unit without worrying about a misfire.

Okay, that's not much help but I'd really work through some games with this build and see if it's really performing up to your expectation.

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 09:29
I agree on the dispel scroll front, especially since your runnning a lord on griffon. I dont understand this sentance "I decided to try to go for a fairly strong magic phase"
I would say you have a very weak magic phase with most turns the silver horn being useless and very few prayers effective untill turn 3. The first 2-3 turns of magic are often the most cruicial imo and thats when you have simple a doomfire ring and a few power dice to do anything constructive- more so defensive :S. Why not swap the rod of power for some dispels and make it abit more tangible.
On the suriviabilty matter a warrior priest with light arm and shield? That isnt much defense for a paltry WS4 T4 char costing in at 129pts. If he is meant to help bolster your centre i would expect slightly more defensive capabilities. Apart from that i actually like armies like this, always fun to play with/against as they are not to overpowered and it takes alot of clever generalmanship to play effectively.

Kahadras
09-04-2008, 21:19
I dont understand this sentance "I decided to try to go for a fairly strong magic phase"


Depends how you class magic. The general concensus is that you run your list either as a full on magical powerhouse (wizard lord + a couple of wizards + magic items) or just go purely defencive (a couple of basic wizards + as many dispel scrolls as they can jam into their army). I wanted to try for a different kind of magic approach; basicaly one that applies pressure in the mid rather than the early game and was reliable on top of that.


Why not swap the rod of power for some dispels and make it abit more tangible.

I'm personaly against the idea of dispel scrolls. IMHO people rely on them far to much and against a purely defencive or a magic spam army (like TK) they are a bit of a waste of time. As I've already said I prefer the flexibility of the Rod of Power over a one hit counter.


On the suriviabilty matter a warrior priest with light arm and shield? That isnt much defense for a paltry WS4 T4 char costing in at 129pts. If he is meant to help bolster your centre i would expect slightly more defensive capabilities.

I had to drop the heavy armour to allow my army to come in under 2000 points. Even with light armour, shield and hand weapon (4+ armour save in combat) he's still got a WS of 4, toughness of 4, is protected by a unit (look out, sir), has spells to heal himself and give himself a ward save and has a unit champion to accept challenges.


I don't really see a reason not to make the crossbows a detachment (or 2) given you have your minimum core covered.


Having a missile unit that doesn't have to deploy within 3 inches of it's parent unit is always useful IMO. Plus it can be deployed seperatly giving me an extra unit with which to force my opponants hand during deployment (something that's really important to me).


I'm continually underwhelmed with the HBVG but that's just me, it certainly packs a psychological punch if nothing else.

I've used it quite a bit recently. It's worked wonders in many games I've played but is a bit hit and miss. When it does work though it can cause masses of damage (as some High Elves can attest to).


Okay, that's not much help but I'd really work through some games with this build and see if it's really performing up to your expectation.

I've already been using the majority of this list in games already and it's pretty much working as I hope it would. All I need to add is the General, the Warrior Priest and the Galloper gun (in for fun and interest more than anything else).

Kahadras

Uriain
10-04-2008, 04:13
The only thing that I am really leary about in your list is the general. I have a friend who plays empire and he takes a Arch lector on foot with a GW/Holy relic/dawn armour. Its a really good combo

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 09:31
I wanted to try for a different kind of magic approach; basicaly one that applies pressure in the mid rather than the early game and was reliable on top of that.

Kahadras

I personally find your idea acceptable but far from 'strong'. Lets say 'PLague' or some other nasty "must stop" spell was cast on a 16, a would personally be gratefull for a single scroll (each to there own)



I had to drop the heavy armour to allow my army to come in under 2000 points. Even with light armour, shield and hand weapon (4+ armour save in combat) he's still got a WS of 4, toughness of 4, is protected by a unit (look out, sir), has spells to heal himself and give himself a ward save and has a unit champion to accept challenges.
Kahadras

WS 4, T4, 4+ save: whats any different from a black orc? without being in a challenge most units such as swordmasters could allocate attacks on him and kill him in 1 round far too easily.


The approach of forcing your opponent into pressure during the mid game may work well but lets say your characters get killed/assisinated/run from the table on turn 3-4. Have they really had a chance to use those bound items you have spent precious points on? As we have discussed your characters are quite far from 'resiliant' most of which i could see dropping very early in tourny style play. It might only be me but my opponents have numerous character assisinator units so i always make sure they are either well defended or well armoured

Kahadras
10-04-2008, 17:14
I personally find your idea acceptable but far from 'strong'. Lets say 'PLague' or some other nasty "must stop" spell was cast on a 16, a would personally be gratefull for a single scroll (each to there own)

Each to his own. If my opponant has been lucky enough to get off a powerful spell then I don't really feel I need to slap down an auto answer to it. If he paid the points, got in range, rolled the dice and I didn't do anything about it before it came down to him getting the spell off then I'm OK with that. Just like my opponant is OK with the fact that my cannon takes out his Dragon if I roll well.


WS 4, T4, 4+ save: whats any different from a black orc?

And Black Orcs aren't tough?


without being in a challenge most units such as swordmasters could allocate attacks on him and kill him in 1 round far too easily.


Lets be careful here with the example given. Swordmasters are one of the most powerful offencive infantry units in the game so saying 'most units like' pretty much bolis down to a handful (if that) and if I'm stupid enough to let them get into close combat with him then it's probably my own fault if he dies.


As we have discussed your characters are quite far from 'resiliant' most of which i could see dropping very early in tourny style play. It might only be me but my opponents have numerous character assisinator units so i always make sure they are either well defended or well armoured

Could you provide some examples of assasinator units and how you'd use the to drop my characters (bar charging them with Swordsmasters of course)?

Kahadras

_Lucian_
11-04-2008, 10:17
Furies, Hounds, Marauders horsemen with flails, Slaanesh Spawn. All of which i have in my tourny army. (infact multiple units of marauder and hounds - the maruaders cost a whopping 81 points and are WS4 S5 on the charge)

Other armies:

Tomb Kings - Scorpians
Orcs -Wolf Riders, Squigs
Empire - 5 knights, Pistoliers,
High Elves - Eagle, Elyrian Reavers,
Lizard Men - Terradons,
Woodelves - alter kindred, Warhawks, Gladeriders
Dark Elves - Harpies, Dark Riders

Every army has atleast 1 unit which is cheaper than 100points (or is fast enough to charge in flee and then outrun most persuits for cheaper or worth sacrifcing to kill your opponents only wizard). My example of swordsmen wasnt as much an assainator unit, more a unit you will come across which in a normal fight could wipe the floor with him.

Black orcs tough? well let me think yes i suppose they are for a rank and file troop? How hard though is it to kill 2 black orcs though? Its something the champion of a unit of knights could do on his own. and 2 black orcs weigh in at 26 points, not 129.

I dont really think your analogy of: you cant stop my cannon ball, i cant stop your spell is correct. Clearly you could stop his spell, it is possible to do so. him stopping your cannon, not (bar shooting it etc, however not same ball park).

Assasinator units work as go: Any cheap unit under/around 100points charges into a unit with a poorely armoured/essential character. Most unit may only throw out 3-4 attacks against him at ideally S4. There is around a 30% chance they will kill him, if they lose they flee 3D6 as apose to his 2D6, even if caught that unit is normally isolated and not in a position to threaten your army. With 80% of my armies i have 2-3 units i can throw into my opponents rank and file to kill off weak characters such as t3 2 wound wizards. Other characters such as BSB and Priests are also the focus of alot of my attacks normally due to easy victory points and bonus effects they have on there parent units.

Atrahasis
11-04-2008, 13:44
I like the idea of a Griffon general, I really do. I'm painting a griffon as we speak.

However, the griffon is one of THE WORST monstrous mounts in the game. T5W4 with no save will see the general on foot to even paltry missile fire/magic and if the general dies first, then the griffon can't even negate ranks.

Your magic phase is very weak. I never take scrolls either (and have finished top 20 at a GT final with 3 dispel dice with my dogs of war) but your army doesn't have enough troops to weather a strong magic phase long enough to hit back in my opinion. I always take the rod, but relying on it at 2000 points is foolhardy. I usually aim for 6 power and 6 dispel dice with the rod, plus a bound spell or two. Priest prayers and the Silver Horn don't count to this total because they're very situational, only coming into play in turns 4 onward if then.


Your infantry blocks are too small and lack any close combat support detachments. Even a gnoblar with a pea shooter can reduce your rank bonus, and Empire live and die by static res.

I'd drop the volley gun or the galloper (or both) and beef up the battle line. Anyone with more than a smattering of missile fire or magic could cut the heart out of your army turn 1.

Your character choices, while interesting don't really support each other. I'd drop the captain and get another level 2 wizard, or if you really want to hold onto the second flying character, drop the warrior priest for the same.

Marwynn
11-04-2008, 17:20
I'll second (or third) the call about your Core units.

They seem awfully small. Granted I'm used to seeing 25-30 sized units of Swordsmen but you will lose a rank bonus from some random hits. One or two guys dead and you've effectively lost +1CR.

Kahadras
11-04-2008, 18:05
I dont really think your analogy of: you cant stop my cannon ball, i cant stop your spell is correct. Clearly you could stop his spell, it is possible to do so. him stopping your cannon, not (bar shooting it etc, however not same ball park).

I'm merely pointing out that my feelings are that you do have an opportunity to stop his spell, with your dispel dice. If the spell does get though (by good rolling on your opponants part) then you take it on the chin. Just like if your opponant rolls well with his warmachine you take it on the chin.


Assasinator units work as go: Any cheap unit under/around 100points charges into a unit with a poorely armoured/essential character. Most unit may only throw out 3-4 attacks against him at ideally S4. There is around a 30% chance they will kill him, if they lose they flee 3D6 as apose to his 2D6, even if caught that unit is normally isolated and not in a position to threaten your army.

That is, of course, based on the assumption that the units will make it into combat with the poorly armed character. The unit has to get across the table resulting in attrition due to enemy fire which is already a problem for a small cheap unit to do. A couple of casualties can cause a panic check, any more and the unit can end up unable to complete it's job. The unit also has to bypass any units that I deploy to drive of small maneuverable units (such as Pistoliers). The unit then has to charge in and gets its 30% chance to kill him. Then it has to take any attacks back then it gets the chance to run away.

Not to say that the tactic isn't valid but it's not as easy as it sounds and there are plenty of ways for an opponant to counter such a stratergy. Of far more concern, IMHO, is a 'grind' unit that can keep throwing attacks at the character turn after turn.


However, the griffon is one of THE WORST monstrous mounts in the game. T5W4 with no save will see the general on foot to even paltry missile fire/magic and if the general dies first, then the griffon can't even negate ranks.

Agreed. I was mainly planning to use terrain to screen my Griffon or deal with any major missile threats before flying him around. Basicaly he can set up behind cover and threaten to ambush advancing enemy units.


Your infantry blocks are too small and lack any close combat support detachments. Even a gnoblar with a pea shooter can reduce your rank bonus, and Empire live and die by static res.


Probably true. I was thinking of upgrading the blocks to 25 strong at the expence of the Galloper gun (it was in there only for fun in the first place). Really at the end of the day though I don't feel that the 'heart' of my army is anywhere near my infantry blocks. They're really there to take on what makes it past the shooting/maneuverable part of my army.

Kahadras

_Lucian_
12-04-2008, 13:59
Hey please please please shoot my hounds and marauders, then my D.Ogres, Chariots, Chosen Knights and Mins can get you. Plus with a 14-20inch charge you are likely to get only 1 turn to stop them. But then again i suppose with your 'strong' magic phase you could always blast them with magic missiles :)

Kahadras
13-04-2008, 15:52
Hey please please please shoot my hounds and marauders, then my D.Ogres, Chariots, Chosen Knights and Mins can get you. Plus with a 14-20inch charge you are likely to get only 1 turn to stop them. But then again i suppose with your 'strong' magic phase you could always blast them with magic missile

Well if your hounds and marauders are in front of your D. Ogres, Chariots, Chosen Knights etc I'm going to have to shoot them first anyway. Maybe I should use my Warmachines to blast your knights and Ogres while my missile troops go after your lightly armoured hounds and marauders.

Kahadras