PDA

View Full Version : Ethreal; Viability?



Plaxor
09-04-2008, 07:35
With the new VC book I was looking through and wondering how viable an army Based off the rules for it. Now I know that not much has changed in that area, but with the addition of skeletal steeds counting as ethereal (for movement) and cairn wraiths now being a unit rather than a hero choice.

Now my first investigation into this was with the black knights. With their 8in unbarded movement it would seem like a great idea to maybe run five or six of them for flanking movements through terrain! now. The thing is, they of course cannot charge if they can't see a unit beforehand, so it would be beneficial to keep a wizard nearby with BOA (first impression was my old way of doing things, with a necro on a nightmare in the unit, fairly impossible). So the only way this is realistically possible, without having to jump out of the terrain first would be either to not be completely hidden behind the terrain or to have a vamp on a hellsteed making them dance.

Now with that kind of idea, I thought about having a large, scary unit with a bsb. 10 models with full command, couldn't decide on barding, figured they wouldn't get shot at so is it worth the movement? A wight king bsb. Now deciding banners, I thought, well if I take the HOC on my babysitting vamp then I really won't have to worry about taking banner of the barrows or the strigos standard. so the question is, what two banners should I take. I always liked the idea of taking the screaming banner, and the banner of dead legion. This unit would have US 40. Is it worth it however? I mean, certainly there might be times when I scare my opponent off and I'm left standing in the open. Then there is the possibility that if I maneuver right, and my opponent doesn't account for my ethereal horsemen then I could go on the side of his line and cause a massive panick (charging one unit and it fleeing, resulting in the potential 'accident' charges of two more units followed by the natural huge panic of everyone running around) Although, the thing that disgruntles me most about this unit is it's dependancy on cover, most games I play we will set up the terrain ourselves. And the fact that I have to take a babysitter vamp to make it effective, who might actually fail in his mission and leave me screwed. Also I wonder how valuable a wight BSB is in the unit?

Anyways I kept thinking and started looking at the Cairn Wraiths. Now their move is only 6", not bad, but certainly not what can be acheived with black knights. They have rather awesome killing power, and as skirmishers can go whatever direction they choose and cause terror, lovely terror for my common battles against OK. If a vampire is given spectral form he can wander with them, now, my question is, if I choose to make my vamp a bsb with this unit, could I take a magic banner? I assume no. I kind of liked the idea of a regular vamp helping by being banner-boy, but that seems fairly worthless in reality without a magic banner really, it's 175 points for a guy who isn't much better at combat than a regular wraith, and 1 extra combat res. The advantage is however, he is a level one caster, which I would only want one spell on him (dance) so likelihood of getting this is small. now raising zombies for helping charge later? maybe. More realistically, it would be to run a vampire lord with dark acolyte and avatar of death with the unit. Or would it be just beneficial to just scratch the idea alltogether and just do a hellsteed vamp caster?
Personally I would like to run a unit of 10, It is one of the scariest units I can think of, it isn't subject to frenzy and it can move through whatever it wants. Terror is always a bonus for irritating things,as is skirmishers, and I know, if I ran the unit I would be dead fighting a daemon legion or tree army, but I rarely see those.

Just curious about peoples thoughts!

Arnizipal
09-04-2008, 08:25
Adding a non-wight character to Black Knights will make them lose their ethereal move (as only wight kings can get skeletal steeds as mounts).

Also, barding doess't impede movement on ethereal steeds. :)

Lordmonkey
09-04-2008, 08:29
Your could add a mounted Wight King to the black knight unit, and give him the Book of Arkhan. That would make for a very effective (and surprising!) flanker that can still move as if ethereal!

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 10:04
Good idea with the Book of arkhan. I might try that one..

Personally i woult chose 5 with wight lord. Then save the points for some wraiths. I've run two units of 6 in recent games and all i can say is that they really really really can be overpowered. Unless your opponent comes to battle with lots of magic weapons you will litterly walk unapposed through his lines. I cant understand how they are so cheap. 6 guys chuck out 18attacks, even hitting on 4's (without HoC) thats 9hits. Against say orc's you will end up with 6 kills. Thats an auto-win barring a magic banner or magic weidling hero. If he does have a hero, simply kill it, then move onto the unit. Ok you might take a wound of two but thats what is for IoN. I have yet to come against anything they cant handle bar ironbreakers. Although im sure my opponents will catch on, or ill simply stop taking it as it makes you feel dirty and cheap

Arnizipal
09-04-2008, 11:36
Against a fully ranked unit you need to get 5 kills otherwise you lose though.
Even flanking or rear charging won't do you much good with wraiths as they're skirmishers.

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 11:57
Thats why it works out at 6 wounds. Which is a win without HoC, ASF, re-rolls. and against a T4 opponent. Like i said a static unit of 6 wraiths wins every round of combat unless its against T4 opponents with 3+saves and 3ranks, outnumber and banner.

Dryads are always peoples answer. However M6 vs M5 + the addition of Vans means wraiths should always get the charge. Meaning 6 wounds again. Leaving 2 dryads back to hit again. dryads should lose by 3 (outnumber considered) and flee.

The only true way is magic casting/weapons however in most circumstances V/C have the abilty to protect wraiths magically, and wraiths shouldnt be running around in the open. And please remember we have not added HoC, ASF, re-rolls or other such trinkets to the combats. I have played 6 games with my VC's and 4 with the 6man wraith units. Each game using the wraiths was boring and embaressing, there is only so much fun you can get from your opponent when he simply has no units which can kill them... and they cannot be ignored. I am waiting for the deamons though, that should lvl the playing field i hope

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-04-2008, 12:10
Thats why it works out at 6 wounds. Which is a win without HoC, ASF, re-rolls. and against a T4 opponent. Like i said a static unit of 6 wraiths wins every round of combat unless its against T4 opponents with 3+saves and 3ranks, outnumber and banner.

No. They will, ON AVERAGE, win a combat against those Orcs, for example. But if you roll poorly they will lose because they have no static CR to back them up. And the odds continue to go up as they face more resilient enemies (Black Orcs, Dwarfs, etc).

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 12:18
Please read the original post. You may get a dud roll and lose a wound or two. IoN is about for a reason, and like i said as soon as you even add HoC on its own:

HoC + 6 wraiths vs 20 black orcs:

18 attacks hitting on 3's = 12hits
12 wounding on 3's = 8
5+save from h&s = 5 wounds (techincally 5.4)

Ok so its a draw, so lose 1 wound.

Round 2:

Same again but this time no 3rd rank. Wraiths win by 1.

What im saying is that:

Wraiths are not unbeatable, and if you are a total tool and rush rush them up the middle into everything and anything like a total giddy school boy, maybe you will lose. But they are skirmishers, who can go anywhere with M6, cause terror, immune to all mundane attacks. So the majority of armies who use fast cav, chariots, fliers, single rank knights on the flank have 0 methods of dealing with them. In the hands of a half decent general you have a 300point unit (not excessive considering most flank forces) which cannot be stopped and cannot be ignored.

All you have said in response is: Thats assuming you roll average dice rolls. Well even if i roll below i can recover from it, what happens if i roll above? can you? Saying: its luck, every so often it won't work does nothing to the fact that for those games inbetween, your opponent loses

DeathBringa
09-04-2008, 12:19
Your could add a mounted Wight King to the black knight unit, and give him the Book of Arkhan. That would make for a very effective (and surprising!) flanker that can still move as if ethereal!

Well as far as I know The Book Of Arkhan is an Arcane Item so the Wight king Can't take it as he's not a wizard.

Spirit
09-04-2008, 13:35
Just as a cheap solution to the combat problem with cairn wraiths

I'm pretty sure you can put a vampire battle standard bearer (175 points) into the unit. He gives 3 more attacks at s5, +1 to the combat resolution and the moment you lose combat, you make up the points for the bsb (you lost by one less for it being there, 25 points and it removes a wound from the crumble, 50 points total. One wraith saved lol.

And on the argument, I'm with lucian, wraiths may need to roll average (but they don't with a thrall in there) however vampires have so many options to build an army round them.

Always strike first (3 versions of it, bound, bound on cart and cast) WS6 (7!) staff of damnation (will remove a rank from whomever they are fighting) To name but a few. Just because they "might not win" on there own, does not make them bad. I run a vampire on a hellsteed with the helm of command. He is a lvl 2 mage with no save, against a ranked up unit, he will lose, against most heros, he will lose, against shooting, he will lose. But he never does. Why? because i throw (literally, with vanhells! :P ) 6 knights at WS6 into whatever i want, and the vampire gives the knights the ability to win combat. Vampires have been designed to be combined, dividing them is how you beat them.

Edit: Oh and he is a lvl 1 mage, so you can heal the unit ^^ maybe even vanhells it for re-rolls!

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 13:56
Well the only problem with a bsb vamp is he costs the price of 3 wraiths + 25pts. So for that reason why not simply make the wraiths 7 strong (all can still fight corner to corner). and it still leaves you 125 points (only 5 points short of a vamp with HoC - chuck him in some skeleies right behind them, hide him in a wood doesnt really matter as long as hes hidden)

However the idea is right: 6 plain wraiths are obscene

then you can go and tool them up completely........ as long as you have say 3 dispel scrolls and 6 dispel dice (not that unreasonable) it will take a prepared army to beat them

Spirit
09-04-2008, 14:50
Well the only problem with a bsb vamp is he costs the price of 3 wraiths + 25pts. So for that reason why not simply make the wraiths 7 strong (all can still fight corner to corner). and it still leaves you 125 points (only 5 points short of a vamp with HoC - chuck him in some skeleies right behind them, hide him in a wood doesnt really matter as long as hes hidden)



With a vampire they can always march, and the extra static combat res, combined with -1 wounds if you lose, makes the vampire worth it in its own merit. Especially the marching, you dont want a "flanking" force that has to be within 12" of your lord.

_Lucian_
09-04-2008, 15:24
In my army i run my vamp behind the wraiths in some ghouls, i also have a scouting/terror causing vamp who links up with my stray elements. The key to the vamp being behind them is he can use his HoC while in the unit he cannot. WS6 is a far better bonus than the BSB imo and if necessary the ghouls can help with the whole flanking procedure helping to gaurd my main battle line. I do suppose the BSB works well but then you lost the potential of HoC unless you wish to comit two vampires to that unit :S

Spirit
09-04-2008, 22:30
I use a flying HoC and a vamp in a skeleton unit in 2k, as well as a lord, id just swap out the vamp from the skeletons to the wraiths. And you only have to commit both when you think they cant win a fight without it. Same can be said for your tactic because your committing a whole unit and a vampire, almost the same as 2 vamps.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
09-04-2008, 23:28
All you have said in response is: Thats assuming you roll average dice rolls. Well even if i roll below i can recover from it, what happens if i roll above? can you? Saying: its luck, every so often it won't work does nothing to the fact that for those games inbetween, your opponent loses

I was responding to and correcting your comment that "a static unit of 6 wraiths wins every round of combat unless its against T4 opponents with 3+saves and 3ranks, outnumber and banner".

You were wrong with this particular statement, and I pointed it out...

_Lucian_
10-04-2008, 09:17
Grogs - i apologise for being too literal. Next time i should remember that sentances such as the one i used are going to be picked up on and corrected, it is important to be perfect in everything we do.

Spirit- I suppose what you are saying is true, although 10 ghouls merely cost 80points and can be left to do tasks on there own. I personally hate the idea of a vamp running round in the open on his own, especially one who has such a precious magic item as the HoC. each to there own i suppose