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Travman
09-04-2008, 22:35
As the two only big guns (that I know of) in the game that can only glance vehicles, do you think either of these weapons will be work their respective heafty points costs?

Inquiring minds that lack the vresion 5 pdf's want to know! :)

RampagingRavener
09-04-2008, 22:45
As the two only big guns (that I know of) in the game that can only glance vehicles, do you think either of these weapons will be work their respective heafty points costs?

Inquiring minds that lack the vresion 5 pdf's want to know! :)

Vibro Cannons to me seemed the red-headed stepchild of the Eldar Support batteries. Shadow Weavers let you dump three st6 blasts on the table each turn from relative saftey and for little points. D-cannons tend to utterly mess up whatever they hit, but are expensive and vulnerable. Vibro Cannons never seemed to be good for anything other than forcing Glances on vehicles. I doubt they'll be seen on the battlefeild much more.

Venom Cannons...while they now can't kill tanks, they won't vanish from 'Nid lists. They remain Tyranid's only real semi-reliable way of suppressing vehicles at long range, so while they're expensive and not very good at what they do, it's not like 'Nid players have much other option.

Stingray_tm
09-04-2008, 22:56
As long as Nids still can kill vehicles in close combat (which is quite unclear now), Venom Cannons still can do their job, which is shaking the vehicle until you kill the vehicle in close combat.
Or maybe they issue an FAQ stating, that those weapons can penetrate.
But to be honest, i think it is totally possible, that the designers, who are working on 5th edition, are not aware, that these weapons only can glance...

colmarekblack
09-04-2008, 23:05
The Tyranids will no doubt get a new codex, when 5th ed comes out so the venom cannon issue is a moot point for now. It'll be able penetrate in the new dex when ever that is. Not that nids have a problem with vehicles anyway.

Stingray_tm
09-04-2008, 23:08
I will not go into details again, but i need to say this: I don't play Nids in three years, when a new Nid codex comes out, i am playing Nids right now, so i don't give a damn about the next codex, because that is not the game i am playing. Or are you trying to say, that i should not complain about the production error in my car, because the next one i am going to buy in 5 years, will work fine?

Ozendorph
09-04-2008, 23:55
Honestly I don't think I've ever seen a vibro-cannon in a game, and I've been playing an awfully long time. I expect this trend to continue :)

Our Tyranid player isn't thrilled about the "nerfing" of the Venom Cannon, but it's not a huge deal either. He tends to cc vehicles to death very effectively, and I don't think that's going to change much in 5th.

Kirasu
10-04-2008, 00:57
Vibro cannons themselves are really good in 4th edition but the rules for artillery sucks.. large targets? no escalation?

But only glancing in 5th edition will make them both pretty poor imo.. especially with the much better choice such as the wraithlord

The Dude
10-04-2008, 01:20
I always thought the strength of the Vibro Cannon was in its ability to ignore terrain. Carefully placed, I imagine they could cause a reasonable amount of havoc from relative safety.

In 5th, I see them defending the “home” objective, covering approaches and the objective itself.

Of course, if I’m wrong about the rules (Eldar is next on my Codex purchase list ;)), then I’ll have to rethink it somewhat.

PseudoK
10-04-2008, 04:00
I can only hope that everyone views vibrocannons as being toned down in 5th edition. You're absolutely right, The Dude; my double vibrocannon squad is _always_ behind a building or a forest, making a 36" bubble of vehicle grinding. Their usefulness is about 100 points, as I could trade them in for something that would do about the same amount of damage with similar resilience.

And, invariably, I'm always flipped out at for the utter cheesiness of Eldar and vibrocannons.

You'd think Eldar were Necrons, even when holo-fields aren't on the table.

Mad King George
10-04-2008, 05:30
flank march vibro cannons / a death spinner they can still fire right?

Adiem
10-04-2008, 08:46
Yeah, the whole venom cannon situation is a bit of a pest, but I won't stop taking them because, as has been said, I don't have much of a choice! Got my fingers crossed for an FAQ or a new codex pretty soon into 5th ed

Mandragola
10-04-2008, 10:56
flank march vibro cannons / a death spinner they can still fire right?

They can't flank march.

I doubt that we will see a new nid codex any time soon. I also doubt that, when it comes, it will significantly improve venom cannons.

Remember, just for a second, just how good a carnifex with venom cannon and barbed strangler is right now, and how good it will continue to be in 5th. 2 strength 10 shots and a strength 8 large blast every turn on a platform that can't be stunned, shaken, immobilised, broken or have its weapons destroyed. It has at least 4 wounds and probably a 4+ cover save.

It won't even have to roll to hit with the barbed strangler in 5th, it will scatter. That makes it probably about the same against vehicles but a whole lot better against infantry, especially with everyone talking about horde armies.

Right now it's impossible for any vehicle to take on one of these guys. Just impossible. Even on the off chance that your tank isn't shaken (at best) you have to knock 4 wounds off the thing. That takes, with BS 4, about 14 shots from lascannons/missile launchers or equivalent. Yeah, right.

As already stated, a venom cannon's job is preventing tanks from doing anything while the rest of the nids run forward and eat everything. They do that very well, and 5th won't really change much for them.

Stingray_tm
10-04-2008, 11:47
As already stated, a venom cannon's job is preventing tanks from doing anything while the rest of the nids run forward and eat everything. They do that very well, and 5th won't really change much for them.

That remains to be seen. I guess it is all a matter of having rear attacks in cc or not.

airmang
10-04-2008, 12:01
wow! i'm surprised some of you haven't seen that many vibro-cannons. i just love the vibrocannon, and almost always play with a squad of three. ignoring terrain, S 6, pinning, d6 hits, only one has to hit for them all to hit, they are actually relatively cheap for what they do, and they still auto glance vehicle. they are just awesome.

yeah glancing can't destroy vehicles in 5th, but it can still disable them, and at least stop them from shooting. i'll still take vibro cannons in 5th, and with the emphasis on troops, i might take more, since they are cheap, and can cause so many wounds.

mchmr6677
23-04-2008, 17:01
That remains to be seen. I guess it is all a matter of having rear attacks in cc or not.

Rear attacks don't matter to a S9 carnifex that rolls 2d6+S for armor penetration. Landraiders are mincemeat and every other vehicle explodes. I just get tired of my carnies taking damage from the exploding vehicle it just tore apart.

Stingray_tm
23-04-2008, 17:05
Who cares? I don't want to be forced to take Godzilla, in order to take out tanks. It's like forcing Space Marines to take Land Raiders, otherwise they can't fight tanks.

mchmr6677
23-04-2008, 17:53
Fair enough. Although considering how mad everyone is about the defensive weapon rules, there may not be that many tanks to have to deal with in the first place.

Ozendorph
23-04-2008, 17:54
Surely you could find room in your list for a MC or two without it becoming "Nidzilla". The answers are there in the tyranid codex, if you choose to use them. Otherwise, your argument is the same as an Eldar player who says, "I just want to use Dire Avengers and Banshees. That's what I like. I'm very upset that I cannot destroy Land Raiders with my Avenger/Banshee list."

Draconian77
23-04-2008, 20:58
No its not. The only thing that can reliably kill Tanks in the Nid list in 4th ed are massed Venom Cannons and Rending. You should not get a MC into CC vs a tank against any decent general. Not to mention only MC's can kill tanks in the rumoured 5th ed, whereas in the Eldar army multiple units from multiple FOC can destroy tanks.

With both Venom Cannons and Rending being nerfed heavily vs Tanks I can't help but think only lists with 3-4 MC's will be able to "destroy tanks", as Stingray pointed out many players don't want to field that many MC's.

Speculating on the next Nid so early on dex is pointless imo.

mchmr6677
23-04-2008, 21:19
But most tanks are going to be left out of lists now because they can't move and shoot as much and don't count as scoring. Nids wont need to worry about killing tanks, there wont be enough to bother us.

Draconian77
23-04-2008, 21:47
I don't agree.

Tanks that where useful as pillboxes in 4th ed will be even more so in 5th ed due to the cover save rules for vehicles.

Generally 4th ed pillboxes just shot until they died, grabbing objectives was always other units roles(Generally something assaulty and fast)

I certainly think some armies will field less tanks, especially less flying skimmers with 2 S5+ weapons but I also believe some armies are still going to field 3 tanks in HS.

Marrak
23-04-2008, 21:52
Can't say much about the vibro cannon other than I think that it's ability to completely ignore cover will give it a place in Eldar lists, especially with how important cover seems to be in the 5th rumors.

Now as for Venom Cannons, saying that there won't be enough vehicles to worry about for a nid list is somewhat asinine; 1 vehicle will be able to tear up the majority of a nid army, and now the nids have one gun that can pen vehicles of armor 12-13, the barbed strangler, and can only glance armor 14, and only when carryied by a carnifex.

Now, if nids can CC vehicles better then I'm going to be just a little annoyed with the venom cannon; simply due to the fact that it's background states that it can blow through armor easily, which is not reflected with it's inability to penetrate a closed-top vehicle, or it's AP 4 against infantry.

If nids CC vehicles in the manner they do now, then we're talking about a rather large nerf to nids being able to handle vehicles. My only hope is that with the current design philosophy of making the army fit the background, we'll see some changes to tyranid weaponry in the future. Including bio-plasma. :P (that's another concern for another time tho)

As it stands, I'm not going to say nids are broken in any fashion whatsoever by this rule, it will just make vehicles a much greater threat.

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 00:19
The question is: How much fun is it to play against an army, where you now from the start, that you will not be able to harm a certain CLASS of units, just because you play the wrong army?

Draconian77
24-04-2008, 01:58
Well technically can harm them "if" we play with about 4-5 MC's. But the point is that not all Nid players want to run MC's isn't it?

Hopefully the Venom Cannon will be in an Errata or maybe the Nid dex will be redone come 5th ed(Cough, yeah right, cough)

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 11:07
I still have hopes for rear attack in cc. It makes too much sense to not include it. But hey, it's GW, so...

graveaccomplice
24-04-2008, 11:30
Well technically can harm them "if" we play with about 4-5 MC's. But the point is that not all Nid players want to run MC's isn't it?

Hopefully the Venom Cannon will be in an Errata or maybe the Nid dex will be redone come 5th ed(Cough, yeah right, cough)


I run two MC's and a group of warriors with venom cannons. Even with the higher strength they rarely (if ever) one-shot killed vehicles in fourth ed rules due to always glancing. It just means I use them the same way I always have: concentrated fire on the most threatening vehicle, or to keep skimmers from shooting. This is actually gets easier if area terrain doesn't block LOS.

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 11:38
The problem is not the VC getting nerfed. It is rending getting nerfed aswell. VCs were there to shake enemy tanks (and with a little luck even kill them), then the rending creatures close in and take out the stunned vehicle. This is no longer possible. You have to rely on MCs in close combat and that sucks. Every army out there has multiple ways to reliably deal with tanks, only Nids now have one. You need your ranged MCs to shake vehicles (so they don't blow up your army) and then you need MORE CC MCs to destroy them.

graveaccomplice
24-04-2008, 11:48
The problem is not the VC getting nerfed. It is rending getting nerfed aswell. VCs were there to shake enemy tanks (and with a little luck even kill them), then the rending creatures close in and take out the stunned vehicle. This is no longer possible. You have to rely on MCs in close combat and that sucks. Every army out there has multiple ways to reliably deal with tanks, only Nids now have one. You need your ranged MCs to shake vehicles (so they don't blow up your army) and then you need MORE CC MCs to destroy them.


You can still use rending, it's just less of a guarantee. A str 5 rending critter and a 6 to penetrate can just make 14 if they roll a 3 on the additional die. It makes for expensive genestealers, but at least you have the option. I don't believe they were intended to be such effective anti-vehicle troops to begin with.

Personally I'd like to see more terrain used to counter vehicles, especially in campaign games. Not so much for the cover save as it reduces vehicle mobility while not adversily effecting the nids.

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 12:02
So i attack with my Str5 Genestealer and have to roll 4+ (vehicle probably moved), then a 6, then a 5+. That is a chance of about 1/36. Assuming 6 overcosted Genestealers on the charge that should be about 18/36 glancing hits. Well, let's just assume we have 12 (!) Genestealers, that attack, so i will get one glancing hit.
Now what? How exactly am i supposed to kill the vehicle with glancing hits, if glancing hits can't destroy a vehicle due to the new damage table? What Genestealers can do i can do more reliably with a Venom Cannon...

mchmr6677
24-04-2008, 14:05
Perhaps we are looking at this the wrong way. Nids don't need to kill tanks in 5th ed. The tank can't score, and as most tanks are heavy on anti-vehicle weapons, they are best suited to destroy other tanks and transports. The nids don't have either. Warriors with deathspitters and toxin sacs are more then capable of dealing with most transports and skimmers, as are the carnies w/barbed stranglers. The landraider is a problem but not something that can't be dealt with.

My reasoning for them not being important is that even if we look at a preditor with HB sponsons and a stormbolter. It fires 10 shots per turn, 7 of which are likely hits and most of those are wounds (lets say 6 unsaved wounds). A 10-man dev squad is better at inflicting wounds then that (able to fire up to 18 shots with 12 hits and 10 wounds). If the nid player is limiting the number of big targets for the marine player to shot at, then he is using ALOT of models. The marine player just can't kill them fast enough unless he is loading up with devs and tac sqds, leaving little room for the tanks.

What do you think of that logic.
(I will agree though that it isn't realy balanced to have units that are near impossible to hurt. But that is an overall attack on the landraider and falcon in general isn't it.)

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 15:16
Why do Nids not need to kill tanks in 5th edition, if one out of three missions is about VPs (or KPs?) and the rest is decided upon VPs, when there is a draw on mission objectives? Why is it okay, to pump something into it every round, to just make it stop shooting (while btw there are a couple of units, that don't care about getting shaken), while every other race out there can potentielly destroy them in turn 1?

On Falcons: While the Falcon situation suckes, everyone has the problem with them, not only Nids. And it's only one vehicle, not every vehicle of the game...

mchmr6677
24-04-2008, 15:53
Nids still have the Warp Blast... I love using my fly tyrant with warp blast. Although, again, it sucks against marines with there darn librarians or eldar farseers with runes of warding. But I can see your point. We nids have never been very good against tanks though (other vehicles pop at our mere presence :)).

They might upgrade the VC, but I doubt it. Just a penalty for having the best CC army in play i guess.

Stingray_tm
24-04-2008, 15:57
Warp Blasts are not reliable enought. There are too few of them, their range is to short, they are on a BS3 model, they need a psychic test (which can be blocked).

And Nids are no longer the best cc army in the game. Eldars can do it better. Orks shouldn't be too bad, too. And Chaos doesn't suck in cc (i am talking Chaos Space Marines AND Chaos Daemons) either.

Vepr
24-04-2008, 16:04
I think people think of Nids as the best CC army due to stealers and hormaguants but really as mentioned that is not really the case anymore. From my limited experience playing against the new codex it might be orcs. At their price now would you rather have a group of boyz or gaunts?

Plus most people do not bother using the monstrous creatures as CC anymore. Even with run it will not be easy to get them into contact and when you do MC's become their most vulnerable due to power fists etc. It is almost like GW is saying you will play shooty Nidzilla whether you like it or not! ;)

trouncer
24-04-2008, 16:05
For artillery in general what about infiltrate and scouts being able to move in from the side? Since artillery that uses "guess" and stuff like vibro cannons tends to hide at the back behind cover they are very vulnerable to being shot at/ assaulted from anything that turns up like that. Which will happen a lot more.

In addition they can be shot through most cover so unless there's some truly impenetrable cover on the board they're toast. Most such units have very few wounds and won't survive even a mild toasting.

Can't think of may other artillery units that don't fire directly. Ork big guns? Guard mortars? Whirlwinds? Basilisks?

mchmr6677
24-04-2008, 16:06
BS3? Everyone but the tyrants max out at BS3! Thats why shooting is a waste of time. Don't bother. Plop an entirely assault army on the board (not even warp blast) and see if they can kill you before you kill them. :D It is loads of fun I assure you. And run will make it that much more entertaining...

Oh yes... it will....

Void_Dragon
24-04-2008, 19:02
BS3? Everyone but the tyrants max out at BS3! Thats why shooting is a waste of time. Don't bother. Plop an entirely assault army on the board (not even warp blast) and see if they can kill you before you kill them. :D It is loads of fun I assure you. And run will make it that much more entertaining...

Oh yes... it will....
An entirely assault army? Are you serious? It's the most uneffective army ever. We NEED to shake and destroy tanks, otherwise the rip us off completely. How are we supposed to deal with 3 leman russes? and it's not like we can ignore them and assault the guards... they fire pie plates of doom, you know...
IMHO Having an all-out assault army is not fun nor effective... not even with run.

mchmr6677
24-04-2008, 19:13
But Void, does anyone even play guard anymore?
I usually end up facing marines or tau.
Bunker assault with an all assault army rocks!

SPYDER68
24-04-2008, 19:35
I can only hope that everyone views vibrocannons as being toned down in 5th edition. You're absolutely right, The Dude; my double vibrocannon squad is _always_ behind a building or a forest, making a 36" bubble of vehicle grinding. Their usefulness is about 100 points, as I could trade them in for something that would do about the same amount of damage with similar resilience.

And, invariably, I'm always flipped out at for the utter cheesiness of Eldar and vibrocannons.

You'd think Eldar were Necrons, even when holo-fields aren't on the table.

To bad vibro cannons cannot shoot throu terrain, friends and i have sent multiple emails to games workshop and called multiple times and always the same answer, terrain stops its shot..

Travman
24-04-2008, 19:40
I field both eldar and tyranid, and as you might imagine have a vibrocannon battery in the eldar list and two or three venom cannon in the tyranid one.

As I have reviewed the responses, the vibrocannons actually look like they will become more effective, but for a very unusual reason. The will be less dangerous to vehicles in 5th Ed, so they will tend to be ignored. Further, I position them so they are not near any objectives. The enemy will not have an incentive to take them out before other things in my list. However the vibrocannons will, for 5 or 6 turns, just plink away influencing enemy mobility and model spacing and making my other units more effective.

Like others here, I am not sure what to do about the tyranid other than just play a few games under the 5th Ed system and see what works. I can't really think of any specific highly effective response to vehicles and tanks for the tyranid.

Thanks for all of the responses.

General Maximus
24-04-2008, 20:23
But Void, does anyone even play guard anymore?

I play guard and I will be playing guard even if they get a nerf in 5th. Dealing with tanks will be an issue if you have to play against me because I never leave base camp without at least 2 LR. BTW I am working towards a completely mechanized army.

Void_Dragon
24-04-2008, 20:35
But Void, does anyone even play guard anymore?
I usually end up facing marines or tau.
Bunker assault with an all assault army rocks!
Even worse, how are we going to stop the damn tau pie plates from squashing our broods?
Anyway, I feel like hijacking the thread. Suffice to say that I think two of my armies have been unfairly nerfed if the rumours are true. Screwing glancing hits effectively screws my nids and necrons. And they were not overpowered armies before...
Gotta go back to my wolves, seems this edition will be good for them: no pinning out of transports, running, less vulnerable to plasma thanks to the new wound allocation method... yeah, looks good if they write a good codex!

mchmr6677
24-04-2008, 21:30
I play guard and I will be playing guard even if they get a nerf in 5th.

Good for you...
I did mean that as a jest of course.
As both a nid and eldar player I have found many reasons to not like some things in 5th ed, but tactics will change, I will lose some games and then win some, and life will return to normal...

Draconian77
24-04-2008, 21:32
@ Whoever said to ignore tanks.

That is by far one of the worst ideas I have seen in a long time. You can't just let models in your opponents army have free reign. You must be threatening your opponent, forcing him into positions which limit his firepower but make him harder to kill. Besides, 3 Preds or Russ's can easily kill a brood or more a turn.

Tyranids haven't been the top CC army for a long, long time.

graveaccomplice
25-04-2008, 01:20
So i attack with my Str5 Genestealer and have to roll 4+ (vehicle probably moved), then a 6, then a 5+. That is a chance of about 1/36. Assuming 6 overcosted Genestealers on the charge that should be about 18/36 glancing hits. Well, let's just assume we have 12 (!) Genestealers, that attack, so i will get one glancing hit.
Now what? How exactly am i supposed to kill the vehicle with glancing hits, if glancing hits can't destroy a vehicle due to the new damage table? What Genestealers can do i can do more reliably with a Venom Cannon...


Glancing hits can destroy a vehicle, it just requires more than one hit to do so. The VC helps in this.

Your calculations are against 14 armor. Odds will increase against lower armor traits.

Stingray_tm
25-04-2008, 10:41
Glancing hits can destroy a vehicle, it just requires more than one hit to do so. The VC helps in this.

Your calculations are against 14 armor. Odds will increase against lower armor traits.

Oh wow. Glancing hits can destroy vehicles. Great. And a unit of 5 Guardsmen can wipe out a unit of 10 Terminators. It's just extremely unlikely.
Assuming the enemy tank has 4 weapons, you need to have 6 5+ rolls on the glance table in a row.
With our Venom Cannon on a Carnifex that means an average of 36 rounds of shooting...

mchmr6677
25-04-2008, 13:31
Stingray... I don't think we get to have 36 rounds of combat... or is that another rule change? :D

Stingray_tm
25-04-2008, 14:29
Hey, make the VC Assault6X and i am fine with the changes ;)

Vepr
25-04-2008, 15:52
Like every other time. New rules come out and some armies become more powerful and some become less powerful until they get a new codex. The only problem with GW is they can take so long between codexs. I think Nid players will be forced even more to play Nidzilla until we get a new codex.

philbrad2
25-04-2008, 17:03
The original thread was to do with glancing hits with Vibro/Venom and is getting a little off track lets bring it back to the original question please.

PhilB
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mchmr6677
25-04-2008, 17:31
Instructions received... :D

From a Nid player's standpoint, I'll keep using them but the Strangler is now better worth it's cost.
From an Eldar player's standpoint, artillery in general is a weak hvy choice so I haven't invested in it yet. With flankers, I probably wont be.

Grinloc
25-04-2008, 19:30
Sry, wrong thread.