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gamer5
10-04-2008, 00:45
alright, so I'm wanting to incorporate a slaanesh sorcerer into my mostly deathguard army. Slaanesh and Nurgle are my favorite chaos gods, but I like converting nurgle and the look of nurgle more than slaanesh so I'm thinking about converting a nurgloid sorcerer and having it count as a slaanesh sorcerer, calling lash of submission 'fevered dillusions' or something of the sort to fit nurgle's theme. What are your thoughts, mostly I'm wondering how many people you think wouldn't be accepting of this.
thanks

rodmillard
10-04-2008, 00:56
As long as it stops at the sorceror, I'd be fine with it. Fundamentally, slaanesh is the god of S.E.X. Nurgle is the god of S.T.D.s. There has to be some cross over.

BUT it has to be a good conversion, and you can't then turn round and say "because I have a counts-as Slaanesh sorceror, I can have noise marines." That would be breaking rule 7. (Thou Shalt Not Take The Michael)

gamer5
10-04-2008, 01:01
I like that point of view. Gave me a laugh.
and the sorcerer is the only thing I plan on doing this with.

Freakiq
10-04-2008, 09:40
If I'm going to blunt I think you are only doing this to get the lash.

I would not let you use it.

Müller
10-04-2008, 10:04
Honestly, I'd say no as well, a nugle scorcerer is a worshipper of nugle and that does clearly show, one that worships slaanesh also shows quite clearly, I say build one from scratch instead..

AdmiralDick
10-04-2008, 10:24
If I'm going to blunt I think you are only doing this to get the lash.

I would not let you use it.

so what if he is?

he's perfectly entitled to take a Slaaneshi sorceror in his predominantly Nurgle army, regardless of what motive there is behind it. the rules are set up specifically to allow that sort of cross over with no penalty. so unless you are saying he's cheating by playing by the rules i'm not really sure how you can justify that.

perhaps you should be a little more blunt and say that you refuse to play against anyone who uses the Lash.


Honestly, I'd say no as well, a nugle scorcerer is a worshipper of nugle and that does clearly show, one that worships slaanesh also shows quite clearly, I say build one from scratch instead..

as far as i am aware aside from Ahriman and the one from the TS box, there has never been a model for a scorceror dedicated to a specific god. so i'm assuming that the plan is that gamer5 was planning on converting the model anway, or just sticking with a generic model that had a themed paint scheme.


As long as it stops at the sorceror, I'd be fine with it. [...] BUT it has to be a good conversion, and you can't then turn round and say "because I have a counts-as Slaanesh sorceror, I can have noise marines." That would be breaking rule 7. (Thou Shalt Not Take The Michael)

again, gamer5 did not state that he had a Death Guard army, so he wasn't excluding the possibility of having troops dedicated to other gods in his otherwise Nurgle dedicated army. and there would be nothing to stop him from taking some models that used the rules for Noise Marines, but had models he'd converted and background to say that they were nurgle dedicated troops that happend to work a lot like Noise Marines.

edit: oh and incase my position wasn't clear, go for it. sounds like a good idea to me.

Eulenspiegel
10-04-2008, 11:19
It seems I´m on Freakiq´s side here.
If you like Nurgle so much then take what you get with Nurgle.

I´d play against any Slaanesh army - fine; even with two lashes - go ahead if that´s what you need to win.
I´d raise an eyebrow and pass an innocent, non-aggressive comment if someone used a Slaanesh Sorcerer in his otherwise Death Guard army. At least he is true to WYSIWYG and doesn´t confuse people.
But yes, picking the juciest psychic powers from other Chaos Gods is crossing the line for me. Trying to justify it with hastily made up fluff is just showing that you´re ashamed of it yourself.

TheLionReturns
10-04-2008, 11:28
Can you mix a slaanesh sorcerer into a predominantly nurgle army? Since the rules say you can I see no problem. In fact you would get more respect in my eyes by modeling in a nurgle way and coming up with a fluff explanation like you say. I like themed armies and I don't think picking a strong list should be a barrier to having a good unifying theme.

To those who say this is just a way of getting lash into your list, that is nonsense. You could get lash into your list just by taking a slaanesh sorcerer and it would require a lot less effort than coming up with fluff to keep your theme consistent.

The only reason I would not allow it is if you were somehow trying to have lash of submission and the benefits of the mark of nurgle. This is not allowed.

wickedvoodoo
10-04-2008, 11:29
As admiraldick points out it is perfectly legal rules-wise to have a slaanesh sorceror in a deathguard army.

Its a bit cheesy i guess, but aslong as i could see that effort had gone into converting the model i wouldn't be bothered by that at all. There is a player at my local club who has a deathguard army led by two winged slaaneshi lash princes and people regularly put up with that.

Edit - As eugenspiegel says, you may find people comment on it, they might tease a little but at the end of the day you are not breaking the rules, and that is that.

Adra
10-04-2008, 12:34
yeah its 100% legal and hay if hes doing it for lash then so be it.

However, i would consider using an obviously nurgle character, styled in the look of nurgle, but having slaanesh rules to be a breach of WYSIWYG. Its contraditory to the fluff and confusing for enemy players. Imagine, if you will, an obviously Khorne Deamon Prince. Painted Red and brass with icography of Khorne on him, great axe in one hand, bloody hands, skull trophys, everything about him says Khorne....but on his belt a tiny mark of Tzeentch....so he has Bolt of Change...as far as im concerned thats a WYSIWYG breach.

Müller
10-04-2008, 12:49
yeah its 100% legal and hay if hes doing it for lash then so be it.

However, i would consider using an obviously nurgle character, styled in the look of nurgle, but having slaanesh rules to be a breach of WYSIWYG. Its contraditory to the fluff and confusing for enemy players. Imagine, if you will, an obviously Khorne Deamon Prince. Painted Red and brass with icography of Khorne on him, great axe in one hand, bloody hands, skull trophys, everything about him says Khorne....but on his belt a tiny mark of Tzeentch....so he has Bolt of Change...as far as im concerned thats a WYSIWYG breach.

My point exacly, WYSIWYG is like THE golden rule, giving a character a chainsword on model and then later claiming it to be a power fist just dosen't work.. Something that works IMO is say, for example, my Librarian which I built myself from different bits, he's carrying a staff just because it makes him look sinister as hell along with his pose (again, IMO), now, that could easily be used as a force weapon since there are no restrictions what shape a force weapon must have, but claiming a bolter to be a FW is pure heresey ;)

TzeentchForPresident
10-04-2008, 12:49
Slaanesh and Nurgle have always get along well so taking a Slaanesh sorcerer in what mostly is a Nurgle army is absolutely no problem.

However using a Slaanesh sorcerer that looks like a Nurgle sorcerer I would say it needs the opponents permission first.

GW thought the Daemon Princes without daemonic stature was confusing in 3.5 and decided that all DP should be big. But that confusion pales compared the confusion your example brings.

If a player see something that looks like a Nurgle sorcerer then who can blame him for not expecting being victim of Lash of submission like all other times he has faced Spikey Marine armies?

Tonberry
10-04-2008, 12:57
However, i would consider using an obviously nurgle character, styled in the look of nurgle, but having slaanesh rules to be a breach of WYSIWYG.

How so? There's nothing anywhere that says that a Slanneshi Sorceror can't be green and obese -__-

wickedvoodoo
10-04-2008, 13:18
However using a Slaanesh sorcerer that looks like a Nurgle sorcerer I would say it needs the opponents permission first.


Permission is the wrong word, you need permission to use superheavies, or to use flyers. In this case the phrase you were looking for is that it needs the opponent to be informed. There is no game mechanic rule being broken but it is very bad form to wait until turn 2 or 3 to reveal a counts-as being in use.

As others have stated a nurglesque sorceror is not a fitting wsyiwyg representation of a slaanesh one. But aslong as the opponent is informed before the game begins then there is no problem, its one counts as exception to the army, its not going to confuse and befuddle opponents.

AdmiralDick
10-04-2008, 13:19
The only reason I would not allow it is if you were somehow trying to have lash of submission and the benefits of the mark of nurgle. This is not allowed.

this would ba a legitimate reason to reject their offer of a game, because they are not playing by the independently adjudicated rules. in a normal pick-up game that's not really appropriate, because the players aren't garenteed to know each other so well. in a friendly, pre-arranged game though you can always suggest it, the worst that can happen is you opponent can say no.


However, i would consider using an obviously nurgle character, styled in the look of nurgle, but having slaanesh rules to be a breach of WYSIWYG. Its contraditory to the fluff and confusing for enemy players. Imagine, if you will, an obviously Khorne Deamon Prince. Painted Red and brass with icography of Khorne on him, great axe in one hand, bloody hands, skull trophys, everything about him says Khorne....but on his belt a tiny mark of Tzeentch....so he has Bolt of Change...as far as im concerned thats a WYSIWYG breach.

i think you may be reading too much into the concept of WYSIWYG.

everything on the table is a model. it is not real and it does not really perform the functions in question. also in no part of any rule does it every say explicitly what an item or model definitively looks like. there is certainly background to help give your units a bit of flavour if you want, but such background is not tied to the rules or mechanics of the game (meaning that if you take a given rule you could explain it in a different fashion if you so chose).

that means what ever things look like is actually down to you as the player (or modeller in this case). to help people who are playing against your army remember what they are fighting against (so that they don't make unnecessary tactical blunders) we have to apply WYSIWYG, which means that if any thing in your army that looks a certain way, then anything else in you army that also looks that way must behave the same in the game. that doesn't mean that all things that work the same look the same. it also doens't mean that absolutely every rule needs to be represented by a model or a component of a model (how would you model the ability to re-roll moral checks?).

if there was a massive model that to me (because of my presumptions) looked like a Khornate model, and yet turned out to represent a Tzeentch DP i wouldn't have much room to complain, unless he was using the same type of model and or iconography to represent something else.

TzeentchForPresident
10-04-2008, 13:22
How so? There's nothing anywhere that says that a Slanneshi Sorceror can't be green and obese -__-

You mean fat? Hmm, well if he is fat, has green armour and no +1 initiative since being bulky will not exactly make him fast, seeing that Deathguards gets a -1 penalty on I, and he also has the Slaanesh icon clearly visible and show no signs of being sick or decayed.

Sure then I wouldn´t mind. Then it is easy to see that he is a fat Slaanesh sorcerer that eats too much.

But this post do look like a case of Lash-of-submission-envy.

But anyway, as long as he has opponents permission then it is ok.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 13:29
As long as its WYSIWYG and conforms to the rules of the codex (a power weapon for power weapon, that sort of thing) then you're fine. I'm the opposite in that I'm not a Nurgle fan, but that fits your force so go for it.


If I'm going to blunt I think you are only doing this to get the lash.

I would not let you use it.

How would you not let him use it? Is it a legal list? If yes then as the immortal bard once said "hey you shutta ya face!"

StanMcKim
10-04-2008, 13:33
This is just my two cents, but why not model/paint some perverted blend of the nurgle and slaaneshi symbols and do the model up as a worshiper of both gods? It'll stand out as being a distinctly slaaneshi sorceror with a nurgle twist on it. He'll obviously stand out as different from the rest of your army but will easily fit in thematically.
-Stan

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 13:36
Excellent idea StanmcKim! People forget Slaanesh is not the god of s%x, but the coalescence of sensation-all sensation. This boy could have just gone down a sensation path most of us actively avoid. Could be the spirit of Kervorkian...

TzeentchForPresident
10-04-2008, 13:56
Permission is the wrong word, you need permission to use superheavies, or to use flyers. In this case the phrase you were looking for is that it needs the opponent to be informed. There is no game mechanic rule being broken but it is very bad form to wait until turn 2 or 3 to reveal a counts-as being in use.

As others have stated a nurglesque sorceror is not a fitting wsyiwyg representation of a slaanesh one. But aslong as the opponent is informed before the game begins then there is no problem, its one counts as exception to the army, its not going to confuse and befuddle opponents.

To make it short, wrong information is worse than too little information.

If you are facing unpainted models you might not be 100% sure what you are facing, but all that is needed is a clarification and it is obvious that clarification is needed. I am ok with playing vs unpainted models although it is slightly annoying.

However facing something that looks like a Nurgle sorcerer it isn´t obvious that it needs clarification, if it looks like a Nurgle sorcerer then surely it is a Nurgle sorcerer.

And if it looks like a Nurgle sorcerer then I expect it to use the powers and equipment available to a Nurgle sorcerer. It all boils down too if he wants to use Lash of Submission or if he wants to play a game basically. Do he wants to win at all cost or does he plays for fun?

And the "count as" has to be the most stupid rule ever if one looks at the extremes, that players using the rules of special characters but not using the models (if such are available) of those special characters because of the "count as" rule..... :mad:

Xardian
10-04-2008, 14:28
@OP
Well, if you need a guideline for doing something like this, check out the "Counts As" rules in the UK GT (http://uk.games-workshop.com/tournaments/pdfs/40k-gt-pack-2006.pdf) as it's a pretty good guideline and typical of what you'll see in official game forums.

Basically, since there's no such thing as a 40k sorcerer of slaanesh model, and you're planning to convert one anyway, you may use the Counts As. The only conditions to worry about are that A) every model that looks like that represents the same thing, B) your opponent is informed before the battle starts, and C) The model is different enough to be easily distinguished from the rest of the army to avoid confusion (this seems to be TzeentchForPresident's hang up if I read his posts correctly).

Since that should all be very very simple for a one-off chaos sorcerer conversion, then from about the most official standpoint you can get, there's nothing wrong with the idea.

@TzeentchForPresident
There is a part in #4 of the Counts as Rule form the UK GT that address your concern I think. Basically if there was a Nurgle Sorcerer model in the range, you could not then use that model to represent anything but a Nurgle Sorcerer. You could use it as the basis for a conversion and then use that converted model with a Counts As, however. Mind you, that's a straight up rules standpoint. And I would tend to follow the official fluff more, but as long as my opponent has some good fluff of thier own (I'm such a sucker for a good bit of original fluff), the list is still legal, and the models are easy to identify, I wouldn't have a bit of problem playing against them.

Power Armored Zombie
10-04-2008, 14:49
I wouldn't mind lettin you use it. But where I stand right now I refuse to use Lash, I just don't like the power and I've been on the recieving end of it, and it doesnt make for a very fun game.

But I do have coverted nurgle bezerkers and nurgle noise marines. The justification for the berzerkers are that they are so ridden with disease that it drove them insane and they live to slaughter and infect much like the "zombies" from 28 days later. and the Noiser Marines are just plague marine squads with heavy bolters to act as sonic blasters (which I see as very fluffy as there are numerous pictures of plague marines with HBs and I think the use and look of the gun really fits in with Death Guard fluff), autocannons to use as blast masters and the doom siren is basically a champion puking on you.

PAZ

Freakiq
10-04-2008, 14:57
If it had the mark of slaanesh modeled on him and clearly is a slaanesh sorcerer I wouls have no problem with it.

AdmiralDick
10-04-2008, 15:17
@Freakiqcan: you please define what is or isn't 'clearly' slaaneshi, please?

Freakiq
10-04-2008, 15:37
@Freakiqcan: you please define what is or isn't 'clearly' slaaneshi, please?

Read Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh, Realms Of chaos: Slaves To Darkness and Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

It's all there.

BaronDG
10-04-2008, 15:41
The forces work together so no problem there. Just name him Ch'la-mydia and it will be perfectly clear.

On the other hand, if you are after the lash I think you should reconsider. It makes a mockery of your opponents tactics and it is never fun to not have control of the army you are playing.

qwertywraith
10-04-2008, 16:04
Read Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh, Realms Of chaos: Slaves To Darkness and Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

It's all there.

Not many people have access to the former two books. As for the last book, it gives some background, but very little information. What does excess look like? There are also only like 6 painted EC marines, one flawless host marine, and a couple of illustrations in the codex. What about a non-pink Slaanesh unit, like how the Cleaved are Nurgle but grey with runny mascara (and pink, incidentally. It's mixed in there, look closely).

There really is nothing stopping you from painting a fat, decaying, pustule covered sorceror, wearing green armour, standing on a base covered in Nurglings, and using it as a Slaanesh Sorceror because as far as I can tell Marks are not modeled. If it looks like a sorceror, that is enough for WYSIWYG. It would HELP, and be a good idea (I think) to paint the mark of slaanesh on his armour, or give him an icon of slaanesh (suitably nurglified).

If I end up using the Icon of Khorne, it is going to be pink. Nurgle? Pink.

As for Lash I've used it and it hasn't won me any games. It's useful sometimes. It does some pretty neat things, but at my last tournament, in 3 games, I used it 5 times. Part of that was my not having a unit that could keep up with my sorceror so I held him back a bit, but still. For the price of a lash sorceror you could have a vindicator. Which instead of moving a unit within 24" KILLS a unit within 24".

intellectawe
10-04-2008, 16:12
First off, there is no such thing as 'Counts As'. Each army book tells you to follow simple rules to model the model as it appears on the table. Its usually in the wargear section or armory.

Now if you are making progress to make a Slaneeshi Sorcerer, then it would be ok by me to play with the Nurgle count as, but if you plan on just using the nurgle guy all the time, then for me, no, take your army elsewhere.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 16:19
The forces work together so no problem there. Just name him Ch'la-mydia and it will be perfectly clear.

On the other hand, if you are after the lash I think you should reconsider. It makes a mockery of your opponents tactics and it is never fun to not have control of the army you are playing.

There's nothing wrong with Lash. Its a legal technique and not a loophole. Its no different than A cannons, falcons, or any other high powered item in a list.



There really is nothing stopping you from painting a fat, decaying, pustule covered sorceror, wearing green armour, standing on a base covered in Nurglings, and using it as a Slaanesh Sorceror because as far as I can tell Marks are not modeled.

Are you talking about 40K or my old employer :)

BaronDG
10-04-2008, 16:26
I didn't say it was illegal, I said it wasn't funny. There is a difference.

I think a callidus assasins "Word in your ear" is pushing it and that is one move, one unit, 6 inches, before the game starts.

Thanatos_elNyx
10-04-2008, 16:32
I would say you are fine.

Hell in my Tzeentch themed Chaos army I have converted Broadsides as Obilerators, a converted Wraithlord as a Dread, converted Seraphim as Raptors and if I ever felt like it I would have my Sorceror lord who is modelled as Tzeentch equipped with Lash as the Bolt of Change is a rubbish power and Lash is decidedly more Tzeentchy anyway.

I would of course make all this clear to my opponent before a game so that there was no surprises.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 16:33
You're posited a chaos marine player should never have lash. Thats akin to a marine player never taking a librarian. I may think its a broken formation as well, but its an acceptable item.

Converted Wraithlord-ooh I like the sound of that. A fallen lord of some sort has so many modelling opportunities.

ChaosBeast
10-04-2008, 17:17
If i read the OP correctly, didnt it say he wanted a 'nurgle' sorceror with some fluffy explanation of another phycic power that happens to work identically to lash? i put nurgle in brackets as he wouldn't actually be +1 T, he'd be+1 I. and if the OP informs you at the begining of a game he is not breaking a single rule unless there is one i missed that said:
"you may not choose the colour scheme or decoration on your model, you have to paint him pink and purple"

I myself have toyed with the idea of Slaneshi beserkers, normal slanesh marines with a pair of chainswords each and in a kind of kung-fu pose, the fluff being that they get so high on drugs they go into a heroine-fuelled frenzy and get an extra attack. i bothered to come up with fluff, but if someone else didnt want to, it doesnt matter they're not breaking any rules!

DeLtA009
10-04-2008, 18:08
I just try to imagine to poor Slaanesh sorcerer in that rotting crowd *lol*
the poor guy will need an extreme big flask of perfume <_<

TzeentchForPresident
10-04-2008, 18:42
If i read the OP correctly, didnt it say he wanted a 'nurgle' sorceror with some fluffy explanation of another phycic power that happens to work identically to lash? i put nurgle in brackets as he wouldn't actually be +1 T, he'd be+1 I. and if the OP informs you at the begining of a game he is not breaking a single rule unless there is one i missed that said:
"you may not choose the colour scheme or decoration on your model, you have to paint him pink and purple"

I myself have toyed with the idea of Slaneshi beserkers, normal slanesh marines with a pair of chainswords each and in a kind of kung-fu pose, the fluff being that they get so high on drugs they go into a heroine-fuelled frenzy and get an extra attack. i bothered to come up with fluff, but if someone else didnt want to, it doesnt matter they're not breaking any rules!

I am afraid that you are bending the "count as" rule to the point that your opponent will ask himself "What the hell I am I looking at?

The purpose of "count as" is to be able to use old miniatures, not for confusing your opponent or for laziness; http://uk.games-workshop.com/tournaments/pdfs/40k-gt-pack-2006.pdf
and even when you are using old miniatures in tournaments you will have to
" approach a Referee and notify them of your desicion to use the "count as" rule." And the referee can decide to disallow it if it feels like it is inappropiate or confusing.

If you are using are using normal Slaanesh marines with a pair of chain swords , and try to use the Khorne Berzerkers rules despite the fact that there are models for Khorne Berzerkers around, it will be confusing and you better ask your opponent for permission.

gamer5
10-04-2008, 19:11
I suppose I should have clarified my question more, though most of you did see where I was coming from.
I know for a fact that it's not illegal, I was mainly questioning peoples thoughts on the matter, though those thoughts came through anyways.
now, correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading through all these posts, it feels as though those of you who think Lash is broken are opposed to this and those that claim Lash is fair, just a powerful chaos tool, are not opposed.
Given this, it seems that most who'd be opposed to me using a nurgle themed slaanesh sorcerer would be dismayed if I used a blatantly slaanesh sorcerer with the lash anyways.

lastly, because I'd like to share.
I'm planning on converting two sorcerers (because I had two concepts and wanted to roll with both instead of choosing). The first has teeth protruding from around his neckline and his head has elongated into roughly the shape of a 'tongue'. The second is the floating upper body of a CSM with cords hanging down from where his legs should be, entangling a corpse. his upper body will be extremely bloated with spore cysts and whatnot protruding from him. I plan on adding a good amount of flesh color to these guys so they actually might have more pink to them than green. This I think would help enforce the fact and remind people that they're slaanesh during a game. Also, I was originally planning on just making a slaanesh looking slaanesh sorcerer and using him, but decided I wanted my army to appear more unified, so this is an aesthetic choice more than anything.

jfrazell
10-04-2008, 19:48
I suppose I should have clarified my question more, though most of you did see where I was coming from.
I know for a fact that it's not illegal, I was mainly questioning peoples thoughts on the matter, though those thoughts came through anyways.
now, correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading through all these posts, it feels as though those of you who think Lash is broken are opposed to this and those that claim Lash is fair, just a powerful chaos tool, are not opposed.
Given this, it seems that most who'd be opposed to me using a nurgle themed slaanesh sorcerer would be dismayed if I used a blatantly slaanesh sorcerer with the lash anyways.

I think that is a good part of the issue (but not all). But there are good faith arguments that Nurgle should be with Nurgle or not confusing. Then you would have the theme counterargument that Nurgle should play Nurgle and not mix/match. Again, there are already ideas on modelling that would achieve both (a sorceror with a giant snot whip out its its nose is one idea).



lastly, because I'd like to share.
I'm planning on converting two sorcerers (because I had two concepts and wanted to roll with both instead of choosing). The first has teeth protruding from around his neckline and his head has elongated into roughly the shape of a 'tongue'. The second is the floating upper body of a CSM with cords hanging down from where his legs should be, entangling a corpse. his upper body will be extremely bloated with spore cysts and whatnot protruding from him. I plan on adding a good amount of flesh color to these guys so they actually might have more pink to them than green. This I think would help enforce the fact and remind people that they're slaanesh during a game. Also, I was originally planning on just making a slaanesh looking slaanesh sorcerer and using him, but decided I wanted my army to appear more unified, so this is an aesthetic choice more than anything.
Those are sick! Perfect for chaos:D:eek::D

lord_blackfang
10-04-2008, 21:44
I'm with the OP, jfrazell, and tortoise on this one. Absolutely nothing worng with it. But I'd put a clearly visible symbol of Slaanesh on the guy's shoulder pad to shut up the whiners.

ChaosBeast
10-04-2008, 21:50
<----Removed Deleted Post. WarSeer Inquisition---->

Yes, but it doesnt make SENSE fluff wise to have beserkers in a slannesh army as they hate eachothers guts. therefore if you can do a cool conversion of units that represent beserkers stat wise, then why shouldn't you be allowed to use them if you inform your opponent and all your beserkers are moddeled the same way.

i see fluff as important, therefore id rather design some slaneshi style beserkers than normal ones, which makes no sense. Same applies to OP, same applies to everything.

TzeentchForPresident
10-04-2008, 23:09
What else would we call a person who doesn't let someone use a perfectly legal model because it's not the colour he thinks it should be?

We will know that day we find that player that has problem with the colour alone. Maybe you can quote that player you are talking about that have such problems?

I said paint those Khorne Berzerkers pink for all that I care and earlier I talked about that I was ok with a green and fat Slaanesh sorcerer as long as it was clearly visible that it was a Slaanesh sorcerer. And that I am ok although a bit annoyed playing vs unpainted models. Is that the colour intolerance you are talking about?

DapperAnarchist
10-04-2008, 23:12
There's an EXCELLENT reason to use a model other than the released one for that unit - cos you want to make one of your own, that has more meaning for you, that you put love (and some blood) into. "Oh, I'm sorry, that Horned Rat model can't be used as a Chaos Greater Daemon, cos its not one of the released models." Seriously? Or how about those wonderful Greater Daemon models on the US website? One of them is a Crisis Suit!

And as for colour, it would be a sad day when every model had a predetermined colour scheme.

Freakiq
10-04-2008, 23:15
There's an EXCELLENT reason to use a model other than the released one for that unit - cos you want to make one of your own, that has more meaning for you, that you put love (and some blood) into. "Oh, I'm sorry, that Horned Rat model can't be used as a Chaos Greater Daemon, cos its not one of the released models." Seriously? Or how about those wonderful Greater Daemon models on the US website? One of them is a Crisis Suit!

And as for colour, it would be a sad day when every model had a predetermined colour scheme.

You could use regular CSM as Khorne berzerkers if you want and paint them purple if you wish, as long as they have the right equipment and khornate icongraphy.

macattac
11-04-2008, 00:06
My oppionin as a chaos player is that if you inform your opponent of the situation, then there should be no problem. As for the initative issue, lets say he rotted down to the bone and so has ALOT less weight on him, soving the +1 iniative issue. It sounds like a cool idea, go for it!

Freakiq
11-04-2008, 00:37
Don't know why I was so stubborn earlier, I agree with mac and would play against it if I knew what it was even though it's kind of low to take a lash in a Nurgle list.

But I still think the namecalling was totally uncalled for. If you can't debate in a civilized manner you do not belong on this forum.

Rioghan Murchadha
11-04-2008, 01:17
So because someone disagrees you have to call them names?

And I said nothing about colour, I said that a model with mark of slaanesh should have a mark of slaanesh not use counts as to justify an unfluffy army selection. If you have a Slaanesh Sorcerer make him a Slaanesh sorcerer.

I think it's been asked before, but exactly how would you 'make him a Slaanesh sorcerer.' The mark of a god isn't a physical thing. The model doesn't need a tattoo on its forehead to prove it has a mark. The fact that it is using Lash of Submission is evidence of the mark. Likewise, painting a symbol on your shoulderpad doesn't prove your devotion, or the Alpha legion would have serious issues with their disguises... Sorcerers, unlike Terminators, or chosen squads, don't need to carry an Icon, and there is literally no reason that a person couldn't share the mark of more than one god... Otherwise how do you explain Abbaddon?

CaptScott
11-04-2008, 04:18
Are we still just talking about one model here?

All he has to do is point it out at the start of the game and say "he counts as a Slannesh sorceror". It's not like he's saying "he counts as a land raider".

That being said it can get a little confusing when multiple units 'count as' something else, in which case I would like some sort of identifying mark/colour scheme.

my 3 cents

Sir_Lunchalot
11-04-2008, 08:03
Sure, go for it. And just so you know, I'll be taking a unit of extremely fanatical and exceptionally well armed storm troopers, and because they're so fanatical and are able to use their faith to fight better, they're counts as Sisters of Battle.

Eulenspiegel
11-04-2008, 08:37
And I have a Chimera, that fires a super-powered experimental beam, through I have to admit that the gun on the turret looks the same. Just so that there is no confusion I painted little lightning icons on its barrel.
It is exceptionally well armoured, I represented this with a layer of plasticard. Granted, it doesn´t look too much different to my other chimeras, but it now counts for all intents and purposes as a Leman Russ.

And I have Imperial Guard to count as Stormtroopers. They have extra kneepads modelled. That is enough to make their save jump from 5+ to 4+. Their guns have their power packs painted in bright silver instead of dull silver, just to show they´re hotshots.

And my other Chimera counts as a Hellhound. It fires through the regular barrel, mark you, but the tip is painted red.

And then there´s some Imperial Guardsmen that I converted just to look better. They´re regular Guardsmen, though.
Except those with ammo pouches on their belts, they´re Veterans.


Okay okay, dont flame me, I´m exaggerating :)
You get my point, though. As long as you´re not very definite with good conversions, counts as is just too confusing. I´m a big fan of "counts as", I use it myself. I use models from a different manufacturer that count as Stormtroopers, my Hellhound, my Leman Russ. "Counts as" is very very good to save money, have nice models and show creativity.

It is not there to get your damn stupid overpowered psychic power and confuse opponents with models that have their own rules.

I can use Marines with my invented paintscheme to count as Blood Angels.
I can NOT use Marines in Ultramarine heraldry as Blood Angels.
Get my point?



Disclaimer: Proxying to playtest stuff is fine.

ChaosBeast
11-04-2008, 10:07
" I can NOT use marines in Ultramarine heraldry as Blood Angels"
why not? i thought we had worked out that colour was not an issue. if you have the codexand pay the points, why does it matter if you prefer blue to red?

make them a succesor chapter, or something. why shouldnt you be allowed to use BA rules just cos you dont like red.

Skirnak
11-04-2008, 10:39
And I said nothing about colour, I said that a model with mark of slaanesh should have a mark of slaanesh not use counts as to justify an unfluffy army selection. If you have a Slaanesh Sorcerer make him a Slaanesh sorcerer.

I completely agree with this. For the record I have absolutely no qualms about the Lash, it's just a Slaaneshi spell translated into 40k.

Fay_Redd
11-04-2008, 10:46
i say go for it, bugger the people who are scared of lash just go ahead. i can see it working slaanesh lash would be a lithe golden tentacle drifting through the air to the target and a nurgle one would probably be a swarm of flies so thick that it works like rope.

BaronDG
11-04-2008, 12:43
Well, as long as you make a pretty model just about anything can be accepted.

I still don't like lash though. And to those who just say it's a legal mechanic, well so was Virus outbreak...

The lash isn't quite as bad as Virus outbreak was but you get the picture.

AdmiralDick
11-04-2008, 13:13
it feels as though those of you who think Lash is broken are opposed to this and those that claim Lash is fair, just a powerful chaos tool, are not opposed.
Given this, it seems that most who'd be opposed to me using a nurgle themed slaanesh sorcerer would be dismayed if I used a blatantly slaanesh sorcerer with the lash anyways.

i think that's probably quite quite a fair summation. i have no real love for the Lash, but i'm not going to stop someone from playing with a perfectly legal build. i'd prefer to try and find a way of combatting it, rather than refusing to play. mind you i don't really play unexpect pick-up games and i rarely ever play someone i don't know. also as a Emperor's Children player i'm acutely aware of the loss of character from slaaneshi (and other chaos) forces, and when one of the few things that we have been handed to give character to our army is heralded as 'broken' it can be very galling.

also, really like the sound of the maw-headed one. post picks when its done.


Read Liber Chaotica: Slaanesh, Realms Of chaos: Slaves To Darkness and Codex: Chaos Space Marines.

It's all there.

is that a no then?

i have read all of those books, cover to cover, more than once (spent a lot of time and money tracking down 40k books from the very earliest days), but there is next to nothing that explicitly defines what is or what isn't representive off all things that are associated with slaanesh. just rough examples of some specific things and nothing to say that those things are not found else where (like the Dark Eldar).

having collected and played Chaos since the release of the 2nd Ed Codex, i still cannot give you a clear description of what a follower of Slaanesh must look like.


It isn´t about the colours you know. Khorne Berzerkers can be pink for all that I care, but since there are Berzerkers models out there there is no excuse for not using them, new or old ones.

what if you don't like the models? do you just have to suck it up and use them anyway?


And I wouldn´t call a referee in GW grand tournament an extremly bad sportman, "and incredible juvenile" if he disallows a player to let a Nurgle sorcerer use Slaanesh psychic powers.

well neither would i, but that's not really what we are discussing here. we aren't talking about a unit that uses Nurgle rules except that it can take the Lash. we're talking about a unit that uses all the standard rules for a Slaaneshi Sorceror but the model doesn't meet your presumptions as to what it should look like.


However I doubt that it was intended for patching up flawed characterless codexes, we have the Apocalypse rules for that one it seems.

agreed :cries:


And I said nothing about colour, I said that a model with mark of slaanesh should have a mark of slaanesh not use counts as to justify an unfluffy army selection. If you have a Slaanesh Sorcerer make him a Slaanesh sorcerer.

i thought we'd already agreed that having a Slaaneshi Sorceror in an otherwise Nurgle army wasn't unfluffly? its even less 'unfluffy' if we remember that what we are talking about is a Nurgle Sorceror who happens to behave on the table-top in a fashion like that of a a Slaaneshi one.


Don't know why I was so stubborn earlier, I agree with mac and would play against it if I knew what it was even though it's kind of low to take a lash in a Nurgle list.

lol. thanks being honest.

i think it would be lower to take Lash in a Tzeentchen or Slaaneshi list, where shooting was more important. or probably in a Khornate army, where they'd want to be getting into combat. in fact a Nurgle army is probably the least effective combo isn't it?


But I still think the namecalling was totally uncalled for. If you can't debate in a civilized manner you do not belong on this forum.

agreed. bad Tortoise! off the furniture!

Thanatos_elNyx
11-04-2008, 16:34
The second is the floating upper body of a CSM with cords hanging down from where his legs should be, entangling a corpse. his upper body will be extremely bloated with spore cysts and whatnot protruding from him.

The cords/tentacle one sounds cool, if you really want to sick it up a bit you could always have, instead of a corpse, a victim of tentacle rape! :eyebrows:

Hmmm, perhaps too sick to take onto your average tabletop. :angel:

Captain Brown
11-04-2008, 17:50
Alright Gentlemen, enough with the insult exchanges, several of you have crossed the line and been reported.

Tortoise, while entitled to your opinion, please do not embellish it with insulting comments, it detracts from your point and starts pointless internet fights.
TzeentchForPresident and Freakiq there is also no reason to respond in kind and make the issue larger than it was.

Therefore I have deleted a dozen posts and hope that you can continue your discussion with insinuating that other members are immature or have other less desirable traits.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition

gamer5
11-04-2008, 18:45
also, really like the sound of the maw-headed one. post picks when its done.


I will if I can find a decent camera, but who knows then that'll be. Besides that, I'm currently in the middle of converting two obliterators, a chaos lord, and a D Prince. Lots of putty work in my near future.

tortoise
11-04-2008, 20:57
Alright Gentlemen, enough with the insult exchanges, several of you have crossed the line and been reported.

Tortoise, while entitled to your opinion, please do not embellish it with insulting comments, it detracts from your point and starts pointless internet fights.
TzeentchForPresident and Freakiq there is also no reason to respond in kind and make the issue larger than it was.

Therefore I have deleted a dozen posts and hope that you can continue your discussion with insinuating that other members are immature or have other less desirable traits.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition

Why do you feel the need to treat everyone on this forum like a child?

Yes, some terms were bandied around that some people might have taken slight offence to. No one was addressed directly, no bones were broken and no one got hurt.

Anyway, pm sent to relevant parties. Apologies to anyone who was genuinely annoyed. I thought we were having an interesting discussion and that we were all man enough to get over a few harsh words. Evidently Warseer mods don't think we're capable of that though.

swordwind
11-04-2008, 22:08
I cant believe a discussion which basically ammounts to "am I allowed to paint a usually pink marine green?" has gone on for this long and stirred up such trouble.

gamer5
11-04-2008, 22:15
I was surprised too, i thought I'd have maybe three or four replies.
also, I'd like to think my question was a little less simple than that. more of a 'your thoughts on the matter'.
also, someone mentioned greater demon conversions on the US site. could someone please post a link to that if you know were it is?
thanks

AdmiralDick
12-04-2008, 08:30
the article in question can be found here (http://us.games-workshop.com/games/40k/daemonhunters/painting/daemons/default.htm). its on converting Daemonhunter advesary Greater Daemons, so they are supposed to represent undivided daemons and a lot of them are specifically designed to go with an army that isn't Chaos Space Marines. some of them are pretty cool. my particular favourit is Mangleash.