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Treadhead_1st
10-04-2008, 15:42
I'm looking for a 3rd (and final) Fantasy army, something that's going to be different from my Bretonnians and High Elves.

Orcs are one contender for this.

I've tried to build a balanced, mixed force of Orcs and Goblins, and I'm wondering what you think of the army, and how it would be used. There are a few things I'm not too sure on, and hence I seek advice.

Please let me know what you think of this:

Lords

Orc Warboss: Ulag's Akrit Axe, Shield, Heavy Armour, Umm's Best Boss 'At, Nibbla's 'Itty Ring. Mounted on a Boar.
253

Heroes

Orc Shaman: Level 2, Dispel Scroll & Power Stone.
150

Black Orc Big Boss: BSB, Heavy Armour, Boar & Mork's Spirit Totem.
180

Night Goblin Big Boss: Wollopa's One Hit Wunda, Spear, Shield, Light Armour, Great Cave Squig & Brimstone Bauble.
126

Core

23 Orc Boyz: Choppas, Shields & Full Command.
168

22 Orc Boyz: Choppas, Shields & Full Command.
162

10 Arrer Boyz: Musician.
65

10 Arrer Boyz: Musician.
65

24 Night Goblins: Hand Weapons, Shields, Musician & 3x Fanatic.
151

20 Night Goblins: Hand Weapons, Shields, Musician & Nets.
99

7 Wolf Riders: Spears, Shields & Musician.
90

Special

2x Spear Chukkas.
70

Orc Boar Chariot.
80

Orc Boar Chariot.
80

7 Squig Hoppers.
105

Rare

Goblin Doom Diver.
80

2 Trolls.
80

2004 (4 over, oops!)

131 Models + 3 Artillery Teams

Plan:

Warboss rides with the Trolls (they're modelled as his "bodyguards").
Shaman goes in the 23-Orc unit to deploy 6x4.
BSB goes in the 22-Orc unit to deploy 6x4.
Goblin Boss goes alongside the Squig Hoppers.

The Boyz are each flanked by an Arrer Boy unit, who aim to counter-charge enemy in the flank (the shooting is just a bonus - I don't expect them to do anything, and prefer them to do SOMETHING on a turn I can't flank, hence Bows and not another unit of Boyz). On a hill behind (we usually have a hill in DZs in my store) is the Doom Diver. The idea is the BSB can cover all the units, and provide magic defence, while the Shaman adds a bit more, and might get a spell off with the Power Stone.

Chariots back up the Orc Boyz to add more CC punch. Probably on the opposite flanks ofe each unit to the Arrer Boyz.

Slightly away, are the 2 NG units. 24 nearer the Boyz, the 20 on it's flank. Both deployed 5x4 (the 24 unit just has a few extra Gobbos to kill before loosing a rank). The idea is the smaller unit is on the flank so that any enemy units trying to lure out Fanatics can be caught, netted and tied down - and the Fanatics (hopefully) aren't released from the other unit.

Supporting this ar the Trolls, who are joined by the Warboss (so the Gobbos get better leadership, and the Trolls stand a better chance with Stupidity) - adding a bit of hitting power to the weaker line.

On the extreme flank are the 2x Spear Chukkas, who intend to shoot diagonally, the Wolf Riders, who hunt War Machines, and the Squig Hoppers (+ Boss), who are there for havoc and also hunting war machines etc.

I included the Wolves just to have a reliably-moving unit (squigs might not make it, if movement is poorly rolled).


So what do you think of the list/plan?

A few things I'm wondering:

I like having a suicide-character and a fun element (NG Boss on Squig), but wonder if I might be better served by a NG Shaman instead (more Magic)?

Would be either in the 24-NG to aid Fanatics (with a few 'Shrooms) or in a Wolf Chariot as a back-up.


Also, I don't know if I should include the Wolf Riders - I might just take more Squig Hoppers (as my theme is the normal-Goblins think they're "smarter" than the Night Goblins by taking the "safe" role of Artillery crew and not getting involved at the pointy end - so Wolves don't really fit, yet they're rather good...)


Another alternative is to take a Great Shaman instead of the Warboss, and drop the Warboss to a Big Boss. Provides better Magic, and not a great loss in combat ability (loosing the Ring means I can still take the gear I wanted to on a Big Boss)?


Any thoughts would be really appreciated!

Avian
10-04-2008, 15:53
So what do you think of the list/plan?
I think your Night Goblin infantry units are too expensive and that the Wolf Riders should definitely not have shields (and 7 is probably too many).
I'd also deploy the Shaman in the same unit as the BSB, as that makes him immune to squabbling. Otherwise it sounds okay. :)



I like having a suicide-character and a fun element (NG Boss on Squig), but wonder if I might be better served by a NG Shaman instead (more Magic)?
Up to you, but I think you currently have too little magic to get much through and yet you still spend too many points on it.



Also, I don't know if I should include the Wolf Riders - I might just take more Squig Hoppers (as my theme is the normal-Goblins think they're "smarter" than the Night Goblins by taking the "safe" role of Artillery crew and not getting involved at the pointy end - so Wolves don't really fit, yet they're rather good...)
At least three units of gobbo fast cavalry is highly recommended. The unit you list, though, is as mentioned not very good and can be dropped if you don't intend to get more wolf/spider riders anyway.



Another alternative is to take a Great Shaman instead of the Warboss, and drop the Warboss to a Big Boss. Provides better Magic, and not a great loss in combat ability (loosing the Ring means I can still take the gear I wanted to on a Big Boss)?
A bit random and not really something I'd recommend. I'm far too fond of that Leadership 9.

Treadhead_1st
10-04-2008, 21:51
Ah, thanks for dropping by Avian. I've been reading the various tactics on (your? - the one you post helpful links to) site, and that's what steered me towards a balanced force.

I'm going to drop the Nets on the smaller Gobbo unit - so I can have a (very) cheap re-directing/tar-pit unit (might hold, with the General nearby. If not...oh well, they're now only 64 points).

I think I'll ditch the Wolf Riders (shock horror! I'm a big Tolkein fan, so I like the concept a lot) as I don't intend to get more units of them (unless there is nothing better to spend points on).

So, having dropped those, and boosted my Squig Hoppers up to a might 10-strong ('if you're going to take something for fun, go whole hog' a friend used to tell me - and it's something I'm keen to try out), and leaving me with 96 points.


How do you suggest I go more magic-heavy with this force (without taking a Great Shaman - I see the advantage of Ld9 in the army) - or should I just go purely defensive (drop down ot Level 1, and take 2x Scroll)? Not too keen on 'Scroll Caddies' and feel the Orcs should have some magic to bandy 'round, as it's one of the (somewhat comic) aspects that drew me to the Orcs in the first place.

Any more advice would be really handy, and thanks for everything you've suggested so far (and also on that website site)

Gralph!?!
11-04-2008, 00:20
well, first off, the way your army looks is a little funny to me.

the main thing i would try to do is to keep the general close to the battle line which is hard to do when he is with the trolls up in the front lines which is a bad place for him to be honestly, yes they kill a fair amount but if they die then you are fairly screwed since you lose alot of combat staying power as you will for the most part have leadership 6-7 if you lose combat even with a re-roll it is still a bad thing to have for a break test.

magic defense seems fine since you also have the spirit totem so you have alot of dispel dice but you will not get a whole lot of spells off to be honest since in a 2000pt game you will often be facing at least 2 mages.

the units are fine as i can see, although i would have a small unit of orcs with 2 choppas with a unit champion maybe even a standard and have the 2 larger blocks on either side of those units that way you can protect both units from flank charges with one unit it also means that if any dedicated flank chargers would be in need to get through a big block of infantry instead of a **** weak unit and the small unit can still cause panic which if your general is running off ahead will be very bad indeed.

the wolf riders do really need to lose there spears and deffinantly 1 of there number that way they are still cheap and can manouvre really well. a second unit of the same would be a good way to go although personally i am opting for short bows but i think the spears will suit you better for flank charging. also if possible a unit of spider riders are a great unit since although slower ignore terrain so can be used to get past the enemy alot easier than normal fast cav.

the squig hoppers are a fun little unit but remember that the brimstone baubles are counted towards combat res for both sides so be careful how you use him hell maybe just give him the one hit wonder and the baubles so he will die but in suicide bomber style. the trolls will need to have another in the unit to truly be effective a unit of two doesn't realiable have enough attacks or unit strength to win a combat even with the character ou would be going on straight kills rather than static combat resolution.

the netters are a little pointless on a small unit, while a cool little upgrade are made almost redundant when you suddenly realise that your opponents units are always: scarier, better fighters, stronger, tougher, have better armour, can mince you in combat easily and will most likely break you like a twing being sat on by a heavy child. the only times netters are useful is if the unit is a big unit, with spears and a big boss with a good weapon, that way you can challenge and make it a somewhat even fight against the character as well as make it so that you get alot of attacks back against the enemy since with reduced strength they will be hard pressed to kill your unit fast enough to stop all attacks so a unit of 30 with a fighty character are what are needed for netters to be good.

3 fanatics are eceesive on a single unit, i would put 2 in each or a single one in each and use them to guard flanks as the threat of fanatics is the best deterrant and your enemy will be force to recognise that or be pulverised by the possible threat. for me personally, a fanatic is a little expensive for something that will more often or not be killed or kill your own army since you are nearly doubling a small unit of goblins for 3 more goblins that might kill something but most likely attack you or do bugger all.

with the chariots be sure to have them run together and charge the same targets, not many infantry in the game can stand up to 2 chariots hitting them, especiailly boar chariots where you would have a minimum of 8 strength 5 attacks and 4 strength 4 attacks. so these are my tactical thoughts are army suggestions but they work with my play style of pratically anything can be disposable in the face of the enemy so take these words with a grain of salt.

good luck with the horrible crushing defeats that will happen to you or your enemy which is how i have seen orcs work.

Lord Dan
11-04-2008, 03:45
What the hell are "Arrer Boyz"? ..oh wait, yeah, sorry. I easily forget about things that are completely useless. I would drop them, and probably burn any evidence that could potentially connect you with them.

I wouldn't put your general with 2 trolls. In fact I wouldn't put your general with 40 trolls. Even with his leadership they're still mathematically failing their stupidity once a game, which means he's stuck shuffling his feet. Also bear in mind that shots fired into that unit have to be randomized, and there's a 1/3 chance he's getting smashed in the face with a bolt. There's also no look out sir from cannonballs.

The best O&G armies I've seen don't use fanatics at all. It's obviously up to you, it's just something to consider.

Dropping your wolf riders is not a good solution. I would have at least 2 units of them, and would feel comfortable with 3-4 units of five with musicians. These are your flanking rank-breakers. There's nothing scarier than fast cav with movement 9.

bambamBIGILO
11-04-2008, 04:16
For a Fun suicide bomber make him a goblin BB in a chariot and with brimstone (and the one hit wunda if u dont mind the point cost) its hilarious when it works but a least funny if it dosent.

Arrer boys under no circumstances should they appear.. EVER... IMO.

Use the points to boost the NG to units of 25, 24 for the boyz in 6x4 blocks is pretty good.

Since u have a lack of magic if you can squeeze in a giant it will take alot of fire from shooting and magic and let tou get into HtH where u want to be.

Treadhead_1st
11-04-2008, 09:36
Wow, lots of comments...I'm going to explain why I made the choices I did, so you can see what I was aiming for (be it right or wrong)...

The General would be giving Leadership to the line containing the Gobbos, and probably one of the Orc units too. My hope is (and I'm probably wrong on this) that the Goblins take a charge, unleashing a barrage of Fanatics, hold, thanks to the General's Leadership, and then the enemy gets a Warboss and a couple of Trolls in the flank. The Warboss with th Trolls is a risk, due to stupidity as Lord Dan mentioned, but it's an Orc army, where most things have inherent risks built in. I couldn't think of a way to have an effective Warboss AND stop the whole flank of my army collapsing (as its mostly Gobbos - and by battleling of Boyz is already fairly killy, if everything works [but when does it ever?]), so put a hard-hitting unit there - and it's the General to provide Leadership.

Magic is an issue I always have trouble with (as in deciding whether to invest in it, or go defensive - and I HATE Caddies with a passion, but see that sometimes there just isn't a better option). I did mention in my second post I'd like some help with this - either getting more defensive, or boost my offense. I'd like to use the magic, as getting pasted by it in 6th Edition was one of the things that made me like the Orcs (along with the general character and way you can expend the Gobbos - and squigs.), so would be nice to see it used...but if there is little hope of getting that into the army, then so be it.

I use the Arrer Boyz as my flank protectors - they're not much worse than standard Boyz in a bash-up, and that's the primary aim. The Arrer part is kinda nice to have, as occasionally, thanks to failed charges, or want-to-be flankers, I can get some short-ranged shots off, and might to a teeney bit of damage. Plus they add variety to the list. My local opponents also seem worried by them - as they never see them (get comments like "Wait, Orcs can get Archers?"), which seems to be a useful thing to have.

I'm thinking of dropping the Wolf Riders totally. As Avian mentioned, multiple units are better (this is my experience too), but for theme reasons I don't want to many of them, so it's probably best to leave them alone (as mentioned in my second post), and (somewhat risky) hope the Squig Hoppers can do some damage instead. The cannon ball to the face though could be an issue, good catch.

Already loosing the Netters (again, mentioned in my second post) as they made the unit cost too much.

The 3-in-1 were just for a bit of fun. As the enemy approaches the flank of my line (where it seems local players like to keep fanatics), none get released (smaller unit). As they approach the larger unit with a combat-oriented unit of theirs, they get bombarded by multiples. I can mix things up from game to game by shuffling the ratio around (such as 1:2 unit:unit), to keep people guessing.


I was essentially shooting for an army with expendable Gobbos - plus Fanatics, a presence of Squigs and trolls, and some of the random Magic, while still having an 'Orcy' core of good, fighty troops [and a presence of some shooty troops too, even if they'll be used more as combat support than actual shooting. After all, some Orcs are 'intelligunt' enough (as far as they believe, anyway) to launch a pointy stick from a bendy stick]. These are the main draws towards the Orcs for me - a slightly comical aspect, while still being good fighters, and potentially causing mayhem to both sides.

Any advice on how to get more towards these ideals with an effective army, as it seems I've failed here?

Fredmans
11-04-2008, 11:24
My hope is (and I'm probably wrong on this) that the Goblins take a charge, unleashing a barrage of Fanatics, hold, thanks to the General's Leadership, and then the enemy gets a Warboss and a couple of Trolls in the flank. The Warboss with th Trolls is a risk, due to stupidity as Lord Dan mentioned, but it's an Orc army, where most things have inherent risks built in.

Two trolls negate ranks just as well without the warboss. I guess it depends on what races you use to fight, but since I play Empire and Dwarves regularly, my Warboss would never see the light of turn 3 without the possibility of a look-out-sir roll. I run two single trolls as my Rare selection, and I like it a lot. It provides me with two fear-causing dispensable units that do not panic my other troops whenever I roll that critical 1 on the animosity table. If things go well, they can support charges.

I would advise you to stick the warboss with the orc boyz. Orc boyz might look potent on paper, but they are far more resilient than they are deadly. Infantry with one attack will not reliably break their opponents. They usually kill too few. Orc boyz supported by a war boss is a completely different story.

Good luck
/Fredmans