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Captain Micha
11-04-2008, 00:15
I have a birthday coming up and I was asked that question about what I'd like for my birthday. I've been eyeballing Lizardmen since I got into this hobby something about the models really look nice to me. I hear that they are behind the powercurve of the game and have some really well pants units.

Should I ask for a lizard men battalion and rule book?

How do you rate the lizard men up against say.. the Empire? (who are another favorite of mine look and feel wise.)

Lord_Ribbit
11-04-2008, 00:26
My first Fantasy Army is Lizardmen and I love them. The are almost perfectly balanced. Very fun to play, and paint Fluff is awesome and the models are, imo, soem of the best.

I vote Lizzies.

- Lord Ribbit -

mudcow304
11-04-2008, 00:30
If you like magic then the Slann are amongst the most powerful mages in the game. But their units are not not so much pants as just a little over priced in points and a bit dull (read limited variety).

However, if you like a large variety of units and highly tactical movement play then the Empire might be better, their wizards aren't to be under estimated either, if for nothing other than sheer variety available.

Personally I have collected both races in the past and found the Empire kept my interest for longer; mainly because there is IMHO more variety to be had when modelling and painting an Empire Army. The detachment rules for the Empire are potentially extremely powerful but do take a while to master.

Have you tried going down to your local store and play testing either of the forces? I personally really rate this as a way of getting an in road to a new force. Alternativly I have been known to get the army book and then play test it using counters etc to see whether or not they fit my style.

Havesome
11-04-2008, 00:33
I would say Lizardmen. Empire are probably ahead of them in the power curve, though. They have a lot more shooting than Lizardmen, so if that is something that interests you, you might want to go that way. I like the magic phase though, and the Slann is one of my favorite models, so I always go that way. Both can be great fun, though.

mudcow304
11-04-2008, 00:41
I have to agree the Slann was one of the most enjoyable minis to paint in the whole GW range. I'm really not sure why painting a big toad was fun but it was most satisfying.:wtf:

theunwantedbeing
11-04-2008, 00:43
Lizards are the better army to have.
Empire are so unfathomably dull...perhaps the most dull army in the game.
Yay men with guns in a fantasy setting.

Nowhere near as good as brightly coloured lizards ^_^

Bretonnian Lord
11-04-2008, 02:45
Lizardmen are really cool.

My best friend collects them, they're fun to play AND they get big dinosaurs. :D

Captain Micha
11-04-2008, 03:04
I am probably going to order the book and do some proxies (heaven knows I've got enough minis to proxy an army hehe) but I am curious as to how people feel about Lizards vs the Empire.

Bretonnia was out of the running almost as soon as I bought the book. (no local store :cries: ) I regretted it on some level ever since. I just can't get behind the army. (I have too many mobile 40k armies I guess) so an entire cavalry army really doesn't do it for me at this point.

daemonkin
11-04-2008, 08:30
I'm gonna say lizzies too.

They will be my next army, my first good army. If you look at the 'good' armies:
dwarves - not my taste
high elves - friend playing them plus too much white to paint
wood elves - friend plays and not my style
empire - maybe
lizzies - big blocks of hard as nails lizards with skirmishers who can shoot backed up by large flying toad who is magicked to the eyeballs... well you get my drift.

After playing for 10 years without a shooting phase (slaanesh mortal and vampires) I'm looking forward to participating in a few new phases!

And with all the special markings you can give saurus units you have a variety of painting and modelling options available as well as different tactics available.

D.

Fraggzy
11-04-2008, 12:18
personaly i think that lizzardmen are cooler

destroyerlord
11-04-2008, 12:45
Lizards have sweet as models, and really cool imagery. The rocket launcher ruined empire for me. The steam tank was a non-rulebook ultra rare so could be tolerated...but not a rocket launcher.
Lizardmen have dinosaurs too, the carnosaur is a fantastic model.(much better than say, karl franz)

mudcow304
11-04-2008, 19:28
Hmmm the carnasaur was almost as fun to paint as the magical mystery toad.

I found the lizardman metals really good but found the plastics hopelessly tedious to paint. But that's just my opinion.

ReveredChaplainDrake
11-04-2008, 20:32
If you haven't started Lizards yet, it's not too late to repent. Lizards are horrendously behind the 8-ball in terms of army power, almost as bad off as Ogres. Lizards have no decent-ranged firepower (outside Salamanders, and possibly Chameleons) and their combat troops are surprisingly poor fighters. The only reason Saurus enjoy such a nasty reputation is because they could be half a mile from the General and still never run from combat. Plus, Saurus models are incredibly frustrating beacuse their tails, back spines, and awkwardly-oversized heads and shields make ranking them up a nightmare. Still though, if you find the draw to Lizardmen too alluring, defenitely take up the Sacred Host of Quetzl. That crap Heavens Lore isn't worthy of Yahoo Horoscopes, and when your Saurus can't fight worth tar, it helps when they have 3+ saves in CC yet still remain core.

Empire are a much better beginner's army because there's nothing they're really bad at. They have movement (Outriders, Pistoliers, and Knights), plenty of magic (killer magic items like the Ring of Volens, Aldreds Casket of Sorcery, and the Von Stat-switch Speculum, cheap mages, and Warrior-Priests), respectable firepower and War Machines, and lots of Static CR to fight and win CC with.

Personally though, I wouldn't restrict myself to just these two armies. I actually find Elves an ideal starting army because their superb movement, reliable shooting, unparalleled magic, decent Leadership, and low model count make them ideal for a beginner to get a good grasp of the game without getting walloped all the time or spending a ton of money. They also come in three different flavors: Good (Asur), Bad (Druchii), and Weedy (Asrai).

Urgat
11-04-2008, 22:18
the carnosaur is a fantastic model.(much better than say, karl franz)

To be fair, though, there's like 15 years between the two models. I've seen more fair comparisons.

Ben
12-04-2008, 00:55
The big strengths in the lizardmen list is slann magic and skinks. I've butchered wood elves before using the skink buzzsaw, but I do play southlands.
Use skinks in units of 12, and get one or two for every saurus unit you get. For core units if you get the regiment box, plus one box of saurus and one of skinks it gives you six core choices and a special, and that is all the core you'll need for most games ( 2 20strong saurus blocks, 4 units of 12 skinks).
Salamanders are great. Chameleon skinks are fun.

The Empire model range is very nice, but the amount you have to paint is substantially larger (large enough it can be a pain) to do an effective infantry army.

A lizardman force can be built around some centrepiece items (Slann, temple guard, carnosaur, kroxigor, saurus cavalry) with nowhere near as many models to make up the rest of the force.

Skinks are cheap, effective, and nice models. I've got a 1000 point lizardman force I get out for multiplayer battles, and they usually do quite well. I should paint up enough to give me 2000 though.

Lord Raneus
12-04-2008, 04:23
I agree with everyone who's said that Lizzies are a bit more unique than the Empire. They're Mayan dinosaurs!

Plus, the new Empire models' designs don't look as good as the old ones, IMO. The tight pants and bare feet look much worse than the poofy 6th-ed uniforms, in my opinion.

Valadar
12-04-2008, 06:08
Honestly, it depends. I play Empire and VC, because I love the fluff that associates with it. I suggest you also go with which models appeal to you the most. I particularly don't like dinosaurs that much, so lizzies never interested me.

My best friend plays them and loves them. One thing I've noticed is that there's some variation that can be achieved with the spawnings, which is pretty neat. The fact that they are strong on psychology is also quite nice.

Empire wise, I like how detachments affect the tactical style of play. I also find that the empire has a lot of variety, which makes it less redundant. I have to agree with one comment made earlier though. The standard infantry model isn't exactly the nicest one, however, I find the other models to be quite nice, such as great swords, knights and pistoleers.

Not sure if this has helped much but I think both are pretty decent armies and that you should just go with what story and model appeals to you the most. In my case, I'll vote for empire since that's the army I play ;)

Lijacote
12-04-2008, 06:22
They will be my next army, my first good army. If you look at the 'good' armies:
dwarves - not my taste
high elves - friend playing them plus too much white to paint
wood elves - friend plays and not my style
empire - maybe
lizzies - big blocks of hard as nails lizards with skirmishers who can shoot backed up by large flying toad who is magicked to the eyeballs... well you get my drift.


A fair evaluation. If I was the author of this thread, I'd be totally convinced. :)

Voltaire
12-04-2008, 08:50
The Empire are the more diverse of the two in terms of all round amazing but for me the Lizardmen are the bomb. Their Lord choices alone can quite easily be the best at what they do and 'own' most other armies.

Captain Micha
12-04-2008, 14:22
Lots of love for the Lizards, I was expecting empire to make a showing. *L* And that toad ..just looks awesome.


Okay, most of their hero choices... wow. *L*

So they are easily one of the best at the magic phase? I have not really played all that much fantasy but I have quite abit of 40k experience. I like armies that play differently than what everyone else has and from what I am hearing so far the lizards seem to fit the bill. (and look good while doing it)

Though, the over all assessment seems to say they are abit underpowered? Any units in particular I should avoid fielding if I go for the lizards?

Finnigan2004
12-04-2008, 14:52
Lizards are great, and I'm not sure why people are saying that they are overpowered. If you want a tough army or a fluff army, lizards can accomodate. In terms of characters, Second gen slaan are so good that if you bring one, you can probably expect some hate. A JSOD is also ridiculously good for the points. In terms of units, skinks are underpriced and salamanders are as well. They are very, very good. Kroxigors are also very good, as are terradons. Sauruses are a little bit overpriced for what they do, and unfortunately many people who want a tough list leave them at home.

I suspect that many of the people who complain about them being less powerful probably use a particular build with units that are not optimal (carnosaurs, stegadons, cold one riders, etc.). This is fine, but just because those units are not perfect does not make the entire list underpowered. It can perform well in tournaments with certain builds, although the internal balance is somewhat off. There are certainly lizardman builds that are as tough as nails.

McMullet
12-04-2008, 15:24
I play Lizards and have done for a few years, and I have a regular opponent who plays Empire.

The Lizardmen are a fun army to play. The problem with Saurus Warriors is that they are elite infantry whose main skill is taking on weak infantry - they are fairly tough but won't stand up well to hard opponents. There's nothing so much fun as fighting Skaven Slaves, Zombies or Men-at-Arms with Saurus Warriors; but if they come up against Chaos Warriors, Dwarfs or Grave Guard their extra attack is not nearly as useful. That said, used wisely Saurus Warriors can be an excellent unit as long as you don't let them get out of position and flanked (I do this a lot, sadly. :p). Skinks are very good for their points but an army of Skirmishers is pretty boring for both players, and really isn't what Warhammer is about. The option of ruling the magic phase is fun, because even the basic 4th Generation Slann with a Skink Priest or two can do a lot. Dinosaurs are also cool.

I find Empire very fun to play against; The profusion of cheap units (especially detachments) can make it very hard for CC armies to build up Victory Points against you, even if they kill a few blocks of infantry. This requires clever manoeuvring which makes for a good tactical game. The variety of troop types in an Empire army means you can theme your list a lot as well.

Go for Lizardmen if you like a smaller, more elite army with dinosaurs. Choose Empire if you have the time and inclination to paint twice as many models and want a balanced (all-phase) army.

Wolf-Tau
14-04-2008, 04:27
I have a birthday coming up and I was asked that question about what I'd like for my birthday. I've been eyeballing Lizardmen since I got into this hobby something about the models really look nice to me. I hear that they are behind the powercurve of the game and have some really well pants units.

Should I ask for a lizard men battalion and rule book?

How do you rate the lizard men up against say.. the Empire? (who are another favorite of mine look and feel wise.)


I almost thought I posted this thread.

I am having the same problem. I have a NEW Empire army in the box (starter army with burning Wizzy) but the more I read the Lizard dex, the more I like the Lizard army.

I jumped the gun getting the Empire box, (new release at the time which is still NEW in the box)

WT

ReveredChaplainDrake
14-04-2008, 18:04
Lots of love for the Lizards, I was expecting empire to make a showing. *L* And that toad ..just looks awesome.


Okay, most of their hero choices... wow. *L*

So they are easily one of the best at the magic phase? I have not really played all that much fantasy but I have quite abit of 40k experience. I like armies that play differently than what everyone else has and from what I am hearing so far the lizards seem to fit the bill. (and look good while doing it)

Though, the over all assessment seems to say they are abit underpowered? Any units in particular I should avoid fielding if I go for the lizards?

So you decided on Lizards, eh? Chance of repentance: 50% -> 0.00001%; tsk, tsk, tsk...

The magic phase is more or less a joke in this game. You could have every 2nd Gen Slann in the Old World + Kroak, but everybody knows that Undead rule the Magic phase in this game, now more than ever with those new VCs. Compared to them, Slann are but mediocre. However, that said, at least Lizards stack up against them at all. Compared to Undead, everybody but Teclis and Slanns (and Morathi on a good day; ok, a very good day!) suffers a complete 100% shut-down. Even then, Slanns just lock them in stalemates of dispelling each other.

IMO, this is rather fortunate because the actual Frogger on valium part of the model is not particularly imposing. (Unless you're talking about the Palanquin, which is a pretty good model, if not a nightmare to assemble.) The Saurus models are so much better, and are in fact some of the best Characters the Lizards have access to because they have the dispel potency of a Lv2 mage (Spawn of Tepok = practically mandatory) while still having the fighty potential up there with a Chaos Lord, yet without being too awfully overpriced for what it can do. (And if you go the JSoD route, they're a real peach of a bargain!)

A warning about the Lizardmen models, though it sort of applies to anyone. The coolness of a footblock infantry model is inversely proportional to the ease with which they rank up. And since Saurus Warriors are very cool, dynamic, and imposing models, ranking them is such a pain in the butt because if you glue their shields in improperly, they start butting into each other's sides and fronts.

Tactically, leave Saurus Cav at home. They are simply irredeemable. At least Kroxigors scare the crap out of people (as in the players, not their models). Saurus Cav don't even do that much. They make good mounts for magic banners, but so do Slanns.

Also, if you don't have Monsters, Skink Chiefs are altogether pointless because the only things they're good for are Stegadon Helms (which give bonuses inferior to Saurus Generals), Daggers of Sotek (a pointless, highly-overpriced item), and Cloak of Feathers (as a WSoD Warmachine-killer).

Of tactics I've tried with Lizards that don't work:
-isolated Saurus blocks w/ speedy support: enemy runs circles around you, marchblocking and flanking are all too easy; a noob's first army always tends to be this one due to how the Battallion Box is setup

-Saurus bulldozer w/ Slann: doesn't work against anything w/ gunpowder

-Saurus bulldozer w/ Slann + Skinks: blocks your own charges and the opponents shoot over your Skinks by standing on a hill; doesn't work unless you load down on Kroxigors in lieu of Saurus or face a shooty army without hills (like that'll ever happen...)

-Saurus bulldozer + JSoD + Steed of Shadows: doesn't work b/c it requires opponent to be idiot / noob in their Dispel phase, single Saurus often bounce off anybody that matters (except JSoDs, who just die)

-Saurus bulldozer + Scarvets on Cold Ones (1 joined to each Saurus block): effective fear causing / immunity without the drawbacks of Spawn of Tlaz, explosively-powerful punch, shooters pick out Scarvets without Look Out Sir, vulnerable to magic, could possibly void magical vulnerability with a Sacred Host of Tepok list but I haven't tried this before

-Skink Priest magestorm: Heavens is crap, Skink Priests are generally overpriced and pointless casters, joining Priests to Skink units means that the Skinks won't be as expendable as charge / frenzy bait (this mistake costed me badly in my last game :cries:), poor Ld all around, could possibly work with Southlands in low-pt games

Captain Micha
16-04-2008, 04:35
Thanks everyone for helping me with this thread. hopefully I'll get the lizards for my birthday.

I will keep this thread subscribed since I've gotten some good pointers in it. Thanks to everyone again.

Wolf-Tau
17-04-2008, 06:36
So you decided on Lizards, eh? Chance of repentance: 50% -> 0.00001%; tsk, tsk, tsk...



Hmm some pretty negative comments RCDrake. (I feel like holding on to my Empire Army and not ebay it ) :(

Are there any tactics that do work for the Lizards?

How about some input on what to buy for the first 1k. maybe 2k. and what might be a waste of $$$

Thanks everyone
WT

mudcow304
17-04-2008, 10:16
The Battalion box is probably the best starting point. Two units of Saurus warriors, two of skinks and a unit of cavalry. That's five units for 50. Not a bad starting point!

Thorgrim Brokenfoot
18-04-2008, 07:35
Lizzardmen rules all... except dwarfs and Tomb Kings, end of discussion :D

Devil-Dice
18-04-2008, 13:25
I vote for the scaly ones, not only do the have the coolest and hardest basic troop in the game (imo) the saurus they also have giant sleepy frogs that spit fire and fart lightning!

On a serious note though for such an old list there actually really well balanced (except for skinks and salamanders) and can be customised to face up to any situation with sacred spawnings and the slanns ability to pick magic from whichever and however many lores he fancies. The cold blooded rule works really well with the army and contrasts perfectly with the low initiative value of the army not tomention how wonderfully fluffy it is.

Besides why would you wanna play a 'fantasy' wargame without a vibrant fantastical army, leave the humans to the WW2 recreation wargame players!

ReveredChaplainDrake
18-04-2008, 13:38
Besides why would you wanna play a 'fantasy' wargame without a vibrant fantastical army, leave the humans to the WW2 recreation wargame players!

Well, because when those "WW2 recreation wargame players" bring their gunpowder based armies against our Lizardmen, we get the royal shafting of a lifetime, that's why... (I still don't get it. What good do screening Skinks do when the enemy crams 80 Handgunners, 4 Cannons and 2 Hellblasters onto a couple of hills?)

I can think of one strategy that might work, but it requires Vanilla Lizardmen. Take a 2nd Gen Slann and 2 Lv2 Skink Priests, and everything else is the most expensive units you can muster, including Temple Guard, Jungle Swarms, a Stegadon, Chameleons, and ranked Kroxigors. Join the Skink Priests to Skink units and use their Telepathy to allow the Slann to cast his magic while hiding behind a tree. The opponent won't be able to touch you (except for your Skink units...) but you'll zap them apart from across the board with as many of the offensive Heavens-based spells (unlimited range; Comet doesn't even need LoS!) as possible. Pure points-denial.

soulcrusher
18-04-2008, 17:22
to start with an orcs, empire or even dwarves army is best because they are good in every aspect and are easy , well fairly easy to start / play with.

for me its high elves any day, there is a mass of fluff about them and so what if there hard to paint? they totally rock on the field of battle