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Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 07:39
Hi!
There was something "wrong" with my mail order and I got Codex Chaos Deamons way too early (yesterday) but since I have it before moast of you....Is there anything you are wondering about them.

By the way it is a great book with lots of background and great artwork.

Eulenspiegel
11-04-2008, 08:41
You post this without scanned pages? ;)

Edit:
Maybe you can give us an overview,
- how you think the army plays
- how it will do on the tabletop
- which combinations, points appeared to you at first glance
- how the army list is thought through
- is there any obviously broken stuff?

Things like that.

TheDudeGuyMan
11-04-2008, 08:44
And why have you not leaded this onto the internets? :)

Mojaco
11-04-2008, 09:43
How is the background? Are there relevations of any kind? Don't spoil 'em though :)

Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 09:46
You post this without scanned pages? ;)
I have no scanner so I canīt scann pages sorry

[
Edit:
Maybe you can give us an overview,
- how you think the army plays
- how it will do on the tabletop
- which combinations, points appeared to you at first glance
- how the army list is thought through
- is there any obviously broken stuff?

Things like that.

I think the army will play fairly well but not great but there are a few things that I think might be overpowered for example an ranged attack that transforms an enemy into a spawn if it fails a Tougness test (no saves of any kind allowed but only works on things with a T characteristic) and the Phlegm (soulgrinder weapon upgrade) that has range 36 Strenght 8 AP 3 Assault 1, Large blast and only costs +25pts and can be used in addition to his harvester whit range 24 S4 AP5 Assault 6. As This is going to be my first 40k army I have nothing to compare to really which leaves the two first questions hard to answer.

The first that appeared to me (rulewise) was the boon of mutaion (turn enemy to spawn as described above) and that it only costs 30pts. The armylist is well thought through but the special unit upgrades (the changeling and Karnak) just feels weird and underpowered (not for their points but for being kind of special characters). It has alot of fluff and is a really interesting read (Havenīt finished it jet thou).

As I said it is hard for me to see if things are broken so if you ask things about the rules I can tell you and you can decide whenether itīs broken or not.

The Soulgrinder was a little bit dissapointing in CC as it only has 4 attacks they are at S6 but still.


How is the background? Are there relevations of any kind? Don't spoil 'em though :)
The backround reavels things that were not said before including the appearence of each of the mayor powers realms in detail.


And why have you not leaded this onto the internets? :)
I have limited time and one forum will be enough.

Melchor
11-04-2008, 09:48
Consider me subscribed! :D

How's the artwork? Mostly new art? Mostly old art?

Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 09:52
Consider me subscribed! :D

How's the artwork? Mostly new art? Mostly old art?

Iīm not sure about what art existed fopr them before but each of the unit entries artworks seems to be drawn by the same guy and I think they are new. Iīm not sure about all of the other artworks thou. The pictures looks great however no matter how old they are.

Brimstone
11-04-2008, 09:53
I know it is intended to be humorous but we take a dim view of copyright breaches on Warseer.

Please don't promote this on our forum.

The Warseer Inquisition

ChaosBeast
11-04-2008, 09:59
what are the stats of the LoC? i ask as im drawn to the model and would like to buy it now but i write an armylist first then buy models. it would be helpful

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 10:05
what are the stats of the LoC? i ask as im drawn to the model and would like to buy it now but i write an armylist first then buy models. it would be helpful

We can't post complete statlines. But I can say it's the worst value for points of all greater daemons, if you ask me.

Ravenheart
11-04-2008, 10:06
The first that appeared to me (rulewise) was the boon of mutaion (turn enemy to spawn as described above) and that it only costs 30pts.


Isn't Boon of Mutation essentaly the same as Gift of Chaos from C:CSM (apart from being a shooting instead of a psykic power, that is)?

Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 10:20
The inqusition have silenced me search elsewhere for answers or contact me at Leogun_1991@hotmail.com

Brimstone
11-04-2008, 10:38
The inqusition have silenced me search elsewhere for answers or contact me at Leogun_1991@hotmail.com

:rolleyes:

No I haven't my comments are aimed towards those asking for the codex to be scanned and leaked onto the internet.

Discussing details are fine as long as you don't post complete stat lines, points costs or full rules.

Fay_Redd
11-04-2008, 10:49
until i see proof (in the form on scanned pages) i am going to pick this up and drop it in the bullplop bin. advanced orders dont happen until atleast a few days prior to proper release, so until i see proof i dont believe a word.

IAMNOTHERE
11-04-2008, 11:00
I'm in, give me the normal leadership value please for the majority of troops.

Killmaimburn
11-04-2008, 12:04
Silly question about boon of mutation, does it have a statline (don't list it) and entry for spawn, is it the same as the chaos codex one,(mindless etc) can they be purchased or only created(is it in the spell description or an army list entry).It appears to be missing from mine, cough cough:o and all that;).

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 12:47
until i see proof (in the form on scanned pages) i am going to pick this up and drop it in the bullplop bin. advanced orders dont happen until atleast a few days prior to proper release, so until i see proof i dont believe a word.

:rolleyes:
In all my years on Portnet/Warseer (meaning since '00) someone always got their preorder weeks ahead of time. Every. Single. Codex. It's probably intentional as threads like this are basically free advertising for GW.

Not to mention GW staff, who get the rules early as a matter of course.

So you would do well to get your facts straight before you call someone a liar.

de Selby
11-04-2008, 13:10
Cheers leogun. Can you tell us how the deployment rules work?

Specifically, do you need icons to summon daemons or do they jst DS automatically? I've heard about dividing the force in two; Do they all DS in (in two waves) or does one lot DS and the other lot move on normally?

Or what? I've heard contradictory accounts, and I'm curious as to whether my daemon collection will constitute a viable list (particularly without icons).

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 13:20
Cheers leogun. Can you tell us how the deployment rules work?

You split your list in roughly equal halves, then roll a die. On a 3+, you get the half you want, on a 1-2 you get the other half. This half deep strikes on turn 1 using the normal rules. The rest is in reserve and individual units deep strike when they become available, as normal. Icons act as teleport homers, nothing more, nothing less.

Panzerkanzler
11-04-2008, 13:40
Well, this is good news. Could you tell me if a nurgle army is doable? I don't care about winning every game but is papa nurgle army going to be at least somewhat competetive? Would it be fun to play? Is single chaos faction armies viable? And most important...are there going to be nurglings? I guess many of my questions have been covered before but why sift through all the threads of the last months when I can ask my questions here? ;)

de Selby
11-04-2008, 13:50
Blackfang: :D that's the third different version I've heard. Sounds like I can play my old chaos army in two force org charts, at least.

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 13:57
Well, this is good news. Could you tell me if a nurgle army is doable? I don't care about winning every game but is papa nurgle army going to be at least somewhat competetive? Would it be fun to play? Is single chaos faction armies viable? And most important...are there going to be nurglings? I guess many of my questions have been covered before but why sift through all the threads of the last months when I can ask my questions here? ;)

Nurgle is without a doubt the hardest mono-god army to play, because everything is Slow and Purposeful. I imagine you'd have to Deep Strike very aggressively and try to box your opponent in, otherwise you'll never catch him.

I think Nurgle units would greatly benefit from some Slaaneshy support.

TheKiiier
11-04-2008, 13:57
I think this is not too uncommon seeing as it takes time to make and package the product and to have a large enough supply for full release that they have everything ready long before the "street date". Happens all the time with video games, in fact, it happened to me wherein I got my Tau Empire army box like 3 weeks before anyone else mentioned such here and on the other forums I visit.

deadpool2345
11-04-2008, 14:14
how would a all khorne/all nurgle army battle against an tau empire army? any sneeky tactics or rules (dont post them) that we common folks don't know about??

airmang
11-04-2008, 14:35
Nurgle is without a doubt the hardest mono-god army to play, because everything is Slow and Purposeful. I imagine you'd have to Deep Strike very aggressively and try to box your opponent in, otherwise you'll never catch him.

I think Nurgle units would greatly benefit from some Slaaneshy support.


but wait, nurglings aren't SAP, are fearless, can't be ID, have a 5++ save and cost like a space marine scout with 3-9 per unit. i could see using them to tarpit units until the other nurgle stuff gets there, or you could always use a daemon prince or two to help out.

as for Boon of Mutation, it is exactly like Gift of Chaos(just a shooting power now, must roll to hit). it has a box underneath the entry for it with the stats for spawn, which are exactly like the CSM one, it even gives 40 VP if killed.

all the daemons are LD10, except Fateweaver who is 9

and BlackFang is correct on how you split your force up

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 14:59
how would a all khorne/all nurgle army battle against an tau empire army? any sneeky tactics or rules (dont post them) that we common folks don't know about??

They can both get shooting abilities on their characters (even Khorne) but Nurgle models won't ever get in flamer template range of a Skimmer except on the turn they Deep Strike. Then there's the Heavy Support, where you have Soul Grinders with decent ranged capability and winged Daemon Princes.

Melchor
11-04-2008, 15:21
I get the impression that you can play some sort of a Daemonzilla list am I right?

GD as HQ, Nurglings as Troops and Soulgrinders and Daemon Princes as HS.

Democratus
11-04-2008, 16:09
The Soulgrinder was a little bit dissapointing in CC as it only has 4 attacks they are at S6 but still.

They are S10, because the Soulgrinder has two DCCWs.

This is an incredible unit. I expect to see it in nearly every Daemonic army. It can even purchase a weapon that is equivalent to a 24" range Railgun (same S and AP). When these deepstrike near enemy armor, it's all over but the closing credits.

The unique Herald of Nurgle has (IMO) the coolest power in the Codex. He gives bonus powers to every other Nurgle unit in the army as more and more enemy units are killed. Once you have killed a mere 20 enemy models, all your Nurgle units on the table have a 3+ FNP save, wound on a 2+, and ignore Armor saves! :eek:

And while we're on the subject of HQ units. You could concievably take 4 HQ units in your army. The Greater HQ units take up 1 HQ slot each. The Lesser HQ units only take up 1/2 of an HQ slot. So you could have all 4 unique Heralds leading a Chaos Glory army if you like.

Tzeench has the shootiest of the Daemon forces. All Slaaneshi units have Fleet of Foot. Khorne units are awesome in HtH (of course). Most units also have the option to buy Daemonic upgrades. These can be cult-specific upgrades like "Plaguesword" or they can be generic upgrades like "Daemonic Strength". Even the old traditional Daemon units can upgrade at least one model with a cool power (Bolt of Change for Horrors).

This army will suffer a bit with the Deep Strike rules until 5th Edition hits the shelf, since 4th Ed. doesn't allow charges after DSing. But it is going to seriously change the metagame if for no other reason than it doesn't even deploy on the board before the game begins.

One other thing. All units - every single one - in the Codex are immune to ID.

lord_blackfang
11-04-2008, 16:20
They are S10, because the Soulgrinder has two DCCWs.

This is an incredible unit. I expect to see it in nearly every Daemonic army. It can even purchase a weapon that is equivalent to a 24" range Railgun (same S and AP). When these deepstrike near enemy armor, it's all over but the closing credits.
You're forgetting it's BS3, so that's a minimum of 160 pts for a 50/50 chance to hit once, and then probably die to return fire.

RampagingRavener
11-04-2008, 16:29
I get the impression that you can play some sort of a Daemonzilla list am I right?

GD as HQ, Nurglings as Troops and Soulgrinders and Daemon Princes as HS.

You could, yes. But I don't think Nurglings count as compulsery troop choices, and the way the army enters play would probably let your opponent focus his weapons on each Monsterous Creature piecemeal. It might well work; the Greater Daemons and Daemon Princes are really nasty if you put some points into them, but I think you'd need a mess of cheap Daemonettes with their mass of low-strength, high-initiative rending attacks to try and draw fire away, clog up firing lines, and so on. Or Bloodletters. Bloodletters are kinda expensive for their toughness (No harder to kill than a Chaos Marine 'Lesser Daemon' IIRC, but 3 points more expensive). But they're gonna tear through most non-horde Infantry without blinking.

EDIT: Wait, wait, wait. Some of the stuff I'm reading is suggesting in 5th ed, units can charge after deepstriking. Not having seen the leaked 5th ed stuff, this is new to me...that's gonna make Daemons crazy good, I think.

Democratus
11-04-2008, 16:29
And totally worth it. After playing Chaos Space Marines, 160 points looks dirt cheap to me. Besides AV13 and immune to stunned/shaken isn't particularly easy to eliminate. And if the enemy has to spend a turn or two in their own deployment zone just to eliminate two models I drop back there - I'm already ahead.

After a several proxy games, I'm convinced that Soulgrinders are well worth it. Let's not forget those 5xS10 attacks they have on the charge - a charge that they can perform after DSing in 5th edition. ;)


You could, yes. But I don't think Nurglings count as compulsery troop choices

They do. They are standard troop choices. Quite good as tarpits now that they are immune to ID.

Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 16:51
You split your list in roughly equal halves, then roll a die. On a 3+, you get the half you want, on a 1-2 you get the other half. This half deep strikes on turn 1 using the normal rules. The rest is in reserve and individual units deep strike when they become available, as normal. Icons act as teleport homers, nothing more, nothing less.

This is 100% correct


Nurgle is without a doubt the hardest mono-god army to play, because everything is Slow and Purposeful. I imagine you'd have to Deep Strike very aggressively and try to box your opponent in, otherwise you'll never catch him.

I think Nurgle units would greatly benefit from some Slaaneshy support.

In such a case you will probobly use "undivided deamons" (Soulgrinders and Furies too) as they take care of some of the weaknesses without forcing you to get another god to help you.


You could, yes. But I don't think Nurglings count as compulsery troop choices,

They Do


They are S10, because the Soulgrinder has two DCCWs.
Iīm a little doubting on this one it says that attacks are included in itīs profile so I donīt understand why S wouldnīt be.

Panzerkanzler
11-04-2008, 16:54
After a several proxy games, I'm convinced that Soulgrinders are well worth it. Let's not forget those 5xS10 attacks they have on the charge - a charge that they can perform after DSing in 5th edition. ;)


Well, my Tau are crying already. If troops can deepstrike and charge the same turn I simply won't be able to win against DS-heavy armies. DS is my worst nightmare even presently.

RampagingRavener
11-04-2008, 16:57
They do. They are standard troop choices. Quite good as tarpits now that they are immune to ID.

Huh, my bad on that one then, the stuff I've got doesn't include the Nurgle unit rules and is missing a few of the Khorne/Slaanesh ones. Thanks for correcting me. :)

Inquisitor Thantos
11-04-2008, 17:01
This is more of a response to the 5th edition deeps strike rules/deamon deep strike rules.

Daemons are summoned on the table, they use the deep strike rules with modifications. Currently, when summoned they can assualt the turn they arrive, however, this is specific to daemons. Units that teleport, or 'deep strike' such as terminators, grey knights etc, arrive and cannot assault.

Even though I play a deathwing and grey knights force, I hope they dont change this as to where all units that deep strike can shoot AND assault on the turn they arrive.
Not only would that not make sense with the fluff, but also, I think it will make armies like the grey knights truly frightening.

Xandros
11-04-2008, 17:31
Iīm a little doubting on this one it says that attacks are included in itīs profile so I donīt understand why S wouldnīt be.

It's a dreadnought close combat weapon, as per the BGB. Nearly all walkers have it.

Akuma
11-04-2008, 17:41
Let's not forget those 5xS10 attacks they have on the charge - a charge that they can perform after DSing in 5th edition.

So there is a consesnsus about beeing able to assoult in 5 - ed ? I'm asking becasuse I'm long term fantasy chaos player and want a new deamon army - but i want it to bo comapable - sadly i dont have time to skim throught the whole 5-ed thread ...

Gaftra
11-04-2008, 18:07
I get the impression that you can play some sort of a Daemonzilla list am I right?

GD as HQ, Nurglings as Troops and Soulgrinders and Daemon Princes as HS.

im all about this, had a thread where we name it Chaos Kong, i dont think itll win a great deal in 5th since you have about 0 troop choices but man itll be fun

Leogun_91
11-04-2008, 18:09
This is more of a response to the 5th edition deeps strike rules/deamon deep strike rules.

Daemons are summoned on the table, they use the deep strike rules with modifications. Currently, when summoned they can assualt the turn they arrive, however, this is specific to daemons. Units that teleport, or 'deep strike' such as terminators, grey knights etc, arrive and cannot assault.

Even though I play a deathwing and grey knights force, I hope they dont change this as to where all units that deep strike can shoot AND assault on the turn they arrive.
Not only would that not make sense with the fluff, but also, I think it will make armies like the grey knights truly frightening.

Currently the Deamons deep strike as normal (except that some does it turn one) they may not assault at the time they deep strike.

flyfire29
11-04-2008, 18:29
Sounds like I'll be glad that I run a few mystics with my inquisitor's retinue :)

Raddman
11-04-2008, 18:33
I believe in 5th Ed, you will only be able to Fleet or Run when you DS, with no assault allowed.

This will be true for all units that DS.


rad.

Vet.Sister
11-04-2008, 23:32
I may have missed this, but what about using the daemons in this codex with the C:CSM list?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-04-2008, 23:46
I may have missed this, but what about using the daemons in this codex with the C:CSM list?

apocalypse?

mr cool
12-04-2008, 00:59
they any good?

Eryx_UK
12-04-2008, 01:04
Is there anything in there with relevance to Daemonhunters and their abilities?

Chem-Dog
12-04-2008, 01:20
You split your list in roughly equal halves, then roll a die. On a 3+, you get the half you want, on a 1-2 you get the other half. This half deep strikes on turn 1 using the normal rules. The rest is in reserve and individual units deep strike when they become available, as normal. Icons act as teleport homers, nothing more, nothing less.

This looks like making a twin Herald HQ choice a no brainer.


Is there anything in there with relevance to Daemonhunters and their abilities?

A majority of the Daemon Hunter skills/abilities/attacks are a Buff/Debuff based on a model's status as either a Daemon or a "Chaos" model, I can't see how the DH's interaction with Daemons would've changed all that much.

Questions:- Am I right in thinking the basic generic Heralds are essentially "Champion" versions (you know +1 wound, +1 attack kind of thing) of the Lesser Daemons of their God?

How viable are the "Cult" armies where only troops dedicated to a single god are taken? I know Nurgle's been touched on briefly but in general, how do they fare? I have a friend who's looking at a Nurgle force, one considering Khorne and I'm doing Slaanesh (we're trying to convince another to play Tzeench too!).

Kalec
12-04-2008, 02:16
How viable are the "Cult" armies where only troops dedicated to a single god are taken? I know Nurgle's been touched on briefly but in general, how do they fare? I have a friend who's looking at a Nurgle force, one considering Khorne and I'm doing Slaanesh (we're trying to convince another to play Tzeench too!).

Not very. You will have 1 choice in each slot except HS, and nurgle has no marked FA choice but gets 2 troops. Every god's daemons are pretty focused on a single thing, so you are gong to have very little flexibility. The one exception is the Tzeentch Seekers, which move as jetbikes with meltabombs and decent cc capability while all other Tzeentch units are shooty.

For Blackfang: is there a slaaneshi uber-daemon HQ choice? The version I have doesn't include one, which is odd because every other god has one, though none of them look to be worth their points.

bluebugs
12-04-2008, 02:45
Let's Talk Tzeentch. Horrors, good core troops? I hear that they have a 4++ and can be in minimum units of 3. I plan on focusing a lot of my army around tzeentch, so I need to know. Also, what are they're shooting abilities, do all shoot as one gun, or individually?

Flamers, are they rock hard awesome?

I hear LoC sux, but I'm taking one anyway. That's all I really need to know.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-04-2008, 04:29
The backround reavels things that were not said before including the appearence of each of the mayor powers realms in detail.

So what you're saying is that it reiterates the background from the old Realms of Chaos books? Nothing new here.

Leogun_91
12-04-2008, 08:37
Is there anything in there with relevance to Daemonhunters and their abilities?

I have not seen them mentioned even once but I have a few unit descriptions left to read.


Let's Talk Tzeentch. Horrors, good core troops? I hear that they have a 4++ and can be in minimum units of 3. I plan on focusing a lot of my army around tzeentch, so I need to know. Also, what are they're shooting abilities, do all shoot as one gun, or individually?

Flamers, are they rock hard awesome?

I hear LoC sux, but I'm taking one anyway. That's all I really need to know.

Horrors are 5-20 and shoot three mediocre shots each but one may be upgraded with a big shot instead.

Flamers all have an awsome breath attack as well as the horrors shooting attack.

LOC doesnīt suck he is more expensive yes but he starts with 4 Demonic powers and the option to get up to 5 more, he has a better save than the others and his stats are really not that much worse than the others.


So what you're saying is that it reiterates the background from the old Realms of Chaos books? Nothing new here.

Allright but I didnīt had that one, OK and there might be some new things too.
(still I donīt have that one so I donīt know whats new) Is how a Deamon world is created new? For thatīs in it.

Atrum Angelus
12-04-2008, 08:51
We have a copy in store (got it in last week). While I haven't read through it in its entirety, it does seem like a great book background-wise, and is chalk-full of new art (YEAH!). The daemons themselves look pretty formidable stats-wise. Though, what I find really amusing is everything is cheaper in the Daemons of Chaos Army Book (WHF).

We at the store have decided to make a Daemons army for the store since when just auctioned off two in our last auction. Looks like its going to be a fun list :D



Is there anything in there with relevance to Daemonhunters and their abilities?

Nope. However, it is going to be nice to dust off the Daemonhunters. The Chaos Daemons presents an army where everything on the opposite side of the table will be susceptible to all the abilities of the Daemonhunters.

Dammeron
12-04-2008, 12:24
All fairly interesting, but not what I'd call inspiring. There are far too many missed opportunities with this and the recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines to have me jumping up and down with joy. This was the perfect opportunity for GW to introduce rules for cultists etc, and for some reason, it hasn't been done, despite a great deal of fan insistence. Blah.

Ivan Stupidor
12-04-2008, 15:10
All fairly interesting, but not what I'd call inspiring. There are far too many missed opportunities with this and the recent Codex: Chaos Space Marines to have me jumping up and down with joy. This was the perfect opportunity for GW to introduce rules for cultists etc, and for some reason, it hasn't been done, despite a great deal of fan insistence. Blah.

Yes, the book where they said "We're focusing entirely on the Chaos Space Marines, which is why you only got token daemons" and the book where they said "This is only going to be about Chaos Daemons" would of course be the logical places to reintroduce cultists, as they are both Marines and Daemons.

Slaaneshi Slave
12-04-2008, 16:40
A logical place to look for cultist rules would be the upcoming Imperial Guard Codex, one would presume.

Ravenheart
12-04-2008, 19:18
I'm a bit confused about the chaos shooting powers. Early rumors said for example, that Demonic Gaze (horror shooting power) is S4 AP3. That isn't correct anymore I figure.

Could someone give a rundown on all the powers? That'd be great.

inquisitor solarris
12-04-2008, 19:48
I just seen at least 10 minutes of the codex and I say I'm really like what has become of the forces of slaanesh X3 (Masque's "dance with me power" is brilliant)

Leogun_91
12-04-2008, 22:32
I'm a bit confused about the chaos shooting powers. Early rumors said for example, that Demonic Gaze (horror shooting power) is S4 AP3. That isn't correct anymore I figure.

Could someone give a rundown on all the powers? That'd be great.

The demonic gaze is a little bit stronger than that but is not the horrors base power, horrors use Warpfire which simply is a weaker version of the demonic gaze.

Jobhug
13-04-2008, 02:16
Is it true you MUST take a named herald or Greater Daemon?

Lord Cook
13-04-2008, 04:01
What are the basic troops like in terms of cost? Are we talking similar cost to a Marine? Necron? Dire Avenger?



Sounds like I'll be glad that I run a few mystics with my inquisitor's retinue :)

I think a lot of people will be dusting off their Daemonhunters codex and re-reading the INQ retinue entries ;).

HsojVvad
13-04-2008, 05:23
What can Deamons allie with? Can they allie up with CSM?

Leogun_91
13-04-2008, 08:30
Is it true you MUST take a named herald or Greater Daemon?

No you could have an army led purely by unnamed heralds but as heralds (two for one) and greater deamons are the only HQ choices you must have at least one herald or one greater deamon.

LOTRCROWN
13-04-2008, 09:12
so can use use these guys to ally with CSM ? like IG ally with spacemarines ? so that you dont have to use the pants rules in the CSM book ??

Skirnak
13-04-2008, 09:26
so can use use these guys to ally with CSM ? like IG ally with spacemarines ? so that you dont have to use the pants rules in the CSM book ??

Not officially, no.

lord_blackfang
13-04-2008, 10:14
What are the basic troops like in terms of cost? Are we talking similar cost to a Marine? Necron? Dire Avenger?


All the Troops (and Fast Attack, too) costs are within 2 pts of a Marine.

Dreachon
13-04-2008, 11:38
so can use use these guys to ally with CSM ? like IG ally with spacemarines ? so that you dont have to use the pants rules in the CSM book ??

IG can't ally with sm, anyone trying to tell you otherwise is just talking bull, only allies is with inquisition and that's gonna get shafted in time as GW no longer wants allies to work.
You can't take the deamons alongside csm unless your playing apocalypse as otherwise there will be obscene bonusseswith the 2.

ChaosBeast
13-04-2008, 12:21
IG can't ally with sm, anyone trying to tell you otherwise is just talking bull, only allies is with inquisition and that's gonna get shafted in time as GW no longer wants allies to work.
You can't take the deamons alongside csm unless your playing apocalypse as otherwise there will be obscene bonusseswith the 2.

well acording to my store manager if you have at least an HQ and 2 troops from each army list, and dont go over the FOC (ie 4 HQ's etc) you can in non-apocolypse games, if its a sensible combonation (ie IG and SM) and not just to take advantage of the rules (ie tyranids and necrons) just thought i should clear that up

Dr. Acula
13-04-2008, 12:33
I expect that is simply a house rule - I personally don't have a problem with allies as long as they are pretty much a separate army that sticks to a single FOC (must obey the required choices for a standalone army) and there is a reasonable backgound to them working together then I don't see any problem. However, I expect that tournaments will have their own rules regarding allies that aren't expressly permitted by codex books such as the DH and WH books.

Zanzibarthefirst
13-04-2008, 12:39
the thing there about the nurgle herald. KLIlling 20 models is relative. thta would be easy to do against orks but difficult to do against a deathwing army.

Oberon
13-04-2008, 12:58
How many points you get from the spearhead/battleforce, and would it be a viable (not only legal, but good to play with, maybe even do well with) army? It looks like there's way too many little characters and too few troops for a good army...

Xandros
13-04-2008, 14:46
You can't take the deamons alongside csm unless your playing apocalypse as otherwise there will be obscene bonusseswith the 2.

False. The reason sounds "because they're not in the same codex". You're trying to instil an irrational fear, I suspect because of the mythological daemon bomb which was always prone to failure. Daemons were always fine with chaos marines and bar smallminded reasonings I don't see why this should have changed.

LOTRCROWN
13-04-2008, 14:49
ahh ok so the purposes of normal games ill be having to stick with basic and greater daemons . . . .

YAY FOR CSM ! !

Lord Damocles
13-04-2008, 15:07
False. The reason sounds "because they're not in the same codex". You're trying to instil an irrational fear, I suspect because of the mythological daemon bomb which was always prone to failure. Daemons were always fine with chaos marines and bar smallminded reasonings I don't see why this should have changed.

So you'd be fine with a load of Bloodletters or plaguebearers, which cost almost the same as a marine, deep striking in on the first turn and tying up half your army in combat while Beserkers, Defilers, Obliterators etc. get to your lines virtually untouched would you?

The Deamon units are costed to be balanced in an all Deamon army. The Chaos Marine units are priced to be ballanced in an all Chaos Marine army. As an example of how unbalanced Deamon units would be in a Chaos Marine force, if I remember correctly, a Bloodletter is only 1 point more expensive than a generic lesser deamon. That is NOT balanced.

Dreachon
13-04-2008, 15:17
Lord Damocles already spells it out for you Xandros, the deamon list is balanced with the other units in that army list, having a pure khorne deamon army will demolish most things in cc but it doesn't much ranged firepower, once this get's delivered by csm, obliterators and other hard firepower units in the csm list it becomes vastly over-powered.

This will make the old deamon-bomb look like a little baby, 1st turn turboboost with khornebikers, 2nd turn I'm gonna drop Skulltaker, Bloodthirster and 3 khorne deamon princes in your lines and they can assault right away.

intellectawe
13-04-2008, 15:36
well acording to my store manager if you have at least an HQ and 2 troops from each army list, and dont go over the FOC (ie 4 HQ's etc) you can in non-apocolypse games, if its a sensible combonation (ie IG and SM) and not just to take advantage of the rules (ie tyranids and necrons) just thought i should clear that up

Hes lying to sell you models. There are no TRUE ally rules in this game except for Inquisitor / Witch Hunter / IG mixing.


So you'd be fine with a load of Bloodletters or plaguebearers, which cost almost the same as a marine, deep striking in on the first turn and tying up half your army in combat while Beserkers, Defilers, Obliterators etc. get to your lines virtually untouched would you?

You mean HALF the deamons you choose deepstriking turn 1 right? And then you mean only the deamons that deepstrike on target will assault, as opposed to the deamon units which scattered onto enemy units and died, or scattered too far to charge right?

But I agree with you regardless. Keep CSM and Deamons separate please. That way GW can milk more money out of all of ya :)

Richter Kless
13-04-2008, 15:50
But I agree with you regardless. Keep CSM and Deamons separate please. That way GW can milk more money out of all of ya :)

Haha, oh how witty you are.

Xandros
13-04-2008, 16:05
So you'd be fine with a load of Bloodletters or plaguebearers, which cost almost the same as a marine, deep striking in on the first turn and tying up half your army in combat while Beserkers, Defilers, Obliterators etc. get to your lines virtually untouched would you?

The Deamon units are costed to be balanced in an all Deamon army. The Chaos Marine units are priced to be ballanced in an all Chaos Marine army. As an example of how unbalanced Deamon units would be in a Chaos Marine force, if I remember correctly, a Bloodletter is only 1 point more expensive than a generic lesser deamon. That is NOT balanced.

The reserves rules don't allow for first turn deep strikes. Personally I'd summon them using the Chaos rules. It is true that the daemons are cheap compared to summoned daemons, but those are fairly expensive for their abilities, costing like a marine but without the benefit of power armour.


Lord Damocles already spells it out for you Xandros, the deamon list is balanced with the other units in that army list, having a pure khorne deamon army will demolish most things in cc but it doesn't much ranged firepower, once this get's delivered by csm, obliterators and other hard firepower units in the csm list it becomes vastly over-powered.

This will make the old deamon-bomb look like a little baby, 1st turn turboboost with khornebikers, 2nd turn I'm gonna drop Skulltaker, Bloodthirster and 3 khorne deamon princes in your lines and they can assault right away.

You choose to forget that a daemon army can muster very impressive firepower, more so than CSM. Your example of a daemonbomb is quite impressive too, but I wouldn't include daemon princes, nor skulltaker.

It might be interesting though, to take a prince out of the daemon list and make him HQ of your CSM army. I hear they have a lot more options.

Dreachon
13-04-2008, 16:09
True there is serious firepower is a deamon army ( I'd hate to be in 12"of a mono tzeentch deamon army ), but most of the deamon firepower is short ranged and it's only for tzeentch sofar as I know, khorne and nurgle have very little so they would benefit a lot from the csm firepower.

NotElite
13-04-2008, 16:30
I just can't wait until 8th edition, when I'll be able to field my Sisters of Chaos army again.

As for the OP, it looks like the Melee-Centric rules of 5th edition will mesh decently.

Müller
13-04-2008, 18:11
Personally I say that this codex should never been even thought of... it goes against most Chaos Fluff created so far and the fact that CSM no longer can use demons in the way they could before (when demons actually were worth spending points for) just plain sucks...

Me as a CSM player (I also play SM but that don't belong here anyway) really HATE the new codex. I do play undivided but with a very khornate aimed theme as well as well as only bloodletters for demons..
I used 1 squad of 8 Bloodletters along with my CC DP, Possessed and chosen (in Termie armor in larger games) to take the fight to my enemy,then I let my 3-5 squads of CSM troopers take ground and lay down needed supressing fire along with my defiler doing what it does best while keeping the range between it ad my enemies...
Sure people think of bloodletters as overpowerful, but the ay I used them they were pretty balanced, and I never used max amount of obliterators because I liked the fluff I created for my army, which was very Khorne themed, so I say that my army was very balanced and I lost my share of games.... I just don't see why they had to make demons that work with CSM so damn crappy...

I can then understand how furious an Alpha Legion or Word Bearer player would feel about the new codex... a LOT of the great fluff around those armies went down the pooper the second the new codex arrived...

I guess I'm just lucky to have such nice friends that allow me to still use the old CSM Codex when I play, they agree with me and there are some other CSM players who feel like me in our gaming group...

When it comes to tourneys I couldn't care less, if I was to play something to be competative it would certanly NOT be 40K...

Sekhmet
13-04-2008, 18:15
I'm in, give me the normal leadership value please for the majority of troops.

There's only one unit in the codex that isn't Ld10. It's the named Keeper of Secrets.


Nurgle is without a doubt the hardest mono-god army to play, because everything is Slow and Purposeful. I imagine you'd have to Deep Strike very aggressively and try to box your opponent in, otherwise you'll never catch him.

I think Nurgle units would greatly benefit from some Slaaneshy support.
Nurgle Daemon Princes (probably the best setup for a DP) and nurglings?

Lord Cook
13-04-2008, 18:29
I just don't see why they had to make demons that work with CSM so damn crappy...

Because unlike you, so many of your fellow Chaos players just abused the fact that the rules were too good?

loveless
13-04-2008, 18:34
There's only one unit in the codex that isn't Ld10. It's the named Keeper of Secrets.


Really? I thought the Lord of Changed named Fateweaver was only Ld9? But then, I didn't know there was a named Keeper *shrugs*

Sekhmet
13-04-2008, 19:07
Really? I thought the Lord of Changed named Fateweaver was only Ld9? But then, I didn't know there was a named Keeper *shrugs*

Oops, I meant LoC. haha. I get confused between LoC and KoS. :mad:

It makes sense that Tzeentch would be a keeper of secrets (arcane knowledge) as well as a lord of change...

loveless
13-04-2008, 19:10
Ah. haha, such is life

I feel bad for the poor Keeper...he gets no love *tear*

Although I hear he's none too shabby in the new Daemons

ReveredChaplainDrake
13-04-2008, 19:22
Fateweaver is the Ld9, and the only reason for that is, in the rubbish-psychology of this system, that's the only way to make the Fatweaver weak in any way, in combination with that whole "egad, I've been shot!" special rule he has where he's removed from the board whenever he takes a wound and blows a Ld check. Mind you though, causing Fateweaver a wound at all is tough with that re-rollable 3+ ward.

I'm surprised the obvious combo hasn't come up yet:
-Epidemus
-Fateweaver
-2 units of 15 Plaguebearers w/ Icons & Music
-9 Nurglings

First, Deepstrike Epidemus off in a corner somewhere, and deepstrike the Nurglings around him to protect him from firepower. (They've got to change those IC rules come 5th ed, or Epidemus is going to be the most bulls**t tough character to kill since The Deceiver...) Make sure to run the Nurglings so they spread out and block off all paths to Epidemus, which is actually not that hard in subsequent turns as they don't have S&P. This prevents Epidemus from being targeted by anything, a la 3rd ed's Siren.

After that, Deepstrike in the Plaguebearers about 12-18" apart and then deepstrike Fateweaver right in between where they land. Hopefully, you'll have two icons placed in two different places, enough so that you can deepstrike the rest of your army to hit wherever you want, and your Icons will never be budged. Why, you ask? Well let's count the saves the Plaguebearers get. 5+ Ward, 4+ FNP (which can only be negated by Str10 attacks or, ironically enough, power weapons), and a 5+ re-rollable due to Fateweaver.

IMO though, Tzeentch and Nurgle as a combo-attack is just wrong...

Visionary
13-04-2008, 20:42
I was having a flick through the codex and to me I am most worried about the tzeentch trickster with his little 'You can either shoot your own men or not at all' trick, I am thinking of collecting these guys purely because it seems to me the most tactical army.

airmang
13-04-2008, 22:09
I was having a flick through the codex and to me I am most worried about the tzeentch trickster with his little 'You can either shoot your own men or not at all' trick, I am thinking of collecting these guys purely because it seems to me the most tactical army.

yeah the changelings power is nice, he's an upgrade character, and he only cost as much as melta bomb. unfortunatly, as most people will tell you, LD isn't all that difficult to make for most armies out there. but i would still take him anyway, since he is such a cheap upgrade, and when it works:D

an all tzenntch army is nice, you get a bit more flexiblity from your DS since you don't have to DS that close to use the shooting attacks. you have AT in powers and screamers. and lots and lots of shooting. i would take fateweaver just for the re-roll. while horrors might might not be great in HTH you can back them up with greater daemons( the lord of change isn't terrible in HTH, just not as good as the other GD) and daemon prince(these will cost you though). But mobile shooting is where this army shines, and has a weapon for just about any situation.

Captain Micha
13-04-2008, 22:48
Nurgle is without a doubt the hardest mono-god army to play, because everything is Slow and Purposeful. I imagine you'd have to Deep Strike very aggressively and try to box your opponent in, otherwise you'll never catch him.

I think Nurgle units would greatly benefit from some Slaaneshy support.

So that means my "nurgle powered slaanesh delivery system" Nurgle/Slaanesh force is going to actually be synergistic?

Sekhmet
14-04-2008, 02:18
I'd rather use a nurgle powered tzeentch delivery system.

Tzeentch, besides pink horrors, is arguably faster than slaanesh. It's also flat out more survivable with +1 better invul save. And it adds shooting.

loveless
14-04-2008, 03:42
Aww, yet another one turns away from Slaanesh, the poor teenage emo boy of the chaos gods :p

Captain Micha
14-04-2008, 03:58
I'd rather use a nurgle powered tzeentch delivery system.

Tzeentch, besides pink horrors, is arguably faster than slaanesh. It's also flat out more survivable with +1 better invul save. And it adds shooting.

ooo I might keep that in mind. Even though I was partly doing this because of the new daemonettes. (and then getting some old ones for my slaanesh demonettes... where as the new ones... nurgle daemonettes hehe) the new daemonettes don't look so bad as they used to though.

Chem-Dog
14-04-2008, 04:36
But Daemonettes are rending. Rendy Rendy Rendy Rend!

Vexbane
14-04-2008, 08:03
Would Tzeentch and slaanesh work well together? I have some older mounted slaanesh daemonettes does the new codex use them or something like them? Any advice would be appreciated.

Souleater
14-04-2008, 11:45
I'd love to make a Khornite army. I really love the new Bloodletter models. and the Hounds but I can replace with Dire Wolves. Brass bones, black flesh and red bloodsoaked fur.

Maybe put some glory of chaos undivided or whatever it is called daemons in.

It would only be a small army though. Would it be viable? I'm particularly thinking against 1ksons or Nurgle CSM.

Or would I have to go for some kind of 'counts as' deal?

Kettu
14-04-2008, 15:19
Hes lying to sell you models. There are no TRUE ally rules in this game except for Inquisitor / Witch Hunter / IG mixing.


Sorry, wrong.

Page 78 of the fourth edition BGB for Warhammer 40,000.
The little part about Multiple Detachment Games.

Granted it only really mentions non-appoc large games but really, if you get permission off your opponent you could have SM and CSM fighting a common foe if you wanted.
However, you would have to treat the armies with respect to their own codex, no soul grinders warping out where your bikers are, only where your Codex Daemon icons are.

---

One a different note, are Spawn in the list or only via the one attack that was mentioned, cause I just went and bought a few in preparation for the codex. They’ll still probably make good heralds though.

lord_blackfang
14-04-2008, 15:30
No Spawn in the actual Army List, I'm afraid.

Leogun_91
14-04-2008, 16:12
No real spawn but beasts of nurgles are kind of spawn

Eulenspiegel
14-04-2008, 16:49
Sorry, wrong.

Page 78 of the fourth edition BGB for Warhammer 40,000.
The little part about Multiple Detachment Games.

Granted it only really mentions non-appoc large games but really, if you get permission off your opponent you could have SM and CSM fighting a common foe if you wanted. (...)

If I get my opponentīs permission, I can field Eldar with Marines.

Pick-up games use the regular FOC, and casual opponents will not expect something with multiple FOCs.

intellectawe
14-04-2008, 18:37
Sorry, wrong.

Sorry, right.

With detachments, I can take Tyranids with Necrons, all because, according to you, the rules are permission based. There are no flat out ally rules for 'normal games' ( 2000 and under, mainly 1500 ) except for codex rules, which are the ones I listed.

inquisitor solarris
14-04-2008, 19:57
I'm pretty much just gonna make a Full Slaaneshi army (nothing is less then Inititive 6) Ilike to try the Fiend of Slaanesh and the Masque is cheap points, FOR THE SEXUALLY FRUSTRATED GOD!!! XP

take19
14-04-2008, 20:06
Can you combine it with a normal chaos space marine army!?

Dreachon
14-04-2008, 20:09
Have you read the thread, it's mentioned already several times it's a seperate army that fights on it's own with no allies.

v_ol_tron
15-04-2008, 06:21
about the beasts of nurgle, how many wounds? as many as a spawn?

and also, do the pics in the book show what size base its supposed to be on? the net pics show it on a 65mm base, but this seems a bit excessive given the supposed stats.

anything else you can tell me would be awesome.

deadpool2345
15-04-2008, 15:54
sorry if already posted but hearlds can be used as 2=1Hq, but is it the same for named hearlds????(bluescribes,skulltaker etc)
and also what is/are the bluescribes like??:confused:

If it is then that would mean that the spearhead would be a viable army.
(not to mention the amount of sheer chaos and slaughter you could have)

p.s any sneaky things for against grey knights and daemonhunters/witch hunters??

cheers,
farthee well
DEADPOOL

lord_blackfang
15-04-2008, 16:06
Named Heralds also only take 1/2 an HQ slot each, so you can have all 4 at once.

Bluescribes are two Horrors on a Disc, I think. They know all the "spells" in the book, even the Nurgle and Slaaneshy ones.

Vishok
15-04-2008, 16:59
No you could have an army led purely by unnamed heralds but as heralds (two for one) and greater deamons are the only HQ choices you must have at least one herald or one greater deamon.

Ok so 1 of each god is allowed.

Nevermind, question answered.

Pre ordering...

Huw_Dawson
15-04-2008, 17:25
YOU CANNOT ALLY THIS ARMY WITH CHAOS SPACE MARINES IN NORMAL GAMES OF 40K. PLEASE STOP ASKING. PLEASE STOP MOANING ABOUT IT.

We've already HAD 400 discussions about how your granny is upset because your limbless, utterly innocent and altogether goodie-goodie little sister's utterly fluffy CSM army has been shafted by not allowing it to have godly combinations that utterly broke the game. PLEASE STOP POSTING ABOUT IT. The topic is IRRELEVENT. :p

I don't know about you lot, but I'm sure as hell looking forward to playing these two armies with my Orks and Dwarves! Lots o' Dakka and Cannonry to take them down...

- Huw

Darnok
15-04-2008, 17:51
Bluescribes are two Horrors on a Disc, I think. They know all the "spells" in the book, even the Nurgle and Slaaneshy ones.

As a question to the OP or anybody else with the book: is that correct? Are there pictures of an official model to be released later? Is there a conversion featured in the book? I'd like to convert them now, so any hints would be appreciated. No stats or rules, just a description of the model itself, as accurate as possible. Thanks in advance. :)

Xandros
15-04-2008, 17:55
YOU CANNOT ALLY THIS ARMY WITH CHAOS SPACE MARINES. PLEASE STOP ASKING. PLEASE STOP MOANING ABOUT IT.

Pipe down. The rules aren't wrought in steel and stone.

Killmaimburn
15-04-2008, 17:56
Can anyone confirm that the herald of khorne chariot costs LESS than it does to buy it for skulltaker...and yet he (EDIT the skulltaker) doesn't beneifit from the save increase (since he's already a 3+ a rather big bit of it)? Which bit of what did I miss out there(the juggernauts cost the same, I can't see the balance issue)?
Is that a typo points swap\ old edition\ or have i gone cross eyed in rage?

oh yeah btw can I ally chaos dwarves with chaos beasts?:D

de Selby
15-04-2008, 18:05
If you wanted to have the last word (and get in another dig at those who disagree with you) you shouldn't have used the word Moot, methinks.


[SIZE="7"] We've already HAD 400 discussions about how your granny is upset because your limbless, utterly innocent and altogether goodie-goodie little sister's utterly fluffy CSM army has been shafted by not allowing it to have godly combinations that utterly broke the game. PLEASE STOP POSTING ABOUT IT. The topic is MOOT. :p


Adjective moot
1. Subject to discussion (originally at a moot); arguable, debatable, not settled.
2. (US) Having no practical importance; academic.


AND STOP SHOUTING!

AmBlam
15-04-2008, 18:20
Does it feel like a full and proper army list in your honest opinion?

bluebugs
15-04-2008, 18:43
So I want to start daemons so bad after reading about them, dammit! Another army I have to paint. Anyway, I want to keep model count low, like really low. I like elite armies. I want to do mostly Tzeentch with Slaanesh backup. So for the models I have right now here is the list I can make;

1 Lord of change (converted from zombie dragon)
1 Blue scribe (if it truely is just horrors on a disk)
about 18 horrors total, I can make a changling
1 Daemon prince (walking made from shaggoth)
1 Daemon prince (flying, made from archeons mount, old spawn bits, and dragon wings)

So, anyone know what this will come out to? I figure I can just run that as an army until I gather some moneys to buy daemonettes.

Oh and can I ally my Tyranid Zilla list with my shooty horde orks?

Dr.Clock
15-04-2008, 18:48
How many bloodcrushers in a unit??

Can a mounted khorne herald join them??

Are furies any good?? can heralds join them??

Cheers,

The Good Doctor

Bloodknight
15-04-2008, 19:06
@KMB: I guess that could be because the Skulltaker benefits a lot more from the stat increases - especially the additional attacks due to his ID 4+ rending rule -, ie they are worth more to him than to the Khorne herald.

Huw_Dawson
15-04-2008, 19:31
AND STOP SHOUTING!

Well, we HAVE already had thousands of posts detailing why the CSM book sucks and de-facto this one also sucks because it can't ally with the CSM book...

Anyway, I'll pull the size 7 down a few ranks. And add "In normal games." ;) And change moot to irrelevent, but around here moot is always used as "an irrelevent, trivial topic" and usually implied to one that has been done to death.

Apologies if I ticked anybody off. :p

- Huw

de Selby
15-04-2008, 20:10
Spoken like a gent. Since I first encountered the American legal usage of the word 'moot' on the internet, I've found it amusing that the meaning of the word moot is moot.

AGC
15-04-2008, 20:17
I always thought when people used "moot" like that they meant "mute".

To say something relevent to the thread topic for a moment:-

It does appear that Games Workshop have done a good job. I haven't seen any posts from anyone who's seen the book that hates it. But I still wonder whether GW stores have the space and the designers the time to support another new army.

Dreachon
15-04-2008, 21:00
Well GW is reducing the items that take a lot of space like blisters, there's no blisters at all with the deamon releases, GW are phasing them slowly out.
As for time well most GW stores should have chaos armies that would certainly have extra deamons left.

Xandros
15-04-2008, 21:17
Is that a typo points swap\ old edition\ or have i gone cross eyed in rage?


Is that something you guys do?

"Kill maim burn kill burn maim......... where did he go?"

Sekhmet
15-04-2008, 22:14
YOU CANNOT ALLY THIS ARMY WITH CHAOS SPACE MARINES IN NORMAL GAMES OF 40K. PLEASE STOP ASKING. PLEASE STOP MOANING ABOUT IT.


So just to make this clear, you cannot ally this army with chaos space marines in regular games of 40k?

Cause if you can't, that really sucks.

FifthWindLegion
15-04-2008, 22:16
I am going to assume you are being serious, and answering yes, your statement is true.

bluebugs
15-04-2008, 22:30
So I want to start daemons so bad after reading about them, dammit! Another army I have to paint. Anyway, I want to keep model count low, like really low. I like elite armies. I want to do mostly Tzeentch with Slaanesh backup. So for the models I have right now here is the list I can make;

1 Lord of change (converted from zombie dragon)
1 Blue scribe (if it truely is just horrors on a disk)
about 18 horrors total, I can make a changling
1 Daemon prince (walking made from shaggoth)
1 Daemon prince (flying, made from archeons mount, old spawn bits, and dragon wings)

So, anyone know what this will come out to? I figure I can just run that as an army until I gather some moneys to buy daemonettes.

Oh and can I ally my Tyranid Zilla list with my shooty horde orks?

I don't need compliments on my conversion ideas, just weather you can make bluescribes or if they are more complex. Also all I need is just a basic point run down. With or without upgrades.

Hrogoff the Destructor
15-04-2008, 23:37
As a question to the OP or anybody else with the book: is that correct? Are there pictures of an official model to be released later? Is there a conversion featured in the book? I'd like to convert them now, so any hints would be appreciated. No stats or rules, just a description of the model itself, as accurate as possible. Thanks in advance. :)

No pictures. Just two horrors on a disc and an "old school" piece of artwork potraying them. They can shoot twice and got a funny rule called "watch this" where they end up shooting the same gun twice on a 4+ instead of a different one.


Questions:- Am I right in thinking the basic generic Heralds are essentially "Champion" versions (you know +1 wound, +1 attack kind of thing) of the Lesser Daemons of their God?

Pretty much.


How viable are the "Cult" armies where only troops dedicated to a single god are taken? I know Nurgle's been touched on briefly but in general, how do they fare? I have a friend who's looking at a Nurgle force, one considering Khorne and I'm doing Slaanesh (we're trying to convince another to play Tzeench too!).

I think cult lists can be competitive. This is rather speculative on my part.


p.s any sneaky things for against grey knights and daemonhunters/witch hunters??

Well, the list has zero psyker abilities to get nullified by both armies. All the things that normally count as psyker abilities are specifically said not to be, but rather are "daemonic gifts". There are quite a few things to grind GK's in the ground with such as bloodcrushers and any other 3+ armor daemon. The soul grinder will be excellent for getting into close combat with Grey Knights since they cannot even glance it.


How many bloodcrushers in a unit??
Can a mounted khorne herald join them??
Are furies any good?? can heralds join them??

1. Many of the god special units make out max out at the gods sacred number (from what I remember). So I think they are 1-8 per unit.
2. Yes.
3. Furies are -1 WS, -1 str, and -2I from the previous version. Same points cost. Heralds can only join squads of their god, so no joining them.

Kalec
16-04-2008, 04:55
However, daemons rely almost entirely upon invulnerable saves. Any GK weapon that negates these, negates armor for about 95% of the army. Incinerators and psycannons never looked so good.

IAMNOTHERE
16-04-2008, 08:04
Ahh, yes we can't glance armour 13 even with our measly ammount of anti armour weaponry.

Such as las cannons. [/sarcasm] It's our only one but it's a good one.

Hrogoff the Destructor
16-04-2008, 08:09
Ahh, yes we can't glance armour 13 even with our measly ammount of anti armour weaponry.

Such as las cannons. [/sarcasm] It's our only one but it's a good one.

I was refering to close combat. But yeah, Daemonhunters anti tank is a little (extremely) lacking.

Dranthar
16-04-2008, 08:47
However, daemons rely almost entirely upon invulnerable saves. Any GK weapon that negates these, negates armor for about 95% of the army. Incinerators and psycannons never looked so good.

Ignoring Inv. saves? Who cares about that!

I'm far more interested in the MC-hammer style 'can't touch this' Sanctuary power. If you get that up and running, those poor deamons won't be able to even touch Mr Inquisitor, and anyone who can get within 3" of him. :D

Of course, this is nicely balanced out by the fact that as a general rule of thumb, inquisitors are crap.

...Doesn't mean I don't love using them though :p

IAMNOTHERE
16-04-2008, 08:57
Or there's the often over looked fact that every GKT can have a thunderhammer for free. Most GK players tend to have one knocking around in the squad.

Killmaimburn
16-04-2008, 09:04
Is that something you guys do?
"Kill maim burn kill burn maim......... where did he go?" Its only something that has recently manifested itself in the average lobotomised beserker fella, the brainchips have decided that since for a 9 month period of life we should be unable to reach the enemy and yet still jonesing to bathe in blood that we should become a bit myopic so we always think the enemy is just that little bit (1")further...so we don't give up the choppy choppy, in fact our weaponry has become fairly blunt due to hitting a few too many statues..still kharn has us all on treadmills working off the last years fat ready to be allowed to run again with 5th ed:D.I've lost 4lbs already but thats only enough to make up for the additional wargear I'm supposed to carry.....
The huffing and puffing poor eyesighted berserker.

Heres a list of stuff I already have\acceptable proxy for (without using all the dark elfs, LATD etc as demonnettes) in a very unoptimised unplaytested 1500 list (well actually I think it should be 1497.But not sure as to source material if any one who has it wants to give a nod or a sigh to it?
HQ=
Fateweaver (well I need all those hero hammer abilities to reroll all my saves within X"- I wouldn't touch him other wise)

Elites= 145
3bloodcrushers + an icon

Troops=509
8 bloodletters of khorne + Icon
9 horrors+1 bolt of change
9 horrors+1 bolt of change,includes changling and icon
(I'll use one of my talisman guys they look suitably funny)

FA=165
Fleshhounds 8 including keranak and one rending model (I've got many bits and bobs for super fleshhound, but if i do try it I'll probably embarrass him by using an old led spider or a warthog)

Heavies= 345
Soulgrinder+phlegm
DP flight, iron hide, MOK (why did the crap for crap did that go up?????) very meh

Gives me a khorne faction led by DP and a Tzeentch faction led by fateweaver.No more purchase required, just some of the stuff back down from the attic,
I have another 12 flesh hounds, (but they are a tad much for here) I have a bunch of flamers but I don't like what they look like here. i don't really like the bloodcrushers...but thats just old hangover attitudes of juggernauts. I might like them ..or they may be the same as of old. I have another DP or 2, and that khorne build is fairly pants but it makes the list a bit fluffy..

I don't know how it will play and the list isn't taking advantage of stuff it could.But with that said I'm not sure about it as a list...my first problem was buying Icons just those 3 are enough for 5 plaguebearers iirc (I’ve heard rumours that 5th ed deepstrike is X amount safer- so maybe that’s a huge chunk of points I can save), I don't like the push to buying models that each cost 150pts+, and with the (apparently) last minute points hikes (playtesters should have used more eldar in the battles:angel:)...I can't see a huge swarm either.I'll give it a go or two, but first kneejerk (non tested) responses on my part is that I'm preferring my move to nids (counts as demons) which is going rather splendidly 3 wins 1 loss and a wonderful flowing motion of synergy.

korskarnkai
16-04-2008, 10:42
Not only would that not make sense with the Fluff, but also, I think it will make armies like the grey knights truly frightening
Which actually fits the fluff... ;)

Megad00mer
16-04-2008, 13:27
If this has been answered already I apologize.

How does Ld work for Daemons? Do they take Morale and Pinning tests like normal units? Are they fearless? Is there some kind of "daemonic instability" rule?

Bloodknight
16-04-2008, 14:15
No instability anymore. All daemons are fearless :)

Megad00mer
16-04-2008, 14:32
No instability anymore. All daemons are fearless :)

Wow...:eek:

PumaKiller
17-04-2008, 05:01
I've been pondering over what I want to use once I get my hands on the codex and my two favorite gods are Tzeentch and Slaanesh so I think I'll stick to them for starters then add in some Nurgle later and finally Khorne (not a fan of the big guy really but the models are just that good). Anyways having no GW within even a hour drive I have yet to get a peek at the codex but model wise I know what I would like to use so what I'm asking is about what point cost would the following be (taking into account some upgrades and all)

Keeper of Secrets
The Masque
Tzeentch Herald on Disc
20 Daemonettes
20 Horrors
6 Flamers
3 Fiends
5 Screamers
10 Seekers
and then either 3 Daemon Princes or Soul Grinders or some mix of the two, I've yet to decide.

It's more or less using at least one of most of the available daemons from each god. I'm hoping this falls in around 2000 points, am I right?

lokigod
17-04-2008, 05:50
woot Loving the fact I already have 5k in daemons in fantasy!