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Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-04-2008, 12:27
For the many here who have not yet had a chance to look at the new Daemons of Chaos Army Book...I want to get you excited about the army in general and spread the news on the sheer resiliency of some of the Daemonic units / models! Consider the following set-up, and I think even the casual observer or potential opponent will be impressed:

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I think I'll be fielding the following Herald as my Battle Standard Bearer (one poster on Daemonic Legion jokingly said the Herald's of Nurgle were seemingly, "practically spawned clutching a battle standard in their hands" :p):


Herald of Nurgle (Hero Choice)

Lvl-1 Wizard // Daemon Lore of Nurgle / Spell: Miasma of Pestilence (1st spell)

Battle Standard Bearer: Banner of Unholy Victory (+D3 Combat Res bonus)

Key Stats: WS-5, STR-5, Tough-5, Attacks-3

* Palanquin Upgrade * - counts as a cavalry mount, thus gives him a 6+ Armor Save (hey, I'll take it)...but is modelled on a 50mm/50mm base, like the one Epidemius the special character is on.

The reason why this is good, for its cost (Magic Items allowance for most Hero characters in Warhammer) ..... is that it has SIX (6) WS-3, STR-3 POISONED :evilgrin: attacks, and thus adds that extra punch to the unit the Herald is with, as well as the Herald himself when he is in a Challenge situation.


Daemonic Gifts:

Noxious Vapors (all enemy in base-to-base with this model ALWAYS STRIKE LAST, even if they normally would strike first and EVEN IF THEY HAVE THE ALWAYS STRIKES FIRST special rule)

Slime Trail (this model, and any unit it has joined, have no Flanks or Rear for combat resolution purposes. Enemies can still attack them and break their ranks, but do not get a +1 or +2 bonus, respectively if they attack them in the flanks or rear)

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Special Abilities: Poisoned Attacks (the normal attacks from the Herald are all Poisoned), Regeneration (the Herald can regenerate on a roll of 4+, as normal), Locus of Nurgle (the Herald passes on his regeneration ability to any unit of Plaguebearers that he joins).

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I will deploy him in a unit of Plaguebearers that is 6-wide by 4 ranks (back):

H= Herald on Palanquin

P= Plaguebearer model

PPHHPP
PPHHPP
PPPPPP
PPPPPP


Unit Upgrades: Champion, Standard Bearer, Musician (Full Command)

Standard Bearer will take the unit upgrade Daemonic Icon called "The Banner of Seeping Decay" - which allows all models in the unit to re-roll their failed rolls to wound.

-----------------

Total Static Combat Resolution for our unit is +1 for Standard Bearer, +1 for Battle Standard Bearer, +3 for Ranks ...possibly +1 for Outnumber against some enemy formations... and a further +D3 rolled at the end of each combat phase from the Banner of Unholy Victory army battle standard.

This comes to a minimum of SCR=6 and a maximum of 8 (9 if we outnumber) !!

:D

In combat we will dish out 5 attacks from the Plaguebearers in the front rank, plus 6 more from the Palanquin the Herald is riding, plus 3 more from the Herald himself = 14 Poisoned Attacks of STR-3, STR-4, and STR-5. We will then be re-rolling all failed rolls to-wound, thanks to our unit Icon, mentioned above.


IF the enemy manages to hurt us (this assumes we fail to get off our Miasma of Pestilence 1st-default-spell in the Daemon Lore of Nurgle, which makes all models in B2B with our Herald go to WS-1, STR-1, Tough-1, Init-1, Attacks-1, and then slaughter them REALLY badly) .... if they do hurt us...we will get to roll our 5+ Daemonic Ward Saves, AND our 4+ Unit-Wide Regeneration (thanks to the Herald of Nurgle being in the unit).


Did I mention that, if we do somehow lose a combat and have to test for our Instability, we cannot "Pop" and disappear completely in the new book....and we have our Army Battle Standard in the unit, so we get to re-roll Instability Tests, if desired.

ps: the total cost of our uber-unit, including the Herald, his Magic Level, the Battle Standard, and all other upgrades is only a little more than 600-pts (so it would clearly be the unbreakable anvil AND hammer of your army, and you would still have 1400-pts to play with even in a 2000-pt list. In a 2500-pt game, it's even more viable)




Yes...let all fear the coming of the Daemons of Chaos !



------------------------


Fulgrim's-Chosen: Daemonic Herald ;)

ThousandPlateaus
11-04-2008, 13:04
Whoa! Pappa Nurgl is the way forward after all it seems. This added to the nearly unkillable GUO would be so, so hard.

The new Daemons scare me!

destroyerlord
11-04-2008, 13:13
Thats one tough unit, especially when combined in an army with pleasureseakers/screamers for fast moving support.

jahorin
11-04-2008, 13:48
Very nice indeed. Without going into the specific point cost. What's the total point cost for that unit?

Does the banner still make you keep your rank bonus when flanked or reared charged?

The Clairvoyant
11-04-2008, 13:49
OMG that is like well broken and stuff!!!!111!!!oneoneone

Emeraldw
11-04-2008, 14:23
That is a nice unit, especially for a core. But that unit is expensive. Especially when you have so many other nice units in the army. All the new core choices have their place which is very nice.

Braad
11-04-2008, 14:41
Indeed. That is one (1) unit. How much will that be? Half your army? All strenghts have weaknesses. I will add their skulls to my soon to be built throne.

GodHead
11-04-2008, 16:16
Actually, in 2000 points, it would only be a little over a quarter of your points.

TheSanityAssassin
11-04-2008, 16:36
Wow....that's absolutely disgusting. Good thing no one around here is considering Daemons....that would absolutely eat my elves alive. Suddenly forcing them to always strike last, with their high points cost and low toughness/armour means NONE of them would be alive to strike back against that many attacks.

And they have a hard as hell time wounding T5 without using their elites...which would get hammered anyways.

Hmm...I'm going to have to do some pondering on this one.

Maybe give it a big of my own medicine and slam it with 3 or 4 chariots at once....

Gazak Blacktoof
11-04-2008, 16:50
I'm going to enjoy fielding units like this against sword masters and the like.

I pressume that the strikes last ability even affects charging units? If so that's very nice.

I don't know if its possible to get some abilites into the unit to make it more viable at killing heavy cavalry (as opposed to just blunting their charge) but that would be even better.

GodHead
11-04-2008, 16:56
Blunting its charge?

That unit should easily win with its static CR against any frontal heavy Cav attack.

Let's go for the biggest baddest unit we have now, Blood Knights, say 6 of them.
19 attacks, ~13 hits, ~11 wounds.
~7 wounds make it past the Ward save, say 4 make it past regeneration.

Assuming the Blood Knights have a standard, they get 5 CR points.

For the Nurgle anvil, you have 3 ranks, strength, standard, battle standard, +d3 from the Icon.
So you have a minimum of 7, and a maximum of 9.

Winning by at least 2 against charging Blood Knights. That's a pretty blunt charge alright...

theunwantedbeing
11-04-2008, 16:59
The pit of shades works rather well on that unit......

Gazak Blacktoof
11-04-2008, 17:36
Winning by at least 2 against charging Blood Knights. That's a pretty blunt charge alright...

:pPoint taken.

GodHead
11-04-2008, 17:46
The pit of shades works rather well on that unit......

Does anyone actually ever get that spell? It works rather well on a lot of units, but I have actually never seen used it in a game in 6th or 7th edition...

Akuma
11-04-2008, 17:54
With the new HE and seer staff and Tzeensh heralds with all spell from one lore gift will see it's beeing used more often ( i know VC have basicly the same - but thay always use it to take all necromansy spells so thay can augment thays army )

GodHead
11-04-2008, 17:57
Will we really? Because Shadow always seems like one of the greatest lores and everyone always talks about "magic movement this" and "Pit of Shades that" but where I play, it really hasn't materialized.

Honestly, I don't think I can remember a single game in the last 5 years where someone chose Shadow.

Lijacote
11-04-2008, 17:58
The pit of shades works rather well on that unit......

It doesn't work on them any better than it does on any other expensive Initiative 3 unit. And before anyone says it "DISPEL SCROLL!!!!!11one"... Yeah, Pits of Shade work on units and dispel scrolls work on spells. I think everyone gets it. D:

Akuma
11-04-2008, 18:00
I for example sometimes gambled shadow with my empire - my friend used dwarf gunline :/ but he didnt take much scrolls ( spellbraker runes or something ) so i knew if i manage to draw 6 spell i can put his anvil to rest in one turn - it happend quite a few times ... ( one time he menaged to roll 1 on I test :D ) but if I'm playing tzeensh herald with this power and turn up aginst dwarfs or slaan lizards i cant think of a reason not to take shadow ... - this and you can choose the lore before the game not at army creation.

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:03
dont give up high elf players! :D

so what if they always strike first? its a nurgle upgrade and not every unit will have it , just slam a few rounds of eagle claw fire into it , bit of magic :D then maybe a few chariots, and lets face it... not every unit will have some special character / unstoppable hero / lord in it

GodHead
11-04-2008, 18:04
Regular character. Hero level.

They can take 4 of them (minus the BSB).

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:05
i would like to see how that unit could stand against teclis :evilgrin:

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:05
jesus chirst! u can take 4????!!!!

GodHead
11-04-2008, 18:07
Yeah, the character is just a Herald, the hero level Nurgle Daemon.
115 points naked. Significantly more when a BSB with upgrades.

Each of them can take the Noxious Vapours (lose ASF, strike last) and Slime Trail (no flanks or rear bonus for enemies), and each of them gives the unit they join Regeneration.

Akuma
11-04-2008, 18:08
and dont forget gifts are not magic items they can be given to more then one of the said heralds ...

Akuma
11-04-2008, 18:09
and I would want to see how teclis deals with the new bloodthrister :D

GodHead
11-04-2008, 18:11
I think we just crushed soulcrusher's soul.

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:12
ok....

i might need to re think my strategy or just join them!


btw can you tell us some slaanesh rules?

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:13
lol u did crush my soul.....:cries:

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 18:21
ok so they have some deadly special effects, upgrades , magic items

however overwhelming missle power e.g empire, wood elves
strong magic and a massive army e.g orks,skaven would stand a chance

deamons may be powerful but they are expensive

Emeraldw
11-04-2008, 18:24
ok....

i might need to re think my strategy or just join them!


btw can you tell us some slaanesh rules?

Nurgle is the most talked about atm like due their nice stats. Bloodletters all have Killing blow, Str 5, mv 5 and can get hatred. Daemonettes have mv6, 2 attacks, str 3, T3 but have armor piercing. Personally I would use one block of Plauge bearers (maybe two) and a block of daemonettes. I really like a lot of the new units, except horrors. My special choices will be full of Slaneesh likely and khorne with some more khorne rares and Tzeentch heroes (Likely a nurgle herald to go with those plaugebearers).

What I like about the new daemons is that they all compliment each other, Nurgle is tough, Khorne is hard hitting, and slaneesh is fast and hits hard.

Archaon
11-04-2008, 18:36
So how about hammering your secondary or main combat hero into the Nurgle BSB and with a bit of luck vaporize him?

With 3 or 4 attacks (maybe more if boosted by magic/items), a good armor save to survive all these poison attacks (and these have to hit too) and a decent magic weapon it can happen.
His supporting unit engages the Plaguebeares who suddenly don't regenerate, have flanks again and you have dealt with the problem.

Rioghan Murchadha
11-04-2008, 19:03
So how about hammering your secondary or main combat hero into the Nurgle BSB and with a bit of luck vaporize him?

With 3 or 4 attacks (maybe more if boosted by magic/items), a good armor save to survive all these poison attacks (and these have to hit too) and a decent magic weapon it can happen.
His supporting unit engages the Plaguebeares who suddenly don't regenerate, have flanks again and you have dealt with the problem.

Naked DE noble with black amulet... Solo charge, and position so only the herald can hit you... Suck as many wounds as you can (hence the nakedness) and pray for 5s and 6s for your ward save.. ;)

MildlyAbrasive
11-04-2008, 19:22
There is an easy solution that nobody has mentioned. Granted, it's not a solution that every army has access to, but more than a few do; and that is fire. If those Blood Knights in the previous scenario had a super cheap magic banner available to VC, they would have all had magical flaming attacks. Good-bye regeneration.

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 20:33
yesterday when i got some paints i saw the new deamon models getting built by the gw staff, they had already finished a unit of bloodletters ( and they look very nice ) and were startign on the deamonittes, they are so tiny , they make skellies look like orcs, however they should be easy to paint...

im actually thinking about makin an empire army to take on the new deamons

my he army is specifically designed to take on dark elves, lol its full of shadow warriors and lion chariots !

soulcrusher
11-04-2008, 20:40
think about it though? 6 poisened attacks and they strike first ! its nigh unstoppable , however just not attack it

pound the unit with bows, crossbows, cannons , magic etc

and have a masive cheap units, e.g. goblins to hold them in place while you batter them?

a few wizards along with a 20 strong unit of spearmen backed up by a detachment of handgunners would seriously damage those plaguebears.

however is it enough? the unit keeps regenerating and you will be loosing swordsman by the handfulls

i think imho theese new deamons will be VERY tricky to kill and worst of all?
they can seriously damage you back.....:cries:

mistformsquirrel
11-04-2008, 20:43
Egads thats going to make a mess of my poor Tzeentchian warriors <;_;> I mean my Chosen should wound easily enough (albeit going last is going to suck); but regen + ward... ew ew ew...

On the upside, I might just be able to magic the crap out of em. C'mon powerdice don't fail me now! >.< (that might really be my only hope, cause I'm not seeing much close combat being effective here)

superduperkoopatrooper
11-04-2008, 21:01
That unit does not have half the hitting power some people seem to be suggesting. The palanquin's attacks are neat but no way are they going to hurt a half decent hero without some luck.

Plus, the unit moves very slowly and is quite wide.

Lastly, I agree that the herald isn't all that resilient, it may take a bit of effort to wound him but remember he's only got 2. Then the unit loses a whole load of combat res, regeneration, 4 spaces of models in the unit etc.

foehammer888
11-04-2008, 21:10
Unfortunately few fire based attacks are of sufficient strength to get past the T4 well. Plus some armies just can't get enough fire (I suppose now there is good reason to use my Warpfire throwers again). Just don't run up against someone playing tzeentch daemons...

All their attacks (yup, LoC, horrors, flamers, and screamers) are flaming, as are most of the wounds caused by their spells.

Those are some great gifts, but with the standard, magic standard, and daemonic mount make a very expensive model with still just 2 wounds. I would still beware of challenges.

Also, there are also lots of other tempting daemonic gifts for nurgle.

Foehammer

Latro
11-04-2008, 21:20
Lastly, I agree that the herald isn't all that resilient, it may take a bit of effort to wound him but remember he's only got 2. Then the unit loses a whole load of combat res, regeneration, 4 spaces of models in the unit etc.

I'll second that! The Herald is definately the weak spot of the unit. Yes, you'll need something better than the average human hero to pull it off ... but most races have something like that.

Three strength 5 attacks coming in first can be bad ... but at WS 5 they'll probably need 4+ to hit, then a 3+ (or sometimes 4+ to wound) and will only put a -2 on the save. Any serious combat character will laugh at that.

Another six WS 3 strength 3 poisoned attacks are not that impressive either. Let's say that's three hits on average with one of them poisoned (= wound) ... those two hits need 5+ or 6+ to wound and do nothing about the save.

Yes, you might get lucky and kill the attacker before it can do anything ... but the odds are definately not in your favour. A very strong unit indeed, but it does have a soft(ish) spot.


:cool:

(PS I would simply push a skeleton unit in front of it ... remarkable resilient buggers with a little magical support here and there.)

SuperBeast
11-04-2008, 21:26
500pts ish?
Tough, but not un-doable.
Also, flank charging is still of worth against the unit;
As stuff dies - and it will die - unit gets thinner, combat res starts going your way.

Yes, very tough. But damage output isn't that special for the points. Poison + Strike last is intimidating, but really isn't that scary when you think about it.

Von Wibble
11-04-2008, 21:27
Would a palanquin model be able to be singled out by shooting? If so a fiery blast will do the job! Unfortunately I suspecty the answer is no - otherwise noone would use a palanquin.
However a 1+ save lord could handle the exalted in a challenge if carefully equipped (the 6 S3 attacks probably do nothing, the exalted maybe 1 wound) Shame there are potentially 2 others - but at least no BSB there.

Edit - reroll to wound and poison? Seems like a negative synergy to me - the banner doubling CR for poison wounds is surely a better bet.

If not the only thing that occurs to me is that the unit is M4. An army based around a lot of these will easily be outflanked. A more balanced apporach will not allow this but will either have to move slowly or isolate the unit. For this reason I see the strategy as more anvil than hammer.

Still nasty though - in 2500pts you can fit this unit plus a GUO, leaving 2 cheaper core for about 600+ 600+ 500 = 1700pts. Leaving 300 more for characters (!) and 500 to splash out on nurglings and beasts (or faster stuff if you are mixing)

caeanan
11-04-2008, 22:16
The noxious vapors only makes the models in base strike last right? So a unit of 24 HE spearelves in a 6 x 4 block would still get 12 attacks plus the ones not in base with the herald before the demons got attacks correct?

Fulgrim's-Chosen
11-04-2008, 22:19
I'm glad so many have commented on this - it is a very powerful unit for the New Daemons. A couple of things some people seem to be forgetting, that I laid out clearly in the intial post:

1.) The unit has so much Static Combat Resolution that it's questionable if the banner of Eternal Virulence (each wound you cause by rolling your "6" for Poison counts as TWO wounds when you are adding up Combat Resolution) ..would be that much better than the Re-Rolling Wounds that fail (remember we are taking that to benefit the Herald and Palanquin as much as anything)


2.) I laid out the cost and said it was "just over 600-pts" - meaning in even a 2000 pt army you have 1400 pts to play with, more if it's a 2500-pt army. You would only field ONE uber-unit like this, but it would definitely be what I called it "The Anvil AND Hammer of Nurgle" !


3.) Some of you who are saying "oh the Herald isn't that bad, let's just Challenge him !" - are forgetting two things I mentioned in the initial post.

a) - the Herald has Miasma of Pestilence and will DEFINITELY be trying to cast it each round (probably on 2-dice to ensure casting). Thus you will have to be using up Dispel Dice (hope you have plenty cause the GUO will also be slinging spells while all this is happening)..or Dispel Scrolls to stop that going off or your mighty Hero or Lord that is getting ready to attack the Herald will drop to WS-1, STR-1, Tough-1, Init-1, Attacks-1 - and against Toughness-5, if your Lord or Hero lacks a Great Weapon or STR enhancer of some sort, he can't even wound the Herald ! (STR-1 cannot harm Tough-5 !:D)

Even if the spell is NOT cast and you challenge the Herald...he will always strike first (even against High Elves) since his Noxious Vapors makes YOU always strike last. He will get his own 3 WS-5, STR-5 Poisoned attacks. Then he will get his Palanquin (this is one great reason to take the Palanquin - you want the extra power for a challenge situation) and its 6 WS-3, STR-3 Poisoned atacks.

THEN...this is the part some seem to be glossing over - both Herald and Palanquin will re-roll their failed wounds, thanks to the Banner of Seeping Decay.

So they should hit on 4+ for most of their attacks...that's 9 total attacks...figure 4-5 will hit (some might be poisoned)... with re-rolls for wounds, you could figure 4 Wounds (ish) will be caused. Now...granted, the Palanquin's attacks are only at STR-3, but the Heralds are at STR-5 with a -2 Armor Save penalty for his STR. So..yes, heavily armored enemy characters could pose a problem, but you still have to survive the Heralds attacks...AND hit him and Wound Him (Toughness-5)...then hope he fails a Ward Save AND a Regeneration Save.

It's not as simple as some are implying. ;)

sulla
11-04-2008, 23:18
2.) I laid out the cost and said it was "just over 600-pts" - meaning in even a 2000 pt army you have 1400 pts to play with, more if it's a 2500-pt army. You would only field ONE uber-unit like this, but it would definitely be what I called it "The Anvil AND Hammer of Nurgle" !




I dunno. If it works in fact like it seems to in theoryhammer, it would be worth taking 2 units and 2 heralds. You probably wouldn't be able to afford much else in your army... maybe a cheap GD and the other min core, but still a tough army to crack in cc or with shooting.

If it wasn't for me hating the look of the plaguebearers so much, I would probably include some in my army. Alas, i'll just have to make do with a more fagile but more mobile slaaneshi, tzeench combo.

Dark_Mage99
11-04-2008, 23:44
I second the question posted further up: does the Heralds "strike last" power effect everything the unit touches, or just everything he himself touches?

I presume it's just him - so a flank charge still strikes first, assuming they avoid his base.

And yes, he'll be tough to kill in a challenge, but his base is so big that an assassination character can safely charge him and only be in base to base with him, with no risk of champions accepting, or the challenge being refused. There will be characters capable of killing him and foiling a big part of the unit should they survive his barrage of poisoned attacks. He does only have 2 wounds after all.

Still - a very tough unit. Will be interesting to see it in action.

Lordmonkey
12-04-2008, 02:51
Winning by at least 2 against charging Blood Knights. That's a pretty blunt charge alright...

Well, 6 Blood Knights with a command group is still only 360 points. Isn't that nurgle unit worth around 600? You could take 7, give them the Royal Standard of Strigos for hatred, and rack up a lot more kills on that unit (assuming Plaguebearers are still mounted on large bases).

Don't forget the frenzied str4 attacks from the steeds, too! And the fact that a 6(7)-strong unit of knights will probably outnumber after kills...

I think the Blood Knights would win, albiet by perhaps 1 or two points...

P.S. You could probably get up to 4 cavalry in contact with that herald on the charge. Presuming one dies after the herald has his attacks (due to the always strikes last thing) this would be 10 str 7, 6 str 4 rerollable attacks against him (hatred). Theoretically he would die, taking the icon and battle standing completely out of the equation - thats only one wound, plus 3 ranks and a normal standard = 5. Assuming the remaining two knights kill 2 bearers, thats 5 wounds plus a standard and probably outnumbering. The big base is a disadvantage, in this sense.

Rioghan Murchadha
12-04-2008, 05:43
Also, I thought you had to maximize the number of enemies you were in contact with, meaning you can't position your own character in a way that the unit won't hit him, (although you'll likely be in a challenge).
You do.. however, all you have to do is as such..

......N
PCHHSM
PPPPPP

C being unit champ, H being Herald, M and S being musician and standard bearer, N being the DE noble. If you charge like that, the most models in contact you can have with a 20 mm base is 2. Make sure it's the herald and NOT the unit champ, then declare a challenge. The unit champ can't accept by virtue of not being in base contact with an enemy model, leaving only the herald eligible to accept. The Black Amulet should do the rest.


3.) Some of you who are saying "oh the Herald isn't that bad, let's just Challenge him !" - are forgetting two things I mentioned in the initial post.
a) - the Herald has Miasma of Pestilence and will DEFINITELY be trying to cast it each round (probably on 2-dice to ensure casting). Thus you will have to be using up Dispel Dice (hope you have plenty cause the GUO will also be slinging spells while all this is happening)..or Dispel Scrolls to stop that going off or your mighty Hero or Lord that is getting ready to attack the Herald will drop to WS-1, STR-1, Tough-1, Init-1, Attacks-1 - and against Toughness-5, if your Lord or Hero lacks a Great Weapon or STR enhancer of some sort, he can't even wound the Herald ! (STR-1 cannot harm Tough-5 !:D)
Even if the spell is NOT cast and you challenge the Herald...he will always strike first (even against High Elves) since his Noxious Vapors makes YOU always strike last. He will get his own 3 WS-5, STR-5 Poisoned attacks. Then he will get his Palanquin (this is one great reason to take the Palanquin - you want the extra power for a challenge situation) and its 6 WS-3, STR-3 Poisoned atacks.
THEN...this is the part some seem to be glossing over - both Herald and Palanquin will re-roll their failed wounds, thanks to the Banner of Seeping Decay.
So they should hit on 4+ for most of their attacks...that's 9 total attacks...figure 4-5 will hit (some might be poisoned)... with re-rolls for wounds, you could figure 4 Wounds (ish) will be caused. Now...granted, the Palanquin's attacks are only at STR-3, but the Heralds are at STR-5 with a -2 Armor Save penalty for his STR. So..yes, heavily armored enemy characters could pose a problem, but you still have to survive the Heralds attacks...AND hit him and Wound Him (Toughness-5)...then hope he fails a Ward Save AND a Regeneration Save.

It's not as simple as some are implying. ;)

This is what makes a naked DE noble with the Black amulet even more priceless. He WANTS you to wound him... likely 5 or 6 wounds on a T1 WS1 elf... Each 5 or 6 he rolls against those wounds deals 1 back to your herald with NO save of ANY sort allowed... Gotta love it. ;) It may or may not kill him outright, but it will pretty likely come close.

TheSanityAssassin
12-04-2008, 07:42
Hmmm....I might just turn Caradryan into an Elvish suicide bomb and hurl him forward. Works wonders against almost anything. Oh the foolishly expensive lord choices I've smote.

soulcrusher
12-04-2008, 09:12
when caradryel dies dosent the enemy suffer D something wounds?

forthegloryofkazadekrund
12-04-2008, 09:49
daemons hah, throw a chaos dwarf lord on a great taurus with the dark mace of death and watch them fall :)

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-04-2008, 10:21
Good ideas, everyone ! As with all armies, there is never a 100% unkillable or invincible unit. This is just a very hard/tough unit. There will always be ways to beat it...and Daemons will lose games and win games, same as with every army. I merely want to spread the word about the new stuff you are capable of doing with them that you could not do in the past - things that the old Storm of Chaos Daemonic Legion list lacked or cost way too much (let alone the ridiculous Daemons as presented in cost and ability in Hordes of Chaos).


* One interesting Synergy-Combo you can use to boost this Anvil and Hammer unit even further (like it needed it !) is to take an additional Herald...of Tzeentch...give him Master of Sorcery: Lore of Beasts (he replaces his Daemon Lore of Tzeentch spells with the Lore of Beasts, and knows ALL spells from that chosen Lore) ....then cast "The Bear's Anger" on the Herald of Nurgle.

This would boost him to STR-7, Toughness-6, and 6-Attacks ! (all at WS-5 and Poisoned, with Re-rolls to wound thanks to the unit's Icon).

That dramatically boosts his chances in any combat, even with some enemy Lord-level characters (this ignores entirely the times when he will get Miasma of Pestilence off and thus be facing an enemy character with WS-1, STR-1, Toughness-1, Initiative-1, and Attacks-1. .:cool:).


-------

Some might say, "well I'll just dispel the Miasma !" - but you would then be holding back some dice just to stop this simple 3+ casting cost spell (you would probably hold at least 2, or risk the 33% chance of you rolling a 1-2 on your single die Dispel attempt and having the spell go off for the Daemon player).

Thus, if you look at it that way, his ONE 3+ spell is holding up, potentially, 2 of your Dispel Dice. Not every army is built to field 6, 7, 8 Dispel Dice (not that many, in actuality)...so there are many potential opponents you could play where they simply will not have the resources (especially in later turns of the game where they have used up Dispel Scrolls, etc.) to stop all the stuff your Greater Daemon is trying to cast....AND stop the stuff your other Herald(s) are trying to cast AND still have those 2-Dispel Dice left to stop the Herald of Nurgle's Miasma of Pestilence from going off and turning your mighty Lord into a veritable gerbil. :D

sked
12-04-2008, 12:28
I don't think you can cast Bears Anger on a mounted unit.

Von Wibble
12-04-2008, 12:43
I'm glad so many have commented on this - it is a very powerful unit for the New Daemons. A couple of things some people seem to be forgetting, that I laid out clearly in the intial post:

1.) The unit has so much Static Combat Resolution that it's questionable if the banner of Eternal Virulence (each wound you cause by rolling your "6" for Poison counts as TWO wounds when you are adding up Combat Resolution) ..would be that much better than the Re-Rolling Wounds that fail (remember we are taking that to benefit the Herald and Palanquin as much as anything)

;)

This is true. However, I was thinking that this banner would be better if the worst happened and the herald did die. Also not every unit can have a bsb - a clone of the unit I feel would be better with this banner as a result.

And sked is correct - no bear's anger I'm afraid.

But my earlier question wasn't answered - can a palanquin rider be targetted by shooting and magic missiles?

Gazak Blacktoof
12-04-2008, 12:57
But my earlier question wasn't answered - can a palanquin rider be targetted by shooting and magic missiles?

Nope. As I understand it the palanquin is just a steed (non-monstrous mount) It will add one to the model's unit strength, for a total of two.

Revlid
12-04-2008, 15:47
While I won't pretend that's not a vicious unit, I'm confident I could beat it with my Ogres.
My Tyrant and 3 Ironguts charge the unit, head on, with no Gut Magic.
This leads to 1 Wound from Impact Hits. The Tyrant issues a challenge. Let's say the Herald accepts, for the sake of the argument.
If the Herald accepts, the Plaguebearers do approximately 2 Wounds, then I attack back.

A Tyrant with Tenderiser can splat a Herald or the Champion in a single round of combat after receiving a single wound, and then the Ironguts can follow up with, on average, 3 more wounds.

This leaves the 'Bearers with 3 Ranks, Standard, Outnumber, and 3 Wounds, while I have a Standard, Warbanner and 5-66 Wounds. I either lose the combat by one and hold, or draw.

Next turn the Tyrant can focus his attentions on the Plaguebearers, and they'll have already lost 1-2 Ranks. Eventually they'll be destroyed.

And that's without Gut Magic, flanking Yhetees/Bulls, Static Res Gnoblars, etc, for 100 Points less.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
12-04-2008, 19:25
Hope your Tyrant, etc. is going to stop Miasma of Pestilence or he's totally narfed.

-----------

By the way - I was sort of referring to the prospect of an un-mounted Herald of Nurgle with Bear's Anger - sorry if I didn't specify - unmounted he CAN get the Bear's Anger on him and go up to STR-7, Toughness-6, 6-Attacks.

-----------

Against those Ogres, also, since the Noxious Vapors would let the Herald and those Plaguebearers around him attack first against the Tyrant, etc. - they would just focus everything on the Tyrant.

They would get (ideally) 2-Swings from the Champion, 6 from the Palanquin, and 3 from the Herald.

The attacks would all be Poisoned, and they would re-roll failed rolls To Wound.


That would all happen before the Tyrant even got to swing back. Don't think we could (potentially) kill him off with all of that ?

-------

If he did hit...he'd have to hope the Herald fails his Ward Save AND his Regeneration roll, in order for him to be killed.


It's certainly possible - but I think it could go either way, depending on how the Nurgle models roll with their Poisoned attacks + re-rolls for Wounding.

Rioghan Murchadha
12-04-2008, 22:03
Nope. As I understand it the palanquin is just a steed (non-monstrous mount) It will add one to the model's unit strength, for a total of two.

Yeah... would have to check the US of the Herald on 'quin. (I think I'll do that today ;))

I really hate the fact that they changed look out sir, and singling out characters in units from '5 or more same size models' to the target must be US5 or more.

God-damn 7th ed dumbing things down... I swear.. couple more editions and we're going to be playing 40k with swords..

Gazak Blacktoof
12-04-2008, 22:12
That isn't a case of "dumbing down" (that phrase gets chucked about far too often) its simply a change of direction.

I actually like the rule. Cavalry mounted heroes just look cooler and the rule allows for the creation of fun models like the herald on a palanquin without having to worry about idiots sniping them.

Fulgrim's-Chosen
14-04-2008, 11:17
Exactly. If you kept it the old way, nobody would ever field mounted Hero's/Lord's in units - they would always be off on their own, or with cavalry, if your army had it - it would also stop things like the idea of the Palanquin, which is clearly meant to be an "infantry-ish" thing, as opposed to saying "well just put him in with cavalry !" (which Nurgle has none of, unless you count the Beasts of Nurgle ;))

---

Rioghan Murchadha
14-04-2008, 16:33
That isn't a case of "dumbing down" (that phrase gets chucked about far too often) its simply a change of direction.

I actually like the rule. Cavalry mounted heroes just look cooler and the rule allows for the creation of fun models like the herald on a palanquin without having to worry about idiots sniping them.

Perhaps in this case.. However, I tend to refer to any loss of 'realism' if you will, as dumbing down.. Realistically, an officer on a horse is easy to single out in a unit of infantry.

Although if you look at the game, it IS starting to get a tad dumbed down. Fleeing reduced to a pure dice off in 6th ed. Fleeing dumbed down even more to a straight line with a few rules attached in 7th ed because so many people couldn't understand how to properly flee a unit around things. The ramping up of the miscast table, and weakening of magic in 6th/7th ed and the changing of the spell list such that the bulk of spells simply mimic shooting of some sort, or give you magic armour.

Most of the things that have changed are either to simplify, or to pander to the 'I want to play a historical wargame with only blocks of troopers, but with elves and dwarfs' crowd.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-04-2008, 17:37
Perhaps in this case.. However, I tend to refer to any loss of 'realism' if you will, as dumbing down.. Realistically, an officer on a horse is easy to single out in a unit of infantry.

Although if you look at the game, it IS starting to get a tad dumbed down. Fleeing reduced to a pure dice off in 6th ed. Fleeing dumbed down even more to a straight line with a few rules attached in 7th ed because so many people couldn't understand how to properly flee a unit around things. The ramping up of the miscast table, and weakening of magic in 6th/7th ed and the changing of the spell list such that the bulk of spells simply mimic shooting of some sort, or give you magic armour.

Most of the things that have changed are either to simplify, or to pander to the 'I want to play a historical wargame with only blocks of troopers, but with elves and dwarfs' crowd.

Well that's quite a reply, here's my counter.

I see dumbing down as a simplification i.e. the game has been simplified and options have been removed to the detriment of the game. This simply doesn't qualify as far as I'm concerned.

I''m not sure what you mean about fleeing being a pure dice off in 6th, you'll have to explain that one to me.

The new flee rules (straight line + crossfire) actually expand the tactics available and they are easy to work out. The current rules are much more clear and better for the game in my opinion.

7th seems to have less direct damage* and more manipulation/ buff/ de-buff spells than the last edition. The dice pools of 6th edition also discouraged the sensible use of wizards. Now each wizard needs to find their own purpose within an army and their own space on the battlefield.

I think 7th is much better than 6th and that includes the new daemons.



* Last edition spells often had too few restrictions placed on their casting or too many in the case of combat and RIP spells.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 17:47
Quite agree there Gazak...

Certainly, there is a lot more though now put into the Magic Phase, as having limited dice for each Wizard is a major pain in the behind.

Fleeing has been a 'simple dice off' since, well, at least since 4th Edition to my knowledge. And you may think this has dumbed down since you just flee through all units. Makes a lot more sense really. Plus, factor in that pursuers can now fight a second round of combat should they crash into an enemy already engaged whose combat hasn't yet been resolved that turn, and your movement and positioning becomes even more important than before.

Ramping up of the Miscast...thats genuinely a matter of opinion. Fluff wise, Magic is meant to be a dangerous thing if it's break out of control, and the table now reflects this. Considering how much people whinged about Magic heavy armies in the last edition (god knows why....truly killer spells were few and far between if you ask me) I'd have thought the added risk would have been welcomed....

And as for the Spells, Gazak is again correct. Ever since Magic shifted it's place in the phase order, a gamut of options opened up, from Magic Movement, combat buffs, combat nerfs, healing, psychology and not making your Wizard a wuss in combat etc.. Sure, many players stick to the more directly offensive Lores (like, I dunno...Fire, perhaps) but the others appeal to the wiley gamer, who has a good idea of how to engineer situations where the more peculiar Lores can be devastating....

Sorry, but I just don't see the game as being dumbed down, at all. Streamlined, yes. Things flow much faster, but dumbed down? Just can't agree on that one.

Gralph!?!
14-04-2008, 17:57
hmmmm... what could my orcs do against that scary unit.... i could try to cast mork'll fix it off on them thus completely countering poisons effects, reducing the amount of hits, wounds and saves they will make.

a flank charge (which will still reduce ranks but i do not get the bonus for charging into it) will still produce a better result as it reduces your capability alot with no herald. having a unit with shields and choppas are the best option as i will get a decent save and can last a lot longer han with just light armour.

either way the unit is indeed a scary prospect but ifyou keep your cool about you instead of going "omg, broken, that is so unfair" then you are screwed. practically every army has ways to stop that unit.

one thing that should be the aim if the person has any competance left in the other example of vampire knights, is to use vanhels to dance your unit into a flank charge, simply run into set up for it then magic your way in the flank, you still strike first, have plenty of attacks and also creat alot more of an advantage to a frontal assault on the unit.

Rioghan Murchadha
14-04-2008, 19:58
Well that's quite a reply, here's my counter.

I see dumbing down as a simplification i.e. the game has been simplified and options have been removed to the detriment of the game. This simply doesn't qualify as far as I'm concerned.

I''m not sure what you mean about fleeing being a pure dice off in 6th, you'll have to explain that one to me.
6th and 7th ed: both fleeing and pursuing units roll their dice. If the pursuing unit rolls higher than the fleeing unit, remove the fleeing unit from the table, and place the pursuing unit according to the pursuit roll.

4th ed: (Bastards made me go get my 4th ed stuff out :p) Roll the dice for the fleeing unit, and move it, going around any impassable scenery/units etc. AFTER the fleeing unit is moved, the pursuing unit rolls its pursuit dice, and is moved accordingly. IF they catch the fleeing unit (which is not always a mathematical certainty depending on the starting positions of both units) the fleeing unit is destroyed. The slight, but important difference here, is that the 4th ed way gave the fleeing unit a chance of escaping with a lower die roll if it had better positioning than its pursuer. The other important factor is that the tie went to the fleeing unit.. The pursuer had to move further than the fleeing unit to catch and kill it.


The new flee rules (straight line + crossfire) actually expand the tactics available and they are easy to work out. The current rules are much more clear and better for the game in my opinion.
They don't really expand the tactics at all. I hardly consider "put a unit of at least US 5 behind the enemy unit you expect to break." to even qualify as a tactic.. It's more just common sense to take advantage of the rule.


7th seems to have less direct damage* and more manipulation/ buff/ de-buff spells than the last edition. The dice pools of 6th edition also discouraged the sensible use of wizards. Now each wizard needs to find their own purpose within an army and their own space on the battlefield.
7th ed, if you look mainly at the army book specific lores, is better than 6th in that regard, yes. (The main rulebook lores are still largely the same)
However, the utility is still minimal and bland compared to the days of crystal charioteer, sapphire arch, manacle of caloe etc. I also preferred the card method of generating magic power, as it was fair on both sides, regardless of number of mages taken. (You still got as many cards as your opponent even if you had no mages, and could still use all your dispels.) I understand why they switched, as packing all that kit around could get annoying.. I just wish they would've went with something similar but with dice... i.e. roll winds of magic like in 4th/5th ed.. the result is the number of dice which you then divide evenly between the players, with any leftovers going to the person whos turn it is.

I also liked the ability to cast in each magic phase, rather than just on your own turn.


I think 7th is much better than 6th and that includes the new daemons.
I agree with you. Although I'm still sort of stumped on how the heck to do anything to a Nurgle legion with my Dogs of War...



Certainly, there is a lot more though now put into the Magic Phase, as having limited dice for each Wizard is a major pain in the behind.
Perhaps I was unclear, but I was sort of mashing 6th and 7th together in my criticisms. The magic phase itself in 7th I prefer. Along with the return to more utility spells. However, I still find it 'simplistic' compared to 4th edition (which is my personal favorite)


Fleeing has been a 'simple dice off' since, well, at least since 4th Edition to my knowledge. And you may think this has dumbed down since you just flee through all units. Makes a lot more sense really. Plus, factor in that pursuers can now fight a second round of combat should they crash into an enemy already engaged whose combat hasn't yet been resolved that turn, and your movement and positioning becomes even more important than before.
See my response to Gazak on this topic. The gist being that in 4th ed, you move the fleeing unit first, then roll for pursuit. You then move the pursuer, and if it catches the fleeing unit it kills it.. The important thing is, that in 4th ed if you choose to hit a fresh enemy with your pursuit move, and it occurs before you hit the fleeing unit, said fleeing unit escapes.

I do though, like the fact that if pursuers crash into an ongoing combat they get to fight again. A nice touch.


Ramping up of the Miscast...thats genuinely a matter of opinion. Fluff wise, Magic is meant to be a dangerous thing if it's break out of control, and the table now reflects this. Considering how much people whinged about Magic heavy armies in the last edition (god knows why....truly killer spells were few and far between if you ask me) I'd have thought the added risk would have been welcomed....
I'm personally in favour of magic as a force to be reckoned with. You pay enough points for it, and it's fickle and unpredictable. That said, it's remaind so, you now are limited in PD useage, AND the ramped up the miscast table. Fluffwise perhaps it makes sense, but it hurts magic heavy armies quite a bit at the behest of those that want to play historicals with fantasy models.


And as for the Spells, Gazak is again correct. Ever since Magic shifted it's place in the phase order, a gamut of options opened up, from Magic Movement, combat buffs, combat nerfs, healing, psychology and not making your Wizard a wuss in combat etc.. Sure, many players stick to the more directly offensive Lores (like, I dunno...Fire, perhaps) but the others appeal to the wiley gamer, who has a good idea of how to engineer situations where the more peculiar Lores can be devastating....
There were tons of movement spells, and amazing utility spells in 4th ed battle magic, they just operated differently due to the phase order. 7th is better than 6th in this regard, but still falls woefully short of 4th. (Mainly a result of reducing it from its own boxed expansion to a small part of the main book.)


Sorry, but I just don't see the game as being dumbed down, at all. Streamlined, yes. Things flow much faster, but dumbed down? Just can't agree on that one.

Meh.. one man's streamlined is another's dumbed down ;)

I also dispise the ability to wheel at any point during a charge.. that's one 4th ed rule I wish they'd kept..(can wheel once only at the beginning of your charge move) How do you change the direction of a squad running full tilt straight ahead?

I'm simply full of fear that in 8th ed we're going to see weapons with AP values, and everyone moving 4 with 'fleet' elves/beasts/skaven etc.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-04-2008, 20:28
As you say you'll have to go back to 4th to find a different set of fleeing rules and I still consider 7th editions version an improvement over the ones you cited (I barely remember them- its when I statred).

When warhammer is all about positioning I fail to see how getting a unit behind the enemy isn't a tactic. In certain situations having the a unit behind the enemy will result in your units in combat not needing to pursue, enabling you to retain your positioning.*

4th/ 5th edition had worse rules in many ways and I'd rather not see them return.

EDIT *Also if you're still engaged it might be impossible to pursue but the enemy will still get destroyed if they break and run into one of your units.

I'd imagine this will be quite beneficial with the nurgle unit proposed by the OP. Its quite possible that units might flee from the combat one at a time, you can then laugh as they get eaten by nurglings or furies or throw themselves at brick walls.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-04-2008, 01:21
When warhammer is all about positioning I fail to see how getting a unit behind the enemy isn't a tactic. In certain situations having the a unit behind the enemy will result in your units in combat not needing to pursue, enabling you to retain your positioning.*
It wouldn't be so bad if there were restrictions on the type of unit. As it is, it's very simple to get a US5 squad of fast cav, skirmishers, fliers 1 big gribbly etc, behind a unit you're charging. If it were restricted to RnF units in terms of 'crossfire' it wouldn't be so bad, as it would take a bit of work to set things up properly.


4th/ 5th edition had worse rules in many ways and I'd rather not see them return.

5th I'll give you. This is entirely a matter of opinion.. I'm not going to try to say yours is wrong and mine is right, but I liked things like great weapons going last even if charging, handguns firing every other turn... stuff like that. Everything is so samey now. A handgun is just a higher strength bow... A great weapon is pretty much a no brainer on many units that can take it, as the high strength attacks mean that combat will usually be decided in 1 round.


EDIT *Also if you're still engaged it might be impossible to pursue but the enemy will still get destroyed if they break and run into one of your units.
This is true... However it assumes an unrealistic level of stupidity in the fleeing unit.. sort of an "Oh hey.. there's another mass of bad guys right there.. let's just run into them and hope they don't kill us.... Oops... I guess that was a mistake.. AAARGH!!!"


I'd imagine this will be quite beneficial with the nurgle unit proposed by the OP. Its quite possible that units might flee from the combat one at a time, you can then laugh as they get eaten by nurglings or furies or throw themselves at brick walls.

See above where I state exactly why I dislike this rule ;)