PDA

View Full Version : Tau Titans?



Hostilius
11-04-2008, 17:15
You know I dont think I have heard of a Tau titan or anything greater than the Hammerhead in fluffs.

So...since the Tau is so technologically advance shouldn't they have their own version of titan or a mega vehicle like the baneblade so we could have a major Tau unit thrown into the Apocalypse or Epic. Now, now before anyone could shout me down for suggesting something to get Tau nastier, I would want the new vehicle to be balanced in the game of course.

NashTrickster
11-04-2008, 17:31
Erm... What about the Tiger Shark and Manta for things bigger than a Hammerhead?

Tau don't have Titans, they do however have quite a few big flyers which they use as anti-titans weapons...

Vaulkhar
11-04-2008, 17:37
In the sense of 'colossal stompy shooty walking thing', the Tau don't use Titans. Actually, the Tau dismissed the very idea of a Titan as Imperial propaganda...until the Fire caste started running into them and discovered the hard way that 'propaganda' doesn't automatically mean 'lies'. The Tiger Shark AX-1-0's crash development program was started very shortly afterwards.

The nearest thing to a Titan the Tau deploy is the Manta dropship. It's in a similar weight class to the Warlord, is armed to the teeth and is for most purposes a flying Titan. It doesn't quite do the 'monster gun of doom' thing but it can carry a small army in it's own right.

Goq Gar
11-04-2008, 18:14
I've heard of the Tau "Knight" titan somewhere...

No idea what it is/looks like.

Bregalad
11-04-2008, 18:15
1.) There is nothing in the fluff suggesting anything similar to a Titan in the Tau arsenal. The clumsy and immobile Imperial Titan certainly does not fit the mobile Tau warfare.
2.) Tau have met Titans only recently, the first time they were beaten, then they defeated Titans with a mobile flyer (Tiger Shark variant, see Taros campaign). Current doctrine uses mobile flyers to counter super heavies, mostly Mantas and Tiger Sharks. And the classic rail gun is not bad either ;)
3.) Generally, Tau strategies and technology develop fast, this change almost defines the Tau army. So fluff supports Tau developing new strategies to counter the new Titan menace. The new strategies and technology should fit the Tau mentality, that prefers mobility and neglects gaining territory for its own sake.
4.) Some people like me think, that in principle, Titans (that are mobile like the Eldar Titan) would fit into a Tau army as an experimental anti-Titan weapon system, based on the technology of crisis suits (flyers may not always be possible as anti-Titan, e.g. because of heavy anti-aircraft fire, low clouds, debris in atmosphere etc.). At least they offer modelling opportunities or better strategic opportunities in Apocalypse games ("counting as" e.g. Eldar Titans). Two different approaches are by Vash ( http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114247&highlight=tau+renegade&page=3 ), using only official Tau bits, and by me using Japanese Mecha models (see link in my sig). But be aware that some people think, Tau Titans are unfluffy. But then again, some people find Tau themselves unfluffy for 40k :rolleyes:

Aeolian
11-04-2008, 18:18
They don't have the technology to pull it off.

Bregalad
11-04-2008, 18:23
Give us a week :p

starlight
11-04-2008, 18:24
They don't have the technology to pull it off.

Yeah, riiiight...:p

Of all the races in 40K, Tau are the *most* likely to have the tech to pull it off. :p

As noted, check out the links in Bregalad's post for some sweet Tau Titan stompy goodness. :)

While I don't have the desire to build Tau Titans for my own army, I think they are both appropriate to the background, and can look cool as all heck. :D

Durath
11-04-2008, 19:16
Yeah, riiiight...

Of all the races in 40K, Tau are the *most* likely to have the tech to pull it off.
How are you getting that Tau are the most likely to have tech for giant walkers?

Their small scale weapon tech might be better than their imperial counterparts; but lets look at their other tech:

Power Sources - Its documented that during the test phase of the Rail Rifle, there were overheating issues that killed several testers. While it looks like they might have solved this problem with the new Codex, the fact remains that this gun isn't nearly as powerful as a Plasma Gun (which has been around for at least 10,000+ years), yet suffered from similar issues.

Armor - Their personal amor choices, while better than say an orc, don't compare to the protective ability of a Space Marine or a Terminator. The only way to increase protection for a Tau is to increase the mass of the suit (see Crisis and Broadsides).

Tanks - Tau vehicles do use some sort of skimmer tech (probably thruster based), their vehicles aren't much tougher than a Predator.

Walker Tech - Tau do not possess any sort of Drednought sized walker as far as I know. Broadsides are simply bulked-up, stablized, crisis suits with big guns.

In short, Tau tech, while impressive for a young race, is at best comparable to Imperial tech as far as weaponry goes, but doesn't quite measure up in the armor, power, or bionics category. Implying they are the "most likely" to have Titan tech is somewhat invalid given the current fluff.

starlight
11-04-2008, 19:53
Let's see now:

Power sources - not sure why you're comparing the Railrifle with Plasma weapons when the Tau *have* Plasma weapons and it has been specifically noted that they *intentionally* limited the power to avoid the *Gets Hot* disadvantage. The *Gets Hot* rule was a attached to the *Trial* Railrifle rules as a disadvantage. It was later removed since it was found the weapon didn't need such a significant downside. Apples to apples, if you please. :)

Armour - the personal armour on their line infantry is at least as good (and in most cases better) than that of any comparable army, such as IG, Orks, Eldar and the like. MEQs are a different matter all together. Comparing Fire Warriors to Marines or Terminators is just silly.

Tanks - *Toughness* isn't what the game is about. Ask anyone who has faced well played Mech Tau what they about think Tau vehicles.

Walker tech - No race has the ability to field more or better walkers than the Tau. Marines can field at most six Dreadnoughts, whereas Tau can field 24 spread over Crisis and Broadsides. Point for point I'll take Tau walkers over those of any other race in the game.

Now combine that with the fact that the Tau are not only incredibly advanced for their age, but dedicated to improving their abilities continually, which almost no other race can say they do as a matter of deliberate intent. Since they already have far more versatility in their walker tech, it's a much shorter distance for them to go to create Knights and Titans.

However they have found that it's far easier to simply shoot enemy Titans down with existing aircraft mounted rail weapons. :D

Burnthem
11-04-2008, 20:19
However they have found that it's far easier to simply shoot enemy Titans down with existing aircraft mounted rail weapons. :D

QFT

If it aint broke don't fix it!! :D

Lothlanathorian
11-04-2008, 21:13
I wouldn't have gone Crisis/Broadsides=Dreads, I would've gone with a Termie equation, but I can see where you are coming from. And yes, I, personally, can see the Tau building a larger version of the Crisis suit manned by three Shas'ui and commanded by a Shas'vre (or whatever, damn it I don't know, I play Orks lol).

I wouldn't have it be the size of a Warhound though. If it is too big, it doesn't have the 'fast and pouncy' aspect that all Tau weapons do.

Also, for the nay sayers and whatnot who don't quite get the Tau, you aren't thinking like the Tau. They don't think about domination and 'acceptable losses/expenditure'. They think about using exactly what it takes to get the job done without wasting any kind of resource (lives included).

starlight
11-04-2008, 21:22
If the Tau *were* to build an *anti-Titan* Mech, I'd expect something more like a smaller Eldar Titan than Imperial ones.

Fast, 1-2 Manta-class weapons, Stealth tech. Sort of a cross between a Crisis Suit's mobility and a RailHead's weapons, with Stealth generators and Shield Drones. Broadside on steroids rather than a *Tauified* Warhound.

Lothlanathorian
11-04-2008, 21:26
If the Tau *were* to build an *anti-Titan* Mech, I'd expect something more like a smaller Eldar Titan than Imperial ones.

Fast, 1-2 Manta-class weapons, Stealth tech. Sort of a cross between a Crisis Suit's mobility and a RailHead's weapons, with Stealth generators and Shield Drones. Broadside on steroids rather than a *Tauified* Warhound.

Exactly what I said, only with a point, no suck and, well, smarter than what I said lol. Man, I wish that is what I said. So, that is pretty much what I would expect to see.

The pestilent 1
11-04-2008, 21:28
I could easily see a smallish Titan being employed (Comparable to the Imperial Knights, I'm thinking) but like many have said, [comparatively] small skitty things, rather than the lumbering Avatars of War that the Imperial ones are.

Yarick Zan
11-04-2008, 22:29
So the majority of the level headed and supported arguements say that it is infact possible to make asmall Titan, more akin to a Knight. If I might point to some already home made rules (see this link here http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2007/11/play-aid-lords-of-battle.html) for Imperial Knights. If you bother to download that at all, look on pages 7 and 8 and you will see two examples of what I think are decent rules for Knights.

It can be done to make one fluffy and satisfy most. Taking for example the one on page seven, you can do this with it:

Switch the Battlecannon for the Railgun. Simple as that. Maybe limit it to solid shot only. This purely for game balancing. It is also probably as close as we can get to a Battlecannon.

Since the Tau abhor hand to hand, switch the Dreadnought Close Combat weapon for another shooty bit. Probably something like a Snub-Nosed Ion Cannon (figure for this weapon about half the range)

And since the Tau have something that is lovely in its ability to match the Heavy Bolter, switch those to a Twin Linked burst cannon, or a twin linked long barreled burst cannon.

Maybe have a movement of 12 inches, and the limiting factor of either the Ion Cannon or the Railgun fire, one not both, along with the burst cannon for the defensive weapon.

Leave it to have 1 structure point and 1 void shield.

Reduce the number of attacks in the Knight's profile to either 1 or 2 (lack of CCW, Tau mental block against HtH) add access to the vehicle armory, and you might have a pretty good thing going.


Note: I cannot take credit for the Bell of Lost Souls thing, so all due credit to the work they have done. I am just building kind of off what they have done.

starlight
11-04-2008, 22:39
I'd give it:

Shas'el - BS4
Stealth Generators and multiple Shield Drones instead of Void Shields.
Movement - 18" or 12" with 6" JSJ
TL Railgun - both modes *or* Long Barreled Ion Cannon
2x TL Burst Cannon
Ability to use Seeker Missiles from other Tau units and benefit from Markerlights.

Access to the Tau Suit and Vehicle Armouries at double the listed costs. If an item is listed in both Armouries, use the higher cost. May not use Special Issue items.

Bregalad
11-04-2008, 22:57
Replace Railgun with Heavy Railgun (Titan Killer) and add a marker light battery plus a seeker (!) missile pod (!) on each shoulder, a cloud of marker drones and several movement modes (walk, jump, skim, fly, orbital), and you are quite close to what the Earth caste is working on. :p

Stealthy force field protected JSJ Titans with Titan-killers and enough markerlights/seeker missiles should bring down about everything near them. Guess what 5 markerlights on an enemy can do :angel:

Yarick Zan
11-04-2008, 23:12
I like what you have there, but I would say the 12" move with 6" JSJ is a good movement.

I would have the Snub-Nosed Ion Cannon and a single Railgun, not a twin linked one for balance purposes. They wont have the CCW so they would need an appropriate compensation for it, but it shouldn't be overly powerful.

Here is what I would have:

Shas'el - BS4
Stealth Generators and a Tau Shield Generator (counts as a void shield)
12" movement with a 6" assault phase movement
Railgun with both modes and a Snub Nosed Ion Cannon (see stats line below)
2x TL Drone Controlled Burst Cannons

Type:
Super Heavy Walker

Stats line:
WS BS S FA SA RA I A
2 4 10 13 12 10 2 1

Options:
Can equip up to 2 seeker missiles for the normal cost
Can equip the following from the Tau Vehicle armory for 1.5x the normal cost rounding up:
Sesnor Spines, Targeting Array, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter, Target Lock, Flechette Discharger.

The regular Railgun is used simply because I have seen what a Railgun can do to a Super Heavy, and balance is best. Think of it more of a prototype. Like I have repeated many times (I think) balance is the idea here.

Archaon
11-04-2008, 23:51
I rather see them building a heavy skimmer with appropriate large versions of their weapons, i.e. large railgun, large plasmagun, big *******' missiles etc.

Combine 2-4 of these and go pack hunting for Titans.. that should do the job if for some reason no air spport was available or applicable.

For sure the Tau would be able to pull it off since they constantly develop new ways and technologies at an astounding speed whereas everybody else stagnates (though maybe at a highly advanced level like the Eldar).

starlight
11-04-2008, 23:58
Replace Railgun with Heavy Railgun (Titan Killer) and add a marker light battery plus a seeker (!) missile pod (!) on each shoulder, a cloud of marker drones and several movement modes (walk, jump, skim, fly, orbital), and you are quite close to what the Earth caste is working on. :p

Stealthy force field protected JSJ Titans with Titan-killers and enough markerlights/seeker missiles should bring down about everything near them. Guess what 5 markerlights on an enemy can do :angel:

Too much, I think... *way* too much.

No offense, but I just don't see the Tau building something like that. :(

Hellebore
12-04-2008, 00:36
I like that tau don't have titans. It makes them unique and gives a nice dose of irony (OMG!@!!21 Tau are teh anime mech!2_) considering they don't have them.

The only reason the orks, Imperium, eldar and tyranids have them is that they were all designed around the same time to have them for EPIC.

The Necrons don't and the tau don't.

The biggest thing I think they would use is a battlesuit like I made in the Apocalypse thread:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102399


XV99 Barrage battlesuit
This is the heaviest battlesuit producible by the Earth Caste. It is a veritable tank on legs, capable of shrugging off the most destructive of blasts and opening up with battery of deadly weaponry. It is the only battlesuit capable of producing enough energy to power an ion cannon, and some records have shown a single suit wielding four of these powerful weapons.


WS:2 BS:3 S:6 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:2+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear:
Barrage battlesuit
Dampening field
Networked Marker Light
Shield Generator
Two shoulder hard points
Two arm hard points
Two servo hard points

May take one of the following for the shoulder hard points:
2 Ion cannons
2 railguns

May take one of the following for the arm hard points:
2 ion cannons
2 railguns

May take two of the following for the servo hard points:
Railrifle
Plasma rifle
Fusion blaster
Flamer
Burstcannon
Missile pod

The Barrage battlesuit may choose up to one Battlesuit Support System, and any Battlesuit Wargear from the Tau Empire codex.

Special Rules:
Barrage battlesuit
These are the largest battlesuits the tau can manufacture, standing taller than an imperial dreadnought. They give the wearer the Acute Senses and the Slow and Purposeful special rules.

Dampening field
This is adapted form tau stellar technology, and is very difficult to replicate. It makes the bearer imune to instant death.



Hellebore

shaso_iceborn
12-04-2008, 00:58
I like that tau don't have titans. It makes them unique and gives a nice dose of irony (OMG!@!!21 Tau are teh anime mech!2_) considering they don't have them.

The only reason the orks, Imperium, eldar and tyranids have them is that they were all designed around the same time to have them for EPIC.

The Necrons don't and the tau don't.

The biggest thing I think they would use is a battlesuit like I made in the Apocalypse thread:
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102399


XV99 Barrage battlesuit
This is the heaviest battlesuit producible by the Earth Caste. It is a veritable tank on legs, capable of shrugging off the most destructive of blasts and opening up with battery of deadly weaponry. It is the only battlesuit capable of producing enough energy to power an ion cannon, and some records have shown a single suit wielding four of these powerful weapons.


WS:2 BS:3 S:6 T:5 W:3 I:2 A:2 Ld:8 Sv:2+

Unit Type: Infantry

Wargear:
Barrage battlesuit
Dampening field
Networked Marker Light
Shield Generator
Two shoulder hard points
Two arm hard points
Two servo hard points

May take one of the following for the shoulder hard points:
2 Ion cannons
2 railguns

May take one of the following for the arm hard points:
2 ion cannons
2 railguns

May take two of the following for the servo hard points:
Railrifle
Plasma rifle
Fusion blaster
Flamer
Burstcannon
Missile pod

The Barrage battlesuit may choose up to one Battlesuit Support System, and any Battlesuit Wargear from the Tau Empire codex.

Special Rules:
Barrage battlesuit
These are the largest battlesuits the tau can manufacture, standing taller than an imperial dreadnought. They give the wearer the Acute Senses and the Slow and Purposeful special rules.

Dampening field
This is adapted form tau stellar technology, and is very difficult to replicate. It makes the bearer imune to instant death.



Hellebore


That's actually a real nice suit there helebore but even I still like the idea of a titan (hence my topic months ago) but think a Heavy grav tank and that XV-99 would rock

Yarick Zan
12-04-2008, 01:06
Yes I think the super-heavy grav tank is a better idea. Sort of called a Whale Shark or something. Give it say a Heavy Railgun. I have actually thought about making one using a few devilfish kits.

Hellebore
12-04-2008, 01:08
The Scorpionfish?

They use the chasis from an orca dropship and I think the heavier armour and weapons turned it into a skimmer rather than an orbital lander.

I think those work well.

Hellebore

Yarick Zan
12-04-2008, 01:35
2-3 structure points and a void shield, armed with a heavy railgun and some other stuffs that you guys should help figure out?

starlight
12-04-2008, 01:56
Honestly I can't see Tau Titans that heavy. :(

*Tau* and *huge ponderous lumbering mechs* just don't make sense to me. I can handle the idea of Tau having smaller Knight sized Mechs that duck and weave around the battlefield, but not anything like what's being proposed here.

Vash did some cool stuff with his for appearances, but that's the upper limit for size, and maybe even a bit big...

One structure point, and Stealth Generators combined with a small squadron of mixed drones.

shaso_iceborn
12-04-2008, 01:58
2-3 structure points and a void shield, armed with a heavy railgun and some other stuffs that you guys should help figure out?

Seeker,Tracer, and Submunitions missiles like epic for one

But lets design a new one

Say A "Great White Shark"

Fluff: After the battle on Taro the Tau new they needed a Heavy Gunship to compete with other races. However, unlike the "Scorpionfish" This gunship the Auns wanted this gunship to carry the heaviest weapons available to the Tau ground forces. While Earth caste builders went designed several only a few showed promise. One of these few was Great White Shark.

My vision:
Heavy twin railguns mounted on what appeared to be an upsized hammerhead
chassis (about Baneblade sized) Seeker missile banks (total of 8 missiles) 2x Ion cannons (basically where you would normally have smart missiles remember this is a much bigger grav tank) and Target light array as well as Target array(bonus already included), One Overshield

so

Great Whiteshark
Super heavy skimmer
Structure points 3

Bs3/4 13/ 12/ 11 May take any upgrades in Tau vehicle armoury except gundrones

Special rules: Overshield works as followed gives a 4+ to ignore hit -1 for every structure point missing so if the Great Whiteshark lost 1 Structure point it would be a 5+ save 2 would be a 6+ obviously all 3 is destroyed.

Haven't worked out points yet so what do you guys think

Iceborn

Yarick Zan
12-04-2008, 02:15
Better cost a hell of a lot of points. Personally I think it is too powerful. Single Railgun with a support Ion cannon or 2, cut down on the missiles, overshield is pushing it a bit I think. It is just a bit too complex when there is something that works just fine. Just go with a counts as a void shield thing. Armor and BS works out just fine.

Aeolian
12-04-2008, 03:05
Yeah, riiiight...:p

Of all the races in 40K, Tau are the *most* likely to have the tech to pull it off. :p

As noted, check out the links in Bregalad's post for some sweet Tau Titan stompy goodness. :)

While I don't have the desire to build Tau Titans for my own army, I think they are both appropriate to the background, and can look cool as all heck. :D

They don't have the tech to pull it off. They don't have the tech to pull it off. They don't have the tech to pull it off.

Understand this. Just because the understand what technology they have and spread it evenly doesn't mean it's even close to Human or Eldar tech. Human technology, whilst in the Imperium is misunderstood and warped, comes largely from an era that was almost at Eldar levels. The Tau aren't even close the the DAoT and thus most of Human technology.

Humans could make more walkers like Crisis suits, but choose not to. Humans could use railguns, but Plasmaguns do the job better and Lasguns are easier to make.

starlight
12-04-2008, 03:13
You just keep believing that. :p

Aeolian
12-04-2008, 03:19
You just keep believing that. :p

It's not a case of believing, more a case of asinine assumption. The Tau can't match the Imperium in any single field, what makes you think they can build something like an Imperator?

CommissarHybrid
12-04-2008, 06:43
It's not a case of believing, more a case of asinine assumption. The Tau can't match the Imperium in any single field, what makes you think they can build something like an Imperator?

are you paying attention? Nobody on this thread is expecting the Tou to create something that large. Hell, the best the Tou have right now is the Manta, a 2k point spaceship that tries to go toe-to-toe with Warlord Titans. What we want to see, is a 400-800 point titan for the Tou. Something a little smaller than the Warhound, but with comparable firepower.

2 structure points
Power Shields (4+ invul save)
Stealth Fields
Moves 18"

BS: 3 F: 12 S: 12/10 R: 10

Can be armed with two weapons of the following...
Heavy Railgun
Heavy Ion Cannon
Heavy Cyclic Ion Blaster
range: 48" Str: 6 AP: 4 Type: Assault 10, Rending / Assault 15

Is also armed with...
Heavy Smart Missile System
Range: 36" Str: 6 AP: 4 Type: Heavy 4





The Tou have a high level of technology. True, the Imperium has better technology, but the Tou are a young and growing race. It is only a matter of time before the Tou expand beyond the levels of the Human race. Hell, the Orks have titans and all they do is ductape together strips of metal and mentaly will the hunk of scrap to move.

Hostilius
12-04-2008, 13:46
Now, I think I might agree with somebody who says; "Titans do not suit the Tau's way of warfare".

Allright, I think I might take that idea though some might argue using Eldar Titans as an example. Just that I felt EPIC needs more factions to be thrown into the mix. Tau doesn't really need a "Titan" but maybe a mega land-based vehicle to enable them to get into the Apocalypse and Epic games. Currently theres only Chaos, Eldar, Imperials, Orks and Tyranids in Epic. Limited choices IMO for a Warhammer game. The uniqueness of Warhammer and 40k over other franchise is that they have alot of factions to choose from.

And as for the idea of Necron Titans, that is really frightening. A Titan that can revive itself and packs as much punch as an Eldar or Tau. Wonder how many Warlords you need to down a an equivalent class from the Necrons.

Iracundus
12-04-2008, 15:12
The Tau are already depicted as having found their solution to the Titan issue with their rail gun armed Mantas and Tiger Sharks. Those already have Apocalypse and Epic depictions.

As for Necron Titan equivalents, there are a few gadgets in Epic though they aren't giant walkers. The only Necron giant walker ever described, even briefly, is the story bit in the Medusa V campaign where a single giant Tomb spider like construct named the Crypt Stalker (or was it Tomb Stalker?) basically weathered the combined fire of multiple Imperial and Chaos Titans. That might be a bit much for a game. In any case, the Stalker was first worn down by massed fire and then eventually taken down by a Chaos Titan landing a hit directly through a sensor eye with a warp powered cannon. It is not known whether it was a special unique or rare construct or whether the Necrons have many more of its kind.

Bregalad
12-04-2008, 17:09
They don't have the tech to pull it off. They don't have the tech to pull it off. They don't have the tech to pull it off.
You forgot to add: "Naanananaaaanaaaa, I can't hear you!"


Humans could make more walkers like Crisis suits, but choose not to. Humans could use railguns, but Plasmaguns do the job better and Lasguns are easier to make.
Where again are the human plasma and laser guns with range 72"?
If a human machine gets broken, they sing and pray to the Machine God. If a Tau machine gets broken, the earth caste fixes it and goes home designing better ones. Nuff said.

And for everyone else: One argument for Tau Titans is that the Apocalypse rules for them are better than for e.g. flyers. So if the opponent has Titans, you better have them as well on the board.

Hostilius
12-04-2008, 18:00
It's not a case of believing, more a case of asinine assumption. The Tau can't match the Imperium in any single field, what makes you think they can build something like an Imperator?

You gotta admit they're fast catching up. Building a Warhound-sized titan or a super-sized Hammerhead that would able to match the Baneblade would not be beyond them for their current tech.

Adra
12-04-2008, 19:12
I hate quoting me but...


When there's trouble you know who to call. Tau Titans!
From their tower, they can see it all. Tau Titans!

When there's evil on the attack
You can rest knowing they got your back
'Cuz when the world needs heroes on patrol, Tau Titans GO!

starlight
12-04-2008, 19:18
:eek:Are you *TRYING* to get Banned?:eek:



:p

GraemePaul
12-04-2008, 19:31
The Tau have a Titan...

Its called a Manta and is HUGE!

Seriously though I like Tau just the way they are now, You dont have to walk on two (four for nids) legs to fulfil the role of a titan.

Aeolian
12-04-2008, 23:36
Where again are the human plasma and laser guns with range 72"?
If a human machine gets broken, they sing and pray to the Machine God. If a Tau machine gets broken, the earth caste fixes it and goes home designing better ones. Nuff said.

Last time I checked game stats had as little to do with the fluff as ping pong does.

Look there's not a shred of evidence that suggests the Tau are even capable to building a Titan. No amount of handwavium will change that.

Could they design something that could bring a Titan down? Yes. Could they design a large walker? Yes. Can they build something the size of a Warhound that works? Show me.

CommissarHybrid
13-04-2008, 03:43
Last time I checked game stats had as little to do with the fluff as ping pong does.

Look there's not a shred of evidence that suggests the Tau are even capable to building a Titan. No amount of handwavium will change that.

Could they design something that could bring a Titan down? Yes. Could they design a large walker? Yes. Can they build something the size of a Warhound that works? Show me.



"If you build it, they will come."

First and foremost, there are two examples already available on this threat of a Tau Titan being built. If a player wants to build something, and comes up with a believable enough excuse for its exsitance, than game/fluff mechanics allow it.

Building a functioning bipedal war machine that stands 30-40 feet tall is not as complicated as you make it out to be. Take whatever engine powers a Tiger Shark, place it inside an oversized broadside, and and install powerful thrusters in the arms, legs, and torso to enhance mobility. Install a smaller version of the Manta shields, and a larger version of the Stealth Suits 'Stealth Field'.

The Tau already have all the technology they need to create a titan, they lack only the motivation. They, up untill now, have had no need for a titan. If they continue to have problems while running into Titans, than, eventually, an Earth Cast specialist will come up with the bright idea to build their own titan.

If you dont believe me, read IA3. In the book, it discusses the Tau's ability to rapidly produce experimental ships, weapons, and tactics designed to overcome whatever obstical they are presented with. They get punished by Imperial Ships, so they make bigger ships. The ships still get beat by the Imperium, but kill a few before they get destroyed... so, bigger Tau ships will get built in the future. The Tau have problems with Titans. So the Tau upgrade Tiger Sharks so that they can take out a Titan. If the upgraded Tiger Shark proves to not be effective, then it is only a matter of time before they create something else to do the job. Possibly a titan.

Yarick Zan
13-04-2008, 04:31
It has been pointed out many times that the Tau CAN infact make a titan. If you say they have shown no indication that they can, I will reply show me where it says they can't and also point out Crisis suits. I will also point out the whole dreadnought and titan corrolation. I will also It is logic. If you can build something that works like a crisis suit, it shouldn't be too much harder to make it bigger. The same thing can be said for a tank. Armor has nothing to do with technology level. To me however, the use of massive amounts of anti-gravity technology, the sleekness, compact size, and weapons available for the Crisis suit show me that the Tau are on par if not above the Imperium in some levels of technology.

What I see here is a nice modeling opportunity. I can build either a nice super heavy tank, or something like a Crisis suit on steroids. I can make it fair and balanced. If I can do it, I WILL play with it and there is pretty much nothing you all can say to stop me. The only thing that will stop me from playing it is my opponent's consent.

And if anyone brings up no that isn't how it works in real life, you seriously need to take a step back and realize we are talking about a game that supposedly takes place in the future almost 38,000 years, this game is pure fantasy. If anyone compares how things work in real life to anything in this game, I will accuse you of taking the game far too seriously.

So here is how I see this thread. I am going to underline this next bit so it stands out and everyone reads it. I understand fully that the Tau have aircraft that acts as a titan for them. There is no indication that either the Imperium or the Tau Empire are higher when it comes to technology. Both have their strong points. Stop posting things that have been said MANY times before, like the Tau don't need a titan because they have aircraft or that they don't have the technology. This thread is more about kicking around ideas for a Tau Titan, if you have nothing to contribute except the stuff that has been said before, then don't post. Simple request.

So chaps, let us stop with all these pointless comments and start kicking around more ideas for a Titan/Super-Heavy tank. Oh and anyone who waded through that wall 'o text, I commend you.

Hellebore
13-04-2008, 04:34
I will reply show me where it says they can't and also point out Crisis suits.

That's a bad argument - it doesn't say tau can't spit bullets and fart plasma either.

The fact is that the tau as per GW DON'T build titans whether they can or not.

They use aircraft to fill that role.

One thing the Imperial Titan has that I don't believe the tau can produce is the (relatively) portable plasma reactor. I don't think the tau have the technology to produce that power source.

Give them a few hundred years (or an imperial titan to reverse engineer) and I'm sure they will though...

My problem with people wanting tau titans is because of this image that every race HAS to have titans. They don't.

The tau don't and the necrons don't. They are unique in that regard.

Hellebore

CommissarHybrid
13-04-2008, 04:39
Give them a few hundred years (or an imperial titan to reverse engineer) and I'm sure they will though...

have you read IA3?

The Tau already have the body of a destroyed Warhound Titan.

Hellebore
13-04-2008, 04:40
have you read IA3?

The Tau already have the body of a destroyed Warhound Titan.

Yup, I was (rather obliquely) alluding to that...

Hellebore

starlight
13-04-2008, 04:46
Nor do Tyranids, although like the Tau and Necrons, they have something for those wanting something *different*. The question comes back to whether or not you agree with GW's idea of *different*. ;)


As with *anything* that gamers make that deviates from the *GW* view, some will like it, others will not. Although the better made it is, the more will tend to like it... ;)

Hostilius
13-04-2008, 04:47
So chaps, let us stop with all these pointless comments and start kicking around more ideas for a Titan/Super-Heavy tank. Oh and anyone who waded through that wall 'o text, I commend you.

Aye, second a Tau super tank. Now I think GW might felt that denying Tau Titans but giving them aircrafts in Epic to act as variation, so not all faction will have a giant bi-pedal vehicle. Nevertheless, I felt it could even be better with a Tau super tank. Maybe we can have a bigger and badder Hammerhead with dual main cannons but much weaker than a Baneblade in armor.

Yarick Zan
13-04-2008, 04:48
What powers a crisis suit then? What are the Tau Aircraft powered by? It CERTAINLY isn't some form of combustion because those aircraft are more like aerospace fighters, in that they travel in BOTH space and atmosphere. They certainly are not rocket powered, because the tau ships tend not to blow up. Now take a look at the Tau weapons. Plasma rifle, lower power so it doesn't blow up, pulse weapons are mini plasma weapons.

I also seem to recall in some fluff somewhere (can't remember where, some one help out here to quote this for me if you please) the Tau have a mastery of plasma because of one of the races they trade with, or one race that is a member of their empire. That puts the power source thing to bed for me.


Now as I said before, can we NOT bring up aircraft acting for the Tau in the Titan capacity? It is so old it farts dust. It is so old the dinosaurs say "Holy crap that is old." It is so old it needs to be taken to a nursing home for rest. Are you catching what I am meaning? /endrant


Aye, second a Tau super tank. Now I think GW might felt that denying Tau Titans but giving them aircrafts in Epic to act as variation, so not all faction will have a giant bi-pedal vehicle. Nevertheless, I felt it could even be better with a Tau super tank. Maybe we can have a bigger and badder Hammerhead with dual main cannons but much weaker than a Baneblade in armor.

I commend you for taking something away from my post, rather than posting the negatives about it.

Hellebore
13-04-2008, 04:52
Nor do Tyranids, although like the Tau and Necrons, they have something for those wanting something *different*. The question comes back to whether or not you agree with GW's idea of *different*. ;)


As with *anything* that gamers make that deviates from the *GW* view, some will like it, others will not. Although the better made it is, the more will tend to like it... ;)

My problem mainly is that there isn't really anything original or 'better' or unqiue about sticking a giant robot in the army, no new angle or unique origin to work with.

It's pretty much universally 'everyone else has giant robosmash, I wants one too!'

Hellebore

Firaxin
13-04-2008, 04:53
I don't get Tau people.



Power sources - not sure why you're comparing the Railrifle with Plasma weapons when the Tau *have* Plasma weapons and it has been specifically noted that they *intentionally* limited the power to avoid the *Gets Hot* disadvantage. The *Gets Hot* rule was a attached to the *Trial* Railrifle rules as a disadvantage. It was later removed since it was found the weapon didn't need such a significant downside. Apples to apples, if you please. :)
Imperial plasmaguns get hot, yes. But if you read the fluff, it's every 50-100 shots, or never, if they space the shots out enough. Take a look at old human history. Cannons would explode all the time, right up through the American civil war and later. Did anyone think to build non-exploding cannons at the expense of their power and psychological effect? No. I don't see tau plasma penetrating eldar tank armor.



Armour - the personal armour on their line infantry is at least as good (and in most cases better) than that of any comparable army, such as IG, Orks, Eldar and the like. MEQs are a different matter all together. Comparing Fire Warriors to Marines or Terminators is just silly.
I think, personally, its a reasonable comparison. There are probably as many space marines as there are enlisted fire warriors. I'd reckon there's a brigade of carapace armored guardsmen for every individual citizen in the Tau empire. And, concerning non-marine power armor, there are more sisters of battle/inquisitors/etc in the imperium than there are tau, but certainly not as much as there are carapace armored gaurdsmen. Just because the majority isn't equiped with it, doesn't mean it's beyond them or they don't understand it.



Tanks - *Toughness* isn't what the game is about. Ask anyone who has faced well played Mech Tau what they about think Tau vehicles.
So, you ask for fluff examples, but when you get shown up, you whine and go bring up an example of how effective tau tanks are in game, and not even that they're hard to kill. Well sorry. Apples to apples. Power armor is far slimer than a battlesuit, but grants the same save. Terminators are a closer size (but still smaller) and have a BETTER save. The point here is that a tau titan would have to be amazingly fat to have any sort of apreciable armor value and structure points. (Kinda like how iridium armor causes them to become slow and purposeful, eh?) And with that fatness, it becomes far harder to stabilize, which I'll adress below.



Walker tech - No race has the ability to field more or better walkers than the Tau. Marines can field at most six Dreadnoughts, whereas Tau can field 24 spread over Crisis and Broadsides. Point for point I'll take Tau walkers over those of any other race in the game.
Firstly, tau battlesuits are nothing like dreadnoughts, aside from the fact that they have a pilot, 2 arms and 2 legs. They can hardly even support the thing's weight on their legs, instead they use jump packs to move every where. Well, you can stick a jetpack on the back of anything the size of a titan without imbalancing it horribly (meaning you'd have to make the jetpack bigger...). So a walking tau titan would be a) an immensly large target, b) easy to imbalance/knock over (and it won't be getting up anytime soon, like old knights in shining armor), c) very very slow, and, d) as a consequence of the aforementioned problems, would be entirely against the tau doctrine and never even looked into.

A small, thinly armored titan with bulky legs seems more feasibly, but it would be something like AV10/10/10 and 1 structure point.

Hostilius
13-04-2008, 04:55
Now come to think of it, I felt heavy flyers should not go to Tau but rather to Dark Eldar's answer to Titans.

Yarick Zan
13-04-2008, 05:11
Now that you mention it, I agree Hostilius.

Oh and by the way, those of us that want to kick around the thought of a Tau Super-Heavy go here please:

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2519333#post2519333

wilsmire
13-04-2008, 05:21
one small note about a tau titan power source--some of you are saying it is impossale for the tau to power something that big. has any of you looked at the rules for the manta the darn thing has 10 sturcture points and it is an orbital lander

starlight
13-04-2008, 05:21
Shush, you'll ruin their fun. :p

wilsmire
13-04-2008, 05:24
yea i know i can ruin their fun---i left out all of the weapons and there is a lot of them

CommissarHybrid
13-04-2008, 05:27
I also seem to recall in some fluff somewhere (can't remember where, some one help out here to quote this for me if you please) the Tau have a mastery of plasma because of one of the races they trade with, or one race that is a member of their empire. That puts the power source thing to bed for me.




I know what your talking about. the name of the race begins with a D. They are Dwarf-like and are not the Squats. Last I heard, they are a highly technological race which makes wide use of drones and mines alot. It was said that the Tau Ion Cannon was designed off of one of their mining lasers.

MIGHTYPanhead
13-04-2008, 07:27
Although I do propogate the "aircraft over larger crisis suits" point of view, This has made me do a double take (http://www.advancedtautactica.com/viewtopic.php?t=7596).

As much of a fluff nutter as I am, when something looks that cool, it's hard not to like it. I'll be making one once I make the jump to apocalypse :D



I know what your talking about. the name of the race begins with a D. They are Dwarf-like and are not the Squats.

Demiurg :)

Bregalad
13-04-2008, 10:47
Can someone confirm that in Apocalypse games, Titans dominate over tanks and flyers? So that if you don't own a 40k scale Manta, you get PWNED if the opponent has some Titans?

Dreachon
13-04-2008, 11:50
My warhound doesn't own the games, it can do a lot of damage but only when the dice are in my favour, otherwise it just manages to get its points back.
Normal railguns are more than capable of taking down a titan.

shaso_iceborn
13-04-2008, 14:44
Can someone confirm that in Apocalypse games, Titans dominate over tanks and flyers? So that if you don't own a 40k scale Manta, you get PWNED if the opponent has some Titans?

even if you do own a manta :) because of it's rules about anti aircraft fire it still takes a beating (also note that drive damaged is loss of a structure point) all in all to me The manta is not worth it.

P.S. My manta is a scratch build I designed based off of the real thing (a friend of mine owns one that he lets me play in our games though now we only use the scratch build as the real thing is to price to risk)

Promethius
13-04-2008, 16:40
Firstly, tau battlesuits are nothing like dreadnoughts, aside from the fact that they have a pilot, 2 arms and 2 legs. They can hardly even support the thing's weight on their legs, instead they use jump packs to move every where. Well, you can stick a jetpack on the back of anything the size of a titan without imbalancing it horribly (meaning you'd have to make the jetpack bigger...). So a walking tau titan would be a) an immensly large target, b) easy to imbalance/knock over (and it won't be getting up anytime soon, like old knights in shining armor), c) very very slow, and, d) as a consequence of the aforementioned problems, would be entirely against the tau doctrine and never even looked into.

A small, thinly armored titan with bulky legs seems more feasibly, but it would be something like AV10/10/10 and 1 structure point.

This makes sense to me. The arguement that Tau could build titans by simply upsizing existing walkers seems...dodgy to me, and even if it was that straightforward (which it isn't, the same logic could be used to say that because the Imperium can build landspeeders they could therefore up-size the tech and build floating battletanks) Firaxin has nicely explained why a bigger battlesuit wouldn't really work. The Tau would have to come up with an entirely new design, and unless they are having problems dealing with titans/superheavies (which it doesn't sound as if they are) I can't see why they would bother.


Walker tech - No race has the ability to field more or better walkers than the Tau. Marines can field at most six Dreadnoughts, whereas Tau can field 24 spread over Crisis and Broadsides. Point for point I'll take Tau walkers over those of any other race in the game.


I'm not sure I agree with this. Eldar can field entire armies of walkers in the form of wraithguard and wraithlords, which are arguably far more advanced. The Imperium has access to mind impulse units, which are at least as advanced a control mechanism as any Tau walker posesses, and in addition can churn out cheap walkers by the bucketload in the form of the humble sentinel.

Aeolian
13-04-2008, 17:21
Nobody has actually given a good argument as for why the Tau have the ability to build Titans. As you can't prove a negative I don't have to give a shred of evidence as for why they can't, so I'm waiting for a good argument here.

Proponents of handwavium need not apply.

Hostilius
13-04-2008, 18:01
Nobody has actually given a good argument as for why the Tau have the ability to build Titans. As you can't prove a negative I don't have to give a shred of evidence as for why they can't, so I'm waiting for a good argument here.

Proponents of handwavium need not apply.

The original purpose of the thread is to discuss of the possibility of Tau having a giant bi-pedal vehicle (Titan) order to have a "Titan" equivalent in game. I felt flying heavies somehow "does not count", I mean Epic is all about tiny armies supporting a giant mech. But I have since agree there should be variation in armies, some have giant mech others have mega tanks or flyers.

In the fictional universe of 40k, the Tau can have a Titan if we decided to make it so. And if somebody might wanna shoot me down for being anti-canon, I'll just say shoot Gav Thrope first.

Aeolian
13-04-2008, 18:16
The original purpose of the thread is to discuss of the possibility of Tau having a giant bi-pedal vehicle (Titan) order to have a "Titan" equivalent in game. I felt flying heavies somehow "does not count", I mean Epic is all about tiny armies supporting a giant mech. But I have since agree there should be variation in armies, some have giant mech others have mega tanks or flyers.

In the fictional universe of 40k, the Tau can have a Titan if we decided to make it so. And if somebody might wanna shoot me down for being anti-canon, I'll just say shoot Gav Thrope first.

I don't care about the original purpose. I said they didn't have the tech and someone decided to say they did. I don't have a problem with you exploring possibilities.

Yarick Zan
13-04-2008, 18:26
I don't care about the original purpose. I said they didn't have the tech and someone decided to say they did. I don't have a problem with you exploring possibilities.



You saying they don't have the tech is the same hand wavium you keep on saying that people are having for wishing they did have a titan. Simple as that. Either way there is no conclusive evidence either way weather they can or cannot build it. Just because you say it doesn't make it so, and just because we say it doesn't make it so. Simple as that. If you don't have a problem with people exploring possibilities then why do you seem so determined to try to undermine any creative reasoning the people in this thread may have?

Now I am not going to begrudge you for having a different opinion than me, but I am of the opinion they are perfectly capable of building something Titan sized, or knight sized. That is me. You have yours so I guess that is where we differ. It is pointless to keep on putting fourth your opinion in a topic full of people whom regardless of what you say will do what they want to.

Bregalad
13-04-2008, 20:13
Nobody has actually given a good argument as for why the Tau have the ability to build Titans. As you can't prove a negative I don't have to give a shred of evidence as for why they can't, so I'm waiting for a good argument here.

Proponents of handwavium need not apply.
1.) Tau technology advances incredibly fast. If Tau can't build it today, they might do so tomorrow. So ruling out one technology (with the possible exception of warp or psionic technology) contradicts Tau fluff.
2.) Tau have the biggest selection of and experience with battle suits. Every army has at least one (commander suit 1+). They are standard technology, common and have a wide selection of add ons (stealth, jetpacks/anti-grav, force fields, marker lights, wide selection of weapon systems up to rail guns). Battle suits are a main focus of current Earth caste R&D.
3.) Only recently they met Titans. First they were unprepared, then on Taros they made a surprise attack with flyers, next time the opponent might be prepared for this. With Apocalypse, the number of Titans in battles increases, and Earth caste has to come up with an alternative solution fighting them. Either a super heavy tank or a giant battle suit.
4.) Tau already have: Heavy Railguns and other big weapon systems, basic battle suit technology, big engines that allow VTOL and hoverin gin the air (Orca, Manta) and help with mobility and leg construction (no need to walk), AI, drone controllers for clouds of shield and marker drones, stealth technology to lessen need for clunky armour (see Eldar Revenant).

Non-fluff reasons:
1.) Titans are good in Apocalypse games, Tau currently don't have Titan or super heavy tanks, only very vulnerable flyers (including the luxus manta). So instead of an allied Titan, the tau might field their own one.
2.) The main inspiration for tau are japanese Mecha mangas. Battle suits are the main characteristic for a Tau army. So big battle suits (EVAs and Gundams ARE battle suits with a pilot) fit perfectly into the Tau army.
3.) Rule of the cool: It is a cool conversion project, it has official rules for Apocalypse games (counting as allied Eldar Revenant Titan), it is fun, so why not?

starlight
13-04-2008, 20:32
Since the OP has spoken, any further off topic discussion will be purged. If you don't like the subject of the Thread, feel free to start your own.

starlight
The Warseer Inquisition

Dyrnwyn
14-04-2008, 02:38
Well, When I wrote up my My Tau Titan datasheets, I did so from the standpoint that they were originally space-based battlesuits, needing more armor and a gravitic drive system, hence their size. You might want to take a look at the rules/fluff yourselves for another idea behind a titan-equivalent.

BTW, I know the double CCW's are not exactly Tau-ish, but I viewed it more for deconstruction purposes than giant robot fistfight reasons. Also, the rules were essentially written for models based on the Matchbox/Playmates Invid mecha; the Scout (http://www.toyarchive.com/Robotech/st5/noninv.html) and the Shock Trooper (http://www.toyarchive.com/Robotech/st4/vehsho.html)