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ody2002
11-04-2008, 21:39
Just a practical question. Horse-mounted characters can join rank & file units correct? Is there any special protocol for placing a 25mm wide cavalry model into a 20mm based rank & file unit? Do you just pull 2 guys out and place the character in there cocked to the side or must he stay on a flank to increase the frontage?

Appreciate any help.

Malorian
11-04-2008, 21:49
The frontage is the length of the models in the front.

Just leave pags in the back ranks.

T10
11-04-2008, 23:37
Strictly speaking, base contact is base contact, so a 5-model wide unit of 20 mm rank and file joined by a character with a 25 mm wide base would be 105 mm rather than 100 mm.


Please note that the rules do not address the issue of units containing models with different base sizes. The direct implementation of the rules would suggest that each model may only be included in asingle rank or file, which quickly results in somewhat ugly formations with huge gaps in them.

-T10

Lordmonkey
12-04-2008, 03:05
Please note that the rules do not address the issue of units containing models with different base sizes.

GW seem to have shied away from this issue for years... it isn't the only one :p

woytek
12-04-2008, 10:18
Where is it stated that my goblins, for example, should be on 20mm bases? I really think some rules are needed on this subject. (not that I am fielding a lot of goblins... but still)

DeathlessDraich
12-04-2008, 10:57
Just a practical question. Horse-mounted characters can join rank & file units correct? Is there any special protocol for placing a 25mm wide cavalry model into a 20mm based rank & file unit? Do you just pull 2 guys out and place the character in there cocked to the side or must he stay on a flank to increase the frontage?

Appreciate any help.


1) A 25mm wide model will replace only one model and should count as 1 model unless specifically stated by the rules e.g. Slann' palanquin and Screaming Bell.

2) There is a promised FAQ on this matter but it has remained no more than a promise so far.

Yehoshua
12-04-2008, 13:06
Argh. See http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126702

We've already hashed this out as well as we probably can. I think that the consensus (with DD being a notable objector) is that the rules on p.38 tell us that a rank bonus may be claimed, so long as the formation is at least five models wide, for every rank beyond the first that contains at least five models.

Therefore, a unit that otherwise would satisfy the rules above should not be denied a rank bonus simply because a model (or more than one) in the formation occupies two ranks.

Ergo, a 25x50mm model joining a unit of 20mm^2 models would occupy a position both in the front rank and in the second rank, thus potentially granting a rank bonus where one would otherwise not occur (i.e., with only 8 r'n'f models left in the unit). Unfortunately, this also creates a rather ugly aesthetic situation where the larger model either juts out and forward or displaces the smaller models to the rear (forcing them to jut out at the back).

Esoterica:
Some would argue that a rank bonus could be claimed where a model occupies multiple files (e.g. a 40mm^2 base in a unit of 6 20mm^2 models), even if there are not five individual models in each rank. This is because the opening sentence of the second paragraph of Extra Rank uses the words: "five models wide."
However, I personally think this is implicitly contravened by the language at the end of that second paragraph: "The bonus can be claimed for an incomplete last rear rank, so long as it contains at least five models."
This language indicates that the relevant quanta for satisfying the Extra Rank rules is "one model" and not "the width of one model." If the width of the models was relevant, would not a 20mm^2 character (or a 25x50mm character on steed) joining a unit of 5 40mm^2 models potentially provide a rank bonus (or more than one)? That seems untenable.

Tarax
12-04-2008, 15:19
Where is it stated that my goblins, for example, should be on 20mm bases? I really think some rules are needed on this subject. (not that I am fielding a lot of goblins... but still)


I believe somewhere in the rules, or it may have been in a WD article, that models should be placed on the bases they come by.
(But, being GW, they sometimes put the wrong bases in a box. :rolleyes:)
Though some models are represented in the Unit Strength Chart on p. 71 of the BRB.

Griefbringer
12-04-2008, 16:02
GW seem to have shied away from this issue for years...

Well, they addressed it in a 6th edition rulebook FAQ - however that was never integrated to the 7th edition rulebook...

ZeroTwentythree
12-04-2008, 22:52
1) A 25mm wide model will replace only one model and should count as 1 model unless specifically stated by the rules e.g. Slann' palanquin and Screaming Bell.



The Screaming Bell having its own issues as it doesn't have a specified base size nor a specified number of skaven infantry that it displaces. Only that it does (in some undefined manner) replace multiple figures.

Mine's mounted on a base 100mm wide by 300mm deep.

(Just kidding. :D )

Lordmonkey
12-04-2008, 23:39
Where is it stated that my goblins, for example, should be on 20mm bases? I really think some rules are needed on this subject. (not that I am fielding a lot of goblins... but still)

Agreed. What stops me, for example, from turning up to a tournament with a chaos hordes list based on 20mm x 20mm? Is it in the rules that I should base my models on any other size?

Someone should do this at the GT just to prove a point.

One.Fit.Outcast.
13-04-2008, 00:02
I think GW tried to get round this by saying all models should be mounted on the standard bases supplied with them or something like that, or was that just LOTR/40k (can't honestly remember)?.. But also, what about a Chaos Dragon, now many people will be using the high elf dragon (preferably extensively modified) to represent them, which gives a significant advantage if flank charged when the lord is wielding a berseker sword giving extra attacks the more models in base contact..

WLBjork
13-04-2008, 09:39
40K says you can put a model on a larger base than supplied (but not smaller).

WHFB requires you to use the base supplied or the base defined on the (now outdated) base size chart.

T10
13-04-2008, 11:14
Base sizes in WFB and how they are arranged in units is more a matter of convention/house rules/common sense than anything else. It is commonly held that using the bases provided is the way to go.

You can also take a look at the hobby sections fo the army lists and in White Dwarf to see what base sizes are used there.

-T10

TheDarkDaff
14-04-2008, 08:08
Just a practical question. Horse-mounted characters can join rank & file units correct?
Yep that right. Just to be clear Cavarly models can also be "rank and file units". You are asking can Cavalry Character join infantry units.


Is there any special protocol for placing a 25mm wide cavalry model into a 20mm based rank & file unit? Do you just pull 2 guys out and place the character in there cocked to the side or must he stay on a flank to increase the frontage?

Appreciate any help.

See T10's post above. There is no rule as such but most people i have seen follow the old FAQ about Characters displacing rank and file models.

I can't help but think it would be so much easier to just include this in the rules than to wait for an FAQ on how we should do it every single edition.

One.Fit.Outcast.
14-04-2008, 22:54
I can't help but think it would be so much easier to just include this in the rules than to wait for an FAQ on how we should do it every single edition.
Isn't that the story of warhammer rules since the very beginning though?:evilgrin:
but yeah, on a less GW-bashing note, it would be easier if they were a bit clearer.