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Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 01:06
In a way, this is going to be a rant, but, brought on by a serious issue I've been having over the last couple of games concerning a doubles battle, and how my opponents dealt with, in all manners, a significant victory on our part...

It was a battle between Skaven and Vampire Counts, now normally, I would've been worried, but together we built a list that, for once, did not max out on Magic, Shooting or the horde aspect, but still had significant shooting and magic (although 12 dice is not alot, compared to what I can achieve.) The general plan was to place a very, very tempting target that was a 30 clanrat strong, slave infested front line, with the Grey Seer in the front line.

We deployed Night Runners, Ratlings and Cavalry (Dogs of War, to throw the opponent) and the jezzails to one side (only 8 of them though) and had the ratling/slinging Night Runners come up one flank, and the right blank packed it's punch, pushing back the Black Knights and ghoul units in a flurry of jezzail fair and Warp Lightning.

This forced most of the vampires forward, and turn two we Skitterleaped the Greyseer away from the center to stay to the right, lending his missiles to that flank and to unleash Plague where it would connect with the enemy line and not to us.

Now, once their flanks gave way and we moved our flanks round in the classic, classic Bullhorn endeavour. The combined firing power of three Ratlings and the Night Runners double shotting (and march blocking their main line) literally ripped everything they had apart, a feat we could not have managed if the Banshee to the left flank had Terrored the clanrat unit with engineer away (which it did to our cavalary and a night runner unit) and if their rolls had not failed in the onslaught to the right flank.

Tactics here - shooting placement. Splitting the ratlings into three points of fire on three sides, Warp Lightning coming from the two extreme flanks.

Bullhorn. Splitting and pulling the enemy line directly into a box (which they had no choice but to walk into.)

So no bell, only two engineer's, and yes, we had three ratlings, but when your usual opponents are Dwarfs, Empire, Wood Elves and High Elves and Dark Elves, you want to be able to SHOOT something once in a while.



So with a movement based tactics and a severly reduced amount of magic (so called SAD) I very much played Skaven in a way entirely different (yet similar) and still we got the barrage of 'nothing we can do' and 'too much cheesy shooting' and 'no tactics involved at all.'

They insisted the only tactical option or thought involved in Skaven was the Checkerboard Horde army (which crumbles against Fear and Terror very, very quickly.) And ignored every explanation, twist and turn we threw at them about how we dumbed down the list. (I've taken 16 dice and 7 dispel dice, on a Bell, with 20 Jezzails against the same players before and had no complaints.)

---

I tried to change, and would happily play non-magic armies (we had a rematch using Dark Elves with NO magic and got absolutely slaughtered) and after we DID listen to them, to try and please them, they went the whole 'well you need balance in an army' despite us doing this the first time!

Why do I feel bad? It's not my fault that Magic in Skaven is so offensive, but everything we do to appease the Skaven haters does gets thrown back in our face. The funny thing is, no matter how I play other armies (including my Green Skins) they have no complaints, and definitely I have no chance so far of winning. (My record with Skaven is considerably better.)

What should I do? Should I continue to play the way I do, which is NOT as SAD as people believe, or drop my win ratio to try and please a considerably better player with a gripe against the Skaven?

Gabacho Mk.II
12-04-2008, 01:20
Im sorry, but 12 pd and three ratling guns and (2?) warp lightning going off each round is (IMO) quite SAD.


While you disagree and venture to declare your army build as only bordering on SAD, I would bet that most who read your list would agree with my stance.


As to what you are asking, I honestly dont know how to answer it. Sorry.

Someone will surely give you a better answer than I have.

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 01:30
When I could've had 16 power dice, 20 jezzails, 5 ratlings and two cannons and 3 engineers instead of 2 and a chieftain, it's hardly, hardly 'SAD' at all.

Why should Skaven players have to put up with this sort of blind sided accusing anyway? It offends me almost to have SAD rammed down my throat at the slightest hint of a shooting or magic round at any point of the game. Am I just catching up with this sort of rant? I fancy it's rather like Dwarf players fed up of being accused of heavy magic defence just because they have 4 basic dispel dice. (Which is probably a terrible example.)

Lordmonkey
12-04-2008, 01:51
When I could've had 16 power dice, 20 jezzails, 5 ratlings and two cannons and 3 engineers instead of 2 and a chieftain, it's hardly, hardly 'SAD' at all.

No, I have to strongly agree with Gabacho - those 'reductions', as small as they seem to you, still leave you with an army that is effectively a gunline - which is what Skaven SAD is. Swapping one engineer for a cheiftain and removing 12 jezzails and 2 ratling guns doesnt suddenly make the list balanced.


Why should Skaven players have to put up with this sort of blind sided accusing anyway? It offends me almost to have SAD rammed down my throat at the slightest hint of a shooting or magic round at any point of the game.

2 Warp Lightning Cannons, 3 Ratling Guns and 8 Jezzails is more than a slight hint of a shooting phase. It's going to cause some damage, and the enemy will notice. This combined with the 2 engineers and the grey seer will still perform like a typical Skaven SAD, even if it isn't maxed out completely.

If you want to try out a balanced list, first of all make your general a combat-type character - NOT a grey seer. That is a huge start. Bring along a couple of Engineers, but don't try and dominate the magic phase - just be a tad competitive. Try using only one Warp Lightning Cannon, and vary your support teams outside of Ratling Guns. Spend the points on some Storm Vermin to add some power to your combat phase. Perhaps even invest in a few units of Skaven Slaves, to bait and trick the enemy for flank charges.

Experiment in the movement and combat phase.

Hope this helps :)

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 02:00
Hehe, thanks for advice, but I didn't have any Warp Cannons, and had three units of Slaves in the list - I have to say I was cheesy with the Warpfire Throwers, knowing that they wouldn't cause panic as normal against undead swayed me to take a third Ratling over the normal 2:1 ratio.

I take the Grey Seer because he is part of the background and fluff og the Narroq army, but I have played a Warlord lead army, but for me, it doesn't work at 2000 points. When I play Skaven at 1999 or less, I usually have one engineer, lots of combat units, a Chieftain and a Plague Priest, giving me a grand total of two spells, and 4 casting dice - it's just where I feel comfortable I suppose - I definitely need to do more March Block/Flanking with Night Runners though, I had my entire flank stopped this evening because of ONE sorceress, not impressed...

Dux Ducis
12-04-2008, 02:03
Try to play for once with no shooting, minimal magic (a couple of scroll caddies) and rely on frenzied troops such as plague monks and censer bearers. Nasty things they are.

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2008, 02:10
To avoid SAD you have to properly nerf your magic phase.
And by that I mean, you arent taking 3 warlock engineers witha storm daemon...your taking 1 of them with no storm daemon.
Immediately this cant be called a SAD army (unless of course you've just compensated with huge numbers of jezzails, 2 warplightning cannons and a whole heap of ratling guns)

Take an army with no skryre troops whatsoever (save for a max of 5 jezzails and 2 weapon teams). There is no possible way this army can be a SAD list.
You load up very heavily on numbers, using slaves to really add bulk to the force as well as taking a LOT of clanrats in several units to allow you to take several units of the other avialable things.
Like night runners....4 clanrat units, thats 4 units of night runners you get to take, 4 units of giant rats you get to take, 4 units of rat ogres you get to take...etc etc

This gives you more options than just "shoot the enemy untill they die"

GodHead
12-04-2008, 02:17
Don't worry. The new Tzeentch Daemon players will soon join the sad Skryre Skaven players as being universally reviled.

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 02:22
I guess the general consensus is 'have absolutely no Dispelling at ALL and get magic ranked' or be automatically hated...

Fundamentally, that's wrong - not the list, the players...

Wow, I guess everyone else figured this out years ago, lol.

Arguleon-veq
12-04-2008, 02:23
Im assuming you were playing 2K? If it was a fair bit more than that then your list cant really be said to be SAD.

I do think a Grey Seer, Engineer, 2 Cannons, 8 Jezzails and 3 Ratling Guns is SAD.

I have a mate who runs Skaven with a Grey Seer, Engineer, 1 Cannon, 4 Jezzails, 1 Ratling Gun, 1 Warpfire Thrower [plus a few globadiers] I wouldnt call that SAD. He has enough shooting to cause some problems in the shooting phase, enough magic to usually controll his own magic phase and then enough points left over to fight in combat [with night runners, big units of clan rats and Stormvermin with a Chieftan].

I find that to be a fun army to play against, its nice and balanced.

I think Ratling Guns are the main thing really, they decimate whole units on their own. Any force with 3 Ratling Guns in at 2K i think are going to be looked at as a little beardy.

Peegore
12-04-2008, 02:23
I say play what you want...the VLAD army list ( Vampire Led Army of Death )is the 'new' SAD anyway. Or so you would be led to believe in 1/4 of the threads here in Warseer at the moment...

Maybe the SAD army list is the perfect antidote for the Undead. 'Spamming phases....THIS is spamming phases. Zap' :)

Adept
12-04-2008, 02:25
Just offer to swap armies and have a rematch!

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 02:32
Maybe the SAD army list is the perfect antidote for the Undead. 'Spamming phases....THIS is spamming phases. Zap' :)

Sigged, especially as the VC magic phase had 14 dice and the same dispel dice -

And I divulge, I did not have cannons. 3 Ratlings, 8 Jezzails (which hurt...well, 4 ghouls...and ONE Black Knight, in the entire game, useless) and the 2 Engineers spamming lightning and the Grey Seer (who warp lightninged twice, and cast Plague or Death Frenzy the rest.) If people see that as SAD still, then I guess there's little to be done - I'm going back to my Narroq list, it's got white rats :p


Just offer to swap armies and have a rematch!

We did - we're doing it a week Thursday - the downside being I'm the most experienced with Skaven (or so I think) so we've got that advantage, I don't think winnning their either will change their opinion, and it's a little tiring knowing there's another year to go...(until a potential update.) Am I hitting my head against a brick wall??

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2008, 02:41
I guess the general consensus is 'have absolutely no Dispelling at ALL and get magic ranked' or be automatically hated...

Not really.
Just dont load up on warplightning so much and dont take loads of shooting troops...just take loads of troops.

3 warlock engineers gives you 5 dispel dice.
A grey seer on his own is generating 4 dispel dice.
3 warp lightnings per turn...or 1?
It goes a very long way to have only a single warplightning thrown at you each turn rather than 3 of them(4 if you count the "manditory" storm daemon)

If you really must take a whole bunch of warlock engineer's then maybe you dont need to give them all the upgrades?
Just take warp blades and nothing else on them(perhaps a pistol as well), there you go...thats the lowest power level warplightning spell each turn now.
Rather than 3 of the 2d6 damage ones each turn, plus an extra d6 damage one.

Assasins are worth taking, as are plague priests.
Skaven can function just fine without several warlock engineers, and scroll caddies are not manditory.
3 warlock engineer's only gives you 5 dispel dice anyway....that's not loads and wont stop a great deal.

TheDarkDuke
12-04-2008, 03:31
What was the points total for starters? What was a brief list of your opposition?

My Skaven list at 2000 points has never been complained about and contains:

Grey Seer
2x Engineer
Assassin

1 Unit of Slaves
2 Units of Clanrats with 2x Ratling Guns
1 Unit of Stormvermin with Warpfire Thrower
1 Unit of Night Runners

2 Units of Plague Monks
2 Units of Gutter Runners Tunnel Teams

Unit of Censor Bearers
1 Warp Cannon

Brings me solid magic, enough combat troops and just enough shooting to make the combats more on par. However if I took any less magic/range then this my Skaven would never have a chance against my Ogres or HE. I have yet to be able to beat Lizardmen with Skaven.

Tarliyn
12-04-2008, 08:11
so skaven can't have a magic heavy army without being cheesy....

thats rubish

note: I don't play skaven nor really have any desire too, but my friend plays a magic heavy skaven list and it is more than beatable if you careful...

I have beat it with Empire, Lizards, and even ogres at 2k

I think people are too quick to yell ahh sad list when they loose to a skaven army that has some sort of presence in both the shooting and magic phase

Ikarius
12-04-2008, 08:14
Seeing as I just started up Skaven, and there's a thread here already, I got a question then.

1 Engineer, 2 Ratling guns, 3 Jezzails, 1 Warp Lightning Cannon would NOT be SAD at 1-2k would it?

Dux Ducis
12-04-2008, 08:22
I'd most certainly say no.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-04-2008, 08:23
Just offer to swap armies and have a rematch!

Army A vs. Army B. Army A wins. Army A offers an army swap and rematch.

Two possibilities:

Player of Army A who is now playing Army B wins. Army B player who is now playing Army A says that Player of Army A who is now playing Army B knows the weaknesses of his own army too well, and that he himself knows little of Army A. While the latter is still his own damn fault, you can bet that Player B will bring it up.

Or, conversely, Player of Army B could win with Army A, and thus Army A is obviously :rolleyes: deemed unstoppable.

I dunno if this is really a good situation. :p

Urgat
12-04-2008, 09:09
So, that was 2000 points? Per player, or per side? To be honest, it doesn't seem so much to me anyway.

SuperBeast
12-04-2008, 10:59
I think the main problem with the Skaven is that for players who can't afford the number of models a 'combat horde' requires, the SAD is the cheapest way of doing it.

The Skaven book, as it is, is by far and away one of the easiest books to break, if not the easiest.
I don't blame Skaven players for this.
When you have the most destructive shooting available to any army in your list just begging to be taken, why wouldn't you?
When you have assured destructo-mages available to you, why wouldn't you take them?
"SAD" isn't a 'bent' list. It's the most obvious all-comers list you can take for Skaven.
Let's hope that when the book gets re-done, it isn't handled by an Italian tournament veteran who plays skaven... oh, wait...

Darkseer
12-04-2008, 11:03
As a new player to Fantasy I've already seen A LOT of ridiculously shooty armies.

The Dark Elf army of repeater crossbow insanity is a prime example.

Makes me wonder if these people should just go and play 40K?

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 11:55
It was 2000 points a side, and will be again - you're Right though Dominatus, I don't think it's a way to solve the opinions of our two opponents but, if it makes them slightly happier.

And Darkseer, I do play 40k ;)

Gorog Irongut
12-04-2008, 12:51
Shamfrit, I fully support your choice to play whatever you want. There is a saying, "Adapt or die." SAD is in no way unbeatable. Heck my dwarfs have never lost to it. A general who doesn't have a plan for facing a shooty army of death should fully expect to have his army thrashed.

So the next time someone throws the "cheesy" comment your way. Reply by saying, "Adapt or die." It's nicer than saying, "Learn how to play your army."

SuperBeast
12-04-2008, 13:59
Reply by saying, "Adapt or die." It's nicer than saying, "Learn how to play your army."
Or to sound cultured, use the latin in my sig... :)

Urgat
12-04-2008, 14:40
Yeah but you know what they say about culture, it's like jam, the less you have, the more you spread it :p (sorry, I just had to say it :p)

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 14:56
Shamfrit, I fully support your choice to play whatever you want. There is a saying, "Adapt or die." SAD is in no way unbeatable. Heck my dwarfs have never lost to it. A general who doesn't have a plan for facing a shooty army of death should fully expect to have his army thrashed.

So the next time someone throws the "cheesy" comment your way. Reply by saying, "Adapt or die." It's nicer than saying, "Learn how to play your army."

Thanks guys, I'll give that a go - I don't like being made to feel uber cheesy when it's only partially cheesy, every time this comes up Rat Ogres, Assassins and Stormvermin get banded around, to which I have to try and respond not sounding hopeless since those units are simply not effective against Undead.

Adapt or die...

Fitting, as it's a very Skaven way of thinking :skull:

Thanks again.

SuperBeast
12-04-2008, 15:06
Yeah but you know what they say about culture, it's like jam, the less you have, the more you spread it :p (sorry, I just had to say it :p)
Damn you... ;)

scarletsquig
12-04-2008, 15:26
Honestly, your army doesn't seem all that bad to me.

It could be a lot worse... as it stands I think I'd have a chance against it with my balanced empire list. (5 infantry units, 2 knights, 2 pistoliers, 2 cannons, 2 helblasters, 0 handgunners/crossbowmen)

"Calling cheese" is very subjective. Try playing empire, you'll get whined at for taking any rare choices that aren't flagellants.

2 Helblasters = cheese
2 Helstorms = cheese (although not as much cheese as the helblasters, despite the fact that they're better)
2 steam tanks = "I'm not playing you" (this one is fair ;) )
1 Helblaster, 1 Helstorm = not cheese.

The criteria is often based on perception rather than reality. A player who is used to simply playing by trundling all his units forwards until they hit somethingwill have a lot more problems against gunlines than someone who can adapt his deployment/ maneuvering to face and win against a gunline (refused flank/ screening units etc.).

Lorcryst
12-04-2008, 16:20
I already wrote this on these boards, but it's worth writing it again : cheese is in the eyes of the beholder.

I've been soundly thrashed while using my Night Goblins versus a mate's Skavens (Grey Seer, Bell, huuuuge block of 80+ clanrats to push it, several small units of Night Runners, a couple of Warlocks, but not a single Jezzail, Ratling Gun of Warp Lightning Cannon is sight), and at first I thought "I'll never beat that cheesey army of doom", but then, I sat and thought, and came to the conclusion that I could have beat that army, if I hadn't played right in the hands of my opponent ... getting my battle line just where he wanted it wasn't a smart move on my part.


I doubt that swapping sides will allow your opponents to see the light, if they don't want to think about what mistakes they have done, and what they should have done instead, nothing will stop them from whining ...

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 17:38
List Re-Built From Memory:

Greyseer Shamfrit.
Twisted Crown Of The Horned Rat
1X Dispel Scrolls
Power Stone

Engineer, Full Upgrades, No Pistol.
Storm Daemon.
Dispel Scroll.

Engineer, Full Upgrades, No Pistol.
Dispel Scroll.
Warpstone Amulet.

Chieftain.
Shield, Heavy Armour.
Languisher Sword.
Bands Of Power.

---

20 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
20 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
30 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
20 Slaves.
20 Slaves.
20 Slaves.
7 Night Runners, Slings.
7 Night Runners, Slings.

---

8 Jezzails.

---

5 Light Cavalry.
5 Heavy Cavalry. (Dogs of War.)

theunwantedbeing
12-04-2008, 17:56
It's probably a better idea to remove the light cav and heavy cav and get more rats.
You'll save yourself 200points to spend on more rats, which gives you a fair amount of them.
It's a third unit of night runners easily enough.

Or even plaguemonks or rat ogres.
Or giant rats, they are rather useful are giant rats and make good flanking troops.

Vermin Swarm
12-04-2008, 18:30
List Re-Built From Memory:

Greyseer Shamfrit.
Twisted Crown Of The Horned Rat
1X Dispel Scrolls
Power Stone

Engineer, Full Upgrades, No Pistol.
Storm Daemon.
Dispel Scroll.

Engineer, Full Upgrades, No Pistol.
Dispel Scroll.
Warpstone Amulet.

Chieftain.
Shield, Heavy Armour.
Languisher Sword.
Bands Of Power.

---

20 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
20 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
30 Clanrats, Hand Weapons/Shields, Standard/Musician, Ratling Gun.
20 Slaves.
20 Slaves.
20 Slaves.
7 Night Runners, Slings.
7 Night Runners, Slings.

---

8 Jezzails.

---

5 Light Cavalry.
5 Heavy Cavalry. (Dogs of War.)

Hmm, thats not too cheesy (but maybe i'm being a little biased :p). I mean I don't see an abundance of Warp Lightning Cannons or Jezzails, or an Eye of the Horned Rat. I think the only questionable choice is the second Engineer with the Storm Daemon. Maybe switching him for an Assassin or Poison Wind Globardiers would work?

decker_cky
12-04-2008, 18:42
Anyone considering 2 cannons, 3 ratling guns and 8 jezzails the making of SAD are full of it.

-8 Jezzails is a little light for a completely balanced 2k skaven army. They're needed as the only real anti-armour in the army, so 8 is around the bare minimum you can afford to take. When you start to get up and around 20 jezzails is when you should consider raising your eyebrow to these.
-3 ratling guns used to be the startings of the power level considered SAD, but in 7th, they're generally easy pickings for the opponent. Minmaxing skaven in 7th includes no ratling guns, instead putting more points into jezzails and magic.
-Whether you took 2 cannons or not doesn't matter. Warp lightning cannons are more a fun unit than a cheesy unit. Taking 2 is a lot of points that will never be as useful as 2 empire cannons.

So really, the magic is the only part of his army that's in the range of SAD, which is nothing to complain about. Far less to complain about than 14 power dice vamps.

Shamfrit, you should probably drop one of the ratling guns for more clanrats to increase your armies effectiveness btw.

AmBlam
12-04-2008, 19:06
When I could've had 16 power dice, 20 jezzails, 5 ratlings and two cannons and 3 engineers instead of 2 and a chieftain, it's hardly, hardly 'SAD' at all.

This is the real problem. You are comparing your list with the most "SAD" possibility of your list instead of opponents' list.

To give an example:

If an Eldar player in 40k could take 22 holo-falcons but only takes 9 he is still power gaming. Just because they are not power gaming compared to what they could have done does not mean they are not power gaming in general.

txamil
12-04-2008, 19:52
There are two different issues here that are being confused. First, I do think gunlines require as much Strategy and tactics as other types of armies (On a side note, my favourite is people complaining that dwarfs shooting isn't tactical or strategic; that they should instead play cc troops which with their move are going to just stand there while the opponent rams what he wants into the block of troops- That isn't tactical or strategic, just convenient for your opponent).

Second, Skaven magic (mostly this) and shooting are not costed correctly/Over-powered.

So to the OP, they aren't insulting your tactical/strategical acumen. They are suggesting it's easier to demonstrate tactical/strategical acumen with Over-powered crap.

It's interesting to see what would get rid of the SAD stereotype. What if the list had no grey seers? Or no jezzails? Or no Ratling guns?

Which one would you get rid of to make the army acceptable?

I vote the magic. The list would be ok without the magic.

Shamfrit
12-04-2008, 20:00
I vote the magic. The list would be ok without the magic.

Leaving me 2 dispel dice against a 14 dice Vampire list that can raise 4 times faster than I can shoot, even with full SAD?

I'm just going to switch to using my Orcs and take 8 chariots, since it's not considered cheesy yet - I really, really don't know where to go with this - If I kept the list as is, switched the cavalry for another unit of clanrats etc, I still think the only reason they complained was because I dominated the shooting phase to ridicilous degree (which is entirely down to the Army Match-up, against any other army, I'd have had to have gone full magic to pull off a win, Ratlings dying to a Wood Elf Bow.)

Funny thing is, he finally managed to charge a Ratling without stand and shoot with a Corpse Cart, which passed it's Fear Test, and, much to my insane delight, KILLED a 2 wound corpse cart!!!

Will definately switch Cav for Clanrats and Warpfire throwers - working on your advice to try and get 'balance' in a very unbalanced (at present.) list.

:cool:

That Guy
12-04-2008, 20:02
I disagree with AmBlam.

The shooting is the strength of the Skaven army. To build a remotely competitive list, you always have to play to your strengths. Wouldn't you consider a Dwarf player with no shooting kind of daft? Wouldn't you consider a Wood Elf player without fast calvary an absurdity? What I see in Shamfrit's list is playing to his army's strength while not totally maxing out on it to an absurd degree. The big blocks of Clanrats and Slaves do a lot to make me feel good.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with the cavalry than the shooting. I see the Skaven list as intentionally balanced in having no cavalry, so to take cavalry rubs me the wrong way (much like cannons in a High Elf army, etc.)

On the whole though, your list is not SAD, just effective.

Davien
13-04-2008, 00:37
It seems as though you are going up against skaven haters the majority of the time.

My advice is: Stick to your army that you used in the opening post!!! You see this stuff all the time in RPGs, Computer MMOs, etc, and these could be players who have lost to a skaven magic/gunline before and never figured out how to beat them. The warhammer armies have a way that they excel at, but that doesn't mean that every army of that type has to be like that. Stick with what you have and mock anyone who disagrees!

Unless you don't mind being a sheep at following the stereotype standards...

Edit: I agree with the people who said ditc the cavalry though, that is going a bit too far... try and keep the balance in your list without falling for the stereotype.

theunwantedbeing
13-04-2008, 00:54
You dont need to take lots of shooting to beat an opponent.
Or lots of magic.
Currently if you take 3 warlock engineers and 10 jezzails...you'll make a mess of the VC player so long as he doesnt make it into combat with you.

When he does make it into combat you really want plaguemonks and plague censor bearer's to be fighting as these guys tends to make a mess of prettymuch anything.
Only the vampire lords and such will be problematic for you but you can generally whittle down their unit and then start shooting at the combat...eventually you'll hit and kill the vamp if combat res doesnt get him first.

You dont even need the jezzails...they're just for picking off things like knights but your magic can do that just fine. Dropping either a couple of warlocks or the jezzails works perfectly fine....you'll free up some points for things like rat ogres and giant rat teams which are large enough to break the ranks of the enemy.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-04-2008, 02:39
Seems overkillish to me. I heard that a lot of people dont like skaven because they can have really brutal lists. That is a whack load of power dice and enough shooting to ruin most things. Elite armies would be mowed down before having a chance to cut u into rodent mincemeat.

Von Wibble
13-04-2008, 09:59
I don't play Skaven at all but think the problem lies with the army book. To me there are a few issues that lead to skaven armies either being very expensive and time consmuing to make, or being what others would term SAD. As a result I think any skaven player is quite welcome to use such tactics.

Things I think would need changing

1) Weapon teams attached to clanrats. I thought these things were clan skyre? Therefore warlord clan units (which should be in the majority) don't use them. Solution - units with weapon teams are not mainstream. However, weapon teams may not be targetted by shooting/magic unless they are the closest target.

2) Only Skyre seem to get any fun - they might as well have called it Warhammer Armies - Skyre. Solution - Plague monks to core, plague lord added to list. Assassin considerably boosted - basically, all option areas get something from each clan to help them.

3) Put the doomwheel back in :D. But not the vermin lord.

4) Minimum unit size of clanrats and slaves is 30 not 20. 20 is less than one of my high elf spearman units!

5) Lets face it - the only reason Storm Daemon is used so much is that there isn't a great alternative. Put the Daemon up a bit in cost and add some other nice gubbinz (personally I think skaven have amongst the weakest sets of magic items - a few really nice ones but mostly junk). Alternatively give them a weaker version of it in the shooting phase.

Not a wishlist- just my thoughts on what could help solve the 'skyre problem'.

W0lf
13-04-2008, 10:43
People dvising you not to play sad are ridiculous.

The 'only 1 warlock engineer' is stupid.

Why bother with one? he wont ever cast anything anyway. lay SAD, its how skaven are played competitivly. Ive played SAD 100s of times and i dont whine because my opponents list is good.

Dot weaken your list to suit your opponents. Let them strengthen theirs.

AmBlam
14-04-2008, 08:51
I disagree with AmBlam.

The shooting is the strength of the Skaven army. To build a remotely competitive list, you always have to play to your strengths. Wouldn't you consider a Dwarf player with no shooting kind of daft? Wouldn't you consider a Wood Elf player without fast calvary an absurdity? What I see in Shamfrit's list is playing to his army's strength while not totally maxing out on it to an absurd degree. The big blocks of Clanrats and Slaves do a lot to make me feel good.

Honestly, I have more of a problem with the cavalry than the shooting. I see the Skaven list as intentionally balanced in having no cavalry, so to take cavalry rubs me the wrong way (much like cannons in a High Elf army, etc.)

On the whole though, your list is not SAD, just effective.

I'm not saying his list is SAD.

I'm saying his POV is leading to faulty conclusions.

Tiamat
14-04-2008, 10:09
I'm a Skaven player myself, and truth be told I've always tried to avoid relying on Skaven Warmachines, too unpredictable for their own good.

To my mind, SAD is relying exclusively on Clan Skryre to do your work, which is what you did. Thankfully, SAD is not a all consuming as it once was. The 7th ed rules on targetting mean that cleaning out weapons teams is very simple, meaning they have to be placed very carefully or they will be exposed to grotesque amounts of hostility. I managed this against one recent opponent, my first turn, all three of this weapon teams fried with warp lightning, (two warlock engineers, one with Storm Daemon).

I like to take a bit of everything where possible. Rat Ogres are a great hammer unit (when they hit) with their 3 S5 attacks each, Plague Monks are a must have against lighter infantry. Throw them at goblin blocks and watch those three attacks a piece (1 basic, 1 frenzy, 1 xtra hand weapon) do their thing. And Plague Censers, I've had them see off pretty much everything in their time, vast quantities of Wood Elves, Knights, Rat Ogres (they charged me!) and once just six managed to get a combat resolution of 11 against Golblins!

And the final benefit with not going SAD, is that you don't get verbally slapped by your opponents all the time. Don't abandon Skryre, but don't exclude the other clans is my thought, the Skaven army list doesn't have a single useless unit in it. And before anybody says anything, Rat Swarms can be used to cover the rear of your army against big flying monsters that can't generate massive combat resolutions on their own and so can't disolve them quickly.