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View Full Version : Wysiwyg.........wtf Gw?



Ulrig
12-04-2008, 01:30
/rant on

If GW is halfway serious about this rule, they should give you all the options for every model you buy in the box sets.

A couple of examples

Devestator Squads should come with enough weapons in every box where you can create whatever you want out of the box.

Genestealers should come with enough heads to make all of them whatever you want.

For as much as they charge it should be a lot better.

/rant off

DasAtomkind
12-04-2008, 01:38
Devastator Squad boxes are fitted just okay, because they were obviously made with Combat Squads already in mind. And as far as I can see in my gaming club, most configs at DA/BA (and soon probably regular SM) are two devastator combat squads with 2 specific heavy guns each (e.g. two missile launchers and two heavybolters) ...

CaptainSenioris
12-04-2008, 01:39
They're certainly a lot better than they used to be. With the example of the plastic devastators, the old ones came with one of each weapon, and originally lacked the multi-melta, now you even get a few spare heavies for your tactical squads. The tactical squads used to only come with a flamer now they have all three assault weapons, again leaving a few spares.

As you build up a collection it becomes a lot less of a problem. When you put it in perspective with the past they are definetly trying harder. :D

Bloodcookie
12-04-2008, 01:41
I'd actually like to take this opportunity to ask a question about the WYSIWYG rule. For someone, like me, who is less than confident in his modeling/conversion skills, would it be acceptable to use a solid metal HQ model depicted with a given weapon (a witch hunter w/ inferno pistol, for example) to represent that same unit with a different weapon that is still a standard choice for that unit (like a storm bolter)?

Adiem
12-04-2008, 01:43
I can understand the desire to rant, the one that really gets me is the tyranid rending claws situation - 1 set per three warriors, and none at all with raveners! It's a total pain. But then I guess GW have got to balance cost against customer service - do they really need to supply every possible combination? Would it be worth it for them? I don't know off the top of my head, but I guess probably not (since they don't), and I can forgive them for it..

Chem-Dog
12-04-2008, 01:47
I agree in general with the sentiment.

Personally, I think the Devestator box is an awesome buy, 7 heavy weapons IIRC with what would be the majority of players' preferences catered for, especially when they changes brought about in the DA and BA codex seem almost guaranteed to follow through to the Generic Marine Codex, A combat squad split Devestator squads with a dual heavy weapon payload can cover 2 tasks very effectively.

But things like Genestealer heads suck when you get enough upgrades for 1 or 2 models per box. Only hope is that either GW or FW bring out a "bitz" pack with multiples.
But I do feel they are getting better at these kinds of things, the last Marine Assault squad box I bought had parts for both Jump pack and non Jump pack models.

Personal gripe on a similar vein, how come the only model in the Vostroyan range that has a Vox is only available in the £15 Command squad boxed set?!

AmKhaibitu
12-04-2008, 02:35
I'd actually like to take this opportunity to ask a question about the WYSIWYG rule. For someone, like me, who is less than confident in his modeling/conversion skills, would it be acceptable to use a solid metal HQ model depicted with a given weapon (a witch hunter w/ inferno pistol, for example) to represent that same unit with a different weapon that is still a standard choice for that unit (like a storm bolter)?

Weapons fall into the category I like to call "sharp pointy things that can poke your eye out" or rather the most important things.
Basically weapons can make a huge impact and someone looking at it will automatically assume it's what it is, despite being told it's something else entirely.

As long as the weapons are correct, most other stuff has some leeway.

But it's worth practicing and getting help with conversion work, you'll get better, but it takes effort. It does pay off though in the end.

Mad King George
12-04-2008, 02:40
i dont mind wysiwyg but they need to give some extra stuff in the boxes anyway just for appearances

Adept
12-04-2008, 02:46
I agree with the OP.

GW charges an absolutely exorbitant amount for their toy soldiers, and I would find the price a much easier pill to swallow if they supplied all the contents you could possibly want in each box.

Yes, that might mean you get 20 or so heavy weapons in each devastator box. That would be a good incentive to buy it!

AmKhaibitu
12-04-2008, 02:49
As long as somewhere in one of the boxes is the weapon or other piece you seek, it's good.

Twin power-armoured Lightning Claws are a good example.
People want to use them, but the options are simply not worth it.
Sure you could cut down some terminator armoured claws, but the scale is odd and such.
Getting them singly for one hand, also possible.
Getting them as a pair requires essentially buying another entire model just for the weapons, and ordering them by themselves isn't happening currently.

So I'm hoping with the rumoured new space marine sprue that not only do we get different marks of armour, but that we get various weapons covered in the rules, but not so well supported outside of metal parts.
The commander was a start.

Lord Cook
12-04-2008, 02:50
On a side note, the IG Cadian heavy weapons box set comes with the parts for all 5 heavy weapon options, in plastic. One can only hope similar products are planned for the future.

TheDarkDuke
12-04-2008, 02:55
While some things are ok and workable, like Nids, I see no issue with all of Nids other then wings/stealer heads... Everything else is there and fully interchangeable. People are complaining about of late the lack of Ork tank models... well I look at the whole "looted" aspect and if you just look at the options its pretty clear you are to base them off already available models EG: Looted Tank as a transport = Rhino or Chimera, Looted Tank with Big Cannon = Vindicator or Leman Russ. Battlewagon as a Landraider or Baneblade.

My brother complained about Dev teams, as he was wanting to do a Salamanders army and want only Multi-meltas... I tried to tell him to look on eBay... it seems about 5$ will get you the weapon you need, but hey hes going DA now anyways lol.

senorcardgage
12-04-2008, 03:40
The SM devastator box is actually quite good regarding the amount of stuff they give you. Like someone else said, you used to get ONE of each weapon, which really sucked. What I personally dislike, is when you don't have enough parts to even make enough of the BASIC troopers.

For example, the chaos terminators where you can only take at maximum 3 power weapons and 3 combi bolters...

PseudoK
12-04-2008, 04:04
GW is getting a lot better about having available options. The miniature lines have progressed, but the game did start with a lot of expectation of conversion. Hell, for quite a while, the Land Raider wasn't even sold -- despite it having stats.

I completely understand wanting full options, but expecting GW to put twenty guns in one box _and_ keep the price reasonable is a bit much.

starlight
12-04-2008, 04:07
No it's not. :p

The price of plastic is negligible, the designs are done, the sprues are made by computers. Cramming each new sprue with options would be an incredibly cheap and easy way of adding significant value for minimal cost. :)

bdo
12-04-2008, 04:25
i have to add a reminder of catachans to the rant list... how come they onle come with flamers? nothing else! okay, i can understand that there should be more flamers in a catachan box than in other boxes... but make it the only special weapon is ridiculous. lucky for my mate who plays catachans that i have some spare plasmaguns and meltas..

Remoah
12-04-2008, 04:45
Marines are fairly well off. Not much to complain about there.

most gaming clubs won't care as long as you make it very clear and the opponent is OK with it. I remember seeing a game played with bottlecaps and small boxes- the players wanted to test thier lists out before they committed to buy them.

But as for tourneys, you'll need WYSIWYG

Seth the Dark
12-04-2008, 06:06
I agree with the original poster: if we are required to have WYSIWYG then all of the options should be included because not everyone is great at converting.

Adept
12-04-2008, 07:35
I completely understand wanting full options, but expecting GW to put twenty guns in one box _and_ keep the price reasonable is a bit much.

The price is already unreasonable. Giving us all the options we could want (like two Assault cannons in the SM Terminators box) would be a step towards making it more reasonable.

I don't mind paying GW prices, but when I pay a premium I expect a premium product.

laucian_meliamne
12-04-2008, 07:40
The very least they could do if they're going to be serious about WYSIWYG rules and trying to encourage conversions for display and centrepiece items is to have a decent range of bitz available to be ordered...

Wait! They used to do that. You could order the extra parts you needed to make your squads legal *and* make those cool competition entries. Too bad they "solved" that problem by getting rid of bits.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-04-2008, 07:52
If they'd help out and support bits companies like the Warstore and so on, instead of hampering those companies who are attempting to do jobs that GW has no excuse not to be doing themselves, this wouldn't be an issue.

DasAtomkind
12-04-2008, 08:23
When I think it through, I've actually never seen a completely wysiwyg army (okay, maybe some orks or tyranids were close by) .... take new marines for example - if you'd like to be completely wysiwyg, then EACH single marine would have to have both typues of grenades and a pistol holster glued to his waist (and you just don't have that many grenades and holsters in a boxed set. ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-04-2008, 08:26
My army is completely WYSIWYG, and I play Chaos. How's that? :p

Granted, this was achieved through judicious use of the Warstore before GW's persecution... ;)

Engekomkommer
12-04-2008, 09:00
No it's not. :p

The price of plastic is negligible, the designs are done, the sprues are made by computers. Cramming each new sprue with options would be an incredibly cheap and easy way of adding significant value for minimal cost. :)

The price of oil, and therefore plastic, is going up all the time. Plus the cost of moulds is VERY expensive.

Bassik
12-04-2008, 09:12
Since they used that new technollogy for plastic models, whatever its called, they do cram every single sprue full of stuff, even pointless scenic stuff that's just for fun.
For example, the new Skaven plastic sprues (Plaguemonks and Moulder Beasts) has tons of small rats to add to the base, etc.

I like stuff like this.

tsutek
12-04-2008, 09:28
I'm wondering about the wysiwyg as well - I understand that meltabombs should be on the model if you have 'em on the list, but frag/krak grenades? Ain't no way I'm gonna even be able to fit every brother with both types, depending on the pose/wpn opts..

Also, fitting 20+ nids with 2 adrenal glands, toxin sacs and extended carapace? How do you even fit the extended carapace? (Still no idea to this day how this is supposed to be done with the pieces that come with the box - used 'em for nec gang shoulder pads for now)

Nobody diss the devastators box!! IMO it's quite a good box for value, there's a good amount of extra bling on the sprues (servo skulls, couldn't live without 'em!). I can easily make 8 heavies from the parts, and there's even pair of kneeling mk6 legs in there..

About GW dropping the bitz range - It'll be back eventually.. perhaps even sooner than you think. It's just undergoing some major overhaul. In the meantime, I'll happily keep on going through various bitz retailers for those extra weapons etc.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-04-2008, 09:44
As far as fitting all the stuff on for WYSIWYG, I ordered stuff off the Warstore (am I plugging them blatantly enough? ;)) and loaded the Marines down. Knives and holsters on the sides of their greaves, grenades and pouches on their shoulder pads and belts, more weapons, more gear more gear more gear... you know, like a real elite military strikeforce consisting of superhumans would go into battle. And everyone has- either firmly latched to its position or on their person- a goddamn helmet! Of all the silly goofy things to run screaming at your enemy waving a chainsword without... a helmet? Are you kidding me?!?!

Sorry, just got out of the 'nerd-rage' thread and I'm in a ranty mood. :evilgrin: I shall force opiates through every orifice I possess to attempt to stop the venom.*

* A lie, I don't do drugs.

Müller
12-04-2008, 09:49
Guys, there's a reason as to why the MAIL ORDER scervice exists!
it's not expensive and not THAT much of a hassle

tortoise
12-04-2008, 10:04
What mail order are you talking about? GW mail order who haven't allowed you to order individual components for a number of months now?

What hasn't come up in this thread (a puzzling ommision indeed) is the fact that you used to be able to buy individual metal models to supplement the parts that came in a plastic box. So for example, the previous hybrid devastators had a poor selection of weapons but individual models were available in blisters. The same for special weapons etc. It therefore mattered far less what weapon options cane in the boxed set.

Of course, mail order used to supply parts rather than their idiotic bitz packs which made ordering extra weapons very easy.

Imperialis_Dominatus
12-04-2008, 10:10
If GW's not going to do it right themselves, they should leave bits and such to independent types, as I've said before. No use harassing them as GW makes its money off it and they aren't willing to put in the time to do it themselves (lazy sods), so why bother?

I mean, we know GW is a company, and thus they want their money. If they get that, why do they complain?

Corax
12-04-2008, 10:57
Personally, I like the fact that they don't make certain pieces. Part of the skill of modelling is being able to convert and create your own pieces, and I like seeing all the different things that people come up with!

If you want something that isn't commonly available, make it. And if you don't know how, learn! If people spent more time modeling and less time whining, WYSIWYG wouldn't be an issue!

Mad King George
12-04-2008, 11:23
i'm pretty sure you can use recycled plastic for our GWS models not like were gong to have them on display unpainted who cares if the plastic is patchy if its cheap ill buy more if its cheap you make more profit

Ollieb
12-04-2008, 11:31
They are getting better with each redo. The new Ork Boyz sprues have more giblets and gubbins than you need. All the weapons options for a Mob are on the sprues as well.

LordFulgrim
12-04-2008, 11:39
My EC are finally getting to a point where they are almost WYSIWYG but it has been a royal pain in the backside. And note that I said 'almost' because a complete WYSIWYG army is IMO as good as impossible model-wise. If I'd have to glue every bit on my marines they'd look like a swiss pocket knife.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
12-04-2008, 11:39
Plastic Dual Lighting Claws for Power Armour Marines = 0

it is just .... :/

AmBlam
12-04-2008, 11:49
Yeah Chaos havocs are a joke as well.

SonofUltramar
12-04-2008, 11:54
This thread makes me laugh, when I was a red (blue) shirt several years ago I had a parent who came back with a tupperware box filled with the bits left over from an Ogre Kingdoms battalion and the mum in question and kid thought it was outragous how much was left over?

So in our new green thinking world i think we'll all have to accept that compromises have to be made. If a boxset contained all the options for a unit it would generally mean that either the boxset would need an extra sprue (cost goes up) or less models per box set therefore we need to buy more boxes (cost effectively goes up)?

For me i'm fine if a few models in a squad have all the options while others have some. Things like grenades could be rationalised by some squad members having used them all or giving them to an Assault unit etc. It's a wargame be creative

Son of Makuta
12-04-2008, 12:03
I find my armies - Nids and Eldar - are ok on this front. Eldar don't have all that many weapon options, and all the box sets come with plenty of gun sprues. Nids are fine because non-Nid players don't give a **** about biomorph representations and I don't either... it's T6 or T7, either way it looks the part and it's not hard to remember. 'Bonded Exoskeleton' means very little to your average Joe Marine anyway; I don't think I've ever quoted biomorphs at an opponent, unless it's another Nid player, like I said. I just tell them 'yeah, these have WS5 and S4, they're gonna eat your face'. :D

The point of that is, Tyranids don't really care that much about biomorphs. They're easy to convert if you're low on a particular weapon, and you get plenty of adrenal glands stocked up after buying enough box sets.

PS. tsutek: Extended carapace plates can fit on top of existing back carapace (for gaunts, say) or above limbs (for Warriors). Or don't bother. :)

Freakiq
12-04-2008, 12:24
Would you rather that they took out two terminators from the Chaos Terminator box or raised the price by 15% in order to fit more options on the sprue?

electriceye83
12-04-2008, 12:25
The wysiwyg thing isnt such a big deal for me in the plastic ranges, because, in time, if and when the bits range comes back online, its fixable, and there are allowances for things like grenades.

It specifically mentions in most codex's that grenades are exempt from the wysiwyg thing.

A second funny note is, given the few pouches you get in a marine box, I can only ever see on just about every marine ever made, ONE magazine for his bolter, and on a rapid fire weapon, thats bound to last about 10 seconds.

Gotta love the theory behind that.

But a question and pet hate I have, is with the new dark angels company masters.

Ie, the ones who both have their left arms hidden.

How is that covered in the rules, is it against the rules for me to get the one with a plasma gun a power fist on the other hand, and just say its hidden.

And then, if I put a shoulder cape on any another marine, can I just say hes hiding something under there?

Yeah, under those capes, they have bikes/jump packs/heavy weapons/daemonettes etc?

Ulrig
12-04-2008, 14:38
Personally, I like the fact that they don't make certain pieces. Part of the skill of modelling is being able to convert and create your own pieces, and I like seeing all the different things that people come up with!

If you want something that isn't commonly available, make it. And if you don't know how, learn! If people spent more time modeling and less time whining, WYSIWYG wouldn't be an issue!

:wtf: How in the world can anybody be glad they don't offer individual pieces? Not everybody has the time, money, and skill to do "modelling" as you put it. My friend and I just got back into 40k right before GW killed the bitz service. He frantically ordered lightning claws for everything he would need for his army along with a LOT of other bits for his other types of squads and vehicles. Bitz being offered does not in anyway limit ones imagination, if anything it helps with it.





So in our new green thinking world i think we'll all have to accept that compromises have to be made. If a boxset contained all the options for a unit it would generally mean that either the boxset would need an extra sprue (cost goes up) or less models per box set therefore we need to buy more boxes (cost effectively goes up)?


Yeah oil has gone up etc. I don't think its nearly as directly related to the GW prices as you people think. Think about how much resin is wasted on the spure itself. And as somebody else mentioned, they add extra scenery crap you don't need. For the outrageous prices we already pay, we should get higher quality stuff. Other war games dont cost near as much

Maybe the devestator box was a bad example, how about nid warriors in its place? Does it really matter? We all know that this is a issue across the board.(no pun intended)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-04-2008, 14:41
Ummmm...once again....just for old times sake.

The Bitz service has been re-jigged, NOT killed off. Big big difference. Keep checking back on the website, as they are meant to be releasing more and more packs.

imweasel
12-04-2008, 14:47
The price of oil, and therefore plastic, is going up all the time. Plus the cost of moulds is VERY expensive.

I can make a mold of an existing sprue for less than 50 bucks that would last several thousand castings.

Each casting would cost around 60 cents each.

These are not mass production costs. This is making one mold and making casts from that one mold by one person buying small amounts of product from a local hobby store.

Most of GW's cost is packaging and shipping the product. Even then, their profit margin is quite large bordering on the ridiculous.

imweasel
12-04-2008, 14:49
Would you rather that they took out two terminators from the Chaos Terminator box or raised the price by 15% in order to fit more options on the sprue?

This quote would be relevant if it wasn't totally unnecessary to raise the price by 15%.

Neknoh
12-04-2008, 14:55
On this topic, what would people think of using a gun that LOOKS different than the other guns in the squad as a "Counts as" plasma? I.e. the large repeater-guns from the Outriders box as plasma guns in a steampunk guard army. How would that fly in tournaments etc.? Is it WYSIWYG enough?

Bookwrak
12-04-2008, 14:59
It's perfectly fine as 'count-as' so long as it doesn't closely resemble another gun in your army. If you can set two models with different weapons side by side, an oppenent doesn't have an easy time telling which is which, you've got a problem.

For tyranids, genestealer biomorphs are an all or nothing thing. So why isn't acceptable that only a few actually have their acid tongue, or their implant spike, or whatever sticking out? The fact that all have to have the upgrade means that just a few marker models adequately indicates what the unit is packing.

Besides, having 4x of each type of head (normal, than the 3 variants IIRC) would leave a lot of waste plastic, which would generate its own bitchery. There are a couple people in the recycling thread already griping about amount of plastic wasted in GW sprues.

imweasel
12-04-2008, 15:08
Besides, having 4x of each type of head (normal, than the 3 variants IIRC) would leave a lot of waste plastic, which would generate its own bitchery. There are a couple people in the recycling thread already griping about amount of plastic wasted in GW sprues.

They can go chisel their own out of granite, for all I'm concerned...

Altashheth
12-04-2008, 15:09
As far as I am concerned as long as most of the models in a hoarde unit are correct and I can tell what the unit has then it fits WYSIWYG e.g. About 50% of the stealers are displaying flesh hooks then the squad has flesh hooks.

As for weapon options if its a special weapon or a hvy weapon it really should look like what it is although Orks can get away with a bit of tubing and the nose from a hunter killer to represent a rocket launcher....

Dr. Acula
12-04-2008, 15:27
When playing in friendly matches then I honestly don't mind if someone used a generic cardboard cereal box to represent a Baneblade. I've always thought that their options policy was ridiculous. My biggest gripe (as someone else mentioned earlier) is the fact that in order to get 2 assault cannons in a terminator squad you would have to buy a further £25 worth of terminators when in the majority of games, 5 would be more than a big enough investment.

take19
12-04-2008, 15:31
Terminator squads with only one assault cannon.

Dr. Acula
12-04-2008, 15:38
The other thing I don't understand is why they insist on making GK's only in metal - £15 for 5 models from a troops choice with only one possible special weapon choice in the box, making one model redundant if you want a psycannon.

take19
12-04-2008, 15:52
Ahh I think that was because at the time it was impossible to make a model that detailed in plastic?

Son of Makuta
12-04-2008, 15:59
:wtf: How in the world can anybody be glad they don't offer individual pieces? Not everybody has the time, money, and skill to do "modelling" as you put it.

I do. Well not the time or money, or probably not the skill. :chrome: I just model anyway. :D And I still wish they offered more options on some sprues, or rather, sold bits... 'Cos it's the extreme modellers that're going to NEED that daemon prince arm, not your average Joe just trying to make a WYSIWYG four-bolter dev squad for once.

Not to put down the average Joes out there. I feel your pain. Luckily, I don't actually use rending claw Warriors myself. :rolleyes:

Dr. Acula
12-04-2008, 16:04
Ahh I think that was because at the time it was impossible to make a model that detailed in plastic?

I always assumed it was just to make more money, but thats because I'm rather cynical. Besides, I don't think the Grey Knight models are that much more detailed than the new terminators (I've seriously considered getting some brass rod and adapting a set of normal ones to make more GKs) or tactical squads - my only problem for the tactical squads would be the storm bolters, although I guess I could butcher a couple of bolt pistols like I did for one of my veteran sergeants.

NotElite
12-04-2008, 16:05
Lets add to the silliness. Chaos Possessed can't ever really be WYSIWYG unless you have a squad for every possible dice roll.

lord_blackfang
12-04-2008, 16:31
So each Tactical Squad box should come with every single wargear item in the Codex for the Sergeant, all different heavy weapons, and why not throw in a Rhino, Razorback and Drop Pod, too?

ankara halla
12-04-2008, 16:32
I always assumed it was just to make more money, but thats because I'm rather cynical. Besides, I don't think the Grey Knight models are that much more detailed than the new terminators (I've seriously considered getting some brass rod and adapting a set of normal ones to make more GKs) or tactical squads - my only problem for the tactical squads would be the storm bolters, although I guess I could butcher a couple of bolt pistols like I did for one of my veteran sergeants.

It's the level of detail (it's just not possible to do in plastic) BUT it's also the cost of a plastic mould. It's much, much, much cheaper to cast models in metal than it is in plastic. It only makes sense to make moulds for plastic kits if you are sure you are going to sell a lot of them, then it becomes cheper per unit.

GK's weren´t projected to sell in quantities big enough to warrant the cost of plastic moulds => metal models they are.

Bloodknight
12-04-2008, 16:43
It has to be the level of detail. I compared yesterday the "new" plastic Chaos terminators and old metal Chaos terminators and the new guys are less detailed and what is there is less crisp. They're bigger, but IMO not better at all.

Dr. Acula
12-04-2008, 16:44
Thankfully they are expensive pointswise so I can have a nice small army. I might have a serious look at converting some regular SM's (I've got hundreds of seals etc left over from various squad boxes) and I'm sure I could drill a Nemesis force weapon into a hand if completely necessary.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-04-2008, 16:47
Most of GW's cost is packaging and shipping the product. Even then, their profit margin is quite large bordering on the ridiculous.

ORLY?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/financialhighlights.aspx

My Maths is a little rusty, I freely admit, but that looks awfully like a 1% margin of profit to me.

The money grubbing sods!

TheMav80
12-04-2008, 16:49
I'd be happy if some of my upgrades even existed.

Targeting Arrays, Flechette Dischargers, Disruption Pod, Stimulant Injector, Vectored RetroThrusters...

SonofUltramar
12-04-2008, 16:53
Yeah oil has gone up etc. I don't think its nearly as directly related to the GW prices as you people think. Think about how much resin is wasted on the spure itself. And as somebody else mentioned, they add extra scenery crap you don't need. For the outrageous prices we already pay, we should get higher quality stuff. Other war games dont cost near as much

My point was GW charges by the sprue so if they add a sprue they will add £4 or £5 to the cost of a box or they will give us more stuff but less models, the new Empire Soldiers models being a prime example where they got more details but you now need 2 £12 boxes opposed to one £18 per unit?

I think if GW was able to set up a recycling system where sprues could be returned it would reduce costs quiet considerably if they could get a good deal and some sort of tax break for doing it. But hey never going to happen because while GW is one of the greenest companies in central UK they still have a long way to go.

As for cost, can we try and leave that alone as people will never agree. Besides it gets threads closed real quick.

TheDarkDuke
12-04-2008, 16:56
Thankfully they are expensive pointswise so I can have a nice small army. I might have a serious look at converting some regular SM's (I've got hundreds of seals etc left over from various squad boxes) and I'm sure I could drill a Nemesis force weapon into a hand if completely necessary.

Try using BT upgrade box as well for this, will help out IMO with the knightly feel to them. Also I don't know how many are in the DA vet box but they have at least one stormbolter that works great on power armor marines.

Dr. Acula
12-04-2008, 16:59
There's a BT upgrade box? Sorry, I've been out of the loop for the last couple of years but I've got a long summer away from uni and need something to do. I've probably got a couple of storm bolters from terminator kits as well that haven't been used thanks to assault cannons.

TheDarkDuke
12-04-2008, 17:02
ORLY?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/financialhighlights.aspx

My Maths is a little rusty, I freely admit, but that looks awfully like a 1% margin of profit to me.

The money grubbing sods!

Just wondering, what they would have lost in $ when they released BT thinking about it now...

As for their release they took the normal SM boxes and added BT sprues to them but did not change the price. I went out looking for BT boxes as I started them up months after their release and I could for example get Assault Squad for the same price as BT Assault Squad which contained an additional BT sprue... They did not do it this way with DA simply releasing a DA Vet squad and RW Bike Squad...

However I suppose they make up for this with BT now as you pay the same for a whole Tactical Squad as you do the BT upgrade box...

GMMStudios
12-04-2008, 17:10
No it's not. :p

The price of plastic is negligible, the designs are done, the sprues are made by computers. Cramming each new sprue with options would be an incredibly cheap and easy way of adding significant value for minimal cost. :)

No offense, but you have no idea how business in general, let alone how GW's business, works based on this long statement. Please please read up on business before you go and make statements like that. Thats how silly stuff like that spreads.


The price is already unreasonable. Giving us all the options we could want (like two Assault cannons in the SM Terminators box) would be a step towards making it more reasonable.

I don't mind paying GW prices, but when I pay a premium I expect a premium product.

If you don't like it then why are you still buying it?


I can make a mold of an existing sprue for less than 50 bucks that would last several thousand castings.

Each casting would cost around 60 cents each.

These are not mass production costs. This is making one mold and making casts from that one mold by one person buying small amounts of product from a local hobby store.

Most of GW's cost is packaging and shipping the product. Even then, their profit margin is quite large bordering on the ridiculous.


Care to share some numbers, citing your sources please?


It's the level of detail (it's just not possible to do in plastic) BUT it's also the cost of a plastic mould. It's much, much, much cheaper to cast models in metal than it is in plastic. It only makes sense to make moulds for plastic kits if you are sure you are going to sell a lot of them, then it becomes cheper per unit.

GK's weren´t projected to sell in quantities big enough to warrant the cost of plastic moulds => metal models they are.

Quoted for truth...

Im always amazed at the people that say that things should be cheaper in plastic!

Not trying to come off as an ****, just tring to inject some sense into this thread,

Take care guys

Mitheral
12-04-2008, 17:17
When I think it through, I've actually never seen a completely wysiwyg army (okay, maybe some orks or tyranids were close by) .... take new marines for example - if you'd like to be completely wysiwyg, then EACH single marine would have to have both typues of grenades and a pistol holster glued to his waist (and you just don't have that many grenades and holsters in a boxed set. ;)

My army is WYSIWYG, one of the advantages of Necrons. :D


I can make a mold of an existing sprue for less than 50 bucks that would last several thousand castings.

Each casting would cost around 60 cents each.

These are not mass production costs. This is making one mold and making casts from that one mold by one person buying small amounts of product from a local hobby store.

Most of GW's cost is packaging and shipping the product. Even then, their profit margin is quite large bordering on the ridiculous.

You're going to make a plastic injection mold for $50:confused:? Or are you talking about making a RTV mold for Resin. Everyone knows that resin is just as good as plast..., oh wait, it isn't.

And how much are your going to have to charge for those inferior copies to continue eating and keeping a heated roof over your head? Your "costs" aren't including the umpteen hours of work creating the models for casting in the first place (Fair enough since you stole that work). Overhead for your shop. OSHA Compliance (Resin is nasty stuff). Your time (I know your time isn't worth anything, too bad those bastard line workers at GW insist on getting paid). Profit margin for your retailers (hint the WarStore offers a 25% discount and still makes money). Losses on less popular armies so that SMs still have someone to play besides themselves. Warehousing so their isn't a 8 week lead time on every order. Marketing. Etc. Etc.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
12-04-2008, 17:50
Oh, and he is also using an existing sprue for his example, thus literally just making a mould.

GW, and other model manufacturers, have to TOOL a mould. That is, create it from scratch, including logistics of how the material will flow, downscaling from 3UP if necessary and so on.

But since he has claimed GW to have a profit margin 'bordering on the ridiculous' and I have shown pretty conclusive evidence to the contrary, can we take anything he says as truth, when he has clearly made no attempt to research or support his claims?

Dreachon
12-04-2008, 17:55
The price of a metal mould is considerably larger then the stupendous amount of 50 bucks, try a 100 or a 1000 times that at the very least.

Adept
12-04-2008, 20:10
So each Tactical Squad box should come with every single wargear item in the Codex for the Sergeant, all different heavy weapons,

Is it so much to ask? Obviously the 'non visible' items of wargear don't need parts on the sprue, but all the weapon options the squad can possibly take should be represented.

lord_blackfang
12-04-2008, 20:22
Is it so much to ask? Obviously the 'non visible' items of wargear don't need parts on the sprue, but all the weapon options the squad can possibly take should be represented.

Yeah, I think it's pretty unrealistic to demand several unique extra sprues per box. Or let me put it this way - GW's budget only allows for a certain number of new sprues per Codex release. Do you want 3 new units in plastic with some options missing, or one new unit with so many bitz you'll throw 90% away?

How much stuff would CSM Termies need, for example?
For 5 models that's 5 pairs of lightning claws, 5 power weapons, 5 power fists, 5 chainfists, 5 twin bolters, 5 bolter-meltas, 5 bolter-flamers, and 5 bolter-plasmas. That's 45 weapon arms of which you'll throw 35 away (because all the other boxes have all the options too, so you'll never need any extras for conversions). Too bad it all required 2 extra sprues, so we won't see plastic Possessed and Spawn for another 6 years. Awesome deal.

Taliel
12-04-2008, 20:27
I must say that as an Eldar player I never had much problem with the wysiwyg rule,albeit I just bought 2 war walkers which i wanted to equip with scatterlasers across the unit.Guess what,only one scatterlaser per box -.-
Thank god I had one from my wraithlord,but the 4-th one is coming from my wave serpent sprue which is a lot different then the walker variant so I will need to remodel it with some greenstuff. If I didnt have these I would be really pissed off

Isambard
12-04-2008, 20:35
I actually like the current system as it is, if you want certain combinations or equipment or options you have to work on them yourself.

As someone who went to a great length to convert a unit or Warlocks plus a Farseer on Jetbikes I get a lot of satisfaction from using them. By putting a bit more time and effort (and, God forbid, money) into your models you should appreciate them much more.

Adept
12-04-2008, 20:45
That's 45 weapon arms of which you'll throw 35 away (because all the other boxes have all the options too, so you'll never need any extras for conversions). Too bad it all required 2 extra sprues, so we won't see plastic Possessed and Spawn for another 6 years. Awesome deal.

The whole Posessed unit comes on two sprues?

Do we even need plastic Spawn?

Couldn't we rework the sprues to fit more in, with less wasted space?

How does this apply to making a single 'every heavy weapon' sprue for Space Marines, and including one in each tactical squad box, and four for devastator boxes?

Once again, if I'm paying through the nose for these products (and lets not kid ourselves, we are paying through the nose) then I want a high quality product that doesn't require follow up purchases to complete it. If I buy a box of marines, I shouldn't have to buy more models, just to field the tactical sqyad I want. If I buy a box of devastators, I shouldn't have to buy extra models because I wanted to field 4 heavy bolters. I shouldn't have to bits order a separate sprue to field two assault cannons in my terminator squad.

Not at the prices GW charges.

starlight
12-04-2008, 20:52
No offense, but you have no idea how business in general, let alone how GW's business, works based on this long statement. Please please read up on business before you go and make statements like that. Thats how silly stuff like that spreads.

<snip>

Quoted for truth...

Im always amazed at the people that say that things should be cheaper in plastic!

Not trying to come off as an ****, just tring to inject some sense into this thread,

Take care guys

So running multiple businesses (most successfully) and advising many more over the last fifteen years, working for GWCan HQ, and having a university education in Business doesn't give me any knowledge about how to run a business, especially GW's...?

Let's just say I'll be disagreeing with you on that one.:rolleyes:


...and things *should* be cheaper in plastic because GW's costs are lower. This may come as a surprise to you, but GW only goes to plastic *because* it's cheaper. Cost per unit is far below that of metal models, updates are less expensive and shipping costs are reduced (just to touch on a few points).

The steel mould *is* more expensive than the moulds for metal or resin models (although the steel mould costs have dropped considerably for GW), however the steel moulds for plastic sprues last far longer thus lowering the cost per unit (currently sprues run less than $0.05 in materials). GW doesn't switch to plastic for a given unit unless they think they will sell more than enough sprues to offset the increased cost of the mould and then some. Labour costs are also reduced as the plastic moulding process is largely automated and doesn't involve liquid metal (additional safety concerns).

When they want to add stuff to a given existing plastic sprue, all they have to do is carve it into the unused space on the existing mould. They don't have to buy a whole new mould, so the costs are limited to the design, grinding and polishing of the new features. Since the majority of the new processes are CAD, this dramatically reduces the costs compared to the old ways. GW also has the ability to scan their existing metal and resin (FW) models to see which ones are suitable for plastic moulds in their current state and which will need tweaking.

Shipping plastic sprues is considerably cheaper than metal models, thus saving GW significantly on that end.


So, while you may not be coming off as an ****, you certainly aren't injecting any sense either...

Archangel_Ruined
12-04-2008, 21:07
My marine army is WYSIWYG, I like the current system. My guard army is too. GW are a LOT better than they used to be, and as has been said it would cost a fortune to include everything in plastic, so we'd see less new units in plastic and less models in a box.

starlight
12-04-2008, 21:11
Actually GW has stated that they are moving (slowly sometimes) to having their *entire line* in plastic. They are simply working from the most profitable on down. That way the more profitable boxes help pay for the less profitable ones.:)

lord_blackfang
12-04-2008, 21:13
The whole Posessed unit comes on two sprues?

Do we even need plastic Spawn?

Couldn't we rework the sprues to fit more in, with less wasted space?

How does this apply to making a single 'every heavy weapon' sprue for Space Marines, and including one in each tactical squad box, and four for devastator boxes?

Once again, if I'm paying through the nose for these products (and lets not kid ourselves, we are paying through the nose) then I want a high quality product that doesn't require follow up purchases to complete it. If I buy a box of marines, I shouldn't have to buy more models, just to field the tactical sqyad I want. If I buy a box of devastators, I shouldn't have to buy extra models because I wanted to field 4 heavy bolters. I shouldn't have to bits order a separate sprue to field two assault cannons in my terminator squad.

Not at the prices GW charges.

How hard is it to understand that GW doesn't have the resources to do this? Or should they just drop whatever product lines you think we don't need so you can have the models you want straight out of the box? Maybe get rid of Dark Eldar to make room for that 3" thick 10-man Tactical Squad box...

Deus Mechanicus
12-04-2008, 21:16
Maybe get rid of Dark Eldar to make room for that 3" thick 10-man Tactical Squad box...

I think you presented the solution in your own post.

Adra
12-04-2008, 21:29
i didnt realise it was my job as a consumer to make excuses for GW's shortcommings.

A determination is made as to what will be used the most and how much space they have and how much money they can charge. yes this sometimes sucks for us but thats how it goes. they are getting better at this but only slowly. the chaos termies are a bit of a joke...so many options they just cant deal with it. Not sure why we havent seen a chaos termie assault / regular box sets.

HsojVvad
12-04-2008, 21:33
I just laught at people who play SM and are WYSIWYG fanatic but his Libraians don't have WYSIWYG for their warp powers. So technacily he can't use them lol.

Rocky44
12-04-2008, 21:34
I just laught at people who play SM and are WYSIWYG fanatic but his Libraians don't have WYSIWYG for their warp powers. So technacily he can't use them lol.

Warp powers are automatically WYSIWYG, you can't represent them.

Templar Ben
12-04-2008, 23:00
ORLY?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/financialhighlights.aspx

My Maths is a little rusty, I freely admit, but that looks awfully like a 1% margin of profit to me.

The money grubbing sods!

Perhaps he was talking about the 70% gross margin? Just because GW found a way to lose a lot of money doesn't mean it wasn't there from operations.


No offense, but you have no idea how business in general, let alone how GW's business, works based on this long statement. Please please read up on business before you go and make statements like that. Thats how silly stuff like that spreads.

Please point out what was in error. The raw material is cheaper, the logistics is cheaper, the labor is cheaper and the production runs are longer.


If you don't like it then why are you still buying it?

Perhaps he has stopped but that is the type of discussion you normally see down in Other GW when someone points out that GW is ignoring the base. I am glad you have the "if you don't like it then leave" verse down well.


Care to share some numbers, citing your sources please?

He is talking about recasting. You honestly think recasting is expensive? I linked once to a book one can order on how to make molds using a dremel and using milk jugs for the raw plastic. The cost of the set up was very low.

I am not saying that GW costs are low just that a garage operation can be.


Quoted for truth...

Im always amazed at the people that say that things should be cheaper in plastic!

Not trying to come off as an ****, just tring to inject some sense into this thread,

Take care guys

Other than a one time sunk cost that is recovered over a very large production run, everything is cheaper with plastic. Perhaps you can help explain why people should not expect plastic to be cheaper.


How hard is it to understand that GW doesn't have the resources to do this? Or should they just drop whatever product lines you think we don't need so you can have the models you want straight out of the box? Maybe get rid of Dark Eldar to make room for that 3" thick 10-man Tactical Squad box...

I agree. Drop Dark Eldar.


i didnt realise it was my job as a consumer to make excuses for GW's shortcommings.

Don't worry. Plenty of other consumers will do that for you. Just look above.

HsojVvad
12-04-2008, 23:02
Yes you can represent anything, with a little bit of imagination. The problem is once you say WYSIWYG and are really sticking to it, then everything should be, or you have to give some leaway to your opponent

Mitheral
12-04-2008, 23:50
Well it seems like a simple solution to the problem would be for GW to just eliminate all those pesky options. A simple codex rewrite will eliminate all those options that aren't fully represented on the current sprues. So only one ass cannon per termie squad. Allow marines to only take a single type of grenade. etc. etc.

starlight
12-04-2008, 23:53
Well, since the DA/BA (generally accepted to be a peek at C:SM) Terminator Squads are limited to five Terminators *and* only have one Assault Cannon, I'd say you have your wish. :)

nightgant98c
12-04-2008, 23:58
The only times it has ever bothered me is when there is an option in your codex, and there is no model, or bit made for it. In the old Ork codex, several weapons, and a vehicle or two, were not made at all. When I started Eldar, the only Wave Srpent was from Forge World. Conversion is great for those who have the time or talent, but I am often short on both. Having all the options in the box isn't neccesary, but you should be able to get what you want with a minimum of hassle.

Templar Ben
12-04-2008, 23:59
I would prefer a solution of up to three per Terminator squad but only one of each.

Then again until they rewrite BT I am good. ;)

The_Outsider
13-04-2008, 00:12
I've only run into a WYSIWYG problem when (unsurprisingly) playing DE - you cannot buy from GW a ravager with 3 disintegrators (IIRC its never actually existed), or can you technically buy warrior special weapons anymore.

Hence why i've had to convert splintercannon into blasters (splintercannon are another thing - you get waaaay too many in the warrior box, like 2 for every 4 guys and the box has 16 models in it).

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-04-2008, 00:24
I would prefer a solution of up to three per Terminator squad but only one of each.

Then again until they rewrite BT I am good. ;)

What's the third? You mean a squad can have a heavy flamer and an Asscan but not two of either? Sounds good to me, personally.

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 01:13
The missile launcher backpack. Yeah, that is what I was saying.

HsojVvad
13-04-2008, 02:10
Then again I don't see the problem, if you use "counts as" and WYSIWYG is no problem then. Isn't this game about FUN and not serious nitpicking?

imweasel
13-04-2008, 04:37
So each Tactical Squad box should come with every single wargear item in the Codex for the Sergeant, all different heavy weapons, and why not throw in a Rhino, Razorback and Drop Pod, too?

At the prices GW charges, I am sure this would not be out of reach...

imweasel
13-04-2008, 04:40
ORLY?

http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/financialhighlights.aspx

My Maths is a little rusty, I freely admit, but that looks awfully like a 1% margin of profit to me.

The money grubbing sods!

I was going to respond to this, but I think it's already been said.

Joewrightgm
13-04-2008, 04:43
Then again I don't see the problem, if you use "counts as" and WYSIWYG is no problem then. Isn't this game about FUN and not serious nitpicking?

hmm . . . looking at most of the above posts, apparently not. I believe Hellebore said it best: "people have stopped playing the game and are trying to beat it," or something to that effect.

Just don't be abusive about Counts As, and no one gets hurt. Thats the way I see it.

shabbadoo
13-04-2008, 05:07
WYSIWYG is a tournament rule to keep ********s from being...well...********s. Yes, it would be nice if the model kits covered *every single possible option in totality*, and GW has been able to do this with some kits. If you play friendly games then having at least half of the models with the featured Genestealer heads should be fine. As to Devastator Squads, most players are not going to buy just one box of them because those heavy weapons can be spread out to Tactical squads too. To expect the Devastator Squad kit to come with 20 heavy weapons (4 of each) is a bit much. I think it is very unreasonable to expect GW to cater to every possible (and often freakish) army build out there. GW does provide for a quite a lot of options on its sprues now.

Answer me this though. If you want GW to include every option on the unit sprues, how would you feel about GW cutting options by half or more from the codexes, just so that they could do this? For instance, the Devastator Squad set would comeswith 4 of each weapon, but there would only be heavy bolters and missile launchers as weapon options in the box because they removed all of the other heavy weapon options for the Space Marine codex. Can’t complain about not having something in a kit when it isn’t an option in the first place now, eh? Of course, the other solution is to include every single *******’ possible option, such that it increases the price of the model set by 50%.

I don’t think anybody would be happy about either of these remedies. This rant is one of those that I think the old saying “Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.” applies to really well.

Stormhammers
13-04-2008, 05:21
OR, do what gamers have done for years...if it isn't represented in the sprue, just convert your own, been going on for years, suprised people dont do it more often these days.

imweasel
13-04-2008, 05:21
Answer me this though. If you want GW to include every option on the unit sprues, how would you feel about GW cutting options by half or more from the codexes, just so that they could do this? For instance, the Devastator Squad set will comes with 4 of each weapon, but then there would only be heavy bolters and missile launchers as weapon options in the box because they removed all of the other heavy weapon options for the Space Marine codex. Can’t complain about not having something in a kit when it isn’t an option in the first place now, eh? Of course, the other solution is to include every single *******’ possible option, such that it increases the price of the model set by 50%.

Ok, I'm game. Let's actually see GW do this. I bet you that it would never even cross their minds. I would actually be happy if they put in 2 of each weapon.


I don’t think anybody would be happy about either of these remedies. What we have now is a nice median between the two, and it works pretty well. The rant is one of those that the old saying “Be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it.” applies to really well.

I think that GW are the only one's that believe that there is a 'nice median'.

I must say, after seeing the price for the new 5th ed boxed set coming out, they must be losing $200+ US for every unit! After all, buying all those models that are coming out in the new 5th ed starter box is approx $262 US, not counting the templates, dice, rulebook or the deff koptas!

You really think any business, as a standard business model or business practice, will sell anything that retails for $60 US and costs them that much?

starlight
13-04-2008, 05:34
In a word.....no.:)

Hellebore
13-04-2008, 05:38
/rant on

If GW is halfway serious about this rule, they should give you all the options for every model you buy in the box sets.

A couple of examples

Devestator Squads should come with enough weapons in every box where you can create whatever you want out of the box.

Genestealers should come with enough heads to make all of them whatever you want.

For as much as they charge it should be a lot better.

/rant off

The two aren't directly related though.

How the box is outfitted is immaterial to the rule itself. You are complaining about the lack of complete OPTIONS which is a different matter.

If you'd said something to effect of 'chaos marines should all have chainswords, bolt pistols and bolters on the model' it would have been more accurate because at the moment those models as presented by GW are NOT WYSIWYG.

The devestator box produces perfectly fine WYSIWYG models, just not all the OPTIONS.

Hellebore

Hakar
13-04-2008, 06:23
And what would happen if GW put every option in (for example) the SM boxes?
People would come to the forum whining that they need to buy more basic marines to use all those weapons.
"I have 20 heavy weapons but there's only 5 space marine bodies in the box! If they're going to put in so many weapons they should give us the marines as well!"

Stormhammers
13-04-2008, 06:26
And what would happen if GW put every option in (for example) the SM boxes?
People would come to the forum whining that they need to buy more basic marines to use all those weapons.
"I have 20 heavy weapons but there's only 5 space marine bodies in the box! If they're going to put in so many weapons they should give us the marines as well!"

that does sound exactly like what would happen...

marv335
13-04-2008, 06:34
that does sound exactly like what would happen...
The head od GW could turn up at someones house with signed copies of the codecies and a fully painted and converted (by the 'eavy metal team) army for them, and they'd still complain about it.
;)

starlight
13-04-2008, 06:36
"Hey, I don't like those colours!":mad:

:p

destroyerlord
13-04-2008, 06:44
Yeah I don't really understand the OPs problem...conversions have always been a part of this hobby, and when it comes down to it, the rules are made for the models, not the other way around. If you only have a model with a fusion pistol, use the rules for a fusion pistol, if you want to put in the effort and make a conversion, thats fine too.
The IG heavy weapons are a classic case. Remember all the threads about how to build like 12 out of the 15 weapons when they first came out? And thats from a box designed to build 3 (only comes with 6 men).

Adept
13-04-2008, 06:56
How hard is it to understand that GW doesn't have the resources to do this?

Of course they do. We aren't talking about developing entirely new sprues here, simply adding to existing ones, or using existing pieces to put together a new one, which costs a fraction of the price of developing a new sprue from concept to mold.


Maybe get rid of Dark Eldar to make room for that 3" thick 10-man Tactical Squad box...

You don't think you could fit another two sprues into the SM box as it is?

Stormhammers
13-04-2008, 06:56
it seems that many of the "newer" players dont remember the days when conversions were required for some units.

Adept
13-04-2008, 07:06
Answer me this though. If you want GW to include every option on the unit sprues, how would you feel about GW cutting options by half or more from the codexes, just so that they could do this?

If it was done right, I'd be happy with it.


Of course, the other solution is to include every single freakin’ possible option, such that it increases the price of the model set by 50%.

Or the other solution: GW absorbs the cost of recutting several sprues to provide more complete unit options, giving gamers more bang for their buck and not alienating their customer base.


And what would happen if GW put every option in (for example) the SM boxes?
People would come to the forum whining that they need to buy more basic marines to use all those weapons.
"I have 20 heavy weapons but there's only 5 space marine bodies in the box! If they're going to put in so many weapons they should give us the marines as well!"

Well, theres no accounting for idiots.

Adept
13-04-2008, 07:10
it seems that many of the "newer" players dont remember the days when conversions were required for some units.

:rolleyes:

Who cares? If I'm paying more than $50 for five plastic men, I shouldn't then have to convert some of them, or buy extra models, just to field the five men that I want.

Stormhammers
13-04-2008, 08:01
that is true, back when conversions were done, a rhino was under $20 and you could buy 10 marines for around $30 perhaps. For the prices they are going for now, yeah, they should have more, but no, just a larger pricetag.

WLBjork
13-04-2008, 10:11
Perhaps he was talking about the 70% gross margin? Just because GW found a way to lose a lot of money doesn't mean it wasn't there from operations.

Well, I'd like to see evidence of this supposed 70% gross margin. In previous years, GW have had a gross that hit as high as 20% in 2006.

This year, the gross profit was about 1.5% - and that was accopmanied by a cost reduction program which took GW to a net loss of almost 2%.

Lord Damocles
13-04-2008, 10:44
/rant on

If GW is halfway serious about this rule, they should give you all the options for every model you buy in the box sets.

/rant off

/Counter rant on

Lets just consider this for a moment shall we... if GW put 'all the options for every model' in the Tactical Squad box set, they'd need:

10 marines
10 frag grenades
10 krak grenades
10 bolters
10 bolt pistols (+ holsters)
10 close combat weapons
2 plasma guns
2 melta guns
2 flamers
missile launcher
multi melta + backpack
heavy bolter + backpack
plasma cannon + backpack
las cannon + backpack
plasma pistol
power weapon
power fist
2 lightning claws
teleport homer
suit of artificer armour
combat shield
storm shield
suit of terminator armour
storm bolter
combi-plasma gun
combi-flamer
combi-melta gun
melta bomb(s)
auspex
bionic limb(s)
narthecium
reductor
chainfist
purity seal(s)
eldar, ork, and tyranid trophies
+ all those pouches, spare ammo, mono-sights, relics etc.

Erm... no. Just no.

/rant off

Müller
13-04-2008, 10:49
/Counter rant on

Lets just consider this for a moment shall we... if GW put 'all the options for every model' in the Tactical Squad box set, they'd need:

10 marines
10 frag grenades
10 krak grenades
10 bolters
10 bolt pistols (+ holsters)
10 close combat weapons
2 plasma guns
2 melta guns
2 flamers
missile launcher
multi melta + backpack
heavy bolter + backpack
plasma cannon + backpack
las cannon + backpack
plasma pistol
power weapon
power fist
2 lightning claws
teleport homer
suit of artificer armour
combat shield
storm shield
suit of terminator armour
storm bolter
combi-plasma gun
combi-flamer
combi-melta gun
melta bomb(s)
auspex
bionic limb(s)
narthecium
reductor
chainfist
purity seal(s)
eldar, ork, and tyranid trophies
+ all those pouches, spare ammo, mono-sights, relics etc.

Erm... no. Just no.

/rant off


No more discussions needed...

And BTW, if you can't deal with maybe having to convert a bit and actually do real modelling, then maybe a hobby which is all about modelling up and painting your wn army to play with maybe isn't the thing for you?

NerdyOgre254
13-04-2008, 11:32
The head od GW could turn up at someones house with signed copies of the codecies and a fully painted and converted (by the 'eavy metal team) army for them, and they'd still complain about it.
;)

I wouldn't.

In reference to the above post, GW's new style of codex writing has solved a lot of problems in regard to converting wargear.

Preston
13-04-2008, 11:38
Weapon options should at least be available, at at least 1. For example, chaos terminators. No combi plasma gun, no lightning claws.

Adding 1 combi plasma gun and 1 pair of claws to the sprue would have been really nice.

Corax
13-04-2008, 11:38
Ulrig: :cries:

Corax: :rolleyes:

Ulrig: :mad:

Corax: :evilgrin:

AmKhaibitu
13-04-2008, 11:52
Weapon options should at least be available, at at least 1. For example, chaos terminators. No combi plasma gun, no lightning claws.

Adding 1 combi plasma gun and 1 pair of claws to the sprue would have been really nice.

You mean like the lightning claws in the lord box?

Of course equipping an entire unit with claws isn't so easy, but in some cases it'd be worth buying a few of those boxes, if only to add to the terminators.

Partisan Rimmo
13-04-2008, 12:18
The state of WYSIWYG in boxed sets wouldn't phase me if GW STILL LET YOU BUY COMPONANTS!!

Ahem. Caps lock is not cruise control for cool. Personally I'm always a little upset when I assemble a squad and have spare weapons. But this could well just be me.

Bloodknight
13-04-2008, 12:20
I would just try to exchange these with other people who do not equip their termis/lords with TLC, but I do agree that they could have put a few more combimeltas (what's there? one? - I don't know, I prefer the metal terminators for their better detail anyway) and combiplasma into the boxes because these are obvious upgrades people are going to take en masse.

Goq Gar
13-04-2008, 12:29
The New Ork Boyz Boxes are, and I cannot stress this enough, ENTIRELY Wysiwyg compatible, except for the heads. (I want helmets, and nothing but helmets). But then again, that's not impossible to do, if you know even ONE fellow ork player, he can save enough helmeted heads for you... but sadly I know none :( ).

HOWEVER, this means the ork box is massive, and you still only get 10 boyz out of it. And the result? it costs just a little less than a box of marines (at least where I am), for a unit that is approximately 1/3 the points worth. Expensive army as result.

I would have settled for none of the heavy weapons, and kustom making my own power klaws (which I have already started doing, as all the klaws seem far too uniform).

If marine boxes came with every doodad and gizmo you could theoretically arm it with, well, you'd have to start selling tactical squads in crates, and devestator squads in lorries. Besides, bit-scavenging is a part of the hobby's history :D

Müller
13-04-2008, 12:58
Making your own lightning claws can make quite some real badass models...
And as already stated, the mail order scervice for bitz isn't down for good, but is being re-done and will be back up, focus on the other unit than the lightning claws-wielding termies for when you can get them claws again from GW, or find them from others....

Ulrig
13-04-2008, 14:45
I think a lot of people are missing the point of my original post, so let me clarify a few things.

First off im not a new player, im a returning one.

GW has this WYSIWYG rule in place. Yeah most players you play with are not so strict on this, its still a rule for the game and even more so in tournaments. This is their rules with their products, it is what it is.

For all of you people saying "Gee, would you want every option put in every box? Thats a waste of weapons and resources!"

This is already done in some cases. The gaunt spurs come with every weapon option. When they are all done and put together...thats a lot of weapons left over cut up setting in a tackle box.

Unless you magnetize a carnifex(which i have done to 5 of mine), you have a lot of weapons, heads, carpaces and other bits going to waste not being used that you already paid $40 for.

Building my nid army I have already found two serious lack of options in boxes. Nid warriors and genestealers. I cannot build what I wanted to out of them. I just mentioned devestator boxes (my friend plays sm) and apparently it was a bad example, for this I apologize. The lack of options is still a issue.

Another spur full of weapons and etc thrown in the box would not raise the price up beyond the point of not buying them because we are already paying thru the nose for them. What is another $5-$10?

FifthWindLegion
13-04-2008, 14:51
What is another $5-$10?

More than I want to pay, seeing their prices now.

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 15:06
Well, I'd like to see evidence of this supposed 70% gross margin. In previous years, GW have had a gross that hit as high as 20% in 2006.

This year, the gross profit was about 1.5% - and that was accopmanied by a cost reduction program which took GW to a net loss of almost 2%.

Perhaps it is just because you don't know how to read an annual report? Have you any experience with accounting? I honestly don't understand how you can be so confused about Gross Margin.

We can use 2006 as an example.
Revenue 115500 (000)
Gross Profit 80885 (000)
Ergo gross margin 70.24%

Is it a math issue? If you want you can PM me and I can give you a run down on how to read a report so you won't get so confused about the terms used.

Glad to help.

sing Sang a song
13-04-2008, 15:21
damn, i was gonna use my models i got from SW battleforce as wulfens...,

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 15:31
damn, i was gonna use my models i got from SW battleforce as wulfens...,

Why can't you?

imweasel
13-04-2008, 15:31
Perhaps it is just because you don't know how to read an annual report? Have you any experience with accounting? I honestly don't understand how you can be so confused about Gross Margin.

We can use 2006 as an example.
Revenue 115500 (000)
Gross Profit 80885 (000)
Ergo gross margin 70.24%

Is it a math issue? If you want you can PM me and I can give you a run down on how to read a report so you won't get so confused about the terms used.

Glad to help.

Don't even bother with logic and math Templar. When rabid fanbois start defending the people/game/company they worship, such things as logic and math just don't work.

After all, 40k is not so much a game as a simple collector's/modeler's hobby.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 15:38
Gross Operating Profit though, is surely the Companies overall profit margin? Am I right, or am I wrong?

Why not explain it here? If I'm right in thinking, then you are reading the report to work out the exact mark up on each Blister and Boxed set, which, if I am to take your word for it, is 70%. However, the Gross Operating Profit is 1%. This does not tie up to my mind, so please, explain it for us all here. I am genuinely interested, as I used to do a bit of book keeping once (I can work out my own tax, roughly).

And Imweasel, calling people fanbois for presenting facts and figures, and then flaming them for not using fact and figures isn't just rude, it's plain hypocritical.

lord_blackfang
13-04-2008, 15:46
Don't even bother with logic and math Templar. When rabid fanbois start defending the people/game/company they worship, such things as logic and math just don't work.

As opposed to the rabid whiners, who always back down when proven wrong with "logic and math?" :rolleyes:

EmperorEternalXIX
13-04-2008, 15:55
I personally find the prices steep but not unreasonable -- but that comes from my RTS background. See, when I pay 50 bucks for a Terminator box, I am figuring it more like my Money and GW's Points are my two resources in my RTS video game of 40k Consumer Wars. So I figure we pay for it based on what it does in-game.

This is, of course, a figment of my imagination...but it makes the pain on my wallet so much less harrowing to live in this delusion...

As an SM player I have to say I am more than satisfied (naturally, heh). I have seldom had a box set that did not include the vast majority of what I wanted and options otherwise. Some things are inexcusable though -- the popularity of drop troop guard with plasma guns, yet not a single plasma gun model floating through most boxed sets is totally unforgivable. But they seem to be making en effort to make it right. I mean...the new Orks are a good example. Also the new Devs -- two boxes of those and you pretty much have enough to make an all-one-weapon squad with all the most popular heavy weapons in an SM army. They are slowly but surely figuring out that there are better ways to do things as the computers get into play a bit more.

Fact is, at the end of the day I love the game and if they need to charge me 50 bucks for five terminators to keep profits up and keep the game alive I will gladly pay it, whether it's "correct" or otherwise.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 15:59
If you want to see the value behind GWs prices, and indeed anything else, use the following sum!

Tot up the cost of getting everything you need. Then, work out the number of leisure hours this new army/game/whatever will use up. Divide the cost by the hours, and you have the average hourly cost to indulge in said activity.

I think you'll find GW represents pretty decent value over a year. Last time I worked out the relative value of my Savage Orcs (all metal, still underconstruction, so a pretty good example I felt. Well, as opposed to going for the cheapest possible army) it was something like £2 per hour, over a year, including modelling, painting and gaming.

But of course, this is a positive look at the cost of something, ergo Fanboy, and thus utterly wrong.

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 16:39
Gross Operating Profit though, is surely the Companies overall profit margin? Am I right, or am I wrong?

Why not explain it here? If I'm right in thinking, then you are reading the report to work out the exact mark up on each Blister and Boxed set, which, if I am to take your word for it, is 70%. However, the Gross Operating Profit is 1%. This does not tie up to my mind, so please, explain it for us all here. I am genuinely interested, as I used to do a bit of book keeping once (I can work out my own tax, roughly).

And Imweasel, calling people fanbois for presenting facts and figures, and then flaming them for not using fact and figures isn't just rude, it's plain hypocritical.

Gross profit margin is the revenue minus cost of sales divided by revenue.

Gross profit is net sales minus cost of goods sold. (Net sales is revenue minus the allowance for returns and nonpayment.)

Net income (the bottom line) is the money left over after paying for the sum of Cost of goods sold + Sales discounts + Sales returns and allowances + Expenses + Financing + Taxes + Minority interests + Preferred Stock.

Net margin is net income divided by net sales revenue. (This is how well a company can control costs.)

Operating income is operating revenue(usually the same as net sales revenue, as in GW's case, but could be different by industry) minus operating expenses (COGS, sales expense, depreciation, amortization, etc.).

Operating margin is operating income (operating profit on that side of the pond) divided by revenue. This is how well the company does at paying the variable costs so they can pay interest on debt.

Hope that helps.

EDIT:
I missed part in the middle. I am not working out the exact markup on each blister. I am giving you the average for only those items that sold in a given year. There is more markup on the SM commander (one sprue $15) then for a metal figure that is $15. It would not make sense for GW to use a cost plus pricing scheme as the demand across the lines vary so much.

As to how GW is able to lose so much in operations, the big reason is that mill stone that the stores represent. There are other ways that they lose money but that is the biggest.


If you want to see the value behind GWs prices, and indeed anything else, use the following sum!

Tot up the cost of getting everything you need. Then, work out the number of leisure hours this new army/game/whatever will use up. Divide the cost by the hours, and you have the average hourly cost to indulge in said activity.

I think you'll find GW represents pretty decent value over a year. Last time I worked out the relative value of my Savage Orcs (all metal, still underconstruction, so a pretty good example I felt. Well, as opposed to going for the cheapest possible army) it was something like £2 per hour, over a year, including modelling, painting and gaming.

But of course, this is a positive look at the cost of something, ergo Fanboy, and thus utterly wrong.

Well that is a very personal way of viewing it. Some love to paint and others view it as a chore before then can begin playing the game. The other thing to consider is that most don't truly compare GW games to golf and instead compare GW games to Gamezone or PP or WotC. If people are going to spend the same number of hours playing games and one alternative is by far cheaper then it stands to reason that game will have a more favorable cost per hour.

That presumes that the level of fun is the same. I know I personally have more "fun value" in a game of LotR than in an equally long game of 40K. That is simply because I gain fun from the rules making sense and that is lacking for the most part from 40K. I can get more "fun value" with 40K models by playing Star Grunt 2. I am not sure how all of that feeds into the equation above.

EDIT (Since I am editing anyway above):
I have never said being a fanboy makes you wrong. I think fanboys are sometimes too quick to defend and I agree that us cynics can be more critical then GW deserves on occasion.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 16:49
I;m afraid it didn't. Any chance of giving us a numerical example? I tried to follow it but I went all cross eyed and got confused.

As for using 40k models in another game, that still comes under the gaming time, so works for the equation.

And it is indeed a personal equation as you pointed out. I manage to game for about 4 hours a week at present, and I consider myself lucky to get regular games in. If you game less, the value will be less, if you game more, the value will be greater and so on. However, going on my results, GW gaming is cheaper than pretty much anything else I might do, bar smoking. Which is kind of depressing really.

Mr. Smuckles
13-04-2008, 16:51
I interpret WYSIWYG to mean that somewhere in the unit there is an item that represents a given piece of wargear. For my Ork army, I have one boy holding a stikkbomb to represent stikkbombs for the entire unit, thus allowing me to switch loadouts just by switching out that model.

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 16:54
To keep it from getting all confused, do you know how you can format text in a post so that everything lines up? Tabs won't do it and I think the example would make more sense if everything lined up.

I found the only way to really play with my 40K models has been to use a different game. 40K rules are to wonky for most of us now.

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 16:54
I interpret WYSIWYG to mean that somewhere in the unit there is an item that represents a given piece of wargear. For my Ork army, I have one boy holding a stikkbomb to represent stikkbombs for the entire unit, thus allowing me to switch loadouts just by switching out that model.

Just be careful when removing casualties. ;)

lord_blackfang
13-04-2008, 17:02
To keep it from getting all confused, do you know how you can format text in a post so that everything lines up? Tabs won't do it and I think the example would make more sense if everything lined up.


Wrap it up in [code] tags.

The_Outsider
13-04-2008, 17:07
WYSIWYG is a guidline not a rule - something many players forget*.

*Obviously this must be used in conjunction with golden rule number 2: "Use common sense".

Rioghan Murchadha
13-04-2008, 17:38
That presumes that the level of fun is the same. I know I personally have more "fun value" in a game of LotR than in an equally long game of 40K. That is simply because I gain fun from the rules making sense and that is lacking for the most part from 40K. I can get more "fun value" with 40K models by playing Star Grunt 2. I am not sure how all of that feeds into the equation above.

EDIT (Since I am editing anyway above):
I have never said being a fanboy makes you wrong. I think fanboys are sometimes too quick to defend and I agree that us cynics can be more critical then GW deserves on occasion.

I tend to agree. The 'this is an expensive hobby, deal with it.' argument only holds water if all tabletop miniature games are equally expensive. This is patently not the case. You have Privateer's stuff, (far cheaper by material volume) Rackham's new prepaint AT-43, and Confrontation (much cheaper when you factor in cost of modelling materials and time spent painting), and a myriad of other mini games out there.

If you get more fun value out of LotR, then it's obviously a more worthwhile game to play, since the higher fun value, and lower cost of minis combine to make it far superior to 40k from your personal standpoint. However, by the same token, if you enjoy SGII, and play it with 40k minis as I do, then those 40k minis still represent a good value for money (despite being overpriced).

And yes, the minis are so expensive primarily to pay for the stores. GW would be much better served by a good online store, and some proper advertising. As it stands, the stores have to be staffed, they allow people who paint in store to use their supplies which have to be written off, etc. etc. and at the end of the day, most people buy from other sources. It's all about their mentality of only advertising in WD and through the storefront.

Maxis Lithium
13-04-2008, 17:53
Having played since 2nd ed, and remember when everything was metal, and converting needed a hacksaw, yea. WYSIWYG sometimes seems a bit unreasonable. originally, this is why blisters existed, you bought what you needed in blisters. As they are trying to move away from that, more and more we are seeing model kits that have all the options in the box.

I pride myself on the fact that my armies are WYSIWYG. Sometimes it may seem subtle, but it's all there. There's more to the hobby then just opening a bod and putting together plastic.

Kaihlik
13-04-2008, 18:02
I have to say that their Gross profit is a useless figure if it doesn't take into account what they spend on other things. Personally I don't know what sort of things they dont take off to work out the gross profit (like labour costs, production costs and other things). If they operate on a net profit of 1% then the fact that they have a gross profit margin of 70% is irrelivant, at the end of the day they still only have a 1% profit margin to work with.

Games workshop are getting better at adding in weapons and upgrades to boxes but to ask for them to change all of thier boxes to allow complete representation of WYSIWIG is an unrealistic demand. It is actually perfectly possible to represent all of the weapons on a CSM afaik. I think most people are willing to allow a certain amount of leeway with models even when playing WYSIWIG,. For example I have never requested that my opponents model grenades or pistols that come with the model. I get annoyed though when someone gives me a game and tells me that all those Terminators armed with a random assortment of weapons actually have lightining claws and an Icon of Khorne that isn't really there (i.e. wanting to be cheesy but refusing to pay the money to do it).

What you get in the boxes is a perfectly legal and usable set of stuff. While it is sometimes irritating to not have all of the options, to expect them all is unrealistic considering the sheer number of them as helpfully pointed out by Lord Damocles. If you are sick and tired of paying GW's prices then find another retailer who does them cheaper (they are out there) or don't buy things for a while and get use out of what you have.

I agree with Grotsnik about the value over time thing as I have been using my CSM army almost every week for months and they have proven their worth to me. Saying that I am not so naiive to fail to realise that their costs can be restrictive, I have many things that I would like to get but can't. All I can say to that is be patient and save up, thats what im doing.

Stormhammers
13-04-2008, 18:29
The state of WYSIWYG in boxed sets wouldn't phase me if GW STILL LET YOU BUY COMPONANTS!!

Ahem. Caps lock is not cruise control for cool. Personally I'm always a little upset when I assemble a squad and have spare weapons. But this could well just be me.

YES! but I'm not allowed to speak more of this subject, anymore...it has been the subject of more of my rants than anything else, and the mods might get mad if I have yet another post on the subject, but yes, GW really really does need to bring back their bitz program, that's what makes conversions possible...ok, time to stop, the anger sharks are swimming!

Johanlorenz
13-04-2008, 18:58
some times GW just make mistakes and this is a great example.... but let's all be honest we love GW no matter what

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 20:26
I have to say that their Gross profit is a useless figure if it doesn't take into account what they spend on other things. Personally I don't know what sort of things they dont take off to work out the gross profit (like labour costs, production costs and other things). If they operate on a net profit of 1% then the fact that they have a gross profit margin of 70% is irrelivant, at the end of the day they still only have a 1% profit margin to work with.

It is not useless. It can be misused but the use is still there. It is not irrelevant. It shows that they are starting from a huge mark up and somehow their operations are so inefficient that they are unable to retain those earnings.


Games workshop are getting better at adding in weapons and upgrades to boxes but to ask for them to change all of thier boxes to allow complete representation of WYSIWIG is an unrealistic demand. It is actually perfectly possible to represent all of the weapons on a CSM afaik. I think most people are willing to allow a certain amount of leeway with models even when playing WYSIWIG,. For example I have never requested that my opponents model grenades or pistols that come with the model. I get annoyed though when someone gives me a game and tells me that all those Terminators armed with a random assortment of weapons actually have lightining claws and an Icon of Khorne that isn't really there (i.e. wanting to be cheesy but refusing to pay the money to do it).

Ahhh, they want to be cheesy but not wanting to pay $50 a box. How dare they!


What you get in the boxes is a perfectly legal and usable set of stuff. While it is sometimes irritating to not have all of the options, to expect them all is unrealistic considering the sheer number of them as helpfully pointed out by Lord Damocles. If you are sick and tired of paying GW's prices then find another retailer who does them cheaper (they are out there) or don't buy things for a while and get use out of what you have.

I agree. There are much cheaper alternatives.


I agree with Grotsnik about the value over time thing as I have been using my CSM army almost every week for months and they have proven their worth to me. Saying that I am not so naiive to fail to realise that their costs can be restrictive, I have many things that I would like to get but can't. All I can say to that is be patient and save up, thats what im doing.

Or you can just get models from another manufacturer.


Wrap it up in [code] tags.

I will do that.



Revenue 115,150 100%
Cost of sales (34,265) 30%
Gross profit 80,885 70%
Operating expenses (77,838) 68%
Other operating income - royalties receivable 1,170 1%
Operating profit 4,217 4%
Finance income 238 0%
Finance costs (797) 1%
Profit before taxation 3,658 3%
Income tax expense (1,660) 1%
Profit attributable to equity shareholders 1,998 2%

The percentages are of total revenue.

Doc, 70% Gross Margin, 4% Operating Margin, 2% Net Margin.

Cider
14-04-2008, 02:35
one thing too is that if they are going wysiwyg, then they need to look at the sisters of battle since they can have upgrade but are METAL!!!!! and where is the love for them????

imweasel
14-04-2008, 04:07
As opposed to the rabid whiners, who always back down when proven wrong with "logic and math?" :rolleyes:

I think templars math has easily proven who is right or wrong on this one.

Don't blame me because GW can't run their company and are forced to make rules to force people to buy product they don't need that GW could easily provide.

Phiros
14-04-2008, 04:31
Leman Russ Battle Tanks only come with Heavy Bolters for sponson options and Las Cannon for hull mount option, at least the ones in the Apocalypse box set with 3 LRBT. Anyone know what model comes with Heavy Bolter for hull mount on the LRBT chassis? I figure I can just modify a sponson heavy bolter to work on it.

shabbadoo
14-04-2008, 05:23
GW does indeed make profit on their starter sets, just not as much as most other things. Of course we all understand that making gobs of cash is not the point of *starter sets* though...

Stormhammers
14-04-2008, 05:48
the exterminator used to have a hull mounted hvy bolter, but I believe it was disconinued and only available now through FW. You are stuck converting one.

Bookwrak
14-04-2008, 08:29
I think templars math has easily proven who is right or wrong on this one.

Don't blame me because GW can't run their company and are forced to make rules to force people to buy product they don't need that GW could easily provide.

What rule is that again? :confused:

Bloodknight
14-04-2008, 09:04
@Phiros: lascannon only, sorry. Like stormhammers said, the exterminator set had a metal hull heavy bolter, but the plastic sprue does not. When the Russ kit appeared first there were no rules to exchange that lascannon, the Russ was always equipped with LC and 2HB sponsons. You can scrounge up heavy bolters fro mthe heavy weapon sets since you can only build 3 heavy weapons from them without resorting to conversions.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 18:51
Actually, you can make 9 from it with conversions....

Heavy Bolter/Autocannon/Lascannon
Mortar
Missile Launcher.

All only using the standard body (like Guard players don't have them kicking about) and the Sprues.

Kaihlik
14-04-2008, 19:45
It is clear that most of Games Workshops costs stem from their shops. The question is do you think they would make more money without them in order to drop the prices of boxes or do you think a lack of stores would hurt them to the point of closure. I am undecided about that but since I visit my local GW to game regularly to game I do not want them to close their shops.

Oh and I do think that if you want to be cheesy you should pay for it. You can play perfectly good armies with what is in the box's (I do not want to see a second bloody asscannon in the termie box). If you want to play other games systems (which you clearly seem to want to do) then no one is stopping you. Have fun whatever you do.

pepe5454
14-04-2008, 21:55
I think they should at least have 4 or 5 weapon sprues like a couple of small marine cc sprues with lightning claws and other items on it. I would like to not have to buy 3 commander boxes in order to get 3 storm bolters for my vets squad etc. I would like on my DA just to have vets and seargents in robes but I am considering changing it to the whole army so I can say the bolt pistol, frag grenades, krak grenades, are under the robes. Fortunately I play with reasonable folks who just say yeah I know they have them or will let you say this commander has this ahead of the game as long as you don't go overboard. Wysiwyg is silly if you ask me unless you really dumb down the rules on things you can upgrade a bit and (gasp) provide everything in a box. They seem to be going that way with the DA codex but they still did not provide all the options on the DA sprues (although they are pretty decent compared to most).

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 23:11
It is clear that most of Games Workshops costs stem from their shops. The question is do you think they would make more money without them in order to drop the prices of boxes or do you think a lack of stores would hurt them to the point of closure. I am undecided about that but since I visit my local GW to game regularly to game I do not want them to close their shops.

Oh and I do think that if you want to be cheesy you should pay for it. You can play perfectly good armies with what is in the box's (I do not want to see a second bloody asscannon in the termie box). If you want to play other games systems (which you clearly seem to want to do) then no one is stopping you. Have fun whatever you do.

It's a genuine case of rock and hard place.

Having the stores in the first place has given them what no other Fantasy or Sci-Fi Wargame Company has ever had, and thats High Street Presence. People can and often do just wander in off the street to see what it's all about, and the Stores are suitably stocked that, on a good day, said people can walk out with everything they need to get started.

But of course, they cost money. Thus, despite being the biggest Hobby Wargamers company by a long, long way (I was once given a figure of around 45% of the total market) there actual profits are surprisingly low. Take the Stores away, and you leave the games open to opposition, like PP and Rackham, and even worse, to the vagaries of Local Games Stores. After all, LGS are beyond reproach. If the Manager/Owner/Employee decides you game really sucks, he's not going to promote it at all, is he?

Is a weird one, but they need them to maintain the size they are, and it's only their sheer size thats keeping Wolf from Door at the moment.

Kaihlik
14-04-2008, 23:32
I agree Mad Doc. That is the reason I am willing to give GW more leaway than I normally would. They do make some horrendously bad decisions sometimes that begs the question of what kind of idiots are running the place. Oh well, I havn't bought anything in ages and my army is almost entierly WYSIWIG (totally if you dont require me to model on bolters, bolt pistols and chainswords, or heads, stupid Night Lord models) so I cant really complain.

goblinmedics
14-04-2008, 23:56
My main problem with this is that for every Plasma Gunner I want, I have to order him with a Melta guy for twelve bucks a pop. Ridiculous.

Stormhammers
15-04-2008, 01:29
I agree Mad Doc. That is the reason I am willing to give GW more leaway than I normally would. They do make some horrendously bad decisions sometimes that begs the question of what kind of idiots are running the place. Oh well, I havn't bought anything in ages and my army is almost entierly WYSIWIG (totally if you dont require me to model on bolters, bolt pistols and chainswords, or heads, stupid Night Lord models) so I cant really complain.

seconded. I'm using the old metal cadians, so conversions (some, very hard I might add) are simply a fact of life for me.

Templar Ben
15-04-2008, 01:47
Take the Stores away, and you leave the games open to opposition, like PP and Rackham, and even worse, to the vagaries of Local Games Stores. After all, LGS are beyond reproach. If the Manager/Owner/Employee decides you game really sucks, he's not going to promote it at all, is he?

Perhaps GW could make game systems that would be so strong that they can compete against PP without having to hide in their own stores? That is the big problem that you see in the US. There are not that many GW stores and so when you see a GW game it is on the shelf next to PP or even WizKids or WotC. Price draws most to prepaints but those that ask about rules are never told to pick up GW. I know I would have never started playing GW games if I hadn't taken a job that put me so close to a Bunker. Not because the GW games were that good but that is the only game there was around there. Then again in the last 6 months the growth has been in WotC (Star Wars Legends) and Warmachine.

From the point of view of the manager, if he is carrying GW and PP why would he promote one over the other? I can only think of two reasons. The first is because one offers a much higher profit margin. The other is because one is truly a better game. GW could address both of those.

WLBjork
15-04-2008, 07:19
How many LGS have the display space to show off all of GWs toys though?

Even GW can't do that, even with their stores 100% dedicated to their own products.

PS. Templar Ben, where did you get those figures from? They aren't the most recent (are they 2005/2006?)

Ahh, the 2006/2007 financial statement, bit easier to read than the summary linked by MDG: http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/consolidatedincomestatement.aspx.

So, gross is just under 70%, but high operating expenses cut into profit again.

Out of interest, would VAT be calculated before or after the Gross?

shabbadoo
15-04-2008, 08:24
GW trimmed some major corporate fat over the last few years, and that will certainly help. There was a lot of dead weight and over expenditure in the US, and GW properly pruned back their managerial tree in a major way. Most of the GW stores, at least in the US, are dead weight. These stores used to be in malls where there was high street presence, but at the cost of exorbitant rents. At least they cashed in on LotR while they were in such locations. As it was before LotR, GW doesn't have much of any street presence in the US now; no more then the local FLGSs. GW could cut the cost of running stores and just let the FLGSs do it, and they've been doing it well since the beginning of things. The FLGSs are the reason why GW became as big as it has, not because of GW stores. Hmmm.. Maybe there is lesson in that somewhere…

Of course, GW then turned on and obliterated many of the FLGSs in the UK at least(not sure if that is hurting them now or not), but in the US this was never the case. For now, GW US merely has the habit of somehow "guessing" which FLGSs are the most prosperous with regard to GW product sales, and then, just be chance, happen to open a GW store within 5 miles of them(and often closer). You'd almost think that GW had access to those FLGSs' sales records(based on the stock they order) and are making business decisions using this inside information(which is illegal in the US, but nobody is willing to call them on it with a nice class-action lawsuit). Even still, having such locations is not really helping them at all, as most FLGSs almost always immediately go to selling their GW product at 20% off(which is the limit set under their contract with GW, plus occasional sales for even more off) when a GW store opens this close to them, and it also serves to engender ill will towards GW to boot. I’ve seen this happen many times now, so it is no mere coincidence, and the results have been similar across the board. Brilliant business move guys.

Many general hobby shops(and some FLGSs) could promote gaming better, but not all of them have such a huge focus on GW games. General hobby stores do it all, and even though they may sell as much GW as any gaming store, GW isn’t the big piece of their profit pie. R/C and general models(military and car models) kick GW’s butt hands down in shops that emphasize them. But the important thing is, such shops still do as well as the other guys with regards to selling GW products, and that makes such a general hobby store a viable account for GW to have.

The more important thing to me at least is that GW seems to be making some improvements in things, but of course it is taking place at a snail’s pace. The model lines are being filled in or updated slowly but surely. The more time that has passed, the more kits have been going plastic as the resources to do so are invested in more and more and therefore the option to do so becomes more available. I have more of an issue with models being available/easily acquired than anything else. So long as there is steady improvement in this regard, I’ll stick with GW’s games. Regardless of any complaints about rules editions, rules changes, or what have you, the games are still fun to play.

shabbadoo
15-04-2008, 08:31
I think they should at least have 4 or 5 weapon sprues like a couple of small marine cc sprues with lightning claws and other items on it.

That would solve nothing. Then you'd just have people saying "I need four pairs of lightning claws to do up my Space Marine army just right, but those GW bastards are FORCING me to buy 4 sprues full of crap that I don't want! Why can't they just make a sprue with ALL lightning claws! Damn! Oh, and a sprue of ONLY lascannons, and a sprue of ONLY missile launchers, and a sprue of ONLY plasma cannons, and a spure of ONLY...", ad infinitum.

You just know it would happen. :D

I think GW has drawn the line in the sand in just about the right place.

AmKhaibitu
15-04-2008, 08:59
A sprue of only rending ponies perhaps?

Bookwrak
15-04-2008, 11:34
I don't think anyone has answered the point - is there anywhere that says a unit of genestealers where only three have implant or feeder tendril heads doesn't meet the standards of WYSIWYG? I suppose the problem is since it's not a rule, the people throwing their hands up in the air and running in circles since they can't include ever precise detail on each individual model and therefore can't use them are just as valid in their interpretation as saying 'see those three guys with the gooey tongues? Tells you this whole unit has acid maw.' With genestealers in particular, if it were possible to mix and match the upgrades, then precise WYSIWYG would be an issue, but since you can't, it's not.

Kaihlik
15-04-2008, 12:04
I kind of wish they would do upgrade boxes like the BT one which gives you a bunch of parts to help model your army like special weapons and the like. Would be interesting but I dont see it happening. I do agree the Genestealer thing is annoying but if that was the case then I would agree the 3 you get would be enough. Its a very easy one to rationalise too as doesn't it pass on to nearby squads as well (cant actually rememeber) so it would easy to say that the ones who have it are passing on the ability to ones that dont.

Victomorga
15-04-2008, 14:36
IMHO,

if they don't give you what you need in a box, then the actual physical representation on the model isn't required (within reason).

a genestealer brood with a few models representing a trait, or even just distinctly modelled (i.e. "the guys with the red stripe down their backs have acid maw") should be fine.

the real problem is more with things like winged tyranid warriors, which they flat-out don't even make parts for. I know there are a dozen models you can take wings from, and I know that there are FW bits, but screw that. I bought the tyranid warriors, I ought to be able to assemble them and play them according to their codex rules without buying ridiculously over-priced resin bits or some other kit I don't even want.

I totally agree with the argument above about people complaining no matter what, and someone will inevitably be bitching that they can't build 4 lascannons from one devastator box, but not even making pieces for a standard codex upgrade / piece of equipment? no excuse for that.

DSwede
15-04-2008, 16:58
Yeah you just need to apply some sense to it in my opinion. For example if a whole squad of Harlequins have the kiss, I don't expect my opponent to have 6 models with only two model variations (the only models that exist with the kiss). If the whole squad has something, it's easy to remember. Now if only 4 clowns have the kiss in the army list and only two models have them visible, then it becomes a bit of an issue as it's really hard to keep track of. At that point, different paint schemes, or models with a fusion pistol that counts as a kiss would make it easier but you would still have to ask your opponent as it's another thing he has to remember while playing.

Clausewitz
15-04-2008, 17:52
With regards to the wysiwyg question, we can see some effort, and therefore ability, with regards to the Black Templar add-on sprue. Would it be totally out of the question to do this with other armies, but simply have 'Weapon Boxes' or 'Mutation Boxes' or something for each army? Wouldn't require them to make or model many new sprues (I don't think...) and would therefore keep the costs down while adding more variety and therefore profit to the lines.

One variation box with weapons or mutations or what have you per race/chapter/regiment etc could work wonders, no? Just take the Black Templars as the example!

Victomorga
15-04-2008, 18:35
I think the idea is that "bits packages" are going to fill this role, although when GW will get that together is anyone's guess.

as the expression goes: wish in one hand, ***** in the other, and see which one fills up first.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-04-2008, 18:50
I'm sure the bitz packages will come along fine.. just like the 'new' chaos warrior halberd sprue we were supposed to see shortly after the new warriors came out with storm of chaos.

Eldoriath
15-04-2008, 18:54
Chaos terminators, doesnt come with any combi-plasma. Two sprues compared to the loyalists assault terminators which comes with 3½ sprue. You think they could have put in at least 2 of every combi-weapon type in their box and not completely leave out the plasma, right?

AmKhaibitu
15-04-2008, 19:04
so Eloriath, combi-grenades and combi-stakes?

At the least 1 of each non-combi bolter that are supported by chaos :p

LususNaturae
15-04-2008, 19:08
agreed.

don't know if it's been mentioned (i'm at work and don't have time to read the whole thread) but please, I would like enough rending claws in my warrior boxes to outfit more than just one model without having to steal (crappier) claws from my genestealer boxes.

Many thanks to the red shirt at my lgs who always finds them in the store bits box and saves them for me :D

Templar Ben
16-04-2008, 01:06
How many LGS have the display space to show off all of GWs toys though?

Do they need to show all of GW's toys? They just need room to show the boxes that people in their area want. If they are worth the money then they will move. The store owner only gets money when the product goes out the door. That is why many FLGS still carry GW even though they bad mouth the company and try to talk new people from picking it up. GW would sell and it would help pay the bills so they would still carry it.


Even GW can't do that, even with their stores 100% dedicated to their own products.

Again, why do they need to do so? Stores normally can't stock all of WotC products either.


PS. Templar Ben, where did you get those figures from? They aren't the most recent (are they 2005/2006?)

Ahh, the 2006/2007 financial statement, bit easier to read than the summary linked by MDG: http://investor.games-workshop.com/latest_results/Results2007/full_year/consolidatedincomestatement.aspx.

So, gross is just under 70%, but high operating expenses cut into profit again.

Out of interest, would VAT be calculated before or after the Gross?

It is the GW2006 Full Year. I used that as it was less confusing since GW turned a profit. VAT is a tax.

Taken from the statement

Revenue, which excludes value added tax and sales between group companies, represents the invoiced value of goods and services
supplied. So VAT is not included in revenue even though those costs are simply passed to the customer. Corporate taxes are near the bottom between EBIT (Earning Before Interest and Taxes) and Net Income.


With regards to the wysiwyg question, we can see some effort, and therefore ability, with regards to the Black Templar add-on sprue. Would it be totally out of the question to do this with other armies, but simply have 'Weapon Boxes' or 'Mutation Boxes' or something for each army? Wouldn't require them to make or model many new sprues (I don't think...) and would therefore keep the costs down while adding more variety and therefore profit to the lines.

One variation box with weapons or mutations or what have you per race/chapter/regiment etc could work wonders, no? Just take the Black Templars as the example!

I think having upgrade sprues would be a wonderful way to address the loss of bits. People would gladly pay $10 for the sprues. Then again I don't understand why you can't still bits order the existing sprues.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-04-2008, 02:15
Chaos terminators, doesnt come with any combi-plasma. Two sprues compared to the loyalists assault terminators which comes with 3½ sprue. You think they could have put in at least 2 of every combi-weapon type in their box and not completely leave out the plasma, right?


so Eloriath, combi-grenades and combi-stakes?

At the least 1 of each non-combi bolter that are supported by chaos :p

My main problem with the chaos terminator box is ironically not the 'lack of upgrade equipment'... It's a lack of basic equipment. As a thousand sons player I'm offended that the box doesn't include enough power weapons and basic bolter-bolter combi-weapons to equip every terminator. I'm stuck with a useless power fist, chain fist, reaper AC, combi-melta, and combi-flamer in every box.

AmKhaibitu
16-04-2008, 05:33
Well Rioghan, you're in luck, all those items you listed are equipment you can use in your army.
You want to pretend to have rubrics, you can, but you're going to have to go out of your way for it. There's just no major reason to limit things.

Rioghan Murchadha
16-04-2008, 15:25
Well Rioghan, you're in luck, all those items you listed are equipment you can use in your army.
You want to pretend to have rubrics, you can, but you're going to have to go out of your way for it. There's just no major reason to limit things.

How is that limiting anything? I'm pretty sure the loyalist termi box allows you to equip all your terminators with storm bolters and power fists...

It's a sad day when a plastic kit doesn't contain enough parts to do up all the models with their basic kit. Regardless of whether I'm playing pretend rubrics, what if I don't WANT to upgrade my terminators? What if I don't like being I1 with a powerfist or chainfist? What if I just don't want to pay the extra points so I can fit more stuff in my army?

I'd dearly like to know how many other sets out there you can name where you don't get enough components to make all models in the box bog standard...