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Marwynn
12-04-2008, 05:30
I'm worried a bit about this matchup, generally speaking what can the High Elves use (without resorting to a 'cheese' list) to take on a mostly cavalry Bretonnian list?

There's the RBT which could probably take down a few knights here and there. March blocking with the Eagle too, but what about the Pegasus Knights?

The Phoenix Guard is what I'm leaning on here, being Fear-causers there'd be a Ld check to charge into them and their Ward saves could withstand the charge. Plus their attacks would be S5.

Any tips and ideas would be great here. I have no solid lists yet, but I'd like to hear general approaches and counters.

Xyon
12-04-2008, 06:24
(phoenix guard would be S4 just thought you should know)

Similar strategies for good list building in general can help you with this. Eagles for march blocking, RBT to try and weaken their ranks. If your opponent is weak on magic you can take good advantage of this.

So basically, look for something stubborn that can hold them up for a crippling counter charge. White Lions and big blocks of spearmen under the stubborness spell can hold up the brets and even do some damage to them as they would strike first.

Then counter charge next turn if you lose (and you should probably be able to not break due to being stubborn)
Good counter charges are Dragon Princes, Lion Chariot, Swordmasters.

I suppose phoenix guard would be a good tarpit too under the stubborness spell, just that you would not get as many as spearmen, but they would survive alot longer.

You could also consider equipping a commander in a unit of silverhelms as a good character killer to go after a mage or paladin that is inside a unit to help take away some of their armies effectivness and make your magic better.

R Man
12-04-2008, 07:15
Xyon's advice is pretty good. However just watch out for a unit of skirmishing archers. They will be very cheap but surprisingly deadly against elves.

I recomend that you give one of you combat characters the Blade of Sea Gold. Without armour Knights are not to hard to kill and it can tip a combat.

And isn't there a spell that gives a unit a +5 ward save? It would be a good idea to cast this on WL or Spear elves that are about to be charged.

Actually I have a question. Which is a better 'road block' unit for knights: Phoenix Guard or White Lions? WL are stubborn and can kill a few before they take damage, but PG are less frail with their ward save. Then again PG can be made stubborn on LD9, while WL can also get a ward save to gain more durability. So which would be better?

speedygogo
12-04-2008, 07:16
You will only have until turn 2 before the Brets are into Hth. Lion Chariots will work well but you will need shooting. Just the volume of wounds that a multiple Bret lance charges will kill the Phoenix Guard pretty quickly.

Lord_Byron
12-04-2008, 07:19
Multi shooting eagle claw bolt throwers are great for dropping all flavors of brets. They're armor piercing and strong, but not strong enough to provoke 5+ ward saves. Definitely range or mage those pegasus knights.

A dragon or two would probably be pretty good.

Don't be afraid to flee. You're not the one losing the blessing if you do. Elves have great leadership to rally with and some clever fleeing can leave you in a better position than you started in.

Try this...

Bring a unit of reavers and throw them directly in front of the bret's hardest combat unit. The knights will charge, unless they want to sit there looking at elves or spend 2 turns going around. When they charge, flee with the reavers. Hopefully the knights will catch them, which would be a 'completed' charge so they will move their full distance and be in a ripe position for retaliatory charges. Bret knights are nothing without the charge. If the reavers get away, rally and use their fast cav ability to move them back in front of the knights. Pure comedy gold.

Kloud13
12-04-2008, 07:37
If there a Pegasus Knights, Don't feel bad about any cheese in your list, because the stench of a Pegasus Knight is far greater than anything you can pull. but multishot them with a Bolt Thrower, make sure they take a panic test, and because they usually run up a flank, they are really close to that nearest board edge.

Kloud13
12-04-2008, 07:39
For Magic, I'd go with High Magic vs most armies, however, VS Bretonians, Get a Mage with Lore of Metal. Even better if he can choose his spells instead of rolling.

Kloud13
12-04-2008, 07:46
Dragons are Great vs Bretonians. They allow you to turn the tables somewhat on the Pegasus Knights (The Hunters become the Hunted), The Terror can do some cool things. and he can be really good should your opponent take the Green Knight, provided your Prince has a Magic Weapon. (If he takes Green Knight, Remember that his General is only a Hero level character, and Thus his Leadership is a little lower, Great for Terror.)

Also, if a Character in his army seems to be trying a little hard to get into combat with the Dragon. There is a thing that the Brets can do to give a Character the ability to Killing Blow anything, Including a Dragon.

sulla
12-04-2008, 13:29
Don't forget a pair of eagles either. On the turn before he charges, plonk them in front of two or his strongest lances but 1 inch away and on a 45 degree angle, thus taking them out of the game for a turn either while they try to shoot/magic the eagles or when they charge and get diverted away from your units by the sacrifice of the brave, stupid bird...

_Lucian_
12-04-2008, 14:05
I agree with Kloud: Lvl 2 mage, Seer staff and Powerstone, chose Furnance and melt them.

Marwynn
12-04-2008, 14:05
Ahh thanks for the replies all!

So the real counter to the Brets is to march block and redirect as many as possible. That's about the only thing I was thinking of doing.

Still undecided between the White Lions and the Phoenix Guard. Can the Brets easily charge Fear-causing units? I know hoping for a failed check isn't really the way to win a fight, but throwing up an annoyance may be good.

Multi-shooting RBTs was also another good counter.

Thanks all.

Kloud13
12-04-2008, 15:34
Also, don't forget, should a unit;

a) turn down a challenge
b) flee from combat
c) flee a charge
d) flee period

That unit LOSES the Blessing of the Lady. That means no more Ward save.

Gimp
12-04-2008, 15:40
Your best list should include

A Dragon wither a prince or a dragon mage

And 2 mages (both level 2 or 1 level 4 if ont take a prince)

Some white lions and bolt throwers

SilverWarlock
12-04-2008, 16:45
I would suggest dragon princes, you can outcharge them, keep some bolt throwers to force them to come forward, then charge them

brets are very much weakened if they cant get the charge, and multiple units of dragon princes forces them to either stay back and get shot, or take the charge.

Tyrannoc chariots can do the same thing. To actually break them add a character in your units, and they should die fast.

_Lucian_
12-04-2008, 18:40
Dargon Princes have the same charge range as bret knights. So cant outcharge. (you must be thinking they still count as ithilmar steed, which is no longer the case)

Brets deal with fear cauing units pretty well imo with enough items/unts having re-rolls agains them)

sulla
12-04-2008, 21:14
Still undecided between the White Lions and the Phoenix Guard. Can the Brets easily charge Fear-causing units? I know hoping for a failed check isn't really the way to win a fight, but throwing up an annoyance may be good.


Definately the white lions in terms of in game effectiveness. Phoenix guard can be made to work but generally need a hero in them with a GW for that IMO.

White lions rely on killing high value targets and have stubborn to fall back on.

Phoenix guard kill very little with only 1 s4 attack. They rely on failed charges and making ward saves to prevent droves dieing from enemy attacks. They are just not as reliable as white lions.

Marwynn
13-04-2008, 01:51
Interesting stuff guys.

Typically do Bret armies have a lot of Magic defense? I was thinking of going for the Lore of the Beasts and just make their steeds cower.

A lot of White Lion fans and I am one of those too. Do you guys use them in the 7-wide units and just maneuver them around?

Also what about lower point games? Like say 1000-1500. I'll be able to field one Great Eagle and 1 RBT and I still intend to use Shadow Warriors and maybe an Ellyrian Reaver unit. I'll have plenty of march blocking and redirecting (also warmachine hunting) but maybe not enough killing.


(Related question to RBTs - It says they get -2 to armour saves, does that already factor in the S4?)

DragonPup
13-04-2008, 01:58
Against Brets, the Knights will likely be 3 wide, so 7 wide means 2 Lions are not attacking.

As for the RBT multishot, it gives a -1 to armor because of it being S4, and another -1 because it's awesome. And while people just say it's Armor Piercing for simplicity, it isn't, and thus unaffected by the Rain Lord.

TheSanityAssassin
13-04-2008, 14:15
Try this...

Bring a unit of reavers and throw them directly in front of the bret's hardest combat unit. The knights will charge, unless they want to sit there looking at elves or spend 2 turns going around. When they charge, flee with the reavers. Hopefully the knights will catch them, which would be a 'completed' charge so they will move their full distance and be in a ripe position for retaliatory charges. Bret knights are nothing without the charge. If the reavers get away, rally and use their fast cav ability to move them back in front of the knights. Pure comedy gold.

Works very well for me. Hell, I'll charge the Brets...my charge is longer than theirs (Tiranoc Chariots also work well for this), and if I hit them, I can usually hold them for a turn if they don't have their lance bonus. And keeping a block of them stuck for a turn goes a long way towards securing a flank.

If you want to get really nasty (I like this one), hide a cheap character with a minor magic weapon on an unbarded steed in the unit. Then suddenly that 18" charging little squad can dish out the hurt to the Bret cav units, making them think twice as to flee or not....

fubukii
13-04-2008, 17:37
star dragons (ouchies)
Lore of metal mages (more ouchies :P)
White lions ( good hitters + stubborn)
Phoeniox guard (can live through the charge to setup a flank for you)
Eagles ( redirect those lances so you can flank)
RBT ( hopefully whittle a few knights down before you get charged)

THese are all effective units to take.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
13-04-2008, 18:29
I own my brettonian friend all the time.. I will try to send some of the reasons why he gets owned across. Although he is a poor tactician admittedly. Brettonia is a one hit wonder army. They get their charge they win combat and they run you down. A key is to prolong the combat.. Do not let them crunch you on the charge. Eagles can slow them down and even hunt out any spellcasters. Scouts can own treb crew and also march block. Dragon princes are as fast as he is; but better. I like putting a mounted bsb with a lance and battle banner in that unit. It steam rolls everything. (except grailies:() Taking phoenix guard and white lions is effective. Phoenix guard cause fear and have great survivability. WIth Korhil in the unit they will never run. White lions with command and a champion with gem of courage. Then he wins first combat, you use the gem and you dont run because you are stubborn. For his foot troops you can use spearmen anda lion chariot. The chariot looks awesome and steams down things like men at arms. RBT are good, that goes without saying. A l4 caster with seerstaff and lore of metal. Give him folariaths robes so he is essentially invincible. Take another character maybe with a bound spell the ring of corin. This will trickle his dispel pool. You could always go dragon on him. Lord on star dragon with blade of sea gold should do the trick. Bait him too. Let him declare a charge on a weaker unit that you can use as bait. then flee as a charge reponse. then hit him with your cavalry and smash his flanks into the mud. Swordmasters are good but they are not stubborn and have no survivability against bret arrows or lances. They would be great bait; once you have him locked in combat hit him with freshly rallied and ready swordmasters. those are some thoughts that come to mind:) Good luck

unforgiven555
13-04-2008, 19:26
Typically do Bret armies have a lot of Magic defense?

Typically a Bretonnian player will only take a scroll caddy, relying on numbers and the blessing to see them through (which it quite often does). RBT will deal about one casualty per, focus on a set unit. PK will take most of them out by the 2nd or third turn. A Bretonnian player's biggest problem is a lord on a dragon. Being able to flank, cause rank bonus.. and prevent them from being charged - as well being incredibly hard to kill, causes insane amounts of troubles for a Bretonnian player. In addition - being a HE means you have access to better magic items than the Bret player, at a discounted price, meaning your lord on a dragon will be significantly better than his lord on a hypogryff (should he take one). FYI, the blessing will apply to any mounts the characters take.

Infantry are almost never a problem for Bretonnians - the exception to this rule lies with Undead (which are unbreakable and can re-raise - thereby taking 2 or more lance charges and not breaking) and White lions which are stubborn, and at s6 tend to take out many knights before they can fight back.

Playing against the new HE I generally only have significant difficulties against lords on dragons and a white lion unit with Korhil. It should be noted that bretonnians out manouver your infantry by 8".. so they can simply move around them. Eagles are.. interesting, but generally defeated by pegasus knights. The games are, for the most part balanced. You might be better off to use fast calvary to redirect the bretonnian knights into the range of dragon princes (which are for the most part strictly superior).

Marwynn
14-04-2008, 04:37
Thanks a lot of the input guys, I guess I got too used to tarpits, handguns, and such that I worried a bit with the High Elves who can't be played like the Empire.

I'll rely more on march-blocking, redirecting, and so forth and pick them apart.

I guess I'll have to deal with having to kill an extra 33% for every unit.

Any thoughts for a specific counter to PKs at 1-1.5k games? I don't want to devote a Special Unit to guard the lone RBT I'll be fielding.

Moonblade
20-04-2008, 12:07
I'm a Bretonnian player, and I've done some matchups with High Elves. Here are my greatest problems which you can exploit:

1. High Elves ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST. Even when the Brets charge them, your units will attack first. Try using White Lions or Swordmasters to be a wall against their charge. They still strike first even when using Great Weapons.

2. Chariots charging the Knights' flank hurt so much. Not only that it deals great impact damage, only knights positioned on the side can counter-attack the Chariot.

3. Peggies are actually not that devastating. They're quick, of course, but being charged by them isn't as destructive as being charged by a band of 9 Knights of the Realm. That's the reason why Peggies, most of the time, target warmachines or archers. To counter this, I suggest putting some Swordmasters or White Lions around your long-range support. That way, they'll be thinking twice before charging because they can be charged back right away.

Lord Raneus
20-04-2008, 13:51
As was said, multi-shooting RBTs are great. Handgunners are super-effective against Brets because they give a -2 to armor save but don't provoke a 5+ Ward. Take as many RBTs as possible, they will wreak absolute havoc.

Secondly, take advantage of your ASFing. Remember, if you kill the models in the front rank, lance formation doesn't help! They have to have an engaged knight in front of them to attack in lance formation!

exsulis
21-04-2008, 00:25
You might want to reread the lance rules, as it works just like a unit of spearmen/pikement in this regard.

You check to see if the model in front can attack before any model attacks. Since the HE go first they can wipe out the front rank but those models are engaged in combat, and thus the models behind them get to attack. If no model was engaged in combat then the HE can't attack them, and thus the knights wouldn't take any wounds(since they wouldn't be in combat). So the lance in that regard is unchanged but with ASF you can wipe out the front rank which does hurt a knight unit, depending on the unit you could cut them down to half str.

GrogsnotPowwabomba
21-04-2008, 11:40
Bring a unit of reavers and throw them directly in front of the bret's hardest combat unit. The knights will charge, unless they want to sit there looking at elves or spend 2 turns going around. When they charge, flee with the reavers. Hopefully the knights will catch them, which would be a 'completed' charge so they will move their full distance and be in a ripe position for retaliatory charges. Bret knights are nothing without the charge. If the reavers get away, rally and use their fast cav ability to move them back in front of the knights. Pure comedy gold.

As a Dark Elf player, I can attest that this is one of the best ways to defeat Brettonnians. Just be sure that the Reavers are angled so that the Brettonian knights move to a ripe counter-charge position when they charge.

SilentStalker
27-04-2008, 16:31
I found that the Creeping Death spell works wonders against knights. 3d6 no armour saves??? ableit at str 1, but its a lot easier to cast than the other spells like furnace, (casting on a 6+), and there are some very usefull spells in Shadow versus brets as well. Pit of shades can usually take out a few knights, Unseen Lurker can give you that unexpected charge to take the initiative, and the ability to make units cause fear? or even terror??? take an archmage with Seer Staff and whatever peaks your fancy, and it might help a lot.

505
28-04-2008, 03:01
things to kill Brets

RBT
lionguard (keep them in woods and charge out)
swordmasters (but in this case I would use Lionguard or give them banner of ellyron)
Phoenix guard will hold for a while
the banner that adds d-6 combat res
mages with lore of metal :D
dragon princes

TheDudeGuyMan
28-04-2008, 07:08
How to beat Brets every time: white lions, white lions, white lions, more white lions and a BSB. When the Brets charge you, you hack them up pretty good since you strike first, then they attack you, and in turn hack you up pretty good, but then you don't flee because you're stubborn, and Brets without their +2 strength bonus from lances are nothing, they can't hurt a fly, so you flank charge those punks and mess them up!

Although I HATE the RBT (they suck, normally, I feel), I'd actually suggest using it in this circumstance, because it might actually make its point back, if you use the multi-shot, since it it won't activate the 5+ word and it's armor piercing.

CHOOBER SNIPES
28-04-2008, 23:37
Other than the stubborn infantry with support ideas, i would suggest out cavalrying them. With Reavers you can easily outmaneuver them. Dragon princes combined with strong magic can get off charges (unseen lurker) and without the charge bret knights are worse than usual knights in that they have only three attacking back. I would suggest moving up first turn so you have options. If you wait for the enemy cav you can be backed into a corner/have no option but to take the charge. If you use lik 5 units of 5 naked dragon princes, you can beat them. You have the hitting power to hurt them bad, and you have the number of units to get the charge off on them. if you move up first turn, you can just flee the charge with DP's, then hit them with another unit. Even with Reavers, if you hit a Bret lance in the flank, you will maybe even win, or at least hold the unit for a couple rounds of combat. also great eagles are great.