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AllisterCaine
12-04-2008, 19:12
Just asking for opinions here. So Ive been trying to use the ac's for my ig balanced list and they are just not working out. a fire support team of 3 auto cannons seems...useless. They can rarely damage a tank, good vs transports, bad against just about everything else. High S and low AP just dont mix. infantry or elites usually shrug off the wound or theres too many of them to matter, tanks usually have AV13 which you would need a 6 with the ac to get a glance. Transports are some obvious choices but even then at av12 and 11 its a tough nut. So what ARE they good against?

Kurisu313
12-04-2008, 19:31
Well, i think they work well in infantry squads where they drop one shot over a heavy bolter, but still make a good anti-infantry gun, which can respond to heavier threats when needed.

As a fire support team? Dunno, work okay for me, depending on opponent. Against tau, they're good at armour busting fire warriors, can hurt all the tanks, and two shots makes me feel happier than one.

However, support teams are best as HB's, Lascannons or mortars. I usually take anti-tank teams and put my HB's and Auto's in my infantry squads combined with a plasma gun.

Son of Makuta
12-04-2008, 19:34
Autocannons? They're a balanced weapon. Like you say they're good against transports; they have the same damage output as a lascannon against Wave Serpents and other AV12 skimmers, for example, and beat the las against AV10-11. Two shots counts for a lot. For a start, on average, you'll hit once with an autocannon, whereas you need two lascannons to "guarantee" (in math-hammer terms) a hit.

I personally find, as an opponent of many an autocannon/missile pod toting army and personal lover of venom cannons, that they are a more than decent weapon and despite their lack of AP2 (which is the lascannon's real strength - killing MCs) they can plonk a few wounds on a Tyrant/Carnifex/Wraithlord/whatever simply by your opponent fortuitously failing armour saves; it does happen. There's a reason, and a good one, why the Fireknife is the most feared and the most often-used Tau Crisis configuration.

Autocannons are also not quite wasted if you don't have vehicles to shoot at and instead have to target infantry. They're excellent against Tyranid Warriors and similar nasties, and can vapourise Raveners easily.

That help?

PS. "Yeh know me too well, Rebald. I shouldn't've thought you'd take me to a place devoid of the essentials."

Bloodknight
12-04-2008, 20:07
I like them as fire support teams because they outrange heavy bolters (ie, they reach further than the enemy heavy bolters/equivalents) and so do not get shot up by the enemy so fast. They are actually not much worse than heavy bolters when shooting at marines, trading one shot, but getting 2+ to wound instead of 3+ (3HB: 9 Shots, 4.5 hits, 3 wounds vs. 6 shots, 3 hits, probably all wounds) and being able to hurt vehicles up to AV13.

See my sig, I always want more of them ;)

marv335
12-04-2008, 20:10
well they're great for popping landspeeders
I love the autocannon. the extra range and strength more than makes up for the one less shot

Triggerdog
12-04-2008, 20:18
Autocannons are ideal in the following roles:

-long range fire support: 48" range means you can reach out and touch alot of the table
-Monstrous creatures: They generally have good armor saves but if you just slap them around with waves of fire for a couple turns its bound to do something.
-Tau: Tough 3 and the basis of most armies being tied up in 4+ saves mean autocannons hurt. Try ripping them into Ethereal honor guard squads for tons of fun.
-shoot them at an IG regimental command squad

Isambard
12-04-2008, 20:36
Do you play against any Eldar players often, specifically Mech Eldar players?

I would guess no, as if you did you would think the Auto Cannon was the Emperor's personal gift to you.

Col.Gravis
12-04-2008, 20:48
Autocannons are my Command Squads Heavy Weapon of choice, I use them mainly for targettting enemy light tanks, walkers and transports, these are typiclly AV10-12 which S7 is quite capable of dealing with. That free's up Lascannons for dealing with tougher targets, possibly allowing you to take less of them and thus saving points, now sure you can say Missile Launchers are better for the job with S8, but it's always worth keeping in mind they only have one shot to the Autocannons two - handy considering the lowly Guard BS.

Archangel_Ruined
12-04-2008, 21:12
They're a hit and miss weapon, they excell against tau and eldar, not so great vs orks or marines. I'd say take heavy bolters or missile launchers in an all comers list. That said, missile launchers are something of a no brainer in the kill anything and everything role.

Chem-Dog
12-04-2008, 21:32
Just because it needs 6's to glance an Armour 13 Vehicle, don't let it stop you trying, the 6 is just as likely to come up as any other number ;) let your enemy underestimate your weapons.

GMillar
12-04-2008, 23:51
Against mechanized SoB's, using autocannons almost feels like cheating.

The_Outsider
13-04-2008, 00:07
The autocannon is the workhorse of the IG - long range, multiple shot and mid strength.

I would always include autocannon - it greatly helps by reducing down the number of anti-tank weapons you need (as it can kill light/medium tanks) while also remaining a horde slayer.

Zagstruk
13-04-2008, 02:35
I love Auto cannons, in fact, they are the only weapon you'll find in my guard army's standard squads. the reasons have already been laid out a number of times, but I'd like to add that they really excel against Necrons as well, especially Destroyers, Scarabs, and Immortals.

ehlijen
13-04-2008, 03:23
Points for effect, they are the best weapon against the new deamon princes. Just strong enough to wound on 2s and fast enough to ensure a save roll to be made every turn per AC (as sure as things get in a dice universe). Eventually they'll got through.

sigur
13-04-2008, 03:27
For me, it's mostly about the range. 48" compared to the Heavy Bolter's 36" is a very important advantage on standard boards and popping transports isn't the worst thing you can do. Apart from that, ACs are just cool as a mental image. Have a look at the IG tactica for more elaborate information on the auto cannon.

Johnnyfrej
13-04-2008, 03:32
I love my Autocannons, but I only use them in Fire Support Squads or with my command squads. The 48'' range is wasted in a normal Guardsmen squad. Give them Camoline Cloaks and Sharpshooting and plop them in a building or on a hill(with cover) and laugh as you can usually shoot anywhere and will be dead hard to kill with return fire (usually at least a 4+ cover save w/ Camoline).

onnotangu
13-04-2008, 03:39
they work great against orks.
orks don't mostly have anything lower than a 4+ except cyborks and mega armour nobs.
they work well against eldar tau, other guard, and pretty much anything not space marines

shabbadoo
13-04-2008, 04:44
And they blast Ork vehicles(AV 10 or 11 usually) to scrap too. Perhaps you just need to take a few more autocannons than you are. Fire support and HQ squads is the perfect place for them. They are also good on Sentinels who have the movement capability to get on that tasty side armor of 11 or 12 that most tanks have. Besides, regular IG squads will end up closer to the enemy anyways, so put a meltagun in squads here and there, just to keep enemy armor honest. All in all, the autocannon is a very versatile, yet underrated weapon that works well against most armies. The 48" range and multiple shots autocannons offer is really the most important thing about them.

Snorphel
13-04-2008, 17:19
Discussion is mainly about IG - but marines can also field a few.

I especially like the twin linked autocannon on a dreadnought with a missile launcher - it 'fits' perfectly between the frag and krak options of the launcher - making it a decent tank hunter and an excellent infantry killer.
The fact that the range of both weapons is comparable also helps - and nobody can blame you for using yet another assault cannon.

They are great weapons - but don't rely on them to blow up heavy armour. (Only shoot at AV 12, 13 if there are no other things to shoot at, or if the situation is dire.)

freddythebig
13-04-2008, 17:39
I like autocannons on my sentinals, move and shoot plus the 48" range can help to keep them alive a little bit longer.

Fay_Redd
13-04-2008, 17:48
they are good against T4 T5 enemies with 4+ save or less, well and light armour Av10 and 11 are easilly dealt with, they are a situated weapon that has its days then dosnt. if its possible i wouldnt go for an entire unit of AC's, try 2 AC's and a Las-Cannon or sommthing.

Maxis Lithium
13-04-2008, 18:06
ACs are going to be more prevalent in the coming years I suspect. With the rise of the new Ork and Eldar Dex's being both competitive and popular, we are going to see more light AV vehicles, and 4+ armour targets. In my guard, I intend on having a unit of them available for anti-hoard work instead of Heavy Bolters, because anything I need HBs against, I can use Las-rifles against as well.

Hicks
13-04-2008, 18:15
I have just recently started to use ACs (curses GW for not making some for the steel legion), but so far I like them a lot. I play against Orks, Tau, WH, Chaos and DE, they all relly on transports and ACs are great at killing them.

fwacho
14-04-2008, 03:07
I think the poster underestimates the wonderfulness of geting rid of a transport reliably. popping light vehicles is a major necessity in my gaming group. also not many Sm equivs around me.

Coragus
14-04-2008, 05:29
I had good success with an autocannon fire support squad against a Chaos Marine squad. They were good support for units in front of them. Put the sharpshooters on them and they force a lot of armor saves.

Sgt Biffo
14-04-2008, 05:51
Against MEQ armies the Auto Canon can seem useless, though this is not always the case. Dreadnaughts and Landspeeders are targets of choice.

Against most alien races the Auto Canon is lethal! All my regular opponents who play Eldar, Orks and Tau have a grudging respect for the Auto Canon.

A single Fire Support Squad can pin down a mob of Killa Kanz for almost an entire game, stunning and knocking weapons off until they limp for cover.

The secret to Auto Canons is not waiting for your opponents to fall over at the first gust of automatic fire (as cool as that would be), but to add to the effect of other squads:

If you have some good shooting with an infantry squad- stick the boot in with the Auto Canons.

Immobilised a vehicle? Spray it with some Auto Canons for luck.

AllisterCaine
17-04-2008, 05:25
Well say im convinced they are useful, arnt the guard lacking in some mobility to use them well? Sentinels are hardly the best choice and hw weapon teams usually get caught up in one area. I know they are effective against transports but say a rhino, with an ac you need 4's and 4's...with a lascannon you need 4's and 2's, but only one shot. versitility is good and all but when you have the options of the lascannon, why go for the ac?

Bunnahabhain
17-04-2008, 09:22
Well say im convinced they are useful, arnt the guard lacking in some mobility to use them well? Sentinels are hardly the best choice and hw weapon teams usually get caught up in one area. I know they are effective against transports but say a rhino, with an ac you need 4's and 4's...with a lascannon you need 4's and 2's, but only one shot. versitility is good and all but when you have the options of the lascannon, why go for the ac?

15pts vs 25pts, that's why.
Lascannons are seriously expensive for the Guard, so if you can have an equally useful weapon, and save a lot of points...

Kurisu313
17-04-2008, 10:57
Well say im convinced they are useful, arnt the guard lacking in some mobility to use them well? Sentinels are hardly the best choice and hw weapon teams usually get caught up in one area. I know they are effective against transports but say a rhino, with an ac you need 4's and 4's...with a lascannon you need 4's and 2's, but only one shot. versitility is good and all but when you have the options of the lascannon, why go for the ac?

***Warning, stats alert***
At BS3, the chance of a lascannon causing a damaging hit on a rhino is 5/12. For the autocannon to cause AT LEAST ONE is 7/16, which is higher, and includes the possibility of two damaging hits (1/16). The autocannon is better up to AV11, and almost equal at AV12 (11/36 as opposed to 12/36)Also, an autocannon is more likely to glance a waveserpent than a lascannon, due to the lascannon being reduced to Str8.

You mention mobility as a problem, but how is that any different from a lascannon? They're both heavy and have a 48" range, so they're equal in that respect. When you consider that the autocannon is 15pts vs 25pts in a squad, it's far from useless.

It also depends somewhat on your opponent. Necrons can shrug it off, but most armies contain at least some target that's good for AC's, Orks, Tau and Tyranids particularly.

Malachai
17-04-2008, 10:59
Well say im convinced they are useful, arnt the guard lacking in some mobility to use them well? Sentinels are hardly the best choice and hw weapon teams usually get caught up in one area. I know they are effective against transports but say a rhino, with an ac you need 4's and 4's...with a lascannon you need 4's and 2's, but only one shot. versitility is good and all but when you have the options of the lascannon, why go for the ac?


I love the autocannon, all my platoons have them.
But another option is using a hardenend veterans squad with 3 plasmaguns and an autocannon. Hitting on 3's is nice.
The combination with the 3 plasmaguns makes an awesome space marines killer.

Mr Kibbles
17-04-2008, 11:36
I Like Autocannons cause of their versatility. Plus they look so cool.

boogle
17-04-2008, 12:12
I have Autocannons on my Sentinels primarily, but when i go back to Guard 9and i will go back), i'm going to play max AC/ML/GL/MM and min PG/LC as i always have done

Sgt Biffo
17-04-2008, 16:02
Well say im convinced they are useful, arnt the guard lacking in some mobility to use them well? Sentinels are hardly the best choice and hw weapon teams usually get caught up in one area. I know they are effective against transports but say a rhino, with an ac you need 4's and 4's...with a lascannon you need 4's and 2's, but only one shot. versitility is good and all but when you have the options of the lascannon, why go for the ac?***Warning, stats alert***
At BS3, the chance of a lascannon causing a damaging hit on a rhino is 5/12. For the autocannon to cause AT LEAST ONE is 7/16, which is higher, and includes the possibility of two damaging hits (1/16). The autocannon is better up to AV11, and almost equal at AV12 (11/36 as opposed to 12/36)Also, an autocannon is more likely to glance a waveserpent than a lascannon, due to the lascannon being reduced to Str8...

For all the failings of Mathammer, he's got a good point: There no point what the weapon is going to do to said armour if the weapon misses!:(

More shots increase the likelihood of a hit. All modern small arms/gunnery theory is based on this saturation principal (even sniper teams use multiple shooters in some instances these days!:wtf:)- and they wouldn't persist with it with out good reason... you'd hope any way.

Lord Cook
17-04-2008, 16:33
A useful and versatile weapon, particularly when you lack the points to buy both lascannons and heavy bolters. Perfect for destroying transports, and fast moving assault units are one of the Guards worst enemies, so killing transports is a must.

Duhgame
17-04-2008, 20:01
I prefer autocannons to missle launchers myself, more shots the better. While I lose the ability to hurt av 14 and scare 3+ sv armies, I find the extra shots do damage where it counts, and for the harder to kill targets I use lascannnons and earthshaker/demolisher shells in IG. I leave the missle launchers to my SM, since the tactical squads are already well rounded, I figure it works better for them to be more versatile per squad than my IG.

Just my 2 cents, I'm not sure how statistics play out the overall effectivness, but even if I was wrong I'd use them that way anyways because I like to.

razormasticator
17-04-2008, 21:04
My IG rock the Autocannons. I love em, they fit my army fluff and you have to love that extended range.

Sarlock
18-04-2008, 00:48
The one reason why I would go autocannons over heavy bolters is range

In a tournament where i used guard against eldar i got mashed by reapers who had 48inch range and had only 36inch range. I had to move and get shot at and lost whole squads just trying to get in range. Have even just 1 unit with an autocannon so you can take on things like reapers or devastators all with missile launchers/lascannons. otherwise your guard will be destroyed at range

starlight
18-04-2008, 01:12
Let's see why I prefer Autocannons...

Autocannon vs Lascannon - double the chances of hitting, cheaper, more effective against basically all but MEqs and AV14
Autocannon vs Heavy Bolter - 12" extra range, +2 Str

For the cost of two Lascannon AT Squads, I can have the same number of Autocannon Squads and a free Autocannon and two Grenade Launchers in the HQ Squad. :) Six Lascannon shots vs 14 Autocannon shots plus the Grenade Launchers? Yes please. :D

Given how good Blast weapons will be in 5th Ed, I'm happy that I've stuck with my ML/AC loadout for my IG. :)

AllisterCaine
18-04-2008, 01:24
Alright, so where do you put them? attachments to specific units for specific purpose? sentinels? HW platoons? putting it in a squad doesnt seem all that wise, the ac is average against infantry (you can only kill 1 most of the time...rarely 2), and not very good against vehicles. sentinels and hw squads sounds alright but how does putting them in an infantry squad make them more effective?

starlight
18-04-2008, 02:03
I have Autocannons in three places:

HQ FS Squads (plus HS if I'm going all Infantry and I have the points and Doctrines)
Sentinels
Chimera turrets (FW rules - *counts as* Heavy Bolter otherwise)

KrzyKanadian
18-04-2008, 03:03
To tell you the truth I've never really found use of them against any army except for against necron destroyers - but that's just lucky on my part. I found that using either lascannons only works best - you really want to specialize your weapons to either tank hunt or infantry kill because the medium strength is bad at vehicle armor penetration and the medium AP value does little against the most common armies - marines.

Gerrok
18-04-2008, 05:37
The way I include autocannons is in my fire support squads in my HQ command squad. Two squads of 3 autocannons can usually do the job in light vehicle hunting unless the game gets pretty big. The command HQ anti-tank squads is also the only place I usually put lascannons, and they're only there to take out the big nasties (Tyranid monsters, AV13-14 tanks, etc).

When I include sentinels I will generally kit them out with either auto cannons or lascannons, but I don't usually take a lot of sentinels because I like rough riders and hell hounds more.

In my infantry platoons it's usually all heavy bolters and missle launchers, because they're there to kill infantry.

Sgt Biffo
18-04-2008, 08:29
...you really want to specialize your weapons...

"Specialisation is for insects"
-Robert E. Heinlein.

Aleron
18-04-2008, 09:08
I find that autocannons can be effective against most vehicles if placed in a good position during deployment. Although weaker than lascannons in my experience they're much more likely to destroy the vehicle than a lascannon (which have an annoying tendancy miss whenever I aim them at something slightly important)
With guardsmen BS i always prefer to have extra shots over a better chance of destroying/killing a model

Kurisu313
18-04-2008, 09:16
Alright, so where do you put them? attachments to specific units for specific purpose? sentinels? HW platoons? putting it in a squad doesnt seem all that wise, the ac is average against infantry (you can only kill 1 most of the time...rarely 2), and not very good against vehicles. sentinels and hw squads sounds alright but how does putting them in an infantry squad make them more effective?

Well,first off, they're 5 pts cheaper in an infantry squad. I find that they work well combined with a plasma gun,for 3 Str 7 shots (4 at 12", but you'll fry the plasma gun, less of a problem in 5th ed). This strength isn't so high that it's a waste against infantry, and the plasma's AP helps with MEQ's and those 2+ saves. All those Str7 shots make the squad quite good at sniping Av10and Av11, and has a chance of nabbing an AV13 if you're desperate. Give the squad a monster and they'll hurt it, and as long as it isn't a T7 carnie or a C'tan, the lasguns can help too. (whenever I wound a hard target with a lasgun, I joke that I got it through the eye. This has resulted in a blind hive tyrant and avatar, heh heh) All this makes for quite a verstile squad.

An autocannon fire team has all these benefits more so, but is more fragile for having only 3 ablative shield.

I have a 10 sentinel formation (1 heavy flamer, 3 AC, 3 Lascannon, 3 Multi-las), but I never get good results, so I'm afraid I can't give you much help. Think of them as a mobile fire-team, and I think you won't go far wrong

EldarWolf
18-04-2008, 10:54
"Specialisation is for insects"
-Robert E. Heinlein.

Roughnecks ftw!

boogle
18-04-2008, 12:13
I concur with starlight, any place where you can have multiples of them is the best place, if you're willing to drop a Tank and Heavy Weapons Platoon with all AC and maybe a Sabre or 2 is always good fun

DaHedd
18-04-2008, 13:26
I tend to use Autocannons over Heavy Bolters in my Guard army, i just find them fluffier. I have so far resisted swapping the Multilasers off my Sentinals yet, but im very torn.

Anyways from my limited recent gaming experience (moved house) a 3 Autocannon FS team is very nasty to both Devilfish and Crisis suits.

ssgtdude
18-04-2008, 17:57
I also questioned the autocannon when I was thinking of adding them to my own guard. When it all came down in the end I ended up test fielding them. Now, They are a staple that I just couldn't live without.

The autocannon is a work horse. I usually field them off my HSO instead of in a platoon to be able to give them the immobility they need.

Hopefully with the next incarnation of the IG codex we will see some weapon changes as well as points cost changes.

I'm already preparing myself for the lower troop costs.

SonofUltramar
19-04-2008, 13:43
I like autocannons on my sentinals, move and shoot plus the 48" range can help to keep them alive a little bit longer.

Same for me, I find that if you stay at longer ranges the enemy has to use proper AT weapons like Lascannons, Missile Launchers etc. to take them out which means they aren't shooting at my Chimeras and Russ?

Corrupt
19-04-2008, 14:23
Autocannons are beautiful weapons
1) More versatile than almost any other heavy weapon
2) Light armour busting capability
3) Multiple high strength reasonable AP Shots
4) Autocannons are just cool (look at Warrior IFV's etc)
5) In a Veteran squad with 3 Grenade Launchers they absolutely destroy all non MEQ enemies.

Bloodknight
19-04-2008, 14:26
Yay for more autocannons. This thread makes me want a few more of them even more. If anybody has got a few Mordian AC teams too many, tell me. I will also take Praetorians, although the poor guys would lose their heads.

Malachai
19-04-2008, 14:37
Yay for more autocannons. This thread makes me want a few more of them even more. If anybody has got a few Mordian AC teams too many, tell me. I will also take Praetorians, although the poor guys would lose their heads.


I actually bought 3 extra oldstyle cadian autocannons today for an extra heavy weapon squad. I have 7 of them now, 4 in my platoons, 3 for the heavy weapon team. They are great.

Sgt Biffo
19-04-2008, 17:59
The autocannon is a work horse.

And a work horse is what you want it to be...

Look at the Melbourne Storm player Paul Marquet. 4 Career tries, no field goals, no gaols, no injury. Nothing fancy just hard as a coffin nail.

The guy would get way more hit ups than tackles and had a average metre gain bang on 10 meters. Second and third tackle you can give him the ball and he'll gain 10 metres and take three tacklers out. Its about the grind... and that's the Guards game plan!!!... and Marquets face (like a run over rubbish bin) stands testament to the effectiveness of the slow grind tactic.