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londo
12-04-2008, 19:52
Hi,
Can i use in my army an character from GW web page without asking my opponent? In this case im talking about Vladimir von Raukov, Empire. But my question is general. If the Opponent say "NO" can i still use them or no? I have seen the answer about Imperial Tank and it was "yes" but i want to be sure about characters.

Lord_of_end_times
12-04-2008, 20:01
You can always use named characters as long as they are in you army book. One Love

londo
12-04-2008, 20:08
Hi,
But they not in my army book. That is the question. If they not in an Army Book. but they are on the GW internet 'pages as an official, can i use them without asking or i cannot. Im thalking exactly about Vladimir vo Raukov, Empire, but my question is general. Who can i include and whom i cannot?
Thamk you

Avaron
12-04-2008, 20:21
its simple. any character that says you must have your opponents permission requires there ok. it is all spelled out character by character. some have been playtested more than others.

cheaking the site it dosent say you need permission to feild him so in theory you dont...your opponent may still complain though..so atleast bring a print out.

SuperBeast
12-04-2008, 20:23
If it's in the army book, no problem.

If it's not, then it's permission required as it's not 'official' per se.

Caboose123
12-04-2008, 21:25
Some things on the GW site are official, such as the spawning armys of lizardmen.

Heros in army books dont need your opponents permission, unless they say otherwise. In this case the GW site should say whether you do or not, and after checking:


Here are a collection of rules for fielding Empire special characters that appeared in past publications. You can use them on the tabletop with your opponent's consent.

That solves this then.

Leogun_91
12-04-2008, 22:45
In fact EVERYTHING needs your opponents permission unless otherwise stated in the countries laws and those questions are up to each group of gamers to decide if your opponent is not OK with you using the hero the he may say NO nno matter how official the hero is I COULD for example chose not to play against skink priests (for some reason) and if someone used them against me I would quit the game, the later would be considered idiotic but where to put the line is a hard issue that can not be solved by a worldwide rule, what I would do is to make two armylists (one whit the hero and one whithout) for such occasions and just before you are about too play (after the enemy has prepared his list ask if he is OK with you using an official GW hero that is not in the armybook and depending on the answer you choose an army.

Falkman
13-04-2008, 11:34
As Leogun says, everything is really opponent's permission, doesn't matter if GW says a special char is opponent's permission or not, if your opponent don't want to face the special char he can just refuse to play you ;)

T10
13-04-2008, 11:34
(... unintelligible...)

What are you going on about?

-T10

Lijacote
13-04-2008, 11:53
What are you going on about?

-T10

That the game is, in the end, completely governed by consent. I'd go on about this applying to civil society, but meh.

ehlijen
13-04-2008, 14:16
As fun as endless sentences are, they are only worth it if they have a punchline. For communicating they're useless.

That said, I agree. Everything is opponent consent. If he doesn't consent, he won't play with you. If he refuses to play against you due to a single (presumably non-overpowered) character, he's probably doing you favour in not forcing you to interact with him, though.

T10
13-04-2008, 15:06
This gets me riled up a bit. And what's frustrating is that I fail to put into words why.

I feel inclined to liken using an outside-the-book special character with using other non-legal combos, e.g. taking more than the allowed character allowance, or units from other armies, or using more points than initially agreed upon. All these things are "possible" in that you can simply do it and expect either an "ok!" or "nuh-huh!" from your opponent.

I don't think it is common practice to tell your while arranging a game: "I want to play an empire army and I want to use a unit of Swordmen." However I would expect a player wanting to use mr. von Raukov to make his intentions clear on beforehand, and to accept refusal with good grace.

I guess my feelings on this matter is that players should not insist on using add-on elements that require their opponent's consent. I feel this is different than being faced with a legal but abusive list (e.g. Kar Franz on the Imperial Dragon with an army of two Steam Tanks).

-T10

Falkman
13-04-2008, 15:23
I disagree with you here T10, if my opponent would want to field anything other than the straight vanilla stuff from a list (for example special characters) then I would like to know in advance, so i could read up on said characters rules, and also be prepared and perhaps take a special character myself.
I do not see special characters as something as ordinary as say a Warrior priest or any other "normal" hero/lord and so would be frustrated if someone brought them upon me without telling in advance (especially if it's one of the nastier special characters that almost requires tailored lists to beat).

Caboose123
13-04-2008, 15:29
I agree with Falkman here.

Among other things its just unrealistic for Tyrion to be leading a 2000 points expeditionary force... 8(


(P.S. This is a rules discussion for are you allowed to use the characters on the GW site without your opponents permission; this has been answered... bye.)

xragg
14-04-2008, 05:57
Special characters in the books are completely fair game now. I think in fifth you still had to agree on using special characters, but not anymore. They are considered just as playable and play-tested as your vanilla troops. If you dont want to use special characters in a game, you should ask your oppenent not to field them, not vice versa.

Gazak Blacktoof
14-04-2008, 14:09
I don't think its ever going to work that way for some people (myself included).

I agree with caboose and falkman, I'd always appreciate a courtesy nod if somebody is going to bring along a special character. We very, very rarely use them in our group because they can so often completely change the nature of the game.

However I'd never prevent somebody using a special character (either from the book or the website) unless they used it all of the time and it got boring.

Makaber
15-04-2008, 00:25
I've read T10's post three or four times now, and I still don't really know what you're trying to say. Since I know the guy fairly well though, I think we share a stance on the issue though.

In my book, the distinction goes between being allowed to use an outside-the-book special character, and expecting to be allowed to. I could use an example of my own: I've got a Dark Elf army with a lot of Witch Elves in it, and I also have a Manticore model tossing around I'm not using for anything in particular. One day, I found Crone Hellebrons rules on the 'net, and decided that I could make a nifty Hellebron conversion for the occational kick and giggle.

If/when I do, I'll probably only use it against my friends, in games they know I'll use her in, and give them a solid runthrough of her rules beforehand. I'd probably also ask a little in advance if they actually wanted to play against her.

What I wouldn't do, is to bring her unannounced to a game I scheduled with some guy I don't know that well down at the weekly games club. I could perhaps bring it along if they'd actually want to play it, but I'd certainly have a backup list handy. I would never, under any circumstances, go to a random game like that and expect them to play against her. No more than I'd cook up my own crazy-ass "special character" and expect them to play against it, either.

And generally speaking, I'm not really a fan of special characters, and especially stuff lifted off outside-the-book sources. Special characters are merely specialisations of the standard character archetypes, and are far too open for cynical abuse. It's a bit like the Warhammer 40k traits: If I don't intend to have any tanks in my army, why not just take a trait that disallows me fielding any, and pick up a free perk in return? It's a bit too easy for the limitations to fit the army (or in this case, special character), instead of the other way around.

That said, if the Empire army was lovingly painted in the black-and-white livery of Ostland, with big bushy beards and bull motifs in abundance, I'd probably allow the guy to play with von Raukov. I'd be less inclined to if the army was some random collection of steam tanks and great cannons.

Oh, and as for the original question, this is from the actual .pdf document containint von Raukovs rules:


The following Special Character has not been playtested as thoroughly as the ones
presented in the army books and is not necessarily as balanced or fair. Consequently,
you must agree with your opponent about whether you can use him or not before the
battle begins.

Crispian25
15-04-2008, 04:07
Special characters in older versions of the game could really over-power a game and make it no fun for the other person, hence the permission needed. Now characters can be fun additions, but tend not to over balance things. Super strong characters are counter-balanced by their points cost, and I have won several fights based on defeating the unit the Lord is with or a carefully placed charge or cannonball shot. Some special characters that count as hero choices are even suggested for use as generals in small points games (Luthor Huss, Caradryan...). While I almost never use Archaon (he costs way too much for less than 3000 point games), I still have the model to use when I'm feeling peckish. In short, let's not get philosophical. If it's in your army book, you can play it whenever. If it's Dogs of War legal, then you can play it, provided you follow th rules for that army. If you got it from the web or made it up yourself, then you at least need your opponent's permission and definitely don't plan on taking it to a tournament.

Oh, since it is kind of on topic, alternate army lists need opponent's permission as well, such as: Nuln gun line, former Vampire lists like Brettonian vampires, Dark Elf city garrison. The only exception I know is the Lizardman Southlands, since it is stated as legit in the army book.