PDA

View Full Version : question about price hikes



kormas
12-04-2008, 23:53
i am not sure if this is posted on the right forum but anyway...:confused:

as i have read some of the threds on this forum there are repeted references to GW price hikes, i was wondering what you all are talking about, i have started a vc army and i am finding it to be cheeper to collect now than in the previous edition, the only thing that they have really made expencive are blood knights, opinions would be welcome

Gralph!?!
12-04-2008, 23:58
its that blisters can be over priced (CAN BE all of you who need an emphasis spelled out to them.) the box sets for the newer armies are good since you get 10 models and are £12 each so it means you do not get overwwhelmed by lots of models to paint and you can get the first bits to a unit cheaper in the short run but if you get large units then it is more expensive for the single unit than in the bast. at least there are a wider variaty of converting specialist units which can cost alot (old bloodletters)

starlight
13-04-2008, 00:00
Moved to Other GW.

starlight
The Warseer Inquisition

lanrak
13-04-2008, 01:08
Hmmmm.
Lets see. Regiment boxed sets were £12.
Then they were £15.
Then they were £18
Now they are £12 for half the number of models.(£24)
Effectively the cost has doubled for a regiment boxed set.
If the cost had risen inline with inflation , they would be about £16 ish, not £24.

So how have GW not hiked prices up?

The 'GW hobby' is very expencive, fortunatley the wargaming hobby need not be.:D

Templar Ben
13-04-2008, 01:09
i am not sure if this is posted on the right forum but anyway...:confused:

as i have read some of the threds on this forum there are repeted references to GW price hikes, i was wondering what you all are talking about, i have started a vc army and i am finding it to be cheeper to collect now than in the previous edition, the only thing that they have really made expencive are blood knights, opinions would be welcome

Perhaps you should go look at the blisters and see what the price bands cost. Go back in a year and see what the price bands cost and see if that fits inflation for the year or greatly exceeds it.

As far as armies being more expensive, well I can't speak for VC. I know Orks got expensive because of the undercosting of boys. You now require many more to get the same number of points. Smart marketing but it causes many to say that GW is overpriced.

Hope that helps.

howardmoon
13-04-2008, 01:28
People "complain" about price hikes because nobody wants to pay more for something they bought for less "back in the day".When i was a teenager i used to pay £9.99 for the latest computer game , twenty years later the latest console Game can cost £45-£50 , thats about a upto a 400% increase in some cases. When i started smoking a 20 pack was £2 fifteen years later the same pack costs £5.50 ,thats almost triple, my house was worth 50k ten years ago and now its worth 168k (at the moment at least :( ).
Prices in the UK have risen for everything at a completely stupid rate over the last ten years and GW is a UK company and your hobby is a luxury,Add to that the crazy cost of metal due to the ban on lead in electronics 2 years ago which meant companys started to use more tin for soldering.
This hobby has never been cheap and never will be, if price is an issue then collect an army slower or smarter.

TonyFlow
13-04-2008, 04:15
Price hikes on blisters/boxes is one thing. In the case of WHFB there are also the "secret" price hikes, as already mentioned. From 6th ed. on you needed much more models to play. This caused me to stop playing for a few years, because I was just a poor high school student, who had just discovered the wonders of beer, and now would have to cough up a lot of money to even be able to present a legal army.

lord_blackfang
13-04-2008, 10:05
People "complain" about price hikes because nobody wants to pay more for something they bought for less "back in the day".When i was a teenager i used to pay £9.99 for the latest computer game , twenty years later the latest console Game can cost £45-£50 , thats about a upto a 400% increase in some cases. When i started smoking a 20 pack was £2 fifteen years later the same pack costs £5.50 ,thats almost triple, my house was worth 50k ten years ago and now its worth 168k (at the moment at least :( ).
Prices in the UK have risen for everything at a completely stupid rate over the last ten years and GW is a UK company and your hobby is a luxury,Add to that the crazy cost of metal due to the ban on lead in electronics 2 years ago which meant companys started to use more tin for soldering.
This hobby has never been cheap and never will be, if price is an issue then collect an army slower or smarter.

Wow, this banned person seems the be the only other creature in existance besides me to notice that everything else increased in price just as much.

ankara halla
13-04-2008, 11:12
Not really, GW's prices have risen about twice as fast as inflation would give cause.

sigur
13-04-2008, 11:36
This isn't only about inflation (which selling companies often take as an excuse). Everything gets more expensive, especially in the past two years.

Bregalad
13-04-2008, 11:42
GW made three (!) price hikes last year in Germany. On the other hand they pretend, that kids are their target customers. But more and more kids (and students) can't afford this hobby and our local store feels it. Raising prices and firing people seems to be the only GW management answers to declining sales. But it obviously doesn't help and didn't help in the past.

BTW: Someone told me that there are 8 persons in poor Southern Italy who could afford playing Warhammer Fantasy. And no, raising prices would not help there either.

ankara halla
13-04-2008, 11:42
@Sigur

Well obviously all businesses charge however much they think they can get away with and I agree that inflation really isn't a big factor in the pricing of luxury goods. Even so, none of my other hobbies have all but tripled in price in the past 18 years I've been doing them on and off.

Bloodknight
13-04-2008, 12:08
Also, inflation is an arbitrary number, computed from the overall price rises and lowerings.

I think the current inflation rate in Germany is about 3% - but that is if you fly to the Canary islands twice a year, buy a new dishwasher and a new computer every two years and some quite ridiculous things I don't remember at the moment (this got all cheaper) and therefore counts for people who spend a lot of money on things that are not cost of living. Inflation for the monetarily challenged like me or actual poor people has been a lot higher.
IIRC food prices have risen in excess of 10% last year alone due to rises in dairy products, grains, meat; fuel got terribly expensive, etc.
I feel that quite a lot - I've been getting the same amount of money for the last few years as a student and after cost of living I could spend about 50-80 Euros on my hobby at first and go out to drink a beer once or twice a month, but currently that free money has dropped to about 30 Euros, since I cannot fill up my car with 50€ anymore - and I only fill her up once a month, not twice like I used to.
Since GW are luxury goods you cannot really apply these 3% on it. Just look what luxury cars cost today. 10 years ago my dad bought a new Mercedes for around 90.000 DM (45.000€); currently the same car (new model, ok, but with the same gimmicks) costs almost 70.000.

(Should you wonder about those numbers, then please acknowledge that people in the EU outside of Germany pay about 20% less for cars, especially German cars, than we do).


What I wanted to say: the overall rises in GW's prices are not as bad as people want them to see - normally one should also earn a lot more money than he did in the 80s when Rhinos were 3 for 10£.

KingNic
13-04-2008, 12:59
Now they are £12 for half the number of models.(£24)
Effectively the cost has doubled for a regiment boxed set.


Stop saying this. It used to be £18 for 16 models in most cases (yes I know there are exceptions like the empire) which is £1.13 per model. They're now £12 for 10 models which is £1.20 per model. They've gone up 7p per model. Considering the huge jump in quality of models in terms of skellies and huge jump in the number of bits & accessories for Orks, I'm more than willing to pay an extra 7p per model.

Not to mention that the number of previously expensive elite models such as grave guard and black Orcs are now the same price, that's a huge saving there.

I'd say that in the past GW has obviously hiked prices but now they've reached their plateau and are keeping prices the same or raising them in line with inflation.

Bloodknight
13-04-2008, 13:09
Agreed. I was quite surprised to see that the metal chaos marauder unit I own cost me about 80€ in 1998 (when money was worth more, so in today's prices that would probably be 30% more, ie around 107), while with the current prices for metal models (10 to a box for 30) it would cost me 60. And since they are plastic now, the price would be about 40 (box+command blister).

EmperorNorton
13-04-2008, 13:45
GW made three (!) price hikes last year in Germany.

I remember that they raised the prices for codes F through I, which I found quite painful - although not as painful as the price hike on codes A through E the year before -, and the Army books cost a bit more now, but what is the third price hike?

As I mentioned in another thread I was surprised how little the prices have risen here over the last ten years when flipping through some old White Dwarfs recently.
The oldest issue I have is from July 1997. There they list Army Books at 40DM, so up until recently the newer Army Books were actually cheaper than the old ones used to be.
The Bretonnian Hero on Pegasus cost 50DM, now he's in the Collector's catalogue for 22,50€ (10% less). Black Knights cost 18DM, now they are 9€.

As far back as I remember it has always been expensive.
However, they shot themselves in the foot with the price hike on codes A through E as far as I'm concerend. Especially the price on code D is crucial for me. Dropping 10€ for a blister when I went to the local game store was okay, but since they are 11.50€ I haven't bought a single one, I believe.

lord_blackfang
13-04-2008, 14:37
GW made three (!) price hikes last year in Germany.


Did any single item actually increase in cost 3 times in one year, or do you mean to say they hiked up 3 groups of items at 3 different times, ie. just spreading out one actual price increase? Cause the latter really shouldn't count.

selfconstrukt
13-04-2008, 21:13
I think something else that should be considered when talking about GW's price hikes is their manufacturing costs as well.

A few times I remember they used to cite increasing manufacturing and raw material costs for the price increases, but that was when they used to outsource their plastic moulding to another company, which they haven't done for several years now.

Plastic tools which used to cost almost $100K now only cost them around $10K-$15K since they do it "in-house" now.

Also, GW has made general improvements to manufacturing as a whole to reduce stock on hand, manufacturing times, labour costs etc. so everything they make costs them less than it did just 2-3 years ago.

Its just business though, that those improvements which reduced their costs and made the product cheaper for them to produce would NOT reduce the cost to the customer.

The extra savings they now get go to more profits or higher pay wages for the management staff or bonuses etc.

Its just business, why reduce the cost of a product when customers will still buy it? You find ways to make it cheaper to produce so you increase your profits, which just about every business does.

If GW wanted to they could probably reduce the costs considerably for their plastic kits, but they won't since there is no reason for them to.

As much as some people complain about the cost, many seem unwilling or unable to use alternate models from other companies like GZG, Privateer, Crocodile Games and many others.

I am not saying those companies are generally cheaper than GW, only that they do have models you can use as alternatives that can be cheaper than the GW ones.

And I know there will be others saying "You can't use other companies models in a GW tournament" etc etc, but GW has themselves stated that competitive players are a very small minority of their customers (less than 1% IIRC).

If the cost of GW models turns you off, there are hundreds of alternatives out there, most of which can be bought for less.

Darkseer
13-04-2008, 21:17
Has there been a price hike in the UK this year?

blongbling
13-04-2008, 22:33
no there hasnt......

Wyatt
14-04-2008, 11:22
Look at the Sony Playstation as an example.

PS1, I bought for £100 when it first came out.
PS2, what... 7 years later? £200 starting price.
PS3,less than 10 years later, started at between £450 and £550.

This is just one example, but shows it's not just GW.

Ok, so other things...

McCoys Flame Grilled Steak in my local shop:

10 years ago: 27p
Now: 59p

2l bottle of coke (local shop):

10 years ago: 79p
Now: £1.99

Five years ago I bought a brand new CD for £6.99 from a store's chart section. I went to buy Back to Black as a present for my Dad, £15.99, same store chart section.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
14-04-2008, 11:44
[QUOTE=Wyatt;2522567]Look at the Sony Playstation as an example.

PS1, I bought for £100 when it first came out.
PS2, what... 7 years later? £200 starting price.
PS3,less than 10 years later, started at between £450 and £550."


This is misleading. You forget that unlike GW products. After 4-6month the prices of consoles goes down.

Also the price of the games dramaticly goes down. Thus ensuring that they are adjusting prices relative to demand and at the same time maximising their profits.

Saying that. GW make high quality models. The quality is great. I would be happy to pay more as long as the quality remains high.

On the older range still in stock. I would think it would be wise to reduce the cost of those products.

Thanks,

Beale

blongbling
14-04-2008, 12:23
On the older range still in stock. I would think it would be wise to reduce the cost of those products.

Thanks,

Beale

but GW couldnt as the impact isnt in reducing the cost itself it is also in having to compensate all the indie stores that have that product as well, with over 4000 indie stores under their belt that in itself could prove disasterous

Patriarch
14-04-2008, 12:45
Look at the Sony Playstation as an example.

PS1, I bought for £100 when it first came out.


I've got to leap in here. The PS1 cost far more than £100 when it first came out. I paid over £250 new for mine and it had been out at least a year already.

Osbad
14-04-2008, 15:21
I don't know where you got those prices from Wyatt, but they're way out of whack.

And in any case, its pointless looking at prices for vey different markets - such as gaming consoles. Electronics prices have their own economic reality.

For instance I could as easily compare the price of a laptop. The first one I bought was a 386-equivalent with a monochrone screen. Cost £1,500 in 1996. The latest dual-core 17" colour monitor one I bought cost me £330 delivered. Its simply not a valid comparison.

Now, if someone compare how miniature prices for other manufacturers had moved over the last 10 years (say, Foundry, Reaper, Old Glory, etc., etc.,) then it might be worth looking at. Otherwise the RPI over the last few years is a better figure.

However, because of GW's "mobile" pricing structure it is hard to get a grasp on an "across the range" price movement for GW. For instance many models cost "less" than they used to because they are now plastic kits rather than metal kits (although often they stay the same price - such as with the forthcoming plastic LotR Troll kits - but what does that mean for "quality"?), but for other ranges they are put into boxes of smaller numbers at a higher unit price.

With tactics like that it is very hard to get a fix on GW's actual "inflation rate".

Brother Enok
14-04-2008, 15:31
I don't object to paying they high prices GW demand, evidently, or I wouldn't be playing, but it does irk me that they outright lie to staff and customers..
"we make no profit on carry cases"
"We only make 1p on core and troop choices"
"We sell to staff at a lose"

Yeah.....I smell some thing. GW southend, im looking at your manager.

blongbling
14-04-2008, 16:06
is it a lie or is it just that they dont know and make it up...i think it is the latter rather than any real attempt to mislead

starlight
14-04-2008, 16:31
Actually, I think it's a bit of both. They don't know, so they repeat whatever they are told, which comes from people who *also* don't know, and have made it up themselves.

Simple fact - GW still makes money on Staff discounted product. This is the main reason why Staff discounts change, to keep GW making money.

pookie
14-04-2008, 16:45
Look at the Sony Playstation as an example.

PS1, I bought for £100 when it first came out.
PS2, what... 7 years later? £200 starting price.
PS3,less than 10 years later, started at between £450 and £550.

This is just one example, but shows it's not just GW.

Ok, so other things...

McCoys Flame Grilled Steak in my local shop:

10 years ago: 27p
Now: 59p

2l bottle of coke (local shop):

10 years ago: 79p
Now: £1.99

Five years ago I bought a brand new CD for £6.99 from a store's chart section. I went to buy Back to Black as a present for my Dad, £15.99, same store chart section.

doesnt work, for example a Greater Daemon at one point cost £3.99 its now £20+?

lord_blackfang
14-04-2008, 16:54
doesnt work, for example a Greater Daemon at one point cost £3.99 its now £20+?

They're also larger now. Might as well moan that a 2l bottle of Coke today is more expensive than a .25l bottle 10 years ago. :rolleyes:

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 18:16
And with the march of plastics, the overall price of gaining an army hasn't gone up anywhere near as much as some might have you believe....

£12 for 10 Flagellants (in plakky) or £25 for 10 (in Metal)

As more and more stuff goes plastic, the price may actually lower slightly. Take the Vampire Counts. Plastic Ghouls and Dire Wolves are a significant impact in the cost of raising (lulz...undead...raising...lulz) an army....

Moralein
14-04-2008, 18:45
Look at something like the GW plastic skeletons. Points cost has remained the same but last edition has increased the regiment size by 4 models for the same rank bonus.

Started at 5 quid for 8,
Next set 10 quid for 20,
New set 12 quid for 10.

So for plastic skellies the cost has increased by a factor of either 200% from the initial batch or 240% for the intermediate. Ignoring the fact that you need more models to have the same tabletop effect that's still some mark-up. Or should that be 100% and 140%-sorry long day!

OperationTarpit
14-04-2008, 19:02
And with the march of plastics, the overall price of gaining an army hasn't gone up anywhere near as much as some might have you believe....

£12 for 10 Flagellants (in plakky) or £25 for 10 (in Metal)

As more and more stuff goes plastic, the price may actually lower slightly. Take the Vampire Counts. Plastic Ghouls and Dire Wolves are a significant impact in the cost of raising (lulz...undead...raising...lulz) an army....

When I started the hobby 13 years ago, it was 4 Flagellants for £5, then it became 3 for £5 then 2 for £5. Exact same models in the blister.

One deduction was atributed to a 10% price rise though they removed 25% of the models from the blister. The reasoning was to keep all the blisters the same price so they rounded off.

The other deduction was attributed to the changing of metal type in the moulding process even though we are told that the materials are cheap and we pay for the r&d side of the hobby and the mould manufacture costs not the materials.

The main issue with GW is that they change their story so often, making up unbelievable excuses that directly contradict the previous unbelievable excuses. The BS that some of the store staff come up with is amazing in some cases.

I don't mind paying the prices that GW charge, if they just said that they want to make more money and quit the BS I would be happier.

I have a certain amount of money budgeted a month for wargaming, prices rise I spend the same amount but end up with less models. I will say that the percentage of that money that I spend on GW products has dropped a lot in recent years, I find myself spending a much larger proportional on the other war gaming systems.

OperationTarpit
14-04-2008, 19:06
They're also larger now. Might as well moan that a 2l bottle of Coke today is more expensive than a .25l bottle 10 years ago. :rolleyes:

How about the fact that in some shops a .5l bottle is more expensive than a 1.5l

weareinalotoftroublebeale
14-04-2008, 19:43
but GW couldnt as the impact isnt in reducing the cost itself it is also in having to compensate all the indie stores that have that product as well, with over 4000 indie stores under their belt that in itself could prove disasterous

I would arugue to look at the high street shops such as game which are indies.

I would have thought GW would reduce the cost of the old range for customers at the same time offering lower trade prices towards the indies. true the pre stock before the price slash might hurt but not if they give enough notice. Won't hurt that much. I think it might help in shift stock faster which is what GW need. I would suspect after several years when those models go out of print or mail order only their price would naturally go up again.

Thanks
Beale,

BrainFireBob
14-04-2008, 20:19
Let's be honest here.

It's not how much GW goes up, it's the fact they do so, not gradually, but distinctly on a regular schedule, that *feels* like a shaft-job.

Because one week something is worth Y, and the next it's X, and X is considerably larger than Y?

However, they don't deal with price adjustments, generally, outside of their distinctive regular "price adjustments."

There's also the "taxes effect"- we can see these price adjustments coming, and it makes them easier to grumble about.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 22:56
How about the fact that in some shops a .5l bottle is more expensive than a 1.5l

Pray you never visit Londons South Bank.....

Glass of Water sir? Certainly, that'll be both your Kidneys, half your Liver, your Nans Pension fund, and all the first born in your bloodline for the next 5 milennia.

Okay, I might be exageratting, but not that much!

selfconstrukt
15-04-2008, 04:13
I don't object to paying they high prices GW demand, evidently, or I wouldn't be playing, but it does irk me that they outright lie to staff and customers..
"we make no profit on carry cases"
"We only make 1p on core and troop choices"
"We sell to staff at a lose"

Yeah.....I smell some thing. GW southend, im looking at your manager.

Not a chance those are true...

I'll try and dig out my old files and get you an actual cost on those ASAP.

But I do know GW actually made a profit (a small one) even off of employee metal sales when they bought by weight.

Most of the core and troop choices cost GW in the neighborhood of $4-$9 to make, this includes the cost of making the sprues, packing the boxes etc.

The amount of money GW makes in nuts and much of that is going to salaries or bonuses now.

blongbling
15-04-2008, 08:21
selfconstruk, no real need to get the fugiures out mate as everyone knows it isnt true, plus dont want you to post senstitive GW material on here and get yourself in trouble

OperationTarpit
15-04-2008, 09:57
Pray you never visit Londons South Bank.....

Glass of Water sir? Certainly, that'll be both your Kidneys, half your Liver, your Nans Pension fund, and all the first born in your bloodline for the next 5 milennia.

Okay, I might be exageratting, but not that much!

lol I can imagine, motorway services are bad enough.



selfconstruk, no real need to get the fugiures out mate as everyone knows it isnt true, plus dont want you to post senstitive GW material on here and get yourself in trouble


Let's be honest here.

It's not how much GW goes up, it's the fact they do so, not gradually, but distinctly on a regular schedule, that *feels* like a shaft-job.

Because one week something is worth Y, and the next it's X, and X is considerably larger than Y?

However, they don't deal with price adjustments, generally, outside of their distinctive regular "price adjustments."

There's also the "taxes effect"- we can see these price adjustments coming, and it makes them easier to grumble about.

Yeah, that's the main issue about the price rises. We know the reasons can't be true and it does feel like we are being treated as idiots. If they are going to lie to us, they might as well make up some believable lies.

Though some of it may not be GW's HQ actual fault but the actions of some staff (not all) at some stores (not all) who cant be bothered to explain something in detail so they just make up excuses.

I will say one thing regarding the actual inflation, when I stated GW paints were half the price of Vallejo paints. Now Vallejo paints are half the price of GW paints. That is a 400% price inflation relative to their closest competitor in the paint market.

I also find Vallejo paints to be a better quality than GW paints, hense I and most of the gamers I know are switching over or have already switched to vallejo. No doubt as their sales of paint start to significantly drop, they will up the price again.

In fact I stopped buying any of the GW hobby supplies some time ago, I have decided that these are too expensive compared to alternatives. A model railway store can be a good source of flock, any hardware store will have the majority of tools. Pin drills are not too hard to get hold of either, I get sable brushes for cheaper than the GW brushes.

Strix
15-04-2008, 10:45
The thing about workshop is that they don't deal with price hikes effectively.

Remember when the russ went up from £20-£25?

I remember this being badly recieved because its a 25% increase all at once. No one wants to pay another fiver for something. Its just bad marketing.

If GW had realised that they can break from their pricing brackets and implemented, say, 2 changes at £2.50 a go, chances are that it would have been better recieved. On one hand, while you can argue that 2 price hikes are worse, on the other hand, an additional £2.50 seems a lot less to pay than £5. I'd much prefer smaller, gradual changes to large arbitrary price rises.

I think the real core of the issue is, though, that everything has gotten more expensive. While models have, so has council tax (mine by 112%), energy costs (Mine have doubled), petrol (say no more) and loads of other things. Guy on BBC1 this morning said that mince (as in the meat and not the dancing ;) ) had risen by 64% over the year, and bread by 33%. The thing you find is that these supermarkets raise their prices gradually, rather than all at once, reducing the impact of them to some degree. Rather than addopting a frankly bizzare pricing structure, GW needs to look at price rises which are percieved as reasonable, rather than just landing us with an occasional huge one which doesnt seem justified.

Osbad
15-04-2008, 11:20
For me I think what bugs me is that it feels a little like GW have a certain "arrogance" about them. This comes from them being the undisputed fantasy/sci-fi wargaming market leader.

Perhaps its my allergy to corporate hype?

Other manufacturers (such as, picking one "indie" at random: Hasslefree), do their models, set what feels like (to them) a reasonable price given they've got to make a living and that they aren't too out of whack with their competitors, and then its just a "take it or leave it". Every so often metal prices or postage, or other cost of living rises means they have to increase their prices, but they do this with one eye on the competition, and a sense of trying to keep it "reasonable" for the punter, being aware that if they charged too much their punters would walk.

However, I just don't get that feeling with GW. Now at this point, someone will come along and say "GW are a business so just suck it up". But that's exactly the point I'm making. No one objects to a company making a profit, and we'd all rather GW survived rather than went belly-up, but none of us likes being taken for granted. So when GW's prices mean that some models (say plastic tanks) appear greatly overpriced compared to similar sized kits from other manufacturers, then it feels bad and like customers are being taken for granted. Similarly when individual character models are charged at £6 or £7 each for human or smaller-than human (LotR Goblin shaman £6. £6 for a single frikkin' Goblin?! What gives!?) model. Just because they can.

It feels like we are being charged a "GW tax".

Now, I totally get MDG's point and agree that with units being switched to plastic, unit- and army-building is now cheaper, which makes the hobby more accessible. So good for that. But for every positive there's a negative and you get them pulling "shady" tactics like switching larger unit boxes for smaller ones, reducing the price per box but upping the unit price per model. Or bringing out a model in plastic for the same price its metal predecessor (such as the Balrog or the forthcoming Mordor/Isengard Troll kit) It just FEELS shady. It may be sensible, but it feels shady. And hence follows anger and irritation.

Bottom line, if GW's (and PP and Rackham's and other major "fantasy" companies that follow GW's lead) pricing structure was a bit leaner then it wouldn't feel so bad. Maybe? The whole "fantasy tax" is just a bummer.

I can also see the source of irritiation from someone who is halfway through building an army and then find that the particular unit or vehicle has increased in price by 25% overnight. That is a pisser.

Personally I have no need to buy "official" models for any game. If I like a model and can use it in a game I like to/want to play, and I feel the price is "worth" it I'll buy it. (Or at least I'll put it on my wish-list and buy it when I have the opportunity to paint it). It's the only way to retain sanity. That way while I still may have paid silly money for a given model (some of the larger PP models are beyond silly, and Rackham's infantry units are silly money too), I have paid more "reasonable" prices for rank and file stuff, and I don't feel "ripped off".

Nowadays, with the wonders of the internet, it is possible to access all sorts of sculpts at all sorts of prices. If you buy something for what you perceive is "good value" you will enjoy your hobby. If you buy something and feel ripped off you won't enjoy your hobby. Simple as. Proxy models are your friends! :)

The only irritation for me that remains now is that when GW produce something I like, but am not crazy about, for LotR that follows the "film" imagery, as it is difficult, really difficult, to proxy in those cases. But, when that happens, I just look at the big box of unpainted LotR models under my bed and I realise that I don't really "need" that new model after all! :) I still think the price is a ripoff, but it doesn't really bother me any more.

Of course there is irritation amongst those that can't proxy because they only play in "officially, official" events. In which case, at least you're likely to get some decent use out of your "investment" in official product.

I'm starting to ramble now, but I think the point of what I am saying is that the survival strategy for not letting price hikes make you quit the hobby, is to stay within budget, only buy stuff you have a chance of using, proxy where possible and alternatives are cheaper, and don't get too emotionally invested in particular models. Also: never, EVER, buy direct from GW. Always get 20% off from a discounter. And finally, seriously: I may really, really love a particular model, but buying a new toy isn't going to change your life. If its too expensive you can learn to live without it! :)

Vcell
15-04-2008, 11:53
In my opinion the prices of GW are really high. But they have also real good offers.
10 Leman Russ for 225 Euro? 36% cheaper than buying them seperate.
Or this big deal from the mail order with about 170 Cadians. Also about 30%.
Yes you have to pay a lot at once, but if you build an army why not. Or maybe you can find other People and you buy together.

Also very funny at the moment:
Forgeworld: Cadian Special Weapon Troopers: ~10 Euro
GW(if you buy in Germany): Cadian Special Weapon Troopers: 11.50 Euro

Gobbo Lord
15-04-2008, 12:52
The Stone and River Trolls are a good example of crazy price increases. They are the exact same models as when i was first drawn to warhammer (4th edition). I played orcs and goblins and brought a river troll for i believe £4.99. However i soon left the hobby. When i got back into it later in life i decided to get two more trolls to make a unit. They were 10 pounds each. That was double what they were before.
Then they went up to 12 pounds each. a 20% increase on what i thought was already expensive. A unit of three trolls used to cost 15 pounds. Now it is almost that much for one. 3 cost £36. The thingthat annoys me about this is they are the exact same models. There is no concievable reason why they have risen above the rate of inflation.

lord_blackfang
15-04-2008, 13:24
Other manufacturers (such as, picking one "indie" at random: Hasslefree), do their models, set what feels like (to them) a reasonable price given they've got to make a living and that they aren't too out of whack with their competitors, and then its just a "take it or leave it".


One thing that needs to be pointed out about indies is that they're mostly sculpting minis as a hobby. A guy sculpting and casting in his basement in his spare time has practically zero overhead costs, and he probably pays his bills with his real job. Compare this to GW - they have to pay rent for the shops, salaries for everyone from the designers to the store staff, shipping, etc.



I'm starting to ramble now, but I think the point of what I am saying is that the survival strategy for not letting price hikes make you quit the hobby, is to stay within budget, only buy stuff you have a chance of using, proxy where possible and alternatives are cheaper, and don't get too emotionally invested in particular models. Also: never, EVER, buy direct from GW. Always get 20% off from a discounter.

Yup. In this era of online discounters, paying retail is just daft. I don't think I've bought anything at retail in 3 years or so :D

Strix
15-04-2008, 13:30
Osbad, I agree with you part of the way. I think it is a bit daft what they've done with, say, empire halberdiers and 40k orks (increase to £1.20 a model), but then consider that their potentially loosing money over other units (Flaggellants, daemons from £5/6 decrease to £1.20) and I think the situation is as broad as its long.

Personally speaking though, Im actually happier to pay higher prices simply for convenience. I'd much rather pay an extra £whatever for the convenience of being able to go down the high street and buy the bloody things, rather than using the internet to buy then waiting 3-4 weeks for the post office to get its backside in gear and deliver them.

lord_blackfang
15-04-2008, 13:50
Osbad, I agree with you part of the way. I think it is a bit daft what they've done with, say, empire halberdiers and 40k orks (increase to £1.20 a model),

Actually, Orks went down in cost.

paul_batchelor
15-04-2008, 14:50
Not that I'm saying it's ok for any company to over charge for stuff..........But!

Miniature wargaming is not an essential living cost. It's a luxuary.
It's never been a cheap hobby.

I've been doing it since 1987 and it was expensive then. Not to mention during the early 90's recession.

It's all much of a muchness these days with rising prices across the board.

However if people can't afford to play Warhammer or 40k then it's probably a good idea to start up hordes of things or DBA.

£5 for the rules.
£15 for an army.

Job Jobbed.

Price threads are sooooooooo boring.

logan054
15-04-2008, 14:58
And with the march of plastics, the overall price of gaining an army hasn't gone up anywhere near as much as some might have you believe....

£12 for 10 Flagellants (in plakky) or £25 for 10 (in Metal)

As more and more stuff goes plastic, the price may actually lower slightly. Take the Vampire Counts. Plastic Ghouls and Dire Wolves are a significant impact in the cost of raising (lulz...undead...raising...lulz) an army....

I seem to remember a tactical squad all metal was £12 at one point (the same price they are charging for 10 plastic models), another greater was the old chaos dragon, thats arounf £70 off the website.



The thing about workshop is that they don't deal with price hikes effectively.

I think the real core of the issue is, though, that everything has gotten more expensive. While models have, so has council tax (mine by 112%), energy costs (Mine have doubled), petrol (say no more) and loads of other things. Guy on BBC1 this morning said that mince (as in the meat and not the dancing ;) ) had risen by 64% over the year, and bread by 33%. The thing you find is that these supermarkets raise their prices gradually, rather than all at once, reducing the impact of them to some degree. Rather than addopting a frankly bizzare pricing structure, GW needs to look at price rises which are percieved as reasonable, rather than just landing us with an occasional huge one which doesnt seem justified.

Oh please, what was it about british gas, erm they raised prices just before declaring they had made how many millions in profit (better than any other year), as with other bills, why do these go up, something to do with goverment getting to vote on its own pay risers and covering all their expenses (this was actually on the BBC about how much certain members of the parliament are actually claiming, i believe one had claimed £4000 just in food).

Half the reason prices raise so much is due to a few greedy people in power, nothing else (well certainly in the uk atleast).

Osbad
15-04-2008, 14:59
One thing that needs to be pointed out about indies is that they're mostly sculpting minis as a hobby. A guy sculpting and casting in his basement in his spare time has practically zero overhead costs, and he probably pays his bills with his real job. Compare this to GW - they have to pay rent for the shops, salaries for everyone from the designers to the store staff, shipping, etc.

Which is a fair point. BUT GW are many times the size of the likes of Hasslefree so while they have overheads to contend with, they have the advantage of economies of scale (so for instance it will cost them a fraction on a per-model basis of what Hasslfree pay for raw materials, packing, distribution, etc. I suspect the cost of manufacturing and wholesaling work out in GW's favour.

Where GW lose out is the cost of retail. Those stores cost an arm and a leg, and in many cases ithe mark up from wholesale to retail doesn't cover the cost of operating the stores (hence their closure of 35 stores over the last couple of years or so.)

But that's GW's choice and how they want to grow their business. Justifying the cost of models on the basis of the costs of the shop (that I never use) that the retail them to some people and on the "hobby support" (that I never use) that the store staff provide is retarded in my view. Why should I be forced to pay for all the "GW store" experience when I don't want it? That's just stupid. All I want is to get my models and go. Knowing that if that's all GW did, they could probably knock 20% off the retail price (as most online retailers do) just winds me up.

In other words, the value of GW models is 20% less than they are to someone who wants to buy them, paint them and play with them in a GW store.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
15-04-2008, 19:02
:mad:Talking about price hikes.

4 blood bowl dragon prince models use to cost me 10 pounds.

4 blood bowl dragon princes now will cost me 50 pounds as they only come in the box sets...... WTF!:mad:

A decent conversion will cost me over 30 pounds sterling with allot of parts of models I won't use. Were it wouldhave cost me 3rd of the price. F**& that.

This is maddness. I will not pay 50 quid. They have lost 10 quid from me and also a couple of hundred as well. If they fail to make a profit end of the financial year. I hope allot of heads will roll. Infact all the bloody senior management who can't even spot this stupidness.

Heads will hopefully roll and some sanity will return to GW.

Thanks

Beale

starlight
15-04-2008, 19:16
Oh wait, you're assuming sanity was ever present.:eek:

Do bear in mind that this is the first time GW has had to deal with the real downsides of business. From the time they went public they've always had ever greater piles of money coming in the door. Now they're *finally* realising (note - realising, not *understanding*) that they might actually have to *work* to keep all that money coming in.

It hasn't taken any great genius to get to where they are now, but it's going to take some pretty smart moves to get out of it.


“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.”

- Einstien

weareinalotoftroublebeale
15-04-2008, 19:24
[QUOTE=starlight;2526973]Oh wait, you're assuming sanity was ever present.:eek:

Do bear in mind that this is the first time GW has had to deal with the real downsides of business. From the time they went public they've always had ever greater piles of money coming in the door. Now they're *finally* realising (note - realising, not *understanding*) that they might actually have to *work* to keep all that money coming in.

It hasn't taken any great genius to get to where they are now, but it's going to take some pretty smart moves to get out of it."


Agreed.

But Games Workshop are to blame for their position. So I have no sympathy. only anger.

Still this is complete and utter maddness. 50 quid for more four models I actual want which where 5 times cheaper 4 months ago! Utter complete stupidness. The share holders have got a real grip on'em.

I hadn't realised this till I was going to order some today. I don't even want to look at other sections like Necromunda... I guess it's ebay and allot of strip paint for me in these areas.

Thank the heavens for ebay.

Thanks
Beale,

Blarp
15-04-2008, 19:26
:mad:Talking about price hikes.

4 blood bowl dragon prince models use to cost me 10 pounds.

4 blood bowl dragon princes now will cost me 50 pounds as they only come in the box sets...... WTF!:mad:

A decent conversion will cost me over 30 pounds sterling with allot of parts of models I won't use. Were it wouldhave cost me 3rd of the price. F**& that.

This is maddness. I will not pay 50 quid. They have lost 10 quid from me and also a couple of hundred as well. If they fail to make a profit end of the financial year. I hope allot of heads will roll. Infact all the bloody senior management who can't even spot this stupidness.

Heads will hopefully roll and some sanity will return to GW.

Thanks

Beale

:chrome:ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO (P)PRESS!:chrome:
*begin clapping in unison.*

weareinalotoftroublebeale
15-04-2008, 19:31
:skull:ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNO PPRESS!:chrome:
*begin clapping in unison.*

Here is your factual information straight from the horses mouth:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110999001&orignav=300808

Note you can no longer purchase these models individually. So start clapping if it helps :D.

Your apparant Hypno press

Beale,
What a load of crap

Templar Ben
15-04-2008, 23:42
I will say one thing regarding the actual inflation, when I stated GW paints were half the price of Vallejo paints. Now Vallejo paints are half the price of GW paints. That is a 400% price inflation relative to their closest competitor in the paint market.

I also find Vallejo paints to be a better quality than GW paints, hense I and most of the gamers I know are switching over or have already switched to vallejo. No doubt as their sales of paint start to significantly drop, they will up the price again.

In fact I stopped buying any of the GW hobby supplies some time ago, I have decided that these are too expensive compared to alternatives. A model railway store can be a good source of flock, any hardware store will have the majority of tools. Pin drills are not too hard to get hold of either, I get sable brushes for cheaper than the GW brushes.

I can get soda and chips from Wal Mart and it is much cheaper then getting them from 7-11. You just note that 7-11 is giving you that convenience mark up. It is the same way with GW. They charge twice as much for a tube of glue or 3000% more by volume for green stuff because they are selling it in the same place you get your models.


Where GW lose out is the cost of retail. Those stores cost an arm and a leg, and in many cases ithe mark up from wholesale to retail doesn't cover the cost of operating the stores (hence their closure of 35 stores over the last couple of years or so.)

But that's GW's choice and how they want to grow their business. Justifying the cost of models on the basis of the costs of the shop (that I never use) that the retail them to some people and on the "hobby support" (that I never use) that the store staff provide is retarded in my view. Why should I be forced to pay for all the "GW store" experience when I don't want it? That's just stupid. All I want is to get my models and go. Knowing that if that's all GW did, they could probably knock 20% off the retail price (as most online retailers do) just winds me up.

In other words, the value of GW models is 20% less than they are to someone who wants to buy them, paint them and play with them in a GW store.

Agreed. GW suffers because of those stores. Why pay for the store that you won't use?


Your apparant Hypno press

Beale,
What a load of crap

I am going to go out on a limb here.

I think he was making a reference to Hypnotoad from Futurama (Everyone loves Hypnotoad) and the (P)Press was in reference to Privateer Press. :)

Amnar
16-04-2008, 00:51
There price hikes wouldn't be so bad if their currency conversions weren't so damn bad. Any other Canadian customers as pissed off as I am? What is it, 110 - 120 bucks for 5 blood knights?

weareinalotoftroublebeale
16-04-2008, 00:54
I am going to go out on a limb here.

I think he was making a reference to Hypnotoad from Futurama (Everyone loves Hypnotoad) and the (P)Press was in reference to Privateer Press. :)

Oh, never heard of Futurama and know little about the other.

Man I am angry. The realisation of the price hike. Not surperb minatures they do and new stuff which i am prepared to pay for at a premuim price. But to rise the cost of 4 very old figures from 10 quid to 50 and more like this. because they cannot be arsed to sell them individually.... ... ...

In my opinion this new bloke Mark Wells should resign, followed by the rest of senior/middle managment.

For failing to have the courage and the conviction to point out the obvious and correct it.

Instead of cutting the staff from the bottom, poor things. Start axing them from the top. Oh but when you have 4 major shareholders who runt he business you can't.

I am just waiting for a poster to spin and juggle this one. absolute maddness. this is what happens when bankers are in control of something they do not understand.

The sun has set.

Beale,

The Emperor died along time ago, there is no imperium that's a folk lore and chaos rules supreme untill it destroys itself.

grickherder
16-04-2008, 08:51
I'm often the first to bash GW for their prices. But I do want to say that I see the original poster's point.

He's talking about buying units that used to be all metal and are now all plastic. So instead of really expensive metal grave guard, metal ghouls, metal dire wolves, he has cheaper plastic options.

If you compare the cost of plastic kits, they've been going up. Only where a metal miniature has been replaced by plastic has the cost gone down.

Have their been price hikes? Yes. Obviously.

This will be an interesting year. Will GW continue to jack up their prices like crazy, despite facing falling sales? They might. If GW Canada suddenly decides to start selling the typical squad/regiment box for $50 (the next logical step), I'll laugh. The Canadian dollar gets stronger and imported products go up in price and GW Canada just expects people to keep buying? Hilarious. GW Canada's prices are the same as GW Australia. That's right, in Canada you're expected to pay for shipping across the Pacific even though your packages don't get sent there.

My theory is that the price hikes will be more like repacking. Like the way Empire stuff got cut down to half the models but for more than half the price. Khorne Berzerkers down from 12 to 8 but the price per model goes up. That sort of thing.

If they're stupid enough to come out with an overt price increase, I'll find it very funny.

blongbling
16-04-2008, 08:52
belae, what i think you are missing though is that they havent raised the price of four old miniatures to £50, you also get all the extra models in there so the cost isnt £50, the cost per model is just over £2 (considering you get 12 models in there).

Im sorry you cant get the one model you wanted anymore but that doesnt mean the price for that model has gone up, all that changed is teh way you buy the model

pookie
16-04-2008, 12:14
They're also larger now. Might as well moan that a 2l bottle of Coke today is more expensive than a .25l bottle 10 years ago. :rolleyes:

hadnt reallised that they were 8x bigger.... :eyebrows:

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 01:31
belae, what i think you are missing though is that they havent raised the price of four old miniatures to £50, you also get all the extra models in there so the cost isnt £50, the cost per model is just over £2 (considering you get 12 models in there).

Im sorry you cant get the one model you wanted anymore but that doesnt mean the price for that model has gone up, all that changed is teh way you buy the model

Hi Bob and thanks,

All that has changed is the way you buy the models and other type of similar models. you are right

But the price has gone up by 5 times. This is not due to the price increase of each particular model. But the fact that you can only now get them in a fixed box set.

What has happened is a "Stealth price hike" of x5 the price of the actual models you actually wanted to get. Mind you some times more if you want an individual model.

For instance lets say I buy a Necromunda gang. I buy a box set or let say I allready have a gang.

I need one more heavy gunner for my gang. 4 months ago I was able to buy that single models and maybe a few more.

Now to buy the same model I need to fork out about 20 quid and get some models that I really don't want.

20 quid for one model that would have cost me 2.50 sterling or 3.00. Because it is now only sold in a fixed box set.

It's made my hobby in some aspects really infelxible and redundant. and has actually forced me to look for other alternatives from other compaines which I HATE doing as I am really a GW model collector.

I want to collect GW models. But I will not be forced into forking out stupid, unrealistic prices. I still can't beleive they have made this stupid error. I really lookforward to seeing senior management getting axed if that ever happens.

Put it this way when Warlords games has a full extensive range of models on for sale. I will jump ship and never return to GW. As their demeaning and insulting practices on their customers is getting a bit to much for me.

I really really hope they bring back their back bitz order service. I can understand getting rid of multi part components. But this is going to far!

I want these stealth price hikes to be removed.
I want them to do their jobs properly.
I want them to deliver a great service.
I want them to keep me retained for the next 20 years.

But me and many many other gamers keep getting shafted.

Thanks
Beale,

The sun has set on Games Workshop. It is a sad spectacle to watch.

RavenMorpheus
17-04-2008, 01:56
I don't object to paying they high prices GW demand, evidently, or I wouldn't be playing, but it does irk me that they outright lie to staff and customers..
"we make no profit on carry cases"
"We only make 1p on core and troop choices"
"We sell to staff at a lose"

Yeah.....I smell some thing. GW southend, im looking at your manager.

Heh that's funny cos tiny bunny (Colchester store blueshirt) gave me the exact same spin...

Where the problem lies with GW being expensive is not the boxed sets, they are good value for money if you want to buy in bulk and want core units.

But for myself and many other "vets" who already have an established army, buying individual units or converting models has become very expensive due to the cost of blister packs and bits - these days you have to order entire models (correct me if I'm wrong) or in some cases boxed sets just to get the 1 model/part you want, and that just makes conversions and buying single models (in the case of having to buy a boxed set) too expensive.

And then there's the price of the "specialist" units such as tanks and large models like ogryns - that's where they really sting you, last time I looked a unit of 5 ogryns costs something like £50.

That for me is not value for money.

And I'd also like to point out to the members of Warseer from countries outside of the UK that we get shafted the worst on GW prices, although I think it's been pointed out that everything has risen in price here in the UK so it's not just GW, but people outside of the UK really should stop whining about GW being expensive until they come and live here, then they'll know how expensive GW really is...

AGC
17-04-2008, 10:30
It's not just Vets that are hurt in that way. A couple of years back I priced up what it would cost for someone to buy the minium to play a game. I based it on what my friends at school had bought when starting out. (1 HQ choice, 2 troops, 1 Heavy support or Elite, 1 codex). As I remember the price came to £66. That's not including paint glue, clippers, etc.

When people start out they generally just want to dabble in something, and originally you could. You could just buy a few models as that was all that was needed for a game and slowly build up. Now it's simply uneconomic to do so.

The boxed sets in terms of quantity for cash seem reasonable, until you realise it's not actually that good a choice. The eldar battle force, for example, only has one squad of guardians and no Autarch or Farseers or Warlock. So you couldn't actually use it as an army. You would need buy an HQ seperately.

Huw_Dawson
17-04-2008, 10:37
You know what?

I DON'T CARE ABOUT PRICE HIKES.

I can still afford the hobby despite being on £20 a week disposable income. Hence, in my situation GW is not expensive. People are slinging mud at GW just because, like when governments raise taxes, people like some on this thread treat it as an excuse to deride a company whose buisness practices are complex.

- Huw

Brother Loki
17-04-2008, 11:14
Beale. You'll probably find that all those team members come out of the same mould (since they were originally made to be sold together), so if you buy 4 of one model, they're left with 4 of each of the other team members in stock. If someone else wants that model, thay might have to cast up a whole new team, adding to their stock backlog. It's things like this that the scaling back of bitz and individual models is meant to address.

Try buying individual models from Foundry. You can't, you have to buy a pack, so if you want multiples of a particular figure you need to buy two packs. GW are not alone in this. Most other figure manufacturers don't do bitz services - although Privateer now does.

Try looking for your dragon princes on ebay perhaps? Or put a wanted post in the trading forum here on Warseer.

Also, give http://www.wargamesemporium.co.uk/ a call. They have lots of second hand GW miniatures, they might have the ones you're looking for.

grickherder
17-04-2008, 11:29
People are slinging mud at GW just because, like when governments raise taxes, people like some on this thread treat it as an excuse to deride a company whose buisness practices are complex.

Complexity is irrelevant. A hundred excuses why GW should raise their prices are all irrelevant. Customers simply buy what they are willing to buy, based on the price. They don't care (for the most part) what costs and whatnot GW has. They want a good product at a good price. As a customer I don't care that a 2005 price hike went to cover Kirby's millions in bonuses as CEO.

Don't care.

But if the price goes up and I don't think it's good value for the money anymore they can voice that concern. It's not mud slinging at all. It's simply the market speaking.

And looking at GW's falling sales, closing 10% of their stores, cutting their dividend, laying off tons of staff and their investors valuing their stock at less than half of what it used to go for, the market is speaking quite loudly.

blongbling
17-04-2008, 12:40
TK didnt get millions in bnous...exaggerations abound

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 13:25
Beale. You'll probably find that all those team members come out of the same mould (since they were originally made to be sold together), so if you buy 4 of one model, they're left with 4 of each of the other team members in stock. If someone else wants that model, thay might have to cast up a whole new team, adding to their stock backlog. It's things like this that the scaling back of bitz and individual models is meant to address.

Try buying individual models from Foundry. You can't, you have to buy a pack, so if you want multiples of a particular figure you need to buy two packs. GW are not alone in this. Most other figure manufacturers don't do bitz services - although Privateer now does.

Try looking for your dragon princes on ebay perhaps? Or put a wanted post in the trading forum here on Warseer.

Also, give http://www.wargamesemporium.co.uk/ a call. They have lots of second hand GW miniatures, they might have the ones you're looking for.

Hi Loki, thanks very much! for the advice much apprecaited.


On the quick subject of Tom Kirby getting paid millions in 2005. You are correct I am not sure the exact figure. But I remember reading his name as one of the top 10 FAT CATS in the UK of 2005. If i remember correctly there was a table and all mentioning everyone in 2005 who were deemed fat cats. You will still be able to find this source on the net I think.

Get rid of the stealth price hikes! :D
Thanks,
Beale

reds8n
17-04-2008, 14:07
And given the sizeable dividend improvements, shareholders of Imperial Tobacco, Johnston Press, London Stock Exchange and Games Workshop perhaps shouldn't begrudge the bumper bonuses paid to their bosses. (http://www.fool.co.uk/qualiport/2005/qualiport050726.htm)

blongbling
17-04-2008, 14:15
deleted after the last post got there before

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 14:47
And given the sizeable dividend improvements, shareholders of Imperial Tobacco, Johnston Press, London Stock Exchange and Games Workshop perhaps shouldn't begrudge the bumper bonuses paid to their bosses. (http://www.fool.co.uk/qualiport/2005/qualiport050726.htm)

That's the one! I think I read that one in a paper.


Going to explain this one properly although I really want to stay on topic but I feel that it should be explained properly:

That statement above is stating that actually it is probably ok that Tom Kirby got this bonus. Beacause they had paid high dividends to their shareholders (who most of them are FAT CATS). It is common and accepted practise that if the shareholders (mainly banks and finanical firms) get their cut and the cut is good then over high bonuses are accepted. So lets look at this in perspective here. Anyways Tom kirby can take as much as he wants I don't care as long as they are making a profit and executing sound business decisons not the clown act that we are watching now.

Now if Kirby just cut his salary by half down to 125K or more if he is still on that (take one for the team). They could have made a profit! Instead of posting a loss at Xmas of a 190k I think. Or more to the point of this thread... remove the price hikes especially the stealth ones.

We can still dream eh.

Thanks
Beale

The sun has set on Games Workshop, it is a sad spectacle to watch.

Huw_Dawson
17-04-2008, 16:39
That statement above is stating that actually it is probably ok that Tom Kirby got this bonus.

Massive bonuses are a staple in buisness. Stating a flaw that is known to exist is a logical fallacy.


Beacause they had paid high dividends to their shareholders (who most of them are FAT CATS).

Despite Tom Kirby being the main shareholder, and he being a self confessed Gamer?

Also, please provide a list of all the major shareholders and prove that most of them are completely disinterested in Wargaming. Otherwise your statement is based on opinion and conjecture, a straw man arguement and therefor a logical fallacy.


It is common and accepted practise that if the shareholders (mainly banks and finanical firms) get their cut and the cut is good then over high bonuses are accepted. So lets look at this in perspective here.

Basing a judgement on common practice is a logical fallacy.


Anyways Tom kirby can take as much as he wants I don't care as long as they are making a profit and executing sound business decisons not the clown act that we are watching now.

This is also silly - we have already discussed that neither of us know what is going on inside GW or why they made those decisions of 3 years ago that put them in trouble last year. So we can't call it a clown act, as it would require a buisness analyst with some spare time to properly weigh up their decisions.


Now if Kirby just cut his salary by half down to 125K or more if he is still on that (take one for the team). They could have made a profit!

Yes, he takes a massive price cut and the market DOESN'T see it as a crude attempt to post a profit rather than a loss. Economists don't invest or decry based on simple figures given out at the end of reports, they look where all that money is going and then make a decision about the state of the company. Why do you think that government reports on industry take so long to come out?


Instead of posting a loss at Xmas of a 190k I think. Or more to the point of this thread... remove the price hikes especially the stealth ones.

So you're basically flogging the same dead horse that Warseer has been for the last 5 years.


The sun has set on Games Workshop, it is a sad spectacle to watch.

In my logical opinion? No it is not. Please stop fishing for attacks in the well of Warseer with this statement.


---

Now let us examine some basic economics - how do Games Workshop's prices compare with others in the industry?

Let us take two new Games Workshop products:

10 Plastic Skeleton Warriors: £12 - £1.20 a minature.
Konrad Von Carstein - £7

Now, I am going to compare the prices of these minatures with ones for the same scale.

Foundry
10 metal infantry models would cost you £20. £2 a minature.
One single character will cost you between £5-£10
Not too sure if these have VAT added - I assume so.

Privateer Press
I struggled to find a decent comparison with GW's size models, but on average they were selling for around £3.20 a minature when they came in sets of more than one or two.
One character will cost you around £5 - £10.
(These are based on US prices, and therefore to count in the UK you must add VAT - This gives prices of £3.75 or between £5.90 and £11.85 for single minatures.)

Rackham
Basic boxes of AT-43 troopers sell at £15 - That is £2.50 a minature (£2.94 inc VAT)
A single character is £5. (£5.90 inc VAT)


----

So, what does that prove? From a very brief pass over minature prices, I would say GW's minatures are STUPIDLY CHEAP in comparison to the same sort of sized models from other ranges. Foundry beat them on some things, lose on others.

I mean, £1.20 for a plastic minature may sound a lot, compare that with a single prepainted plastic from Rackham - nearly £3 a minature!

----

And, because I am insistent on laying down the smacketh on Price topics once and for all:

Box of Minias Tirith Warriors - £15. 24 Models.

That is a price of 62p a model. 62p. I'll say that in big letters.

GAMES WORKSHOP CHARGE 62P A MINATURE IN SOME BOXES.

Now, let us compare that to a couple other manufacturers who sell lots and lots of minatures in a single box: Warlord Games and Wargames Factory.

Warlord Games - 30 romans for £17. That is 56p a minature.
Wargames Factory (that has admittedly has pretty low quality plastics) - 32p a model (Inc VAT 36p)

So, the moral of the story? If you want great deals, don't go for the big expensive ranges. Go for the smaller ranges, like LoTR and the plastic historical market.

For what GW does, GW sells them damn reasonably comparing other buisness'.

- Huw

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 21:20
"QUOTE=Huw_Dawson;2532486]Massive bonuses are a staple in buisness. Stating a flaw that is known to exist is a logical fallacy."

What you just said is logical fallacy.

Despite Tom Kirby being the main shareholder, and he being a self confessed Gamer?

What you just said is logical fallacy. He is not the main shareholder he only owns 7%.

Also, please provide a list of all the major shareholders and prove that most of them are completely disinterested in Wargaming. Otherwise your statement is based on opinion and conjecture, a straw man arguement and therefor a logical fallacy.

Ok here goes:

Legal & General over 20%
Phoniex Assest over 20%
One other bank and another group of financers. You know you only have to look at the interm statements and shareholding statements which are PUBLIC information to find out. So stop stating logical fallacies please. There are 4 major shareholders who own over 75% of the shares THEY ARE NOT SELF CONFESSED GAMERS.

"Basing a judgement on common practice is a logical fallacy."

What you just said is a logical fallacy

This is also silly - we have already discussed that neither of us know what is going on inside GW or why they made those decisions of 3 years ago that put them in trouble last year. So we can't call it a clown act, as it would require a buisness analyst with some spare time to properly weigh up their decisions.

.... Yes we have already gone through this. So I am not going to add please check the credit crunch thread as I am trying my upmost best to remain on topic whilst replying back to you sir.

"Yes, he takes a massive price cut and the market DOESN'T see it as a crude attempt to post a profit rather than a loss. Economists don't invest or decry based on simple figures given out at the end of reports, they look where all that money is going and then make a decision about the state of the company. Why do you think that government reports on industry take so long to come out?"

The problem is being a PLC. If it was a private company and it was run to make a profit and the hobby allot of things could be corrected. The short term expansion was good but they are getting a killing in the long term by being run by banks + financial firms who are making the bad decisions


So you're basically flogging the same dead horse that Warseer has been for the last 5 years.

Oh man... if you read my statment correctly I am not condoning the fact that he made allot of money!! I am stating a series of facts to inform those of the truth. Instead of the corperate culture spin I read from some posts.

In my logical opinion? No it is not. Please stop fishing for attacks in the well of Warseer with this statement.

In your logical fallacy of an opinion? Or do you want me to stop using that. Cause I can get all philosophcal like yourself.
Look if I had any hatred ok fair point. If I want to atack GW fair point. I feel neither of those hostilities. I am pointing out my opinion which you seem so threatened by. Infact my point comes from saddness and nostalgia and in no way or form is an attack. But my opnion of the sad state of affairs GW is in.

.
---

Now let us examine some basic economics - how do Games Workshop's prices compare with others in the industry?

Let us take two new Games Workshop products:

10 Plastic Skeleton Warriors: £12 - £1.20 a minature.
Konrad Von Carstein - £7

So, what does that prove? From a very brief pass over minature prices, I would say GW's minatures are STUPIDLY CHEAP in comparison to the same sort of sized models from other ranges. Foundry beat them on some things, lose on others.

I mean, £1.20 for a plastic minature may sound a lot, compare that with a single prepainted plastic from Rackham - nearly £3 a minature!

Thank for that example. Much appreciated. I agree with you. Now see it from my point of view:

I am a games workshop model collector. Who also plays their game. I don't give a damn about their competitors. I am use to a fantastic flexible service that use to cater to me and all other hobbyists. Now when I could purchase four models for just 10 to 12 quid only 4 months ago. Which will cost me now 50 quid. I as a customer feel insulted and very let down! and very angry.

I do not dispute that they have value for money models. Infact I praise that. But doing one great thing or many. Doesn't mean I forgive them when the royally cock things up!

Doing stealth price hike and charging me 5-10 times the value of a model because now it is in a fixed box set is wrong, ill thought out and plain and simple stupid/incompetent. Cause you know what me and many others will spend less instead of more.

I know you don't work for GW. But let me tell you this good sir. Your statements breathes GW corperate culture which is similar to other corperate cultures when they feel threatened. Very defensive to the point of fanatical disbelief in its own folly. Instead of changing,listening & delivering.

Yes I am well informed thats why bankers, councilors, lawyers & corporate zombies hate me and I make a good buck out of them. Because I don't use fancey words or try to elude from the point. I state the obvious whether you like it or not and I do not stand up for the millionaires (Tom Kirby) but for those who pay their hard earned cash in compaines like his (and my hard earned cash too!).




- Huw[/QUOTE]

Sir I will state what I want. It is my right.

Thanks
Beale

The Sun has Set on Games Workshop, It is a sad spectacle to watch.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-04-2008, 21:29
The Sun has Set on Games Workshop, It is a sad spectacle to watch.[/COLOR]

Hardly I'm afraid.

2 to 3 duff years do not a company wreck.

Vic
17-04-2008, 21:37
Why is everyone so quick to nail the GW coffin shut?? the old girl still has a lot of life left in her....

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 21:37
Hardly I'm afraid.

2 to 3 duff years do not a company wreck.

Hi,
ok.

I did not say the company is wrecked.
I did not say the company has gone bust.
I did not say the company has gone into adminstration.

When the sun set on the Bristish Empire. The Great Britain get wrecked?
No it just lost it's status as a world power, people weren't as prosperous as others had become and it's world dominance had started to diminished.

But it is interesting how threatening this statement appears to some....

Look if GW makes a rebound in the next couple of years and sets things right. I'll be the first one to jump up in joy and hand over allot of cash.

Thanks

Beale
The Sun has set of games Workshop. It is a sad spectacle to watch.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-04-2008, 21:45
We did actually. Struggle to make ends meet, massive problems with housing, gone from being the richest, most powerful nation to being one full of scum who can't be arsed to get a job and leech off an over burdened state.


Why is everyone so quick to nail the GW coffin shut?? the old girl still has a lot of life left in her....

I honestly don't know. But thats Student Mentality for you. If it's big, successful and dominating, hate it.

Komnenos
17-04-2008, 21:57
Hi,
ok.

I did not say the company is wrecked.
I did not say the company has gone bust.
I did not say the company has gone into adminstration.

When the sun set on the Bristish Empire. The Great Britain get wrecked?
No it just lost it's status as a world power, people weren't as prosperous as others had become and it's world dominance had started to diminished.

But it is interesting how threatening this statement appears to some....

Look if GW makes a rebound in the next couple of years and sets things right. I'll be the first one to jump up in joy and hand over allot of cash.

Thanks

Beale
The Sun has set of games Workshop. It is a sad spectacle to watch.

Does that mean that you are selling the GW stocks you claim to own?

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 22:01
"I honestly don't know. But thats Student Mentality for you. If it's big, successful and dominating, hate it."

Does that mean that you are selling the GW stocks you claim to own?



WTF.... I'm sorry did I say that? Are we now talking about my privately owned shares......

Or are we traying to derail off the topic here about the stealth price hikes?

Please remain on topic.

Thanks

Beale,
The Sun has set on Games Workshop, It is a sad spectacle to watch.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-04-2008, 22:18
It's hardly a *stealth* price rise.

It's pretty blatant really. You pay more, and get less. Ergo, blatant price rise.

On certain things.

But of course, everyone who knocks GW and whinges about the prices loves to ignore when stuff actually does get cheaper. Like, I dunno, Black Orcs, Grave Guard, Flagellants, Dire Wolves, Ghouls, Dwarf Miners....need I go on? Overall, the price of raising an army really hasn't gone up that much over the years.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 22:29
It's hardly a *stealth* price rise.

It's pretty blatant really. You pay more, and get less. Ergo, blatant price rise.

On certain things.

But of course, everyone who knocks GW and whinges about the prices loves to ignore when stuff actually does get cheaper. Like, I dunno, Black Orcs, Grave Guard, Flagellants, Dire Wolves, Ghouls, Dwarf Miners....need I go on? Overall, the price of raising an army really hasn't gone up that much over the years.

It wasn't blatant to me. I only found out two days ago, When I decided to order a few blood bowl figures. Which i didn't in the end:(.

I think the

Black Orcs price is great :D
Grave guard price is great :D
Flagellants price is great :D
Dire Wolves price is great
and so on.

But make no mistake about this. It is no SUBSTITUTE and does not make a difference when other items have gone up 5-10 times in value because they got rid of the bitz order. because you can only purchase them in fixed box sets. I understand getting rid of multipart components. But one piece BB figures or Necromunda figures come on and what a price hike.

What you are suggesting is that it is great to deliver one aspect of service and totally screw up another without thinking it through.

Thanks
Beale,
The sun has set on Games Workshop, it is a sad spectacle to watch.

grickherder
17-04-2008, 23:24
TK didnt get millions in bnous...exaggerations abound

From Motley fool uk:

Tom Kirby - Accumlated bonus: 2,357,000 (GBP) as of May 2005.

But, as I said before. I don't care about their internal matters when I'm buying something.

I want a good product for a good price.

Mad Doc Grotsnik gets it. He listed all sorts of stuff that has gotten cheaper because they switched to plastic. Cool! Do more of that. But that doesn't change the fact that other things have skyrocketed in price. As well, the rules get adjusted occasionally to demand more models in the army. Cost per figure going down because it goes to plastic? Cool. Need 40% more ork boyz for the same points? Less cool (from a monetary standpoint only). All the while GW continues to price things based on game performance instead of production costs.

The original poster is wrong to condemn all those complaining about the price hikes. People are free to value things as they want and if it gets outside of what they are satisfied with, they can voice their concerns and many have stopped buying (ref. GW's sales figures).

How many times have we hoed this row before? For years on here and Portent before it, people have been saying that GW might raise it's price beyond what people will pay and then they will stop buying. GW had the good fortune/business sense to snap up the LOTR license. This meant that money was coming in which masked the dwindling unit sales in 40k and WFB are starting to come home to roost.

GW admitted in their own financial reports to being fat and lazy. They acknowledged the decline in revenue from falling LOTR sales in the post-movie environment. Now they're trying to find the perfect balance of number of stores, staff, reorganizing internal structures, etc., etc., to get back to profitability. The question is whether or not they are going to fix the right things and stop compounding the problems that got them there in the first place.

People will also bring up the slowing economy. It makes even less sense to jack up the price of your goods in the face of a shrinking customer base that turned out to be more price sensitive than they thought.

starlight
17-04-2008, 23:40
On Topic, or don't Post here.

The Topic is GW's Price Hikes. Posts about anything else should be made in their own Threads.

starlight
The Warseer Inquisition

Mireadur
17-04-2008, 23:52
I also find Vallejo paints to be a better quality than GW paints, hense I and most of the gamers I know are switching over or have already switched to vallejo. No doubt as their sales of paint start to significantly drop, they will up the price again.

I remember 13 years ago when i began in the hobby Vallejo paints quality was horrible compared to GW. Other than that, i dont buy anything from GW since prices are indeed extremely expensive.

weareinalotoftroublebeale
17-04-2008, 23:57
I remember 13 years ago when i began in the hobby Vallejo paints quality was horrible compared to GW. Other than that, i dont buy anything from GW since prices are indeed extremely expensive.

I disagree, Allot of their plastic boxes are value for money. What pisses me off is what I have said in my previous posts in this thread about the price hikes:mad:.

Thanks,
Beale

Mireadur
18-04-2008, 00:07
Well i meant i dont buy ''hobby'' stuff from GW, its obvious im still buying their minis and rulebooks :p

About the global increases in Greed and egoism here, in Spain, in 2006 energy companies finished with massive percentage increases in their benefits It mabe was 100% more profit. Yet they wanted to increase the power taxes by a 30% for 2007. Popular clamour and irony forced goverment to veto such measure...

weareinalotoftroublebeale
18-04-2008, 01:11
QUOTE=Mireadur;2533608]Well i meant i dont buy ''hobby'' stuff from GW, its obvious im still buying their minis and rulebooks :p

Oh ok :D I stand corrected.

About the global increases in Greed and egoism here, in Spain, in 2006 energy companies finished with massive percentage increases in their benefits It mabe was 100% more profit. Yet they wanted to increase the power taxes by a 30% for 2007. Popular clamour and irony forced goverment to veto such measure...[/QUOTE]

I admire the Spanish. I feel in the UK we tend to put up and or shut up or told to. whether by corperations, governments. Refering to the GW prices hikes I draw the same line. If more people where proactive with their anger at stuff like this. The corperate thugs wouldn't get away with so much. Such as GW bitz being slashed and prices going up on models in fixed box sets.

However I do have a firm belief in the far grim future there is a little bit of hope! (Not war).

"Get rid of the Stealth price Hikes. Keep the premuim price."

Thanks,

Beale

grickherder
18-04-2008, 09:49
Okay, I was just looking at the US Online store and found something I must give GW credit for:

Bloodletters of Khorne. 10 for $22.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=303060&orignav=300895&ParentID=260405&GameNav=10
Daemonettes of Slaanesh 10 for $22.
http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=303061&orignav=300895&ParentID=260406&GameNav=10

Now if this price is only for direct order advance orders that would suck. But if these boxes actually are $22 for 10, that's a great price. I'm not a fan of the daemonettes, but think the Bloodletters look great.

Huw_Dawson
18-04-2008, 10:38
As I have said previously, GW's "price hikes" are irrelevent when compared to the rest of Wargaming. You are paying similar prices wherever you go, and you get what you pay for.

My only price gripe are the 40k tanks, which are a pretty select bunch and are not all the same. (Tau prices are fair, Space Marines - like all their range - are gloriously overpriced. But who cares.)

- Huw

catbarf
18-04-2008, 11:05
As I have said previously, GW's "price hikes" are irrelevent when compared to the rest of Wargaming. You are paying similar prices wherever you go, and you get what you pay for.

:eyebrows:

3 Tyranid Warriors- $35

6 Arachnid Warriors- $20

That's quite a difference.

GW is by far one of the most expensive wargaming companies in existence.

Huw_Dawson
18-04-2008, 15:06
3 Tyranid Warriors- $35

6 Arachnid Warriors- $20


Ouch! I can see why some of you US lot are more volatile than us Brits! :p At least you guys have the War Store, so that knocks it down to about $29... which at least is the same as the UK price, which is what I am trying to deal in here... but hey, at least I got smacked with an example rather than being drawn into a pointless arguement...

Then, I look your Warriors of Minas Tirith box, and I see that it is about 4$ LESS than the UK price. Add in War Store savings, and that is stupidly cheap for 24 models. So I guess it evens out! :p I personally find the Tyranid Warriors box stupidly expensive anyway - one example of when prices are TOO high for GW. I think that GW get a bit silly when you start to delve into a few of the 40K armies, but then again they have to be doing something right, otherwise the economic report I read is predicting GW to start growing again starting next year, and be back right on track by 2010.

Anywho, Beale, I've reported your post striking back at me as flamebait.

- Huw

weareinalotoftroublebeale
18-04-2008, 16:28
Anywho, Beale, I've reported your post striking back at me as flamebait.

- Huw

Flamebait? awwww I just think you are sore :p. You really inspire me with these new words I keep learning of you. Thanks. If I remember correctly I was replying to your array of questions from one of my posts, if I can't do that well..lol is the right expression. But if anything does come my way I think morderators are intelligent and informed enough to make their own decisions. Without you giving me the heads up. It doesn't accomplish anything and you will not provoke me.

BTW the US prices are darn good! A shame about the Uk ones.

Thanks for the heads up!

Beale,