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syntax234
13-04-2008, 04:51
I was recently thinking about dropping my paint scheme for the 39th Cadian and making them 31st Harakoni Warhawks. What I want to know is whether or not the 4+ save for carapace armor and drop troop option is worth the 400 points it would cost (20 troops times 20 extra points each for carapace armor). I like the paint scheme and it would be nice to be something other than Cadian, but i just dont know if 4+ carapace armor save is worth 400 more points than a 5+ flak vest save

Chaoschrist
13-04-2008, 07:54
Well, you could keep in mind that there's a lot of marines players and their standard weapon has AP5, which will pretty much kill your guard outright if you're toting a 5+ save.

Also, Tau, (dark) Eldar and even certain IG models (Stormtroopers) have standard issue AP5 weapons.

That's pretty much the reason why it got me to having a Carapace armor wearing IG army (Vostroyans)

bdo
13-04-2008, 07:55
and dont forget that nid firepower has also a lot of AP5 weaponry.

Koryphaus
13-04-2008, 08:08
I was recently thinking about dropping my paint scheme for the 39th Cadian and making them 31st Harakoni Warhawks. What I want to know is whether or not the 4+ save for carapace armor and drop troop option is worth the 400 points it would cost (20 troops times 20 extra points each for carapace armor). I like the paint scheme and it would be nice to be something other than Cadian, but i just dont know if 4+ carapace armor save is worth 400 more points than a 5+ flak vest save

Ok, do you mean you've got 20 units (200 Guardsmen) recieving this upgrade, or 20 troops (2 units of guardsmen)?

Spacker
13-04-2008, 09:08
Ok, do you mean you've got 20 units (200 Guardsmen) recieving this upgrade, or 20 troops (2 units of guardsmen)?

It's unlikely to be 2 units - that's not a legal list.

And it wouldn't be 200 guardsmen either - command squads are only 5 men, and for every 2-5 infantry squads you need 1 command squad, plus a hq command squad, heavy weapon and special weapon squads are only 6 strong, and vet squads tend to be taken in units of 5 rather than 10. 20 "troops" (meaning Guard Infantry squads here) in a legal list could be as few as 151 guardsmen (if my calcs are correct and the OP isn't using the strict Harakoni doctrines).

Using the Harakoni doctrines, to get 20 units that would require the Carapace equipment to be applied that would be around 1450 points total (1 HQ, 1 Hardened Vets, 6 Infantry Platoons of 2 squads each) of guardsmen including the carapace cost, which makes 400pts quite a sizeable percentage of the cost. That's a total of 160 guardsmen (assuming min sized hardened vets squad).

syntax234
14-04-2008, 00:34
It's unlikely to be 2 units - that's not a legal list.

And it wouldn't be 200 guardsmen either - command squads are only 5 men, and for every 2-5 infantry squads you need 1 command squad, plus a hq command squad, heavy weapon and special weapon squads are only 6 strong, and vet squads tend to be taken in units of 5 rather than 10. 20 "troops" (meaning Guard Infantry squads here) in a legal list could be as few as 151 guardsmen (if my calcs are correct and the OP isn't using the strict Harakoni doctrines).

Using the Harakoni doctrines, to get 20 units that would require the Carapace equipment to be applied that would be around 1450 points total (1 HQ, 1 Hardened Vets, 6 Infantry Platoons of 2 squads each) of guardsmen including the carapace cost, which makes 400pts quite a sizeable percentage of the cost. That's a total of 160 guardsmen (assuming min sized hardened vets squad).

WHOA! Sorry. I was thinking unit meant individual soldiers. One more question though, do I have to model them differently than the standard cadian soldiers for it to be carapace?

Latro_
14-04-2008, 00:43
In general yes, However you might get away with it if your group is pretty lax, e.g. let you proxy defilers with coke cans etc.
Search around the M&T forum, I seem to remember a guide or two on making normal cadians have carapace with a lil greenstuff.

catbarf
14-04-2008, 00:52
WHOA! Sorry. I was thinking unit meant individual soldiers. One more question though, do I have to model them differently than the standard cadian soldiers for it to be carapace?

Hang on, you thought it meant 20pts per model to give them carapace?!?

syntax234
14-04-2008, 02:37
Hang on, you thought it meant 20pts per model to give them carapace?!?

yeah. sorry. misread the dex

syntax234
14-04-2008, 02:41
In general yes, However you might get away with it if your group is pretty lax, e.g. let you proxy defilers with coke cans etc.
Search around the M&T forum, I seem to remember a guide or two on making normal cadians have carapace with a lil greenstuff.

HOWEVER! can I just not use carapace and use the drop troops doctrine? because that was the major selling point for me. the reason im not too keen on doing carapace is because I already have about 10 miniatures painted as the 31st harakoni helldivers and REALLY dont want to do anything to them, they came out real nice

Spacker
14-04-2008, 07:50
You can use any 5 doctrines you like (so long as you don't pick ones that prevent others being picked). So yes, if you want to drop Carapace and use something else that's fine. They won't technically be Harakoni, but I don't think anyone will mind you calling them that even though they don't have Carapace.

So if by 20 troops you meant 20 guardsmen, what's the rest of your army list? As to Carapace, yes it's 20pts per squad - and don't forget that you have to put on every Guard Infantry squad, you can't just put it on a few squads and not the rest. 20 guardsmen isn't even a single Infantry Platoon ....

syntax234
14-04-2008, 15:32
You can use any 5 doctrines you like (so long as you don't pick ones that prevent others being picked). So yes, if you want to drop Carapace and use something else that's fine. They won't technically be Harakoni, but I don't think anyone will mind you calling them that even though they don't have Carapace.

So if by 20 troops you meant 20 guardsmen, what's the rest of your army list? As to Carapace, yes it's 20pts per squad - and don't forget that you have to put on every Guard Infantry squad, you can't just put it on a few squads and not the rest. 20 guardsmen isn't even a single Infantry Platoon ....

hmmmm. i was thinking about making them a light drop infantry, so i think ill just have them be cadian (unless that conflicts with anything in the cadian doctrines)

Xenobane
14-04-2008, 15:53
hmmmm. i was thinking about making them a light drop infantry, so i think ill just have them be cadian (unless that conflicts with anything in the cadian doctrines)

It does, I'm afraid, but as someone said above - you can pick your own 5 doctrines and call your army whatever you want really. Even if you wanted to use Harakoni/ Cadian markings and so on, you could justify different doctrines by saying that your army have long been away from their homeworld and have developed a different fighting style to adapt to a new environment - maybe their new recruits have come, by necessity, from a nearby PDF with different training or something.

Anyway, it seems fine to me to make your army into a specialised version of a classic regiment. So Cadians don't tend to use drop troops. Does that really mean that no Cadian force has ever done it, anywhere? Seems tactically inflexible to me...

Spacker
14-04-2008, 16:24
hmmmm. i was thinking about making them a light drop infantry, so i think ill just have them be cadian (unless that conflicts with anything in the cadian doctrines)

Rather than stick to a named regiment, why not make up your own? Call them Bob's Airborne if you like, it doesn't matter at the end of the day. If you want to use a different mix of doctrines than the Harakoni ones, but call them Harakoni anyway, then go ahead.

My own drop troops army uses Drop Troop, Storm Troopers, Grenadiers, Carapace, and Special Weapons squads - the core troops are Storm Troopers with Valkyrie transports, elite units are Storm Trooper squads, Command Platoon has support squads made up of HW squads and spec weaps with sniper rifles all given Drop Troops and Carapace, Sentinels with Drop Troops for fast attack, and heavy support comes in the form of a Vulture and a Thunderbolt. I called them the Vorakian 501st - I have no idea where the name came from, I just sat at the PC and typed a few letters and it stuck. I may well end up switching to the Elysian D-99 list but continue to use my converted Cadian models (Elysian lasguns + Cadian respirator heads from FW) and pretend that the storm trooper models don't have carapace armour :p