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Lordsaradain
13-04-2008, 13:07
I'm mainly interested in opinions on how you would counter VC ethereal units as an Orc 'n Goblin or Empire player.
What's the best tactic of dealing with ethereal units, specifically cairn wraiths?

Spirit hosts aren't too bad, sure they can tie up anything, but at least they wont be causing as much casualties. Cairn wraiths can potentially wipe out small elite units in a single turn with a lucky banshee howl, and they fare well in close combat.

Empire nor Greenskin players have any specific magic weapons that spell etheral doom(ie D3 wound weapons) so tailoring a character to take out theses units seems to risky and expensive.

Another alternative is trying to kill these units with static CR. This might be possible, but since cairn wraiths both skirmish and have M6, it will be very hard for a ranked infantry unit to catch them. Cavalry will have an easier time doing this, but cavalry is never fielded in ranked units (except prehaps wolfriders) and expensive cavalry is VERY vunerable to the banshee howl(even more so the cheaper goblins).

So the remaining alternative is killing them with magic. The standard VC player will most like have 5 DD, prehaps even 6 if they use the Black Periapt. This means that you need to bring 2 tooled level 2 wizards to be able to get through his magic defence.

Is it possible not to go magic heavy vs counts?

Thoughs? Tips? Opinions?

Gazak Blacktoof
13-04-2008, 13:11
You don't need to beat every unit in an army to come out on top. Just try to minimise the risk the unit poses by ensuring you deploy valuable units at a distance.

Lijacote
13-04-2008, 13:17
As a Daemon Player, I serve ethereals with a side of radish.

Don't Fanatics have magic balls? Fielding a hero-level character with a magic weapon can't be all that expensive with either Greenskins or Empire... though the lack of d3 wounding weaponry is... meh. Flagellants + flank charge? :<

logan054
13-04-2008, 13:24
I think you best bet is really enough magic weapons spread across the army if you that worried about them, that or just hold them up with a unit with plenty of CR just to keep them busy while you deal with the rest of the army. Orcs boys should be able to keep them busy long enough as they are T4 as well and swordsmen with 4+ save and WS 4. As a empire player you also have light magic, this should be able to take care of these units with ease.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 13:45
It's a bit of a long shot really, but Warrior Priests and Wizards are the best bet for the Empire player. Lots of Magic Missiles and the Warrior Priests anti-unit prayer ought to do decent enough damage.

isidril93
13-04-2008, 14:25
they are special or rare so you wont be fighting much but if you do you could use a cheap hero with a item that gives him scouting and that gives his unit magical attack

but im not an empire player and as far as i know they dont have the magical attacks item

Lordsaradain
13-04-2008, 14:47
You don't need to beat every unit in an army to come out on top. Just try to minimise the risk the unit poses by ensuring you deploy valuable units at a distance.

Well since they skirmish have movement 6 their scream has a potential range of 20" meaning it is a very hard unit to avoid. And their scream spells doom for my hammer units like knights/savage orc boar boyz.



Don't Fanatics have magic balls?

No, fanatics dont have magical attacks. :(


I think you best bet is really enough magic weapons spread across the army if you that worried about them, that or just hold them up with a unit with plenty of CR just to keep them busy while you deal with the rest of the army. Orcs boys should be able to keep them busy long enough as they are T4 as well and swordsmen with 4+ save and WS 4. As a empire player you also have light magic, this should be able to take care of these units with ease.

Like I've already mentioned, due to the cairn wraiths high movement value and the fact that they skirmish, they are very hard to corner with a unit of infantry.


It's a bit of a long shot really, but Warrior Priests and Wizards are the best bet for the Empire player. Lots of Magic Missiles and the Warrior Priests anti-unit prayer ought to do decent enough damage.

Warrior priests are very fluffy when facing counts, but unfourtunatly, their bound spell is only a pitful power level 3, meaning they have little or no chance of ever getting to use their ability.


they are special or rare so you wont be fighting much but if you do you could use a cheap hero with a item that gives him scouting and that gives his unit magical attack

but im not an empire player and as far as i know they dont have the magical attacks item

The greenskins dont have any item which gives the unit magical attacks either. It's not in my armybook anyway. :P

My current conclusion on the character setup with empire is that my best bet is proably to take a magic-weapon-equipped captain, likewise a warrior priest with another magical weapon (for his DD) as well as a battle wizard with the rod of Power. The battle wizard can be lvl1 and then just used for magic defence purposes, or he can be level 2, enabling me to get off the odd spell maybe once or twice in the battle.

With the greenskins, a shaman with staff of sneaky stealing, 2 big bosses with magical weapons and a big big 'un unit with the Spirit totem.

Then I'd be able to have some magical defence and still having some decent fighty characters. Now there is just one problem remaining... how do I setup to ensure the safety of my hammer units and rid myself of the wraiths?

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 14:47
Indeed we don't.

Perhaps the best course of action is just to take the Generals head off with a couple of Cannon Rounds, and hope for the best?

Lordsaradain
13-04-2008, 14:54
Indeed we don't.

Perhaps the best course of action is just to take the Generals head off with a couple of Cannon Rounds, and hope for the best?

Or spam Hochland long rifles. :D
Could proably be quite effective, but it would also reduce the game to a very boring affair for the VC player.

Dark Dingo
13-04-2008, 14:59
Empire - arch lector on waralter does the trick backed up by a couple of light wizards.

With Orcs you have to rely on your combat characters. Black orc on wyvern with the screamin sword will normally do the trick as will the orc on boar with extra attack and the reroll axe - should chew through a unit of wraiths very quickly if you can get the charge off.

The good thing is that neither of the above is specifically tooled towards VC but are very good take-on-all-comers lists.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-04-2008, 15:22
Well since they skirmish have movement 6 their scream has a potential range of 20" meaning it is a very hard unit to avoid. And their scream spells doom for my hammer units like knights/savage orc boar boyz.


If they want to potentially damage something 20" away they're going to have to move directly toward it. Ensure that doing so means they'll get mobbed by a ranked unit or blasted by a spell.

There's not always a perfect answer to every situation so making life difficult for your opponent and forcing their hand is sometimes the best you can do.

Personally, 2 level 2 wizards is what I'll use in my greenskin army most of the time. If you're not using 2 level 2 wizards then you're going to have more combat characters to deal with ethereal units up close and you'll have to ensure they're equipped to deal with the situation by forking out for magical weapons.

Urgat
13-04-2008, 16:03
Yeah, I think I'd go with Waaaghwaaagh. Waaaghwaaagh is my savage orc warboss on wyvern, with, sword of battle, armor of gork and kickin' boots. Maybe the wyvern's attacks are lost, but Waaaghwaaagh should be way enough :p (besides,thanks to the wyvern, he's immune to terror even if he loses a fight, so he won't leg it in case of rubber choppa syndrom :p)

Orcboy_Phil
13-04-2008, 17:06
Just spend all your points on Hochland long rifles and kill his vampire general in the first turn. His army will crumble and you've nothing else to worry about.

2d6
13-04-2008, 17:11
Well since they skirmish have movement 6 their scream has a potential range of 20" meaning it is a very hard unit to avoid. And their scream spells doom for my hammer units like knights/savage orc boar boyz.


In V7 rulebook, there is no provision for skirmishers to be able to move at double speed, wraiths have to be within range of a vampire or the general to be able to march.
The rulebook has an infinite idiot loop
on p65 it says skirmishers move like individual characters, on
p72 it says see p65 characters move as skirmishers.

This alone makes the banshee much less useful than in V6 (IMO) the drop in maneuverability not compensating for the boosts (stand and scream is of limited use as you never want the unit to get charged, though the affects everybody rule is nice)

I love the wraith unit but at the moment I'm more inclined to run them without a banshee, If you do meeet a unit with a single magic weapon, you have to direct as many attacks against the wielder as possible, the banshee is a champion and often has to accept challenges, leaving the hero a free round against a soft target, in which he has little chance of being wounded.

Having said that the banshee probbably will be better vs low leadership, lizardmen/orcs & goblins etc, but I think is best left out of an all comers list

fubukii
13-04-2008, 18:03
at long as the wraiths, or spirit hosts dont get a combo charge, aor a flank you shouldnt have much to worry about from them, a single unit of swordsmen will be hardpressed to loss vs either unit, in combat.

Gobbo Lord
13-04-2008, 18:17
Do all magic itames count as having magical attacks? If so a orc big boss with sword of battle and the iornback boar (if it counts as having magical attacks/impact hits?) should do the trick and solve your movement problem.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
13-04-2008, 19:41
Having said that the banshee probbably will be better vs low leadership, lizardmen/orcs & goblins etc, but I think is best left out of an all comers list

Nonsense! The Banshee, particularly with her bodyguard of rock hard Wraiths can ow quite happily roll up a flank, seeing of pretty much anyone. Even the heaviest Cavalry have LOTS to fear from Wraiths with a Banshee. Stand and Scream can do untold damage to such small units, and being Ethereal, with 3 attacks each no less, should ensure fairly easy combats. Even if you lose the combat, it shouldn't be by too much, and next turn, they are getting squealed at by the Banshee.

If anything they are the perfect all comers regiment!

Fredmans
13-04-2008, 22:09
Ethereals are really tough as an O&G player. We play 2K all-comers lists, so I have started to include three magic weapons on mounted heros in my O&G army: Ulag's Axe, Martog's Basha and Shaga's Sword. I can then deploy them suitably depending upon where he places them, and I find it more viable than going magic heavy myself. I also have a scroll caddy who saves his scrolls to stop him from creating more spirit hosts since I have so many units.

/Fredmans

crouchingotter
13-04-2008, 22:34
Ethereals are really simple for an O&G player. Throw a large ranked unit at them.

Big Night Goblin units are great for this. You'll win by static CR. Rank bonus. Outnumber. Banner and Musician.

That's a CR of 5 or 6 in the event of a tie. Eventually those ethereals will die and you don't even have to hit them.

2d6
13-04-2008, 23:14
Nonsense! The Banshee, particularly with her bodyguard of rock hard Wraiths can ow quite happily roll up a flank, seeing of pretty much anyone. Even the heaviest Cavalry have LOTS to fear from Wraiths with a Banshee. Stand and Scream can do untold damage to such small units, and being Ethereal, with 3 attacks each no less, should ensure fairly easy combats. Even if you lose the combat, it shouldn't be by too much, and next turn, they are getting squealed at by the Banshee.

If anything they are the perfect all comers regiment!

The problem with using them as a flanking unit is that they can only crawl along at 6" a turn, unless supported by another vampire or your general is within 12" of that flank.

No-one is going to charge the unit, unless they have a magic weapon, and in that case you really don't want to be in that fight, especially if you have a banshee due to the problem of challenges, sure you MIGHT get really lucky on the stand and scream, but thats 175pts+ your gambling on it.

I do think the regiment is a good all comers, but I can see too many situations where you'd be much better off with the extra wraith.

I've had some games with the previous list where banshees were superb, but even rolling an average 7 every turn she will have very limited impact against many armies out there, Used the new unit once and the banshee failed to inflict any casualties at all against an empire army, main problems being lack of mobility of the new unit, and failing to roll higher than 7 for screams, For 25 points less i would have got much more value from having the additional wraith.

Spirit
13-04-2008, 23:51
Ethereals are really simple for an O&G player. Throw a large ranked unit at them.

Big Night Goblin units are great for this. You'll win by static CR. Rank bonus. Outnumber. Banner and Musician.

That's a CR of 5 or 6 in the event of a tie. Eventually those ethereals will die and you don't even have to hit them.

how exactly does someone throw a M4 ranked unit against a M6 skirmish unit?

this is assuming your not playing a tool.

And infact, who cares? the wraiths have about 15 attacks needing 3's then 2's. The night goblins will be dead or fleeing in 2 turns, if not one.

Urgat
14-04-2008, 00:52
Ethereals are really simple for an O&G player. Throw a large ranked unit at them.

Big Night Goblin units are great for this. You'll win by static CR. Rank bonus. Outnumber. Banner and Musician.

That's a CR of 5 or 6 in the event of a tie. Eventually those ethereals will die and you don't even have to hit them.

Actually, I don't think it's too difficult for them to kill 5 or 6 gobs a turn. Besides, they cause terror, and terror ain't a good thing when we're talking about gobs.

Darkangeldentist
14-04-2008, 02:02
I have been using Wraiths and Banshees with the new list and must admit they can be awesome. However they are also very fragile.

Small units are extremely nasty for flank charges but largely useless on their own except against skirmishers. Large units are expensive and can disappear quickly after just one crappy round of combat.

So don't worry about them too much. They will be one unit, maybe two. For the most part vampire players won't want to risk these units anymore than you want to meet them. So trying to get the odds close to 50/50 will often be enough of a deterent, stopping them trying to play havoc with army.

A couple of level two wizards can be all you need if they roll some magic missiles. Empire can do wonders with a warrior priest or arch lector. Their prayers are power level 4 I believe (now at least). So these can deal plenty of harm to such opponents.

Have faith in decent armour or toughness. Goblins won't work in my opinion. Terror isn't good for them and much worse is the high number of attacks ethereal units have can see lots of them die very quickly. (I had two wraiths beat off a fully ranked unit of goblins.) Ethereals can't generate static combat resolution so must kill stuff to win combat.

So instead try to minimise the chances of them killing anyone. Any unit of knights has a decent chance of not losing more than a single model. Numbers and standard mean unless they kill people the undead will lose combat and start crumbling. Just one character with a magic weapon causing one or two wounds will swing the combat greatly in your favour once you take crumbling into acount.

Irisado
14-04-2008, 15:03
Magic is the key to taking out ethereal units when playing the Empire.

I agree that the Arch Lector and Warrior Priests are good choices. To avoid their prayers being dispelled, save their casting attempts until towards the end of the magic phase, and draw out the VC player's dispel dice with other bound items (Orb of Thunder anyone?), and spells from Wizards.

I personally always take a Light Wizard Lord when facing Vampire Counts (in games of 3000 points or more). Light magic is very nasty against the Undead!

Bright Wizards are also good for blasting ethereal creatures into the ether, especially if they use Fireball or Fiery Blast, since they will be able to stay well out the charge range of the Wraiths and the Banshee's howl.

The Banshee's howl can be deadly. She wiped out my entire Pistolier unit in one turn, so watch out for it!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 17:35
Fiery Conversation can be another good one against Wraiths. Granted, it's a little touch and go as to how effective it will actually be, but on the other hand, there is every chance of it wiping them out completely....

Von Wibble
14-04-2008, 17:47
Warrior priests are very fluffy when facing counts, but unfourtunatly, their bound spell is only a pitful power level 3, meaning they have little or no chance of ever getting to use their ability.



Power level 4 not 3.

Fiery Convocation (was that a deliberate typo?) is on average worse than fiery blast. Imo you should get the hits on the roll you lose to the opponent in the rolloff as well as your other hits.

For empire I agree with magic weapons and bound spells/magic. No amulet of light or respendence of luminescents for my Ostermark League.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 17:51
It was indeed a deliberate typo. Can also be called 'Heated Debate'

And I did say it was risky. But in itself, that can be useful, as your opponent might well underestimate it's potential potency, and thus leave himself prone to premature dewraithification of his force... And thats a fair old chunk of VPs as well!

wolfenstein
14-04-2008, 18:38
one word...
...dryads

Mad Doc Grotsnik
14-04-2008, 18:39
one word...
...dryads

I dunno dude...although a lot more expensive than the Dryads, the Wraiths might just cut them down a little too easily. Ethereal Creatures dish out magic attacks, and they have more attacks, and more wounds (2 each) than you do...

Malorian
14-04-2008, 18:47
Dryads have messed my cairn wraiths up bad once... I aviod them now for sure... If I get the charge on them I can do ok, but I'd rather fight something that can't hurt me (wardancers) and leave the knights to deal with the dryads.

Orcboy_Phil
14-04-2008, 19:48
If where talking about none empire and orc armys now, may I suggest ratling guns. That unit is so (more) dead (than before).

isidril93
14-04-2008, 20:02
light magic

magic weapons (maybe a hero with a magic bow)