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Aeolian
14-04-2008, 02:42
Told to start a new thread so..


1.) Tau technology advances incredibly fast. If Tau can't build it today, they might do so tomorrow. So ruling out one technology (with the possible exception of warp or psionic technology) contradicts Tau fluff.

Yeah I guess you're right. Tau technology advances fast.. Don't you love handwavium?


2.) Tau have the biggest selection of and experience with battle suits. Every army has at least one (commander suit 1+). They are standard technology, common and have a wide selection of add ons (stealth, jetpacks/anti-grav, force fields, marker lights, wide selection of weapon systems up to rail guns). Battle suits are a main focus of current Earth caste R&D.

Battle suits have very little to do with Titans. Moot point.


3.) Only recently they met Titans. First they were unprepared, then on Taros they made a surprise attack with flyers, next time the opponent might be prepared for this. With Apocalypse, the number of Titans in battles increases, and Earth caste has to come up with an alternative solution fighting them. Either a super heavy tank or a giant battle suit.

Again, nothing there at all about current ability to build them at all.


4.) Tau already have: Heavy Railguns and other big weapon systems, basic battle suit technology, big engines that allow VTOL and hoverin gin the air (Orca, Manta) and help with mobility and leg construction (no need to walk), AI, drone controllers for clouds of shield and marker drones, stealth technology to lessen need for clunky armour (see Eldar Revenant).

I can see where that comes in with the mechanics of fielding a million ton walker.

Now give me some real reasons or don't post.

Yarick Zan
14-04-2008, 03:12
Firstly I want to point out that this topic is entirely inane. You are making it purely to argue with anyone for the sake of it. You have yet to produce reasons yourself why they can't. You accuse people of what you call handwavium, when you yourself are in fact guilty of it. You say we have to prove to you beyond a doubt in your mind that they can have one at all. Well the fact is we don't have to satisfy you, we just have to satisfy ourselves. What you are asking is pretty much going to end up something akin to Russell's teapot.

Now to a more on topic part.

Firstly I am getting sick and tired of you constantly accusing people of handwavium when in fact you have been guilty of it all the while.

How do you figure Battlesuits have nothing to do with Titans? Tell me how they have exactly nothing to do with each other? Support your arguments or they are moot. Here is what I say though, battlesuits are advanced robotic weapons platforms with an advanced interface between pilot and machine. According to fluff, this is what a titan crew has, an advanced interface between man and machine. The Tau also directly interface with their drones and can control them by thoughts. I will support this argument, with evidence from GW official material.


TAU ARMY LIST version 4.4 -
T’au Third Phase Expansion Force
Created by Jervis Johnson. Further development by Iain ‘CyberShadow’ Werry and Chris
‘JimmyGrill’ Reiter, with invaluable assistance from Tactica, Honda, Gary ’Nerroth’ Carney,
Steele, Jaldon, baronpiero - Trent Bartlem, Zac Belado, ‘Shmitty’, ‘Niyaz’, KivArn,
Woke_up_dead, Lion in the Stars, The Philosopher. Thanks to all of the other people that have
provided advice and comments on the Specialist Games Forums and EpiComms.

Good enough source for you? If you don't believe me you can follow this link here:
http://www.specialist-games.com/assets/tau_4_4.pdf


Vre’dai’katana completed the final pre-battle check-up of his huge XV8 Battlesuit. His twin-linked plasma rifles
were in perfect working order, as was his target lock and his hard-wired drone controller. His two Gun Drones
were already hovering close to him, twin-linked pulse carbines swivelling from left to right and up and down,
while Vre’dai‘katana commanded them around with simple orders articulated by thought impulses. He had
learned to use them as if they were his own limbs.

This bit was found on page 2.

That is directly word for word. It shows that the Tau have advanced interface between man (err... Tau) and machine. If that kind of interface is down to the common firewarrior, then it is widely available. So the interface between firewarriors and their equipment (battlesuits, drones, etc.) shows that they are more than capable of building it on a larger scale.

Also since the titans are essentially operator controlled robots, wouldn't the knowledge of robotics and other such things gained from battlesuits be pertinant to something on a larger scale? Sounds about right to me so I would say yes.

If the Tau adapts to technology fast, that means they can create something that starts off worse, gets better, and soon trumps what they went up against first. Reverse engineering too tends to help things a long. Finding weak points, or how the thing was built. It worked for the Americans when they happened to get a Soviet MIG of some type during the cold war. They totally took apart the machine and learned EVERYTHING about it, to the point where they told the pilots what they could expect performance wise from them, and how to beat them. It worked.

Also if they have the ability to make ships that are able to take on the Imperiums, and are on the same scale and such then they have the manufacturing industry and ability to produce something very large.

Finally the weaponry you seem to discount shows that they have the ability to make weaponry on a Titan scale. What is the point of having a giant robot if you can't arm it.


In the end I think this topic is blatant trolling as this will only end in arguments, trolling, people being unwilling to listen to one point of view or accept another point of view, and most likely flaming. I don't know why you think this is the most important debate on the internet, but it certainly seems like you are trying to make it so.

Aeolian
14-04-2008, 03:24
...Troll'd.

Iracundus
14-04-2008, 03:28
3.) Only recently they met Titans. First they were unprepared, then on Taros they made a surprise attack with flyers, next time the opponent might be prepared for this. With Apocalypse, the number of Titans in battles increases, and Earth caste has to come up with an alternative solution fighting them. Either a super heavy tank or a giant battle suit.

Actually that's not correct. The Tau first encountered Titans during the Damocles Crusade which occurred around the time of Hive Fleet Behemoth. They fielded Mantas immediately to deal with them and by the narrator POV accounts, they succeeded in countering or at the very least stalemating the Imperial Titans. The fielding of the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 first occurred during the Taros campaign which occurred just immediately prior to the 13th Black Crusade. That's a gap of about 200 years from Behemoth to 13th Black Crusade era, to create what amounts to a weapons refit of the Tiger Shark. While faster than the Imperium, this kind of development time for a refit does not support the idea of suddenly magicking up a new original Titan sized walker from scratch.

The overall feeling I'm getting from this is the same sort of feeling received when Space Marine players keep asking or trying to justify why their 1000 strong Chapter use Baneblades regularly despite them being are only available to Guard according to GW. Some armies just don't have or use what other armies have. Some other armies don't have super heavy flyers while the Tau do.

Adra
14-04-2008, 07:38
Tau seem to do ok without them. Obviously a determination was made not to build them but im sure some R&D went into it back on Tau. A titan is a terror weapon, apart from that its nothing special. You could just stick the big guns on something else. Guess thats how the tau see it.

Tiamat
14-04-2008, 07:53
Hmmm, Tau Titans. Can anybody say "Gundam Wing"?

Seriously, Tau fluff gives the impression of hyper manouvreability, air mobile or mechanised hunter cadres, seeking to take the whole as intact as possible, rather than obliterating everything that fights back, and then everything else for good measure.

Technologically, I'd say they probably could build something akind to a titan, but would it fit with their tactcal and strategic doctrine?
Air lifting a titan is a bit trickier than a hunter cadre and when one marches through town, there ain't much of a town left by the time its finished.

Dyrnwyn
14-04-2008, 08:55
It would have been nice if you made the new thread with a different subject than the other one. Something like "Tau capability of titan construction" or something.

In any case, I think you're SOL on this issue. There isn't any 'smoking gun' that would suggest they can build a Titan but keep in mind there is also no proof going the other way either. The fact that their battle doctrine revolves around mobility and thus eschews Titans in favor of heavy aircraft doesn't tell us that they can't build them, just that they don't want to put the effort into doing so.

There's plenty of anecdotal evidence that Tau could build a Titan. For power; They have engines powerful enough to power their various spacecraft and fighters. If those are insufficient, they do have a destroyed Warhound from Taros that they could reverse engineer the power core from, much as they reverse engineered warp drives. Between Jetpack technology, their anti-grav tanks and the gravitic engines on their spacecrafts, they're well-versed in the science of defying and manipulating gravity. It seems like rather than having a huge robot that moves it's arms with hydraulic servos or myomer 'muscles', they could support and move individual parts of the walker with antigrav and jets.

malika
14-04-2008, 09:10
http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137560

:rolleyes:

EDIT: sorry, I didn't really read through your first post! :(

DapperAnarchist
14-04-2008, 11:19
I think they could build one - but probably wouldn't. A Manta is faster anyway. It seems... clumsy. Not suited to hunting.

kikkoman
14-04-2008, 14:41
Anyone else imagining this as an argument between Fry and Char Aznable?

...



It seems... clumsy. Not suited to hunting.
exactly. It would not be a hunter
Tau flyers already provide mobility and firepower.
A Tau titan would have to do something heavy fliers cannot to justify its existence (other than looking cool)

so why would they make a Titan that acts like an oversized battlesuit? Thinking about the Tau, I figure they'd make a Titan to make up for a deficiency in their Apocalypse Epic Scale wars.

So some kinda giant walking fortress with guns far heavier than those fit on flyers. Say the Tau actually need to hold some vital area, defend a city from the Imperium, this sort of walking fortress with heavy shielding and heavy weapons could do what teams of smaller battlesuits or heavy fliers couldn't.

To use the Hunting analogy, heavy fliers hunt, then this Titan would be what protects the nest.

Visually, making them quadrapeds would set them apart from the Imperium.
Avoiding humanoid 'arms' and head would add to a heavy, armored appearance and set them apart
something like:
http://moviesmedia.ign.com/movies/image/appleseed_inline_1087846434.jpg
http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/images/appleseed01.jpg

Victomorga
14-04-2008, 15:06
bipedal weapons platforms are a terrible idea. they look cool, they're humanoid, they're all over many different sci-fi universes, but they're ridiculous. shoot out one leg, and they topple over.

the tau have advanced anti-grav technology. super-heavy hover tanks? ok. why not? but why walkers? it doesn't fit.

Tiamat
14-04-2008, 15:22
Kikkomans quadraped idea might work if Tau Titans were to be introduced. Anybody ever played Armoured Core 2 back on the PS2? That had some pretty cool designs. An evolution on that could be made to work, but again, my question is would it fit Tau tactical and strategic doctrine?

I actually got involved in the developement forum when somebody suggested a semi mobile field base for use in apocalypse. Basically just a floating fortress armed with starship grade weaponry that could land from orbit like a Manta but floated slowly round the battlefield like a monolith providing support functions like the orbital bombardment and commander centre strategic assets.

Not a Titan as such, but something close-ish.

Yarick Zan
14-04-2008, 15:48
I like the idea of a quad titan. It seems a whole lot more stable, and practical. It can also get into rough terrain easier because it uses those legs to steady it. I would also expect it to have a dorsal (that means on it's back) mounted turret of some kind. Also some kind of underslung weapon of some kind. That would make the most sense to me. It makes sense to use it in atmospheric conditions where flyers and skimmers are horribly impractical. In the end however it might just be better for them to make a super heavy tank. I either see them having a bipedal titan that is some sort of inspiring image that the Tau can rally around, or no titan at all. Super heavies might be the way to go, but that doesn't mean I don't like and don't support the idea of a Tau Titan.

Mad King George
14-04-2008, 15:56
someone built a tau titan on bolter and chainsword it kinda lookliekd a eldar reaverant titan

Firaxin
14-04-2008, 16:00
I stated several reasons in the other forum why it would not be feasible for tau. None of you bothered to respond to it, aside from those who agreed with me. Which gives the impression that you don't have and answer. Here it is again, or at least the excerpt concerning its feasibility:





Tanks - *Toughness* isn't what the game is about. Ask anyone who has faced well played Mech Tau what they about think Tau vehicles.
So, you ask for Fluff examples, but when you get shown up, you whine and go bring up an example of how effective tau tanks are in game, and not even that they're hard to kill. Well sorry. Apples to apples. Power armor is far slimer than a battlesuit, but grants the same save. Terminators are a closer size (but still smaller) and have a BETTER save. The point here is that a tau titan would have to be amazingly fat to have any sort of apreciable armor value and structure points. (Kinda like how iridium armor causes them to become slow and purposeful, eh?) And with that fatness, it becomes far harder to stabilize, which I'll adress below.



Walker tech - No race has the ability to field more or better walkers than the Tau. Marines can field at most six Dreadnoughts, whereas Tau can field 24 spread over Crisis and Broadsides. Point for point I'll take Tau walkers over those of any other race in the game.
Firstly, tau battlesuits are nothing like dreadnoughts, aside from the fact that they have a pilot, 2 arms and 2 legs. They can hardly even support the thing's weight on their legs, instead they use jump packs to move every where. Well, you can stick a jetpack on the back of anything the size of a titan without imbalancing it horribly (meaning you'd have to make the jetpack bigger...). So a walking tau titan would be a) an immensly large target, b) easy to imbalance/knock over (and it won't be getting up anytime soon, like old knights in shining armor), c) very very slow, and, d) as a consequence of the aforementioned problems, would be entirely against the tau doctrine and never even looked into.

A small, thinly armored titan with bulky legs seems more feasibly, but it would be something like AV10/10/10 and 1 structure point.

Captain Brown
14-04-2008, 17:44
Was there a point to this thread? It appears just a repeat of pointless arguments from this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137560).

Members are entitled to their own opinions, if someone does not agree with yours it is not your place to insist they do...especially over something as silly as their interpretation of the background. If I see any further accusations of 'handwavium' from any of you on the 'fictional' background and storylines I will issue you an infraction for trolling.

Thread Closed.

Captain Brown
WarSeer Inquisition